[deck] U/b Permission

[Kasuras]

Decklist:

Scholomance, or U/b Permission - Kasuras

1 Library of Alexandria
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Swamp

4 Dimir Cutpurse
1 Circu, Dimir Lobotomist

1 Ancestral Recall
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
1 Mind Twist
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Echoing Truth
3 Shadow of Doubt
1 Coffin Purge
3 Energy Flux
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Morphling

Why U/b?

I have chosen for a U/b build mostly because just blue is in my opinion not sufficiently versatile in its answers; Diabolic Edict, real Tutors and a few more goodies. Moreover, Dimir Cutpurse is a lot better than Ophidian. And it doesn't hurt the mana base at all really; 2 Underground Sea and a Swamp have proven to be enough for a steady flow of black mana.

I have chosen black over other colors mostly because of the Tutors and the ability to answer everything, at a cost, where other colors don't have that brute tutoring power and only have strong answers against certain situations, as where black has answers to everything.

Moreover, former cards in the popular U/r build have lost a lot of their power. Gorilla Shaman and Blood Moon only work to a certain extent, but are definitely not cards you can "ride to victory". Black doesn't really offer those either (although a resolved Circu usually wins the game), but it does offer very strong versatile cards in exchange.

Card Choices

Mana Base
7 Basic lands and 4 fetch are more than enough to survive any Wasteland onslaughts. Not more than 4 fetch because that isn't necessary. I've got enough other shuffle effects and Impulse to get rid of "bad" Brainstormed cards.

Creatures
It's obvious that Dimir Cutpurse is a lot better than Ophidian: it deals damage, nets you 2 cards advantage, faster clock, triggers Circu twice, etc. The only advantage Ophidian has is that phid's easier to Drain into, but that really doesn't equal the benefits from Cutpurse at all. Cutpurse over Shadowmage Infiltrator because there usually are no blockers anyway.

Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is a little harder to justify, but he's been very good for me. Most people probably think that it's a "win more" card, but it really isn't. Since you kill slowly with this deck, people can still rip something broken off their libraries. Now: you can rip something broken off their library! Moreover, every spell you play helps you in making sure that they don't cast much interesting anymore since it works both ways: you can get lucky and get a 1of to screw them over, or get a 4of and screw them over as well. Not to mention that removing lands really isn't that bad either, since they can draw less lands then. (this can be at your disadvantage, of course.. but usually not because I play 4 Wastes as well)

Disruption
FoW and Drain are obvious, and I don't think Mana Leak doesn't need that much explanation either. Mind Twist because this deck doesn't have *that* much Drain targets, and because it's just generally a gamewinner. I'm thinking about cutting it though; Misdirection is seeing a lot more play nowadays. It's also the card I usually sideboard out. I don't really know anything to replace it with though, and it's been very good to me occasionally.

No Null Rod and Back to Basics. No Null Rod because I hurt my own manabase too much with it; although it's pretty much okay without Null Rod in play; I can get in trouble at the first 3 turns with it. Sure, it kills Gifts a lot more than myself; but it doesn't kill Gifts enough to justify it. If I would play Oath, then it would be a whole different story because I could just play Oath and ride it to victory. But that's not the case here because my gameplan is to play longer than a few turns. I don't really think Back to Basics is that strong in this deck; most decks "fearing" it do play enough fetch and basic lands to not get completely owned by it because they can just go broken.

No Chalice because I don't want to screw myself over. And I do believe that Circu together with 12 counters accomplishes all things Chalice does, but better. Since Chalice on 1 screws me with my Brainstorms and on 2 kills my Impulse. Both cards that fetch counters, and I'd rather counter in response than have something the opponent can play around but I have to play around myself as well. I don't want to play around my own stuff, I want to kill in time. Playing around it longer will decrease my chances of winning.

Draw, Tutors and Broken
Brainstorm, Impulse and Ancestral Recall are the perfect way to find a counter when you need to. Other uses are obvious. Fact or Fiction is in the list because it's just too good to pass on, and it's a great Drain outlet as well. Yawgmoth's Will actually is a card of which I've had serious doubts, however; just like Mind Twist, it's way too good to pass on. And it saved me a lot of times already as well. Thirst for Knowledge because I wanted a XU draw spell as a Drain outlet, not too happy with it though and I'm looking for something better.

Sideboard

I've never been good in making sideboards and sideboarding, so it's basically Wish targets + certain bombs against certain decks. I need a lot of help with this though.

Matchups

I must be honest here: I've tested this deck a long time on MWS, but since most opponents there aren't really that great and I can't choose the decks I face: my results are a little skewed. However, I can still share my experience with this deck I guess:

-Staxx: most of the games played against it were wins, esspecially after sideboarding because of the Fluxes. No Ubastaxx faced though. I think you stand a pretty good chance against it because you run a lot more draw. The lack of ways to deal with things that have resolved is however something I'm a bit worried about, Goblin Welder in particular.

-Oath: a very tough matchup, and I really think this matchup is heavily in their favour. A resolved Oath is usually just GG, so you need a lot of counters. You need to get pretty lucky here.

-GrimLong: only played 1 match. He was just a better player and I played pretty bad then, so I can't say that much about it. They play a lot of things you have to counter though, so although the matchup is probably a bit in your favour: it's still a tough one. If you can get it past turn 3, you probably win.

-Gifts: I faced infinite Gifts deck before I started playing this. And after that: nothing. :<

Conclusion

I think this is a very strong deck that definitely has some potential because I think Circu is a really strong card in this deck. Help with the sideboard and mainboard would be appreciated.

-Kasuras

[Dipstik]

It looks a little rough that your only win conditions are a 1/1 creature and circu lobotomist. Usually people toss a morphling or psychatog into their control decks to provide the coup de grace. Do you usually depend on decking people with Circu?

[Kasuras]

It looks a little rough that your only win conditions are a 1/1 creature and circu lobotomist. Usually people toss a morphling or psychatog into their control decks to provide the coup de grace. Do you usually depend on decking people with Circu?

Please note that the Cutpurses are 2/2.

And yes, I rely on the Cutpurses to kill someone in the first game. If that proves to be not enough the first game, well then: Morphling is in the sideboard. I know it looks a bit dumb and all, but I never really had any problems with killing the opponent. I've tried Morphling, but he was removed pretty quick when it became apperant fling is nothing but a bad FoW ditch card. 5 Mana is a lot, and you usually want 8 before casting it.. and that's just too much.

[And11]

Is it realistic for you to use the Cutpurse effectively against any deck at all?

-Vs. Stax, it will only resolve if you've already won. Tangle Wire, CotV/Rod, Stack, CoW etc. should keep you away from 1BU until the winner is decided. 1BU, sorcery speed = Not good vs. Stax.

-Vs. Fish, you'll be starring at a Mongrel, w00twalla or another Grizzly Bear and regret you ever put the guy into your deck. Don't even get me started on the Affinity and FoodChain matchups...

-Vs. Mana Drain-based control/combo, this guy will only be good if you win the die roll AND have a Mox in your opening 7 or the top card. Otherwise, it's too risky walking into Drain->Gifts/other borken stuff IMO. And even if you manage to resolve it, they might as well Gifts up a winning combination, Tinker for Colossus or Oath up Akroma to beat your face.

-Vs. dr4g0n/Long/Belcher, it will simply be too slow. If you spend your second or third turn tapping out for a creature, which won't do anything until your next attack phase, they'll be spending their next turn winning instead of caring about your fancy Grizzly Bear. Remember, they're approximately goldfishing the turn you're playing Cutpurse. Sure, you can opt not to play him, but that would make it a suboptimal card choise and that's even worse than what I already described.

It might sound a bit harsh, but I honestly hope you disagree completely. It would make one hell of a discussion, if you raise some valid points and/or answer my criticisms towards your draw/discard engine, Dimir Cutpurse.

Good Luck with the deck and props for trying new stuff in Vintage,
/Andreas Petersen - Denmark

[Dozer]

I like the deck at first glance, although I haven't put it through the wringer yet. I'm looking to build something with Cutpurses, too. I have some questions, though, which cover some issues I'd do differently in a deck like this. I tried U/B Control a while ago (in Melbourne), but didn't have any Ophy-like creatures, so I come from a slightly different angle (I took colors out of 4cC while this looks more like adding colors to Mono-U).

First, no Tinker -> DSC. DSC can be a dead card at times, but you have Brainstorms and TfKs to get rid of it, and I see no solid reason not to play it. Whenever someone does not include the universal blue "oops, I win"-combo, I think the burden of proof is with him.

Second, the draw engine looks alright, but as you question TfK yourself, what about Skeletal Scrying? Also, the single Merchant Scroll serves not much of a purpose, and at least one Impulse could be replaced with it (edit: I guess I was a little unclear here -- I meant a second Scroll over an Impulse). Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral is often stronger than Impulse, and while I see Impulse being good, Merchant Scroll is slightly more powerful with Cunning Wish, Ancestral Recall and Fact or Fiction as possible targets, in addition to Mystical Tutor which gets Mind Twist and Tinker (if you have it).

Third, only 4 Moxen looks wrong. Your win condition isn't that cheap, and you want to have counter mana open at all times. With Mana Leak in the deck, you always want to have the Mox to lead with if only for bluffing. Especially with TfK ion the deck, despite of all the draw, you definitely want the fifth Mox. Same with Impulse and Skeletal Scrying as well as Mind Twist and FoF... you have enough colorless requirements that cutting a Mox looks very, very weird. What was your reasoning behind this? More consistent blue mana? Not getting owned by Chalice 0?
Both reasons wouldn't convince me, because you do not have to cut a blue mana source to add the Mox and vs. Chalice Stax, you can always side out the Emerald. You say that Null Rod screws your base as well -- if you need the Moxen that badly, why not play all five?

Fourth, what is your opinion on Duress? Related to Mana Leak and 4 Moxen, with that configuration I'd have expected at least 2 Duress main and only 2 Leaks, or something similar to that.

Lastly, I know this type of deck has a lot of appeal because it can control the game at its own pace. But you have nothing that really affects the board (Powder Keg? just a flashing thought), and your Wish targets lack severly. What are the advantages of playing this deck over something more powerful and much more explosive, especially Gifts, and over something even more consistent like Mono-U with access to BtB?

(Oh yeah, as an afterthought: I've always liked Cranial Extraction and Masticore as bombs in U/B. Just thought I'd throw this in.)

Dozer

[Kasuras]

Lastly, I know this type of deck has a lot of appeal because it can control the game at its own pace. But you have nothing that really affects the board (Powder Keg? just a flashing thought), and your Wish targets lack severly. What are the advantages of playing this deck over something more powerful and much more explosive, especially Gifts, and over something even more consistent like Mono-U with access to BtB?

This question, why to play this over any other deck, is one I can answer: but I can't back it up with enough arguments. So hereby my try: (alas, not backed up by sufficient testing)

This deck has way more options to find counters than any other deck; Impulse, Brainstorm and of course the 12 counters themselves opposed to the 8 counters from Gifts. This would be the most important reason to play this over Gifts, since you can stretch the game very long: and that's where Circu drops in! Every blue and black spell you play potentially wins you the game with Circu out.

The reason why you want to play this over mono U is simple: your mana base doesn't get hurt at all by it (I'm very proud of it to be honest) and you get lots of goodies with the addition of black. Back to Basics is even a card I can still play (note the swamp) but I don't for aforementioned arguments.

But I understand that this is a very important issue with any deck: why play it over deck x? I'm afraid I can't answer that yet with enough testing to back it up, all I can say is that it is very consistent and has a very interesting win-condition very much worth looking at.


Over to your suggestions:

Tinker + DSC. As you've seen in the list, there aren't many cards I can remove for it since it's very tight already. The only options as I see it are Y. Will, Mind Twist and the 2 TfKs. But I really think that those cards are way better than the randomness of Tinker.

Skeletal Scrying over TfK: something I consider, but I think that at first I'd rather have something else. Since this deck usually just goes trough all the cards with Brainstorm and Impulse to find the cards you want instead of actually drawing them. In the early game: this is better than Scrying. And in the lategame, I'd rather chain those cards with the added card advantage of TfK to fill up your hand.

Merchant Scroll: you forget that it is an indirect tutor for everything in your deck, and that it also fetches Drains and FoWs in addition to Recall. But you really only need 1 since I'd rather draw about everything than a Scroll, but Scroll can fetch you a counter when you need to find one, a Drain for a big setup next turn for instance.

4 Moxen might look weird, but I'd like to remind you of the fact that I only run 23 mana sources. And I feel that the 5th Mox is either a dead draw and that I'd rather have an Island. Just adding another Mox is not something I can easily do. The chance of drawing a Mox in your opening hand when running 6 instead of 5 is really not that big, and I usually need 3 Moxen to do whatever I want in the mid to late game. And I'm a little afraid of Null Rod. Consistent blue mana isn't really an excuse indeed. I'm probably going to test the extra Mox in place of the LoA: I usually don't have 7 cards in hand anyway.

Duress would mean I have to play a lot more black mana, and I'm a little reluctant to do so: this certainly weakens my position against Wastelands since you either want to cast Duress first turn or Drain second turn. So you have to fetch that Underground Sea or Swamp, but both are pretty dangerous.

Masticore: interesting, I'm really going to see where this could fit in the sideboar.

Extraction: I already have Circu, which gets the job done a lot better.

I hope that answers your questions sufficient.

[Scoops666]

I like the deck, it looks liek it has some strong potential. However, I think you may want to try and find room for 2-3 Powder Kegs. As it is you don't really have much in the ways of dealing with annoying resolved permanants (Welders are the biggest worry). I'm not exactly sure how you'd do it, maybe 1-2 counters and a tutor?

Also, 1 Gush Side might be good if you're in a good position, need more cards with a wish in hand. Just a thought.

[lordmayhem]

Well I have to be completely honest : I like the concept, but not the list.

Dimir Cutpurse is really cool but I wouldn't rely on 2/2 s to win.

Circu doesn't look like he is more than just an overkill card and I don't see how your explanation justifies you running him. Rather than make up for your slow killing, why not just speed it up with a fat win condition instead? Do not take this as an attack. If you are convinced that its really worth it, could you provide a more detailed explanation as to WHY it is so good? Thanks. 

As an aside, a friend of mine is tinkering around with a 3cc deck and he's running 2 Moroii which are proving to be very good beatdown. You might want to look into them.

I really think that Tinker->DSC would be far more efficient and should be included, regardless of what your win condition will be. The Ooops I Win factor is hard not to include.

Also, considering that you're running black, have you given any thought to running Night's Whisper for draw? I personally like them but they might seem inferior to you. In that case, SkS with Drain Mana would be awesome.

I know Dozer mentioned this, but what are your thoughts on running Duress? Its really good.

Just my 2cents.

[Kasuras]

I like the deck, it looks liek it has some strong potential. However, I think you may want to try and find room for 2-3 Powder Kegs. As it is you don't really have much in the ways of dealing with annoying resolved permanants (Welders are the biggest worry). I'm not exactly sure how you'd do it, maybe 1-2 counters and a tutor?

Also, 1 Gush Side might be good if you're in a good position, need more cards with a wish in hand. Just a thought.

You're right on the fact that I need some way, other than Wish, to kill resolved permanents. However; your solution just doesn't cut it. This deck's strength lies in the fact that it can very easily find Counters, removing 2 of them and a Tutor will decrease that strength a lot.

I'm now trying Darkblast and Gush instead of 2 Shadow of Doubts in the sideboard.

Well I have to be completely honest : I like the concept, but not the list.

Dimir Cutpurse is really cool but I wouldn't rely on 2/2 s to win.

Circu doesn't look like he is more than just an overkill card and I don't see how your explanation justifies you running him. Rather than make up for your slow killing, why not just speed it up with a fat win condition instead? Do not take this as an attack. If you are convinced that its really worth it, could you provide a more detailed explanation as to WHY it is so good? Thanks. 

As an aside, a friend of mine is tinkering around with a 3cc deck and he's running 2 Moroii which are proving to be very good beatdown. You might want to look into them.

I really think that Tinker->DSC would be far more efficient and should be included, regardless of what your win condition will be. The Ooops I Win factor is hard not to include.

Also, considering that you're running black, have you given any thought to running Night's Whisper for draw? I personally like them but they might seem inferior to you. In that case, SkS with Drain Mana would be awesome.

I know Dozer mentioned this, but what are your thoughts on running Duress? Its really good.

Just my 2cents.

They're fine in the first game to rely on mostly, but you're right that it looks rather clumsy and is far from perfect.

Circu is NOT an overkill card. I can't stretch this far enough: Circu is simply awesome. There is no such thing as overkill with this deck. With Circu, you can change from control to prison-control. I know "try him and see for yourself" really is a bad argument, but I don't really see any other arguments at the moment. A resolved Circu usually is good game versus about any deck.

Moroii? Are you joking? No. This is a control deck, not a bad aggro-control deck.

Yes, of course Tinker --> DSC is good. But can it take the place of a hard needed other card in the deck? I can't really say I found an option as of yet.

Night's Whisper and Duress are both black. And I don't want to rely that much on black mana. Turn 1 Duress? That's either fetching a Swamp or a Sea, Sea is vulnerable to Wasteland. Either way: no possibility for a turn 2 Drain.

Hope this explains your questions, I'll try to be a bit more in depth later today when I have tested the deck more.

Edit: I think Tinker --> Plat. Angel is perhaps better than DSC.

[lordmayhem]

They're fine in the first game to rely on mostly, but you're right that it looks rather clumsy and is far from perfect.

Circu is NOT an overkill card. I can't stretch this far enough: Circu is simply awesome. There is no such thing as overkill with this deck. With Circu, you can change from control to prison-control. I know "try him and see for yourself" really is a bad argument, but I don't really see any other arguments at the moment. A resolved Circu usually is good game versus about any deck.

Well seeing as you tried him yourself, perhaps you could explain why he is so good. I disagree with you that there is no such thing as overkill in your deck. Circu seems like it needs a lot of investment in cards to make it anywhere near useful and when he is useful, he's still not winning you the game, so I would very much like an explanation. I'm afraid that I don't have the time to try him for myself, seeing as MWS is loaded with retards and people who play decks badly and I'm working on a bunch of school work, so...yeah, I wouldn't mind an explanation. 

Moroii? Are you joking? No. This is a control deck, not a bad aggro-control deck.

Moroii is an efficient beater and would be a better way to win than Cutpurse beatdown. There are better choices I'm sure, but seeing as you're going for the UB thing, its the first thing that came to mind.

Yes, of course Tinker --> DSC is good. But can it take the place of a hard needed other card in the deck? I can't really say I found an option as of yet.

I would probably cut an Impulse and Circu to make room for Tinker Colossus, but this is an opinion coming from someone who hasn't tested the deck.

Night's Whisper and Duress are both black. And I don't want to rely that much on black mana. Turn 1 Duress? That's either fetching a Swamp or a Sea, Sea is vulnerable to Wasteland. Either way: no possibility for a turn 2 Drain.

I see. You might want to look into SkS anyway though.

Edit: I think Tinker --> Plat. Angel is perhaps better than DSC.

I'm inclined to disagree since DSC is a very good finisher and cannot be blasted away with artifact hate.

[Kasuras]

Alright, here is the full Circu explanation:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=RavnicaCityofGuilds&name=circu,_dimir_lobotomist#

"Whenever you play a blue spell, remove the top card of target library from the game.
Whenever you play a black spell, remove the top card of target library from the game.
Your opponents can’t play nonland cards with the same name as a card removed from the game with Circu."

So basically this card has the following unique uses, next to blocking/attacking:

-Remove cards altogether from the game. This applies to everything, but lands in particular because the other uses don't apply there.
-Remove 1-ofs from the game. This applies to cards such Y. Will, Tinker and DSC to name a few.
-Remove 1+-ofs from the game. Force of Will, Mana Drain and Gifts Ungiven to name a few. This only works as long as Circu remains in play.

So, I think we can safely say that this effect is very strong on its own.

But you're not playing 60circu.dec, but let's get to the draw engine. As you can see; this deck's draw engine is a "chained" one. With this I mean that you're casting quite a few spells, actually tutors and minitutors, to get what you want instead of actually drawing the cards (card quality over card advantage). And as you're aware: this works very good with Circu! You can compare this with GaT: the more spells you play, the bigger your chances are of winning.

Look at it this way: I can stretch the game up to turn 10 at least usually, Circu can be cast turn 3 if I want to (usually after a Drain --> he doesn't have counters anyway, and I have counters left) and then I usually cast at least 2 spells a turn via either Cutpurse (drawing 1 extra) or just chaining your spells; Brainstorm, Impulse, Tutor, Tutor for Drain is not really that uncommon, but it's just drawing 1 card a turn. That is roughly 20+ spells removed over time; I can do the math for you, but I think you'll see that this is pretty much equal to winning.


Moroii: I'm not going for just U/b. I'm going for a U/b control based deck that gets stronger over time. Not a U/b deck with a bad beatdown way.

DSC + Tinker: I'm never going to cut Circu from this deck, it's the most important card in the deck and my winner. Cutting Impulse is not an option because this decreases my chances of finding counters and Tinker + DSC in particular, not to mention that Impulse is a very important part of my draw engine. Not being able to find Tinker is way worse than not having it.

Skeletal Scrying? I've adressed it earlier.

[Draven]

I love U/B. They are my favorite colors and my favorite startagies. So first of all, kudos to picking th ebest two colors in the game.

(Okay, in my professional training, I was always taught to lead in with a compliment, then offer the critisizm.)

Here comes the critisizm. Tinker-->DSC is way too good to not include into a deck with Blue mana + Artifacts. I feel I have to say that again: Tinker-->DSC is way too good to not include into a deck with Blue mana + Artifacts.

You argue that Tinker->DSC takes away from your game plan, but your game plan in its rawest form is winning, and Tinker->DSC is a great way to win.

Personally, I would cut: Merchent Scroll and Mind Twist. The reason's I chose these two cards is because for 2 mana (merchant scroll) you can fetch a blue instant (you still have 3 more tutors) or for 3 mana (Tinker) you can get a 2 turn clock on the board. If that option fails, you still have the the other startagy. As for cutting the Mindtwist you said yourself you were questioning it, but couldn't think of a better card to put in. Well, I think you found the better card.

If you do go the Tinker->DSC route, then I would strongly suggest you follow Dozer's advice and add the 5th Mox and also adding a Sol Ring. You dont't do anything turn 1 so playing a Sol Ring is not an envestmant you can't handle.

Finally, you will need some removal besides Cunning Wish-?Answer. There is too much fish/stax running around. They have more threats then you have counters, that is the nature of those decks. Someone mentioned Powder Keg, but Nevenarl's Disk is a okay option too. The problem with both of those are they are artifacts that take a turn to go...

I do appreciate the time you put into the deck. Like I said, I love U/B and was quite excited when I saw the guild stuff come out of Ravnica and I am glad you put the time into putting together a guildish deck.

[Fubar]

Is the cutpurse better than Shadowmage Finkle?  The question is Finkle's evasion (powerful) worth the risk? 
The discarding effect seems like it would be deceptive and often risky, shadowmage seems like a more reliable source of card advantage.

[Glix]

I have done a little testing with this deck, and although I like it, I have made a few revisions.

First of all, you need full power (save twister) and sol ring to boot.  You also really want Tiner>Colossus as a quick game win.  I have added 3 powder kegs, and I would not think of taking them out.  I also added two duresses.  You need more permission.  You don't, however, need impulse brainstorm and thirst all at the same time.  I kept brainstorm and cut impulse because I am using Colossus.  I also cut the random merchant scroll.  Mind Twist, however, I would not cut.  Draining into it or just casting it has been a game winner many times for me.  In addition, Circu has proved its worth to me.  I can drop this, and if an opponant doesn't have enough threats down, its usually gg after a brainstorm and a few other spells.  I have had players scoop just at the sight of him.

Oath is so bad for you.  A resolved oath is so often game over.  I have cut the morphlings (when do i side them in?) for more oath hate.  You can deal with stax, combo you can out control fairly often, and fish is winable, but oath is just a beast.  You have to counter to many things to early, and they run about as much permission as you do.

[Jujuboy]

The deck looks like fun but I couldn't imagine running Cutpurse over Infiltrator, or even Ophidian. The discard effect just isn't worth the risk. If I wanted a 2 power card drawer I'd probably even choose the Ninja over him (he's four mana but he drops well off drain mana).

Because this deck has such a hard time with resolved threats, why not try a Ub only Tog build? That way you get 3 or 4 Cunning Wish and a creature that swallows potential attackers and blockers whole. In addition the Intuition->AK card pairing works well with your "chaining" plan for Circu. That would let you could reduce your kills to: 1x Circu and 1-2x Psychatog. Pyschatog is hands down the best UB critter in the entire game (possibly the best critter period), why not have him riding shotgun with Circu?

[Zeke]

It's hard to compare Ophie to Dimir Cutpurse.  The reason that Phid was so good was because normally you were casting him off drain mana.  I know that I constantly drained something, then used 2 of the mana and a single mana source on my turn to lay down an ophie, leaving plenty of mana available for counter-backup.

With Dimir you absolutely have to tap out in order to play it, unless you try to circumvent that with some sort of mana-fixing spell...none of which are very good that are available.

Finkle has the same mana-problem as Dimir, but Finkle has evasion, which means a LOT.

The mana I think is the main reason why Dimir, while really awesome, not playable.

[Kasuras]

First of all, I'd like to state that I'm very happy with the fact that people have tried this deck and found it just as interesting as me.

I'll post the revisions in my own list first, and then I'll respond to the questions/remarks posted:

-1 Library of Alexandria
-1 Mind Twist
-1 Merchant Scroll

+1 Tinker
+1 Darksteel Colossus
+1 Mox Pearl

I've tried Tinker --> DSC and I like it very much; the random effect of DSC is a lot better than the randomness of Mind Twist. Merchant Scroll, well.. Something had to make the cut. LoA became a Pearl because I indeed need additional artifacts for Tinker to work, and LoA was pretty bad in the deck anyways due to the nature of my draw engine.

I am, however, now a little uncertain about the quality of my manabase. I'm now considering going to 24 mana sources in the form of an extra Island instead of a TfK.


The fact that I added DSC will now ensure that my kill mechanism is a lot more direct, so that means that the damage from the Cutpurses is not as needed as before. Thus, I'm now considering changing them for either Finkle or Phid. I still like them though, partly because they activate Circu twice. Phid being a better Drain outlet however is something important I'm looking into now.

About comparing this to Psychatog: yes, I have heavily considered this. I'd first like to state however that Tog and this deck are entirely different deck, that's a bit like comparing Gifts with Oath. As I see it: both running the same colors and control but that's where the comparisons stop. I will look into it though, but the decks are fundamentally different. If the Tog version proves to be better in every aspect however, well I'll admit that and change to that.

Adding Sol Ring: I am VERY much not in favour of this. Since you say you are running Powder Kegs however, I understand this. In my opinion: Engineered Explosives is a lot better than Keg. I am probably going to put the Explosives in the sideboard, but I will not add Sol Ring mainboard.

Duress? That means I have to change my entire manabase. Something I don't want to do because Duress isn't that amazing to warrant a mana-base gone wrong.

Removing Impulse is a flaw in deck design in my opinion. You are adding lots of threats, but are forgetting that your option of finding those are pretty much nullified. Really, you're not going to get what you want with only 4 Brainstorms and the 2 TfK.

If you do go the Tinker->DSC route, then I would strongly suggest you follow Dozer's advice and add the 5th Mox and also adding a Sol Ring. You dont't do anything turn 1 so playing a Sol Ring is not an envestmant you can't handle.

Not playing anything in turn 1? Are you kidding me? I ALWAYS play a spell turn 1.

Finally, you will need some removal besides Cunning Wish-?Answer. There is too much fish/stax running around. They have more threats then you have counters, that is the nature of those decks. Someone mentioned Powder Keg, but Nevenarl's Disk is a okay option too. The problem with both of those are they are artifacts that take a turn to go...

I have never lost one game against either fish or staxx.


Current plan for the sideboard:

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Energy Flux
1 Psychatog

2 Darkblast

1 Echoing Truth
1 Counterspell
1 Coffin Purge
1 Skeletal Scrying

2 ? Possible ideas could be Vampiric Tutor (Imperial Seal main --> you're usually casting it before attacking with your Cutpurse anyway), an extra Darkblast or perhaps some tech stolen from extended Tog decks. Other options could be something to hate Oath. (Claws of Gix? Cranial Extraction?)


As a final statement of this reply I'd like to state that I am quite amazed by the deck's current power: it runs a lot of Counterspells, has a very stable manabase and has proved to be AMAZING in finding the stuff you want.

[Dozer]

Finkle has the same mana-problem as Dimir, but Finkle has evasion, which means a LOT.

The mana I think is the main reason why Dimir, while really awesome, not playable.

On the other hand, the effect is just stronger than Ophie and Finkel. Cutpurse creates +2 CA with every hit instead of just +1, and it deals two damage instead of one (Finkel) or none (Ophidian). Sure, it doesn't have evasion, so Fish's creatures can block it dead. But who else has blockers? The other deck with creatures of note is Workshop Aggro, which blocks Finkel just fine, too. There are no decks with relevant blockers, and I think that the extra CA Cutpurse provides is worth the extra color in the mana cost.
Not being able to Drain out the Cutpurse is easily offset by its extra power.

As for the changes, Mindtwist and Merchant Scroll are both very good, but Tinker -> DSC is just better. I still would hold on to Cutpurses, though, because of the reasons above and the better interaction with Circu.

Dozer

[Kasuras]

While I agree on the fact that Cutpurse > Finkle, and your reasoning for it is correct: there are a few minor flaws in the coherency of it as you posted it:

Finkle's evasion indeed doesn't matter at all: since it really isn't that much of Evasion in this format anyway. Fear? As Dozer said; the only creatures noteworthy AT ALL are those in fish and Workshop Aggro. And since it looks like fish is going for U/b as well, they'll just block it with their black creatures. And if they're playing another color than black, well they still play Mishra's Factory.

Plainly saying Cutpurse > Phid even when I now added DSC now is something I'm not too sure about. The not so good drainable aspect of Cutpurse is starting to annoy me more and more. On the other hand; if Cutpurse hits the table, you don't have to worry about Drain outlets anymore because you're drawing a lot more to Drain into. But I don't think you should dismiss it so easily.

[lordmayhem]

I read your explanation on Circu and I understand the whole chaining draw spells concept, but I guess I have to test it myself to see its true worth. If I'm not mistaken, if Circu gets RFG'd, the "can't play spells" effect goes away. Anyway;

Cutpurse generates better card advantage than Phid does, despite the inability to cast it off a Drain, along with Cutpurse triggering Circu twice, so I wouldn't cut Cutpurses.

What I would suggest is running draw spells which you can drain into. TfK is nice and all but considering the number of artifacts you are running, I don't see it being so great. Considering that you're going to be filling your graveyard with Brainstorms, Impulses, fetches, tutors, counters and etc you might want to reconsider using SkS. Yes you can re-chain your spells with Will, but you can Drain into a sizeable SkS, gaining more counters and more blue/black spells for your Circu.

I don't think SkS should be so lightly dismissed. You might want to test it a bit more, unless you haven't tested it at all.

Unless you find something worthy of making use of drain mana you might as well be running Counterspell.

[TheUprisal]

This deck looks very promising, and it seems as though it's on the cusp.

Skeletal Scrying, even though you prevously mentioned you do not like it, works beautifully in here. You are generating a ton of card advantage, playing a ton of counters, and not losing all that much life to other effects in the process.  This is more or less screaming for a card that can take your used resources and become an instant-speed draw 3-5.

Other than that, the aforementioned Tinker-DSC is an excellent inclusion.

Major props, a twist on a old favorite archetype 

[andrewpate]

My team actually ran a deck startling similar to this at States, with removal in place of most of the countermagic (Hey, it's States.) and a Transmute engine in place of the tutors.  Some thoughts on the Vintage version:

Have you considered a copy of Hinder or Memory Lapse?  You mention tutoring for Mana Drain, but sometimes tutoring for one of these two could be fantastic given the interaction with Circu.  My recommendation would be cutting a Drain for a Hinder, since Hinder is better than Memory Lapse when you just draw it and, as has been said, the deck doesn't utilize the Drain mana that well, anyway.

I really like Skeletal Scrying a lot better than Thirst for Knowledge.  In addition to the Drain interaction, there are times when you really need to find a certain card and TFK can simply only dig three cards down.  I also like the fact that Scrying allows you to utilize your life total, which is always a resource I look at tapping into when I build Vintage decks.  Only Workshop Aggro should leave you concerned about this, and as far as I can tell, this should have a killer matchup against that deck.

@lordmayhem
You are correct that Circu stops working if he leaves play.  The cards removed, however, stay removed.  This makes Circu's ability to remove cards like Yawgmoth's Will just as strong as before.  It's only with cards like Force of Will that this comes up.  Which is admittedly still bad, but fortunately, the only really playable maindeck removal spell is Swords to Plowshares, and white is terrible.  I agree with everything else you've said (esp. about Skeletal Scrying), but I must assure you that Circu is pure gold.  One of the biggest strengths of the Standard version was that people assumed a turbo-mill strategy when Circu came down, but were surprised to discover how effective he is as a control card.  The presence of restricted cards shouldn't impact this very much because those cards tend to be strong, so randomly removing one is still good.  The random Mox you might rip off the top hardly justifies cutting the card.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Have you tested Dark Confidant?  I'm not saying you should make this deck look Fishy in any other way, but Confidant is a power house, especially since he can come down turn 1.  1-2 Sensei's Diving Top are more than enough to keep the life loss under control when/if it starts to matter.  I would actually test replacing the Cutpurses with him.  Turn 1 is usually spent tutoring/Brainstorming anyways, turn 2 you'd like to have Drain up.  Tapping mana during your own main phase -> bad.

Oh, and randomly, Serendib is much better than Moroii because it can be cast off U and Drain mana.  Assuming an opponent at 18 (fetches and FoW), Serendib will kill the same turn as Moroii (it can come down a turn sooner) and it's much more likely to resolve.  I wouldn't use either in this deck, I'm just saying Moroii has no place in this format.

[Kasuras]

My next test object will be Scrying in place of Thirst. I am however still pondering over how, or if, I should adapt my manabase to it. With the Swamp however, I'm not foreseeing *that* much problems. Since you guys are indeed right that I usually have lots of life anyway.


AmbivalentDuck: you are trying to take this deck into a wrong direction. Now that I'm convinced of Tinker's power in this deck; there are only 2 life thresholds. That's 11 or less life, and more than 11 life. 3 Attacks with a Cutpurse, a Vamp Tutor and 2 fetchlands will get somebody to 11 for example; and then it's the big man's job to FINISH HIM. (fatality! (8) )

Dark Confidant seems entirely suboptimal compared to Phid. And we've already, kind of, established that Cutpurse > Phid. Ergo: Cutpurse >>> Confidant.


Andrewpate:

Could you link me to your standard version list or post the list here for discussion's sake? I'm very much interested in it.

Memory Lapse and Hinder are very bad in a format like vintage. Since Circu is a gimmick. A very strong one and a gamewinner: but still a gimmick. I don't plan to play "bad" cards over good ones in case I get Circu out and running, since that IS overkill. Moreover, they don't really combo because Lapse will not remove the card with Circu in play.

[AmbivalentDuck]

By that theory, I've sped up the clock by one turn.  And comparing Confidant to Phid is foolhardy at best.  Confidant comes down turn 1, doesn't need to connect to draw you cards, and hits for 2 damage even when drawing cards.  Confidant has an advantage over the Cutpurse in that it doesn't require tapping out during your main phase at a time when you'd much rather being Draining a threat.

Where's the Phid comparison?

[Kasuras]

By that theory, I've sped up the clock by one turn.  And comparing Confidant to Phid is foolhardy at best.  Confidant comes down turn 1, doesn't need to connect to draw you cards, and hits for 2 damage even when drawing cards.  Confidant has an advantage over the Cutpurse in that it doesn't require tapping out during your main phase at a time when you'd much rather being Draining a threat.

Where's the Phid comparison?

No, you understood that logic all wrong. Attacking with Moroii "can" speed up the kill by 1 turn, but that is not an issue since you're killing fast enough anyways. I'm not going to add bad beatdown creatures to fasten the kill.

The comparison with Phid lies in the following:

-Play Phid, draw card next turn. Same for Confidant.

Differences:

-Dark Confidant requires you to lose life. Quite a lot actually because most of your spells are at least 2 mana.
-Phid is casteable off Drain mana.
-Blockers are not an issue.
-The 2 power isn't that much of an issue either. (see explanation on Cutpurse earlier)
-Edit: oh, and you can't FoW with confidant.

So like, Phid > Confidant. Cutpurse > Phid. --> Cutpurse > Confidant.

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's no reason to not be civil here. -Klep

Serendib will kill the same turn as Moroii (it can come down a turn sooner) and it's much more likely to resolve. I wouldn't use either in this deck, I'm just saying Moroii has no place in this format.

Confidant can speed up your kill by one turn because it can attack a turn sooner.  It comes down on turn 1 without requiring any Drain mana.  Blockers are an issue.  Against Fish or against someone who has already successfully Tinkered a Colossus into play, you still draw the extra card, increasing your chances of finding your Tinker for your Colossus.  The 2 power is relevent because you won't always resolve your Tinker against another control deck.   Having a backup never hurts now that people are starting to play Jester's Cap and Rootwater Thief with greater frequency.

[lordmayhem]

@ Ambivalent Duck :

Circu
Force
Colossus

along with the horde of 3 mana cc spells.

The fact that you're going to drop him on turn 1 is irrelevant if you're putting yourself on a very painful clock. Let's face it, Phyrexian Arena would do a better job than Confidant, and Arena would suck in this deck. So I don't see how a 2/1 which does even more damage AND reveals topdecked counters to your opponent would be good.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Phyrexian Arena would be restriction-worthy at 1B.  Phyrexian Arena would have to be banned at 1.  The reason it sucks now is because it requires tapping out during your main phase turn 2-3 and it costs BB.  Ritualing it out is a waste.

Just sight-guesstimating his average CC, it's around 2.5.  That's an 8 turn clock than can block Fish creatures and Goblin Piledrivers.  Still seems worth testing.  Also note that his Brainstorms alleviate some of that stress.  Turning 1-2 Impulses into Divining Tops would make Confidant stress minimal.

[TheUprisal]

Phyrexian Arena would be restriction-worthy at 1B.  Phyrexian Arena would have to be banned at 1.  The reason it sucks now is because it requires tapping out during your main phase turn 2-3 and it costs BB.  Ritualing it out is a waste.

Just sight-guesstimating his average CC, it's around 2.5.  That's an 8 turn clock than can block Fish creatures and Goblin Piledrivers.  Still seems worth testing.  Also note that his Brainstorms alleviate some of that stress.  Turning 1-2 Impulses into Divining Tops would make Confidant stress minimal.

I question whether Top is as good as Impulse for this deck.  But thats why we test 

Impulse digs and gets 3 cards out of your way.  Top just reshuffles it.  Yes, Top + Confidant is awesome synergy, but is the card advantage better than card selection in this case? 

Pro:
A ton of counters likes to have cards in hand

Con:
Top can get mana intensive over the course of many turns, whereas Impulse is a one shot deal