Perfecting 5c stax build

[Mox Sapphire]

What is everyone's opinion of the following cards in 5cc stax? These cards may or may not be deserving MD slots in the deck, but are controversial in whether they contribute to stax's goals  or distract from them. Here are my opinions:

Imperial Seal: Strange card. It's an inferior demonic, enlightened, and vamp. Is it worth having this over enlightened? Card disadvantage at sorcery speed sounds very sketchy despite Menendian's and other posters' support of this card in stax.

Library of Alexandria: This card sucks in 5cc stax. Stax often throws down its hand in most of its games, and it cannot afford to hold cards back. Slowest draw engine ever.

Null Rod: Sucks. Shuts off your mana. Good in uba stax, but sucks in 5cc.

Tangle Wire: Weakest lock, but shuts off mana drain. I'm unsure of whether or not this deserves a MD slot.

Engineered Explosives: Strong card, not sure if it deserves MD slot.

Swords to Plowshares: Seems necessary to stop decks like Oath and annoying aggro.

Gorilla Shaman: Is 2x or 1x good in this stax build? I like 2, but I'm not sure if I'd want to trade one of the slots for a lock component.

Sundering Titan: This card sucks without thirst.

Thirst for Knowledge: This card sucks in stax.

Razormane Masticore: Without an active welder, this card sucks.

Seal of Cleansing: Strong card; with Oath being active again in the metagame, this seems like a solid choice for MD.

Defense Grid: Stops counter threats, but is not really a lock, and doesn't do anything in the mirror. Not sure about this one.

Rack and Ruin: Very strong against the stax mirror. I have 2 of these in my SB already. Might be worth considering running MD depending on the metagame. Not sure if I want to run it MD though in place of a lock piece.

Karn: This card has always been strong in 5cc. I always auto-include him.

If anyone has any experience with the following cards, please share. My goal is to figure out which cards are deserving of solid MD slots, and which are inferior or SB material only. It seems like with the vast number of card choices available for stax, there are some difficult decisions to make. If anyone has different cards to add to this list, please do so as well.

[Whatever Works]

I was going to keep this as tech, but I found 5c Stax to boring to play on a consistent basis.

I have had amazing success with Dark Confidant as a 2-3 of in the deck. Its a kill condition that draws cards, and prevents the typical downfall of 5c stax the dreaded 10 turns of doing nothing but drawing lands/moxes/CoTV's... and then eventually losing whatever strength of a lock you had on the game.

In all my testing with it I have never died to confidant from damage even when unlucky. Based on the math I have done its about the same as damage every other turn from a mana crypt... accept it draws cards and wins the game... Also, if confidant does get you low on life you can always find a way to sacrafice it to smokestack, or kill it with barbarian ring.

You can say omg you take 4 from flipping over smokestack etc. But the deck does run about 27-28 mana sources typically, and losing 0 life to cycle through them is great. Confidant wins the mirror matchup, and is a beast vs. control by helping you not stall, and by forcing your opponent to have to choose between killing your confidant at the risk of you laying down shaman and blowing up their board.

I guess darkblast is good vs. it, but its still a 1 for 1 trade, and card disadvantage for them if they want to waste rescources that should be trying to help them win being forced to deal with a pesky creature.

5c stax is amazing deck, but just to boring for me (even with confidant).

[Bram]

Imperial Seal: Strange card. It's an inferior demonic, enlightened, and vamp. Is it worth having this over enlightened? Card disadvantage at sorcery speed sounds very sketchy despite Menendian's and other posters' support of this card in stax.

I agree, and am unsure as well. My build runs enoug nonartifact bombs to legitimise a second Vampiric, as resolbving this card often ends the game.
 

Library of Alexandria: This card sucks in 5cc stax. Stax often throws down its hand in most of its games, and it cannot afford to hold cards back. Slowest draw engine ever.

Agreed. LoA is justy horrible in here and should not even be considered. Antisynergy all over the place.

Null Rod: Sucks. Shuts off your mana. Good in uba stax, but sucks in 5cc.

Indeed. There's no reason at all you want to use Null Rod.

Tangle Wire: Weakest lock, but shuts off mana drain. I'm unsure of whether or not this deserves a MD slot.

Same here. I tend to tun Tangle Wire over Chalice if I expect a lot of aggro. In that case, I WILL have chalices in the board, which I'll side in almost always (over Wire) of I'm in the play in game 2.

Engineered Explosives: Strong card, not sure if it deserves MD slot.

I doubt it does. It's perfectly fine card, but simply inferior to the other removal you have, and you can't really offord to cut lock components.

Swords to Plowshares: Seems necessary to stop decks like Oath and annoying aggro.

Everyone keeps telling me how bad a MD STP is. Theoretically, I'd agree, were it not for the fact thatit won me SO many random games...

Gorilla Shaman: Is 2x or 1x good in this stax build? I like 2, but I'm not sure if I'd want to trade one of the slots for a lock component.

Yes, you want two. It's basically your only shot in hell vs. stuff like CS. And no, you don't want to lose lock components. I've cut the 4th welder for a second mox monkey, even.

Sundering Titan: This card sucks without thirst.

It pretty much sucks overall. I'm having no trouble at all killing my opponent's manabase without it. I usually opt for a Duplicant in a meta where I expect lots of DSC (which is basically always). On a gloomier note, no situations come to mind where Duplicant actually did soemthing for me, either. I think I'ma cut it.

Thirst for Knowledge: This card sucks in stax.

Yes. You need blue plus two non-shop mana. This is often a problem. However, stuff like Compulsive Research doesn't solve that problem. You needdome form of draw in the deck...efficient cheap artifact based draw or cheap filter, I guess. I haven't found anything better than TFK.

Razormane Masticore: Without an active welder, this card sucks.

Oh, I disagree. This doesn't belong in the maindeck ofcourse, but it's SO solid in the board, you wouldn't believe it. If you can play this turn one versus aggro, they just roll over and die. Your whole gameplan changes ofcourse, but who cares about that when you're winning?

Seal of Cleansing: Strong card; with Oath being active again in the metagame, this seems like a solid choice for MD.

I've had a Seal in the MB for a while. It's solid, but I cut it again in favor of an STP.

Defense Grid: Stops counter threats, but is not really a lock, and doesn't do anything in the mirror. Not sure about this one.

Eh, haven't tested this. It seems weak, at best.

Rack and Ruin: Very strong against the stax mirror. I have 2 of these in my SB already. Might be worth considering running MD depending on the metagame. Not sure if I want to run it MD though in place of a lock piece.

Viashino Heretic is just plain better.

Karn: This card has always been strong in 5cc. I always auto-include him.

Seconded.

[Mox Sapphire]

I will never run less than 4x chalice of the void and 3x crucible. I am taking into heavy consideration yawg will. Right now, my colored bombs are:

1 Balance
1 Tinker
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
1 Crop Rotation

Basically, the most broken stuff of every color. I have found no need for imperial seal.

[Bram]

I have the same setup except for Will, which I almost certainly want to include.

[Mox Sapphire]

I thought you said you ran imperial seal as well.

[49 Cents]

Seal finds Strip Mine. Enlightened does not. This is the main reason to include it.

[Bram]

I thought you said you ran imperial seal as well.

No, I said I agreed that it was sketchy. I'm currently not, but I'm leaning towards running it, however.

[vroman]

Imperial Seal: YES
Library of Alexandria: NO
Null Rod: NO
Tangle Wire: NO
Engineered Explosives: NO (you should always be concerned about null rod)
Swords to Plowshares: MAYBE (oath is really becoming the deck to beat, but this competes for slot w darkblast, and recursion is better than undercosted)
Gorilla Shaman: YES
Sundering Titan: NO
Thirst for Knowledge: NO
Razormane Masticore: YES (I dont lose when this guy resolves)
Seal of Cleansing: NO (ray of revelation + card advantage artifact kill is better)
Defense Grid: MAYBE (REB is more versatile, but not if you are in a chalice @ 1 prime match)
Rack and Ruin: NO (heretic brings shop decks to grinding halt)
Karn: YES (remember null rod though)

[Mox Sapphire]

Why are three tutors necessary?

[JDawg13]

Why are three tutors necessary?

It seems that Vroman and others require the use of three tutors since they aren't running a draw engine, so they need to rely on tutors finding exactly what they need to set up a hard lock before allowing the opponent any time to catch up.  Imperial Seal is still really good and probably necessary even if you ARE running a draw engine, as Stax can win much easier when it has access to any card it needs, but it seems to become far more crucial without a draw engine.

[Mox Sapphire]

Other than meditate and thirst, what other draw engines are there? So basically you are forced into running an inferior vamp.

And bring? I've cut this card long ago in favor of the 4th gemstone mine.

[JDawg13]

Other than meditate and thirst, what other draw engines are there? So basically you are forced into running an inferior vamp.

There's not really any good draw engines besides those two, which is why a lot of people are cutting them, as they are fairly mana-intensive and don't really do much.  If you're looking for an alternate, Whatever Works suggested Dark Confidant just a few posts ago; you could give him a try.  Also, the fact that Seal is "an inferior Vamp" isn't really THAT important.  Needing to cast it on your main phase isn't really that much of a drawback, as what you need probably isn't going to change between now and next turn.  Setting up a lock is the most important goal, and Seal helps you do that.

And bring? I've cut this card long ago in favor of the 4th gemstone mine.

I've actually been running all four Gemstones and a Barbarian Ring with no problems at all.  I don't see them being mutually exclusive.

[sean1i0]

I've been testing out Sensei's Diving Top since it was briefly mentioned in this thread.  The card seems to be pretty good in the deck, even without the shuffle effects (which was my main concern at first).  I started off testing 3, but I think I need to cut the number down to 2, since you just never want to draw more than one; I've found myself doing that way too often.  I think that I'll probably cut the 3rd top for an imperial seal, which could provide some interesting synergies.

[vroman]

you need the excessive generic tutor power primarily to find stripmine the majority of time and academy in the stax mirror when theres mutual crucible lock going.

[Mox Sapphire]

Creatures:

4 welder, 2 shaman, 1 trike, 1 karn, 1 razmormane

Locks:

3 COW, 4 chalice, 4 smokey, 4 sphere of resistance, 1 3sphere

Tutors and bombs:

yawg will, demonic, vampiric, balance, swords to plowshares, ancestral, NO TIME WALK, crop rotation (this is why there is no need for imperial seal)

Mana:

lotus, 5 mox, 1 crypt, 1 sol, 1 mana vault, 3 waste (should I have 4th waste?), 1 strip, 1 b ring (questionable), 4 gemstone, 4 city, 4 workshop

[MoxMonkey]

Your list is only 58 cards.  You need 4 Watselands, and most likly you should run Imperial Seal so it looks like
4 Goblin Welder
2 Shaman
1 triskelion
1 Karn
1 razermane masticore
3 Crucible fo Worlds
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Smoke
1 Trinisphere
1 Yawg Will
1 Demonic
1 vamp
1 Imperial
1 Crop  rotation
1 Ancestral
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 mana Vault
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of brass
4 Mishra's Workshop

You want as many Tutors as you can fit i nthe deck.  You cut Draw power from the deck so you have to make it up with having your topdecks set and being able to find what you need/want Now.

[Zomar]

Your list is only 58 cards.  You need 4 Watselands, and most likly you should run Imperial Seal so it looks like
4 Goblin Welder
2 Shaman
1 triskelion
1 Karn
1 razermane masticore
3 Crucible fo Worlds
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Smoke
1 Trinisphere
1 Yawg Will
1 Demonic
1 vamp
1 Imperial
1 Crop  rotation
1 Ancestral
1 Swords to plowshares
1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 mana Vault
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of brass
4 Mishra's Workshop

You want as many Tutors as you can fit i nthe deck.  You cut Draw power from the deck so you have to make it up with having your topdecks set and being able to find what you need/want Now.

Those are some mighty useful goblin welders.

[Machinus]

Why doesn't every list run 4 crucible? Is it because the list is too tight, or that the increased probability of drawing it isn't worth drawing two of them? Crucible is a good target for countering or destroying.

[MoxMonkey]

Welders help recover from a Rack and Ruin or can help rebuild after that super secret tech of Seeds of Innocence.  They are very good and can be boarded out Game 2 to bring in hate.  Welders also Anwser that DSC guy that everyone and their Mom is using.  They do come in handy when you think outside of the box.

[Zomar]

Welders help recover from a Rack and Ruin or can help rebuild after that super secret tech of Seeds of Innocence.

Okay so they allow you to bring back lock pieces game 2-3. Looks like they are pretty dead game one.

They are very good and can be boarded out Game 2 to bring in hate.

Wait.. I thought they let you recover from artifact destruction? Oh I see, they are boarded out against combo because they are dead game one.

Welders also Anwser that DSC guy that everyone and their Mom is using.

True, but what doesn't answer DSC. That reason alone isn't justification for them, as there are more versitile cards that remove DSC.

They do come in handy when you think outside of the box.

So what was your reason why there are four mainboard?

[Smmenen]

Imperial Seal: I used to think undoubtedly yes.  But I'm not only mostly certain. 
Library of Alexandria: Pretty weak.  I suppose I can see it, but I would have to test it alot - and the answer is still probably no.  I think it would be better in some stax variants than others.
Null Rod: Highly build dependent.  But an option.  It is the most powerful prison component in the game.  I think you can use this card if you have the correct mana base for it.
Tangle Wire: I think its probably the wrong call.
Engineered Explosives: I HATE this card in stax.  Please please please do not play this shit.
Swords to Plowshares: With all the tutors and balance, there is no reason to run this card.
Gorilla Shaman: Very powerful. 
Sundering Titan: Too expensive
Thirst for Knowledge: I'm not sure.
Razormane Masticore: How is this guy good?  He seems like shit to me.
Seal of Cleansing: Metagame dependent.  I think it is more powerful than people give it credit for.  I discovered this first hand.  I would probably run two.   
Defense Grid: I think this card is pretty shitty through and through.  Definately not.
Rack and Ruin: Why?
Karn: Sigh.  Probably. 

I think the biggest question is:

GOBLIN WELDER??  Yea or nea?

And
Chalice?  Yea or Nea?

I don't think those two cards are even easily resolved. 

I'm going to stick with something I've said before.  I think that Stax needs to have a certain number of cards it can play on turn one without Mishra's Workshop to be viable. 

The discussion is also highly suspect because there is zero analysis about matchups and in game plays. 

You can't possibly understand stax or build a proper stax list unless you are talking with more specificity regarding what the metagame you are attempting to answer looks like. 

If I were to play Stax, here is probably what it would look like:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Diamond

4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Smokestack
4 Sphere Of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Crucible Of Worlds

3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Seal Of Cleansing

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Karn, Silver Golem

1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Cards that I want to test again:
Darkblast
Pithing Needle - which I suddenly have new respect for after GP Philly
Other Dredge cards

Vroman is completely wrong about Seal of Cleansing.   This deck murders its mana base.  Seal of Cleansing is awesome because it can hit play and remove Null Rod before Rod resolves.  Seal of Cleansing owns the Stax mirror if used right.

[Machinus]

Goblin Welder makes cards like Tangle Wire and Thirst for Knowledge better. If you want to include one of these components, you have to consider running all of the cards with higher synergy. Non-Uba Welder stax and Non-Welder stax are very different decks.

[MoxMonkey]

Also, they let you recover from Mana Drains and force of Wills.  I shouldn't have to say anymore than that.  I also never siad I boarded them all out I board 1-2 out depending on the matchup to bring in better hate cards also this isn't my list I use a completly different list when testing with or against Stax.  I was working from a list posted before.

[Smmenen]

Why should more crucibles be added? I do not understand. Why the sudden inclusion of null rods in almost every build? I have found this to be quite disruptive to my own plan. Why no karn? Why only 3 wastelands?

These pieces of advice all go against conventional wisdom. Someone please explain.

In my view, the best lock is Crucible + Stax - not Wire + Welder + Stax.  You can have a Crucible in play and nothing else and win off that alone. 

[MoxMonkey]

Thats true Crucible allows the deck to win off it but with 3 you are able to find it before turn 3 almost every game but in a metagame full of Mirrors and Fish i would ru nthe 4th Crucible as well.

[Smmenen]

Goblin Welder is not an automatic inclusion for lots of reasons.   Anyone who asks about the absence of Goblin Welder should have this question asked of them: What is it that you are Welding back? What is it that you are using Goblin Welder for?

Think about that. What is it that you are welding back?

Let's analyze:

1) Sphere of Resistence?  First of all, your opponent is very unlikey to counter a Sphere unless it is a 3sphere.

2) Crucible?  People tend not to counter Crucible for reasons you cited wasteland as poor.

3) Chalice?  Welding in Chalice for 0?  Doubtful

The only real card to weld is Smokestack unless you are playing Uba Stax or Tangle Wire.  OR Unless you run Thirst.

I'm going to ask you: what are you welding back?  Because the only thing is probably Smokestack.  So you are going to eat up four slots in your deck with a 1/1 creature that everyone is hating out for the sole purpose of welding back a Smokestack - something you may or may not even see within the first few turns?  So you are going to sit on a 1/1 goblin that does nothing for a few turns? 


Mox Diamond is a minature fastbond in this deck that is a recurring and powerful mana source because it gives you all five colors.

Take this opening hand:

Gemstone Mine
City of Brass
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Imperial Seal
Sphere of Resistence
Gorilla Shaman

Look what you can do with that Mox Diamond.  You turn the Gemstone Mine into a stable, solid mana source immediately.  You can then play two threats on turn one: Sphere + Shaman or Shaman and Seal or Sphere and Seal.   

EDIT:

Mox Diamond

Advantages:
a) a five color mana source.  This permits you to play multiple threats quickly.  You can have spells like Vamp, Shaman, Chains of Mephistophes, Choke, IN the Eye of Chaos, Seal of Cleansing, Balance, Crop Rotation, and never be upset about seeing Mox Diamond if you have lands.

b) a mana accellerant.  Helps speed out Stax and is a stable source under Spheres

c) is amazing in the opening hand - has synergy with Balance and Crucible.  Your deck often has an extra land you are comfortable pitching

Drawbacks:
a) gets worse and worse as you mulligan.  A hand of five with mox diamond is really a hand of four.

b) is a nonplayable topdeck alot of the time

Now, the argument that it isn't good if it isn't in your opening hand is partially true, but that must be weighed against the benefits you derive when it IS in your opening hand. 

[Bram]

In my view, the best lock is Crucible + Stax - not Wire + Welder + Stax.

This is very true.

Think about that. What is it that you are welding back?

Rarely anthing, really. Welder is primarily used to perfor the old switcharoo with your opponents'  artifacts, which hardly seems good enough. I needed to make room in my build, and cut the 4th Welder to make room for the second Shaman, which is far, far better. I've even gone on record stating that ' Welder sucks in stax'.

Another important question is the TFK situation. We all agree it's pretty bas as it's nigh uncastable, but can we really cut it for more lock components or do we need to replace it? I'm currently looking into [card]Strategic Planning[/card] as a replacement. Initial testing is promising. The fact that it's a sorcery is unimportant in Stax as you basically never play anything besires Vamp on your opponents' EOT anyway. The reduced Welder sunergy is not a problem for reason stated above (Welders suck and I only run 3 anyway). The 1 mana makes a helluva difference. I'd love to have some artifact-based draw in here. If only [card]Bottle Cloister[/card] cost 3....at 4 it's probably too expensive (allthough it has performed miracles for me at times).

[Machinus]

Another important question is the TFK situation. We all agree it's pretty bas as it's nigh uncastable, but can we really cut it for more lock components or do we need to replace it? I'm currently looking into [card]Strategic Planning[/card] as a replacement. Initial testing is promising. The fact that it's a sorcery is unimportant in Stax as you basically never play anything besires Vamp on your opponents' EOT anyway. The reduced Welder sunergy is not a problem for reason stated above (Welders suck and I only run 3 anyway). The 1 mana makes a helluva difference. I'd love to have some artifact-based draw in here. If only [card]Bottle Cloister[/card] cost 3....at 4 it's probably too expensive (allthough it has performed miracles for me at times).

I am struggling with TfK as well. Strategic Planning is a great idea, however. Have you tested Thoughtcast?

[Juggernaut GO]

goblin lore is like the new thirst for knowledge.  and it costs 1 less,   every stax deck should run 4...