Perfecting 5c stax build

[Fantaman]

I saw some lists and actually in italy this broken list it's not bad!

My list:

Lock06 Enea Salvaderi

Mana Base (27):
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid or 1 Ancient Tomb ( better ancient tomb for the first turn )
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Wasteland ( yes it's strange to play only 3 of them but in italy there are many many Gift deck with a strong mana base, TPS combo or T1T Colossus deck )  Lot of decks play with 4 or 5 islands....! Wastelands are junk sometimes...!
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

Draw cards (3):
1 Ancestral recall
2 Thirst for Knowledge

Mind Cretures (5):
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder ( this deck needs 4 of them...it's not a C.Slavery....!!!!!!!! )

Lock & Stock (17):
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Words
3 Chalice of the Void ( Impossible to play without 3 of them main deck )

Evil Creature (3):
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Silver Golem
1 Triskelion ( depends from the meta... but probably this deck need one trisky main deck )

Tutors (4):
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker

Solutions (1):
1 Balance

Total: 60 Cards

This deck have a solution for every problem and many many cards for broke the opponent
game !!! Side it's a choice, you have to know very well tournaments where you are playing
and witch decks are in the meta!

SIDEBOARD:
2 Tormod's Crypt: against y.will decks...so every deck...!
2 Seal of Cleasing: mirror match and mono artifact!
1 Jester Cup or 1 Duplicant
3 Swords to Plowsher: Fish, Wu tang, aggro, Tinker Colossus!
1 Maze of Ith: Yes it's an idea... this is a big problem for Tinker Colossus Decks!
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Choke: Great against U decks...! Gift peraps!
3 Pyroblast or 3 In the Eye of Chaos...it's game against lot of decks: Gift, Control Slavery, Tps.

Thanx all!

The problem in Italy is that every guy who have WORKSHOPS plays UNPOWERED mono artifact decks with Metalworker/Skullclamp/Arcbound Ravager/Myr!!!!

So There are only 2 professional players ( me and another guy ) who try to play PENTA STAX. Results are not so bad but in italy is very very difficult win with this deck. (You know 2 Penta Staxx on a tournament of 80 or 100 players...are not sooo much )

Me and another guy sometimes play with this deck but is not to easy !!!!

Thanx all

[vroman]

theres a lot of tactical problems w this list, but I will just make one point. these days especially Id never run less than 4 wastelands in welder-stax. darkblast is going to be a real obstacle, however since no one plays swamps, in order to generate black mana consistently, ppl are going to be more dependent on underground sea or city of brass. more nonbasics are going to be played, and wasteland is getting stronger in the meta, even if welder is getting weaker.

[Fantaman]

theres a lot of tactical problems w this list, but I will just make one point. these days especially Id never run less than 4 wastelands in welder-stax. darkblast is going to be a real obstacle, however since no one plays swamps, in order to generate black mana consistently, ppl are going to be more dependent on underground sea or city of brass. more nonbasics are going to be played, and wasteland is getting stronger in the meta, even if welder is getting weaker.

Hi Vroman, yes it's right your opinion that every darkblast will be played with Underground Sea ( non basic land  but city of brass it's only played in penta stax...in the professional meta ) but it's really strong this list I think because:

- you can play another big big big land the first turn for have more mana to cast a smoke or a chalice (one) or a sphere.

I'm choosing to play Ancient Tomb and only 3 wastelands because normally Pro Players in Vintage doesn't fetch on Underground Sea the first turns of the match. Welders is really strong and sometimes it's only a Trick for cast after your opponent has made Force of Will... another bomb like Wire or Smoke.
4 welders in the staxx are essential things.

Yes darkblast is growing and welder are weak but I think that now it's time to play only 3 wastelands.

Only my opinion. 

Thanx Vroman for your reply!

[49 Cents]

First of, what is PentaStaxx? Why is this better then Uba or 'regular' 5c staxx?

Second, I would never play with less then 4 Wastelands. Sure, you can't ALWAYS kill a land with it, but you can still tap it for mana and it can simply win you games. Paying 1 mana more to a SoR is a lot when your lands are being cut off..

[Fantaman]

First of, what is PentaStaxx? Why is this better then Uba or 'regular' 5c staxx?

Penta Staxx is the italian 5C staxx... excuse me for my terms. 

---

Second, I would never play with less then 4 Wastelands. Sure, you can't ALWAYS kill a land with it, but you can still tap it for mana and it can simply win you games. Paying 1 mana more to a SoR is a lot when your lands are being cut off..

Yes wastelands in these months are not sooo nice against every deck ( gift or tps or others ) that normally play 5 island...
This is my point... I decide to play an Ancient Tomb ( yes it's heavy for life points ) to support more speed the first two turns!!! It can give me mana for my spheres like wasteland...or it can help me to cast: thirst of knowledge... remember workshop doesn't do it...!

Try it... and tell me how do u think!

Thanx for your helps! 

[Komatteru]

An untapped Wasteland or threat of an additional Wasteland can often change the perspective on the game.  Let's say Slaver wants to cast Demonic Tutor (say for Ancestral Recall at this point in the game) and has an unused fetchland on the board with no other black sources.  Wasteland turns Underground Sea into a Lotus Petal, which is something that might really hurt Slaver at that point in the game (can it afford to lose a land?).  The Wasteland really gives Slaver a choice between losing a land to play Demonic Tutor or not playing Demonic Tutor at all right now.  The question is, which is better right now: drawing 3 cards at the cost of a mana source, or keeping the land.  With a lessened threat of Wasteland, the choice is much easier: drawing 3 cards seems like the better way to go, especially if the opponent only has 2 Wastelands remaining in his deck.  With 3 Wastelands remaining, it's a a much harder decision to make.

I would likely play 5 or 6 Wastelands if I could in Stax.

[49 Cents]

Thirsts suck. They cost too much and can't be payed with Workshop. Have you ever tested with Sensei's Divining Top? They are great, plus when you run 4 Welders you can tap it to draw a card and then Welder it out for something different which is great. I would strongly advice testing it, then you might find that you do not need the Tomb anymore..

[Fantaman]

Mmh Cool! Sensei seems to be nice. Thanx 49 Cents.

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I saw that you have very very tested Staxx against Slaver.... normally in italy SLAYER it's only played with 2 colors and not sooo much player play it.

I saw that every player have FEAR of slaver...in U.S.  ehhehe

Now it's a really played deck in your meta? Slayer UBR?

JDizzle your example of Wastelands are made between Staxx and Slaver....?!?!? possible that your meta is full of Slaver decks?

Thanx and excuse-me I don't wanna go OT.

[Komatteru]

An untapped Wasteland or threat of an additional Wasteland can often change the perspective on the game.  Let's say Gifts wants to cast Demonic Tutor (say for Ancestral Recall at this point in the game) and has an unused fetchland on the board with no other black sources.  Wasteland turns Underground Sea into a Lotus Petal, which is something that might really hurt Gifts at that point in the game (can it afford to lose a land?).  The Wasteland really gives Gifts a choice between losing a land to play Demonic Tutor or not playing Demonic Tutor at all right now.  The question is, which is better right now: drawing 3 cards at the cost of a mana source, or keeping the land.  With a lessened threat of Wasteland, the choice is much easier: drawing 3 cards seems like the better way to go, especially if the opponent only has 2 Wastelands remaining in his deck.  With 3 Wastelands remaining, it's a a much harder decision to make.

Are you satisfied now?  Or do you want me to list an example FOR EVERY DECK IN THE FORMAT?

[Fantaman]

  ops I hurt you....

I know very well that wastelands are sooo strong and your first example make a right way on these topic...but probably wastelands against
Gift or C.Slavery sucks. 5 Islands are tooo much!

islands are so strong against Staxx.

It's only my opinion JDizzle!

[Vegeta2711]

ops I hurt you....

I know very well that wastelands are sooo strong and your first example make a right way on these topic...but probably wastelands against
Gift or C.Slavery sucks. 5 Islands are tooo much!

islands are so strong against Staxx.

It's only my opinion JDizzle!

Appearantly you completely missed his point. He's saying you can cut off the off-color mana sources from some decks and that it changes how they make decisions against you. Guess what? It means Wasteland IS still strong against those types of decks.

Of course hey, if they aren't good there... may as well just cut them.

[Fantaman]

I understand all. Thanx.

 

[vroman]

to get the discussion back on track, here are some thoughts I had recently about 5cstax

the primary reason to stretch to 5c for stax is in order to cram as many restricted cards as possible into the deck. however, a large portion of those cards are as broken as they are, due to only costing 1 mana. adding key components like welder and monkey, and the dependence on 1-costers becomes a major weakness, bc they cant really afford to play chalice @ 1 wo cutting off a wide chunk of their most potent cards. this leaves them w either chalice @ 0, or chalice > 1. C@0 is only broken turn 1 on the play, and C>2+ is another expensive lock, which is not what you want to be forced to do w chalice the majority of the time. thus bottomline, 5C stax really cant even effectively play chalice, the best early disruption since 4xtrisphere roamed. not good. it turns out laplante and chang were right, chalice doesnt belong main in 5c stax, or necesarily at all. however, this is not bc chalice is in any way weak, but bc 5cstax lists are not designed well enough to smoothly implement this top tier disruption.
furthermore, the lists are just too damn clogged. playing brokeness into more brokeness is only meaningful if you end up w threats on the board you can actually cast. the synergy that occurs in 5cstax is more accidental than deliberate. everybody knows the mana in that deck is shitty. laplante tried to address this issue w a novel spin on the deck, and I salute his attention to mana as the primary raison d'etre for any deck.
to cut down on the number of color requirements and improve lock synergy Ive been casually thinking about revitalizing old ideas in the form of hypothetical 3Cstax, running UBR based on fetchlands and duals, rather than ranibows. city of brass damage can be ruinous, if drawn in multiples as the primary mana. for example, an opening hand of say, [3xbrass, chalice, ancestral, 2xblank] is definitely a keeper, but the pain becomes dangerous fast, assuming you are properly tapping out every turn to lay threats. although vintage decks eagerly trade life for other resources, it cant be taken for granted. for example, Ive found my current R-ubastax build loses more to oath pre-board now, than it did before I played full b-rings, simply bc the liklihood of dealing 2 damage to myself greatly increased, such that the usual active oath clock dropped from 3 turns to 2. w oath lists evolving w increasing power, an opposing deck that can keep itself at 19+ life, and still operate peakly, effectively gets a free Time Walk in that match up. not many good vintage decks are designed w this guideline in mind, and although the life total significance v oath is a narrow case, the principle of staying alive is fairly important against all decks that win via damage. thus brass is obv avoidable if painless lands can support the decks requirements.
gemstone mine is also weak, due to the intentional permanent loss. goes directly against the stax rulebook. there really arent any truly good rainbow lands; ice bridge and glimmervoid arent even worth considering. cutting G and W, loses Balance, fbond, and cropper; plus choke and maybe ray of revelation and sacred ground out of the board. yes these are awesome cards, but in deck design, mana base is most important. Duals and fetches are very stable compared to brass and gemstone. being able to sit on a fetch against enemy wastland, until needed, is a strong tactic; plus card advantage of fetch+crucible.

and be sure to play time walk.

[Jacob Orlove]

One of the real advantages of a fetchland mana base like this one, was that I got to use Divining Top, because the fetches give you real shuffle effects.

[Juggernaut GO]

I've come to the conclusion that I hate goblin welders from now on, so I sold my foil set and made a new stax list for you all to fool around with:

4 mishras workshop
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
3 bloodstained mire
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 taiga
2 badlands
1 library of alexandria
5 moxes
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt

2 gorilla shaman
1 karn silver golem

1 demonic tutor
3 crucible of worlds
2 sensei divining top
4 sphere of resistance
1 balance
1 vamp tutor
3 tangle wire
1 yawgmoths will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 minds eye
1 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 smokestack
1 fastbond
1 crop rotation

Try that if you want to run fetch+divining top

[rureddy31]

Welders are too good not to cut. They sometime steal games, and the prvoide that nice hard lock with tanglewires. Mind's Eye seems a little weak to me, but honestly, I ain't too familiar with Stax...

[MoxMonkey]

Juggernaut wheres the savage Monkey cage action?
Anyways I really think that list is awesome and Mind's eye is really solid in NE for stax to be running since its good against Control.  I like Sensei's Top and I guess its better than trying to throw a million tutors into the deck.  I would like to see a 4th Fetch land but the mana base looks really tight since you need the random duals to help fix the mana coloring issues.  Anything that Chailce could become if you were to not run them? or they a key part to that build? 
Badlands in T1 What is going on.   :shock:

[Fantaman]

welders are the life of artifact deck!

mind's eye....The mono copy I think it's not good ....this deck requires 2 or 3 copy of it!
If you decide to draw....1 of that card it's not soo much...

mhm have you tested Bottled Cloister?
Seems to be nice!

Byez

[Smmenen]

For a statistical analysis of Stax and a composite of the most winning five color stax lists from July to October, check out this article:  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10983.html

[vroman]

re: minds eye, bottled cloister, memory jar, grafted skullcap, moonring mirror (sick w bazaar btw), or [any other 4+ cost card drawer artifact].

this kind of card does not disrupt opponent, and are all severely overcosted. avoid. uba mask is disruption + draw engine, thus playable.

Im testing a UBR stax deck w fetch/top lately. Im playing singlton bazaar (deck misses cropper for sure). sensei has awesome synergy w bazaar. I can effectively Impulse 3 cards deep every turn for 1 mana, even w an empty hand. bazaar = always good.

[Smmenen]

The original Stax list in modern vintage used a fetchland mana base with White and black!

From my original 2003 Stax article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5273.html


For reference, here is Kaul's List:

// Mana base
1 Badlands
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
2 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

// Draw and tutors
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Meditate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

// The lock
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Goblin Welder

// Broken
1 Balance

// Kill
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion

// Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
3 Bottle Gnomes
3 Fire / Ice
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast

Clearly, that mana base is extremely old, but Kevin, Matthieu and I ran something close to it - basicaly just that sans white - for a long time.

If you add black to black in Stax you can get Seal, DT, Darkblast, Vamp, Yawg Will.  I think i'd rather run it

Rbgw and just not have any blue.  Blue just gives you Tinker, Ancestral, and Walk.  White gives you balance, green gives you Rotation, and black gives you what I've already said.   

[Twaun007]

I have been toying around with stax for about 2 months now and this is the information that I have gathered. The basic skeleton of a stax deck is now Workshop, CoW, and Smoke Stack.

With fetch lands you have to cut Sundering titan = -1 win condition
With null rod you have to cut Karn = -1 win condition
With null rod you might have to cut trike = -1 win condition
With no welders = -2,3,4, win conditions(we have all seen welder go all the way)
Uba mask = no synergy with 5c stax
Uba stax = no tutoring
Razormane is a side board card basically vs aggro = no win condition in the md
Duplicant is for ubs stax, since uba is running more welders = no win condition for 5c stax
Tangle wire is on the fence, for 5c stax
The number of Gorilla shaman's up in the air
March of the machines is weak, but not bad in a null rod enviorment
Even chalice is up in the air

In reality all this information adds up to is that stax decks needs to be tuned for a proper metagame. All in all there is not one stax list is better than the other. With that in mind it would be up to the pilot of the deck to make metagame calls and decide what type of win conditions and disruption pieces would be played.

 The biggest problem I see is the number of win conditions since a Jesters cap or a rootwater thief can own you like know other.
 

[Buttons]

Jester's Cap or Rootwater Thief doesn't hurt Stax for a few reasons:

1)  5c Stax, if it doesn't play with Trisk, Karn, or Titan, (which is rare,) at least plays with Welders.  That's a win condition, albeit weak.  B-ring is also in there under alot of builds.
2)  Welder can weld out Jester's Cap before your opponent can activate it, and really, if they get six mana via some other way of double workshop, have you been doing your job?
3)  Ubastax runs 4 Welder, 2 Duplicant, and 4 B-rings.  (although it's going through an evolution right now).
4)  Rootwater Thief gets owned by Balance, or Tinker-Trisk, Trisk, you know, whatever really.

[Liam-K]

I really feel that chalice is one of the strongest cards in stax.  Chalice at zero can be strong even after turn 1, and chalice at 1 hurts a control deck much more than it hurts you under spheres.  Chalices at 2 and 3 can be situationally key when you need to shore up a weakness to bounce or brokenness in your board position.  I've seen people play it wrong, and I've seen people play it right, there is a lot of difference.  Chalice kicks gifts in the nuts, and has crazy synergy with sphere abuse.

[Buttons]

I really feel that chalice is one of the strongest cards in stax.  Chalice at zero can be strong even after turn 1, and chalice at 1 hurts a control deck much more than it hurts you under spheres.  Chalices at 2 and 3 can be situationally key when you need to shore up a weakness to bounce or brokenness in your board position.  I've seen people play it wrong, and I've seen people play it right, there is a lot of difference.  Chalice kicks gifts in the nuts, and has crazy synergy with sphere abuse.

Agreed, however, the reason 5c Stax doesn't run Chalice maindeck (or rather, most builds don't,) is because Chalice set at 1 is detrimental to you (albeit not as much as other decks,) as well as chalice for two.

Playing Ubastax, for instance, Chalice set at 1 just takes out your Welders.  That's it.  Chalice for 2 takes out your null rods, which you can weld in, and, of course, which you should already have down.

Null Rod - Chalice for 2 is one of my favorite plays, although my favorite is Chalice for 0, 1, and 2 on the play. 

One time, I'm playing my friend, and he's playing Grimlong, right?  I go:

Workshop, Mox Pearl, Lotus (break Lotus for red), Welder, Chalice for 1, Chalice for 2, Chalice for 0.

He goes:  "It's okay, I have rebuild in my hand."

What's more hilarious is I draw Chalice next turn, and eventually set it at 3 two turns later.

[Komatteru]

So Chalice is good because you can drop it at 0,1,2,and 3 all at once in a few turns?  Clearly, Chalice is good because it shows up in multiples of 3 and 4 every game.  And tell me what deck in the format can win through that?

[Buttons]

So Chalice is good because you can drop it at 0,1,2,and 3 all at once in a few turns?  Clearly, Chalice is good because it shows up in multiples of 3 and 4 every game.  And tell me what deck in the format can win through that?

Chalice is good period.  It's better in Uba than it is in 5c.  5c could have got that same hand, though.  What did you think I was trying to say?

I was just saying that because you have so many 1cc spells in 5c, Chalice for 1 hurts you more than it does in Uba, for instance, and that it might not always be a good play to do Chalice for 0, chalice for 1 on the play in 5c.  (especially not if you're holding something like...

Welder x 2, City of Brass, Mox Pearl, Chalice x 2, Vampric Tutor.

Or worse:

Chalice x 2, Welder, Ancestral Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Mox Emerald.

And think of these on the DRAW.  They're keeper hands, but they're hands that you're just like:  "I wish Chalice for 1 wouldn't cripple me so much."

For instance, let's say, in Uba, I had the hand of:

Welder x2, Chalice x 2, Workshop, Mox Pearl, Bazaar.

I wouldn't have any problem going Chalice for 0, chalice for 1.  It'd hurt me, sure, but I'd still do it because I'm not going to draw into any 1cc spells.

That's all I was trying to say, JD.

[Fantaman]

Mhm Chalice is very very strong on the actual metagame and Chalice 0 against T1T or MGift it's a nice Bomb.

Probably the problem of this great card is the DICE...

If you don't start it's not a very strong card...yes after you draw chalice setted 1 it's quite well...but welders are dead...

Chalice 2 sometimes it's a bomb but remember Stax win because spheres are on play and your opponent can't play spells....

it's not easy to decide Chalice Main deck or not...!

Normally in my Stax I always play with 3 Chalice Maindeck but sometimes this card lock myself.

It' not easy, it's one my favourite cards but unfortunately with the Dice ( dice for start ) it's sooooo boring

Byez!

[Nym]

I approve of what it says fantaman...

Of main 3 chalice, the 4th in side putting even decreases to us and within when we start.

In the metagame now it is the card that resolves many games: in my opinion one of the lock deadlier.

2x I see them useless also why our draw-engine enough is limited.

To start for this deck is fundamental.

Bye 

[Liam-K]

So Chalice is good because you can drop it at 0,1,2,and 3 all at once in a few turns?  Clearly, Chalice is good because it shows up in multiples of 3 and 4 every game.  And tell me what deck in the format can win through that?

No, chalice is good because you can drop it at 0, 1, 2 OR 3 depending on which you need at the time.  It plays a very different role at each setting.  It's deceptively flexible, much more so than meddling mage or a similar parralel.