[deck] U/b Permission

[andrewpate]

@ Ambivalent Duck :

Circu
Force
Colossus

along with the horde of 3 mana cc spells.

The fact that you're going to drop him on turn 1 is irrelevant if you're putting yourself on a very painful clock. Let's face it, Phyrexian Arena would do a better job than Confidant, and Arena would suck in this deck. So I don't see how a 2/1 which does even more damage AND reveals topdecked counters to your opponent would be good.

I don't see what is so difficult about this for many of you.  Sure, a Sensei's Divining Top and a Dark Confidant, both in play at once, can basically act as a Jayemdae Tome that costs 1 mana to activate, which is great.  The problem is this:  Top is a card of marginal utility (at best) without the Confidant.  It is really just there to ameliorate his drawback.  The problem is that, in this deck, spending slots just to do that is probably necessary, since an unaccompanied Confidant means a steadily increasing chance of doming yourself for 11 points (or 5, or 4) as the game goes on, which, newsflash, is absolutely terrible.  I.e., you are proposing that a pile of slots be eaten up by two cards useless without one-another and only slightly more powerful than the current (independently good) cards even when used together.  How could this possibly be good?

@Kasuras
I'll type up the new decklist for the Standard version (which is called The Finger) later this evening and PM it to you.

[lordmayhem]

Phyrexian Arena would be restriction-worthy at 1B.  Phyrexian Arena would have to be banned at 1.  The reason it sucks now is because it requires tapping out during your main phase turn 2-3 and it costs BB.  Ritualing it out is a waste.

Yeah its great how you lose only 1 life for 1 card. It's also really cool how you don't need another card like Divining Top to stop yourself from killing yourself with topdecked 2-5 mana spells or the random 11 mana spell. You know what my favourite thing about it is though? How you don't have to reveal the card either! But favourites aside, I like how creature removal like say.....StP or Dark Blast won't affect it! Yeah Phyrexian Arena would be great at 1B. That doesn't automatically mean that Confidant is so great here.  

[lordmayhem]

I don't see what is so difficult about this for many of you.  Sure, a Sensei's Divining Top and a Dark Confidant, both in play at once, can basically act as a Jayemdae Tome that costs 1 mana to activate, which is great.  The problem is this:  Top is a card of marginal utility (at best) without the Confidant.  It is really just there to ameliorate his drawback.  The problem is that, in this deck, spending slots just to do that is probably necessary, since an unaccompanied Confidant means a steadily increasing chance of doming yourself for 11 points (or 5, or 4) as the game goes on, which, newsflash, is absolutely terrible.  I.e., you are proposing that a pile of slots be eaten up by two cards useless without one-another and only slightly more powerful than the current (independently good) cards even when used together.  How could this possibly be good?

We might as well start using Howling Mine + Icy again  :lol:

[AmbivalentDuck]

Top isn't an optimal card, but it's certainly not a bad one.  And we aren't discussing the quality of Confidant.  Confidant is a house, that's well established.

The question is how often you can pull off Tinker with backup by turn 8.  Goldfishing, I'd say almost always.  The proposal I'm making then, is that your draw engine is much less likely to be countered turn 1, and further that having Mana Drain up turn 2 is worth the loss of life because it gives you a very good chance of Tinkering with solid backup turn 3-4.

The current build casts Brainstorm/Impulse/a tutor turn 1.  Then casts its engine turn 2.  The engine doesn't generate any card advantage until turn 3 when you get to Mana Drain a spell (maybe) and go off turn 4-5.

Given that set up, the Confidant:
-Comes down earlier.
-Is less likely to be Drained itself.
-Allows a kill about 1 turn earlier.
-Provides the same card advantage at turn 3, slightly less at turn 4. 
--But provides much more card advantage if they have blockers.
-Is extremely unlikely to kill you by turn 4 (Requires Colossus and 2 Circu/FoW), requires all 4 FoW to kill you turn 5.

[Kasuras]

Confidant can speed up your kill by one turn because it can attack a turn sooner.  It comes down on turn 1 without requiring any Drain mana.  Blockers are an issue.  Against Fish or against someone who has already successfully Tinkered a Colossus into play, you still draw the extra card, increasing your chances of finding your Tinker for your Colossus.  The 2 power is relevent because you won't always resolve your Tinker against another control deck.   Having a backup never hurts now that people are starting to play Jester's Cap and Rootwater Thief with greater frequency.

Let me set this straight once and for all: Dark Confidant is very bad in a deck of which the objective is to play the game at its own pace. That I can get a Tinker online fast doesn't mean I always want to. Giving average CC when there is also a spike of 11 mana as an argument is flawed. If the opponent is playing creatures, then I will lose life due to Confidant so he's helping the opponent. If he's not playing creatures: phid is superior. I would appreciate it if you don't mention Confidant anymore, it is objectively bad in this deck.

Phyrexian Arena would be restriction-worthy at 1B.  Phyrexian Arena would have to be banned at 1.  The reason it sucks now is because it requires tapping out during your main phase turn 2-3 and it costs BB.  Ritualing it out is a waste.

But guess what? IT ISN'T. Neither am I running Rituals.

Top is worth considering, but I don't see it happening because of instanst being plainly better in this deck. Not to mention that Top doesn't trigger Circu.

[Anusien]

Top isn't an optimal card, but it's certainly not a bad one.  And we aren't discussing the quality of Confidant.  Confidant is a house, that's well established.

Yes, he's a house, but creature removal is back in.  Almost every deck that can make the mana is running Darkblast, which is big frowns for Confidant.  Also, dropping him turn 1 is sub-optimal for a lot of reaosns.  The main issue is if he does 2.5 to you, after three tuns you're within one hit of DSC, and that is huge frowns.  It's also significant that cutpurse causes discard, and Confidant doesn't.  Confidant is also almost always going to lose you the creature races.

What's significant is that you're trying to play this deck like a combo deck, but it isn't.  It wants to counter and then win the game on its own time.  It might just sit back and hit with Cutpurse for 10 turns, and Confidant is big frowns, especially when it trades with Welder instead of hitting for damage.

[lordmayhem]

Top isn't an optimal card, but it's certainly not a bad one.

Top is great when you're comboing out instead of using it as a crutch to make Confidant work in a deck where it doesn't belong.

Confidant is a house, that's well established.

Yeah. Well estabilished in Belcher and obscure builds of fish and sui, not slow control decks which can topdeck FoWs, 3 mana spells and DSC.

--But provides much more card advantage if they have blockers.

Please. Feel free to explain how you gain much more card advantage if they have blockers. Is this some new secret tech? Do share.

-Is extremely unlikely to kill you by turn 4 (Requires Colossus and 2 Circu/FoW), requires all 4 FoW to kill you turn 5.

Of course, if the opponent plays cards, then it is extremely likely that Confidant will get you killed faster.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Please. Feel free to explain how you gain much more card advantage if they have blockers. Is this some new secret tech? Do share.

Pretend the opponent has  a vanilla Grizzly Bear (or worse, White Knight). 
-Confidant sits in play.  It draws you a card and can block the same turn.  You take 2.5 damage.  Everyone keeps saying "Colossus", I guess I need to start saying "Mox Sapphire."  Your chances of dying turn 6 to Confidant damage are sizably lower than your chances of taking less than 10 damage.  You don't need the Top at all, but running 1 copy of it will not appreciably dilute the deck.
--Card advantage: -1 (confidant itself) +1 (Bear) +1 (card drawn) = 1

-Cutpurse
--Card advantage: -1 (Cutpurse itself) +1 (Bear) = 0

Yes, he's a house, but creature removal is back in.  Almost every deck that can make the mana is running Darkblast, which is big frowns for Confidant.  Also, dropping him turn 1 is sub-optimal for a lot of reaosns.  The main issue is if he does 2.5 to you, after three tuns you're within one hit of DSC, and that is huge frowns.  It's also significant that cutpurse causes discard, and Confidant doesn't.  Confidant is also almost always going to lose you the creature races.

What's significant is that you're trying to play this deck like a combo deck, but it isn't.  It wants to counter and then win the game on its own time.  It might just sit back and hit with Cutpurse for 10 turns, and Confidant is big frowns, especially when it trades with Welder instead of hitting for damage.

Darkblast is frowns for both Confidant and Cutpurse.  Why is dropping him turn 1 sub-optimal?  Also, I'd be hugely surprised to learn that this can "win the game on its own time" against Stax or any tier 1/2 combo if it has to tap out on its second turn for its engine.  On the other hand, I've seen no compelling reason why you couldn't quickly generate enough card advantage with the Confidant to play this as combo-control.

As far as it trading with Welder...  This is *bad*?  1B for proactive Welder removal that cantrips?

[lordmayhem]

Pretend the opponent has  a vanilla Grizzly Bear (or worse, White Knight).

For the sake of argument, I will ignore the fact that White Knight would kill the Confidant without dying, and I will also pretend that people play vanilla Grizzlies in competitive decks.

-Confidant sits in play.  It draws you a card and can block the same turn.

Nothing too astounding there. Yes Confidant can block. Which contrasts with your previous argument of THEIR blockers causing card advantage.

But anyway, lets get the maths down. You lose a couple of life points, you get an extra card, you lose a creature, they lose a creature. Broken right?

You take 2.5 damage.

Ok.

Everyone keeps saying "Colossus", I guess I need to start saying "Mox Sapphire."

That's not true. The biggest and most common caveat is the 2 mana spells, along with the random FoW and 3 mana spells which abound in the deck (see below). And yes, topdecking Colossus is pretty much "GG".

Your chances of dying turn 6 to Confidant damage are sizably lower than your chances of taking less than 10 damage.

This deck's mana curve looks something like this :

0 - 23
1 - 7
2 - 15
3 - 9
4 - 2
5 - 4
11 - 1

A probability of 31 out of 61 suggests that you can deal 2 or more than 2 damage to yourself with Confidant, so it is realistic to assess that you have a higher probability of causing damage to yourself than topdecking Mox Sapphire. By turn 6, chances are that you will have dealt upwards of 10 damage to yourself for those 5 extra cards.

That is excluding the chances of drawing into fow, fof, dsc, circu....etc and excluding the damage your opponent will undoubtedly deal to you, and excluding the life paid for fow and cracking fetchlands.

You don't need the Top at all, but running 1 copy of it will not appreciably dilute the deck.

It will just be even more useless and random than running 4 tops.

[AmbivalentDuck]

So what you took an awful lot of space to say is that you agree with me except on the possible 1 Top.  *shrug*  I can live with that.  I've never tried Top in control, I'll take your word that it's bad.

[lordmayhem]

So what you took an awful lot of space to say is that you agree with me except on the possible 1 Top.  *shrug*  I can live with that.  I've never tried Top in control, I'll take your word that it's bad.

I'll save you the trouble of trying to understand what I really said, since you seem to have (incorrectly) assumed that I agree with you.

Here's a recap:

• Your grizzly bear example is ridiculous and unrealistic. If instead of a Grizzly we have something like a Meddling Mage, they won't attack into your Confidant, since they want to keep their card named
• Your whole idea of card advantage based on their blockers, was an unnecessarily complicated way of saying that Dark Confidant can block creatures. Congratulations. You pointed out (without any purpose) the combat phase and wrote it off as card advantage, when in reality, creature combat or not, Confidant still nets you cards at a significant life loss
• Dark Confidant does not gain you anything more than just a single card in your creature combat example, while also dealing you a number in damage. Combine this with the fact that Confidant dies to creature kill spells which are popular at this time, and the fact that you reveal your topdecked business spells, putting your opponent on guard, and you do not have anything which is remotely broken. Furthermore we can add the fact that a control deck is slow, so Dark Confidant has more time to eat away at your life total, compared to the 1-4 turns that Confidant stays in play in Belcher decks.
• Dark Confidant has a higher probability of dealing upwards of 10 damage BY HIMSELF in 6 turns (in this deck), so your argument on the probability of damage was incorrect. If we count the possibility that your opponent does anything, which you obviously choose to ignore, along with FoW, fetch, V.Tutor and anything else such as SKS, then you will die.

I have gathered that you don't like reading things in an awful lot of space, so to simplify it even further for you (you have to love the convenience) :

• Forget the Grizzly Bear idea because nobody really plays vanilla 2/2 creatures.
• The combat phase does not equal card advantage.
• Dark Confidant does not belong in this deck for various reasons.
• Dark Confidant CAN get you killed by simply taking a look at the mana curve of this particular deck

In summary : No. I do not agree with you AmbivalentDuck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The question is whether or not they'll block.  Not attack.

I'm not saying that Dark Confidant can block creatures, I'm saying it doesn't need to attack to draw cards.  If it does attack and gets squished by a Withered Wretch or Kataki it still generates card advantage.  Cutpurse doesn't.

Confidant doesn't need to be broken.  Just better than Cutpurse.  They both die to creature kill. 

A control deck is slow?  Um... Gifts.  Gifts Oath.  Oath.  That was almost half the last SCG top 8? 

As far as the fact that it can kill you...okay.  Dark Confidant moves your fundamental turn forward.  I'm guessing that it moves it far enough forward to make the damage from it irrelevent.   Cutpurse mana won't be available against Stax, it'll get Drained by Gifts, Oath will be happy to let it resolve, and Fish will just block it.  Belcher and GrimLong will both go off before it can swing.  Confidant only retains the weakness to Oath and gives you another card to fight Belcher and Grimlong, better than Cutpurse but worse than Merchant Scroll in that context.

[lordmayhem]

Confidant doesn't need to be broken.  Just better than Cutpurse.  They both die to creature kill.

And Cutpurse generates +2 CA each time it makes it through.

A control deck is slow?  Um... Gifts.  Gifts Oath.  Oath.  That was almost half the last SCG top 8?

Furthermore we can add the fact that a control deck is slow, so Dark Confidant has more time to eat away at your life total, compared to the 1-4 turns that Confidant stays in play in Belcher decks.

Generally speaking, comparing combo to control, control is the slower deck. Dark Confidant shines in Belcher ( a combo deck ), since it will make use of it for less time, whereas it would not shine so brightly in control decks which will take more spells or decks with mana intensive spells. I hope it was clear for you this time round.

As far as the fact that it can kill you...okay.  Dark Confidant moves your fundamental turn forward.  I'm guessing that it moves it far enough forward to make the damage from it irrelevent.   Cutpurse mana won't be available against Stax, it'll get Drained by Gifts, Oath will be happy to let it resolve, and Fish will just block it.  Belcher and GrimLong will both go off before it can swing.  Confidant only retains the weakness to Oath and gives you another card to fight Belcher and Grimlong, better than Cutpurse but worse than Merchant Scroll in that context.

The fundamental turn? To do what exactly? Tinker Colossus? Chain a couple of spells to get Circu working its magic? That doesn't win you the game right there and then, so no, the damage from Confidant is not irrelevant.

And to stick to your argument, it'll get Drained by Gifts. Oath will be happy to let it resolve, Fish decks which are liking Dark Blast will just kill it. Belcher and GrimLong will both go off before it gains you a card. Combine that with the "oops I topdecked a FoW" factor and you successfully fail at finding something better than Cutpurse.

[Dozer]

Dark Confidant

you successfully fail at finding something better than Cutpurse.

Just drop it, people. AmbivalentDuck apparently doesn't understand that Confidant needs an aggro-base behind it, something that can finish the game before he becomes a liability. This deck does neither need nor want El Confidante. This deck wants a creature it can sit behind all game long, which Confidant is not. Let him ramble.

Instead, it is debatable if Ophidian over Cutpurse is the right choice. Kasuras mentioned it above that he wanted 'Phids instead of Cutpurses because of the Drain mana problem: Ophie is much easier to drop off a Drain. If 'Phid was in the deck, I think it might even make much sense to think about removing the black splash and going "back" to a Mono-U version with BtB or a Blood Moon splash, since Circu and Will remain as the proponents of Black. Both are good arguments for the color, but Mono-U might actually be stronger if the deck didn't have Cutpurse.

Cutpurse, though, is way better than Ophidian. The crucial thing to remember is that if your opponent is behind on cards, Cutpurse keeps him that way. The best time to play Cutpurse is after your opponent has dropped the early acceleration, but hasn't reloaded yet. Sometimes it happens in one turn, when you can't help it. But the Cutpurse when active executes a stranglehold on your opponent that can actually be felt. In a recent game against this deck with Gifts, I had a Cutpurse against me after a double mulligan -- an impossible situation to get out of. This is where you want your opponent to be. You want to force him behind and then keep that distance. Cutpurse also prevents the now common technique of "sculpting the perfect hand". When you can't build up cards in hand, getting the mix right is much harder when your opponent is aiming his disruption at your draw.

With a Cutpurse out, Brainstorm becomes a huge counter target. Ophidian doesn't do this; Ophie just helps you plod along. The Cutpurse is much more aggressive by nature, and the repeatable discard should not be undervalued. Cutpurse negates the one card drawn a turn; it keeps your control opponent at a smaller hand size while you get to choose what to keep because your hand is gorging from the Cutpurse feed.

In the aggro-control matchups (read: Fish), Cutpurse is not much more than a solid blocker. Ophidian is a slightly better blocker, but still dies to Lavamancer activations and Mishra's Factory beats. In fact, Finkel might be the best aggro-foil of the three, but the difference is insignificant in comparison to how strong Cutpurse is when roaming alone. Btw, you don't necessarily want to run Finkel into your opponent even with evasion. Your gameplan against aggro becomes hold them off with your creatures as long as possible while you find the Tinker. That's what the card-drawing spells are for. In that match, the critters aren't there for drawing cards.

Dozer

[Kasuras]

Dozer's point is a very important one for people to understand how this deck functions.

I won't quote him on his post, because all of his post is important here and I trust that the readers can scroll up besides to scrolling down.


This deck basically has 3 ways to "win": (Not counting Y. Will, or conditional things like Truthing an opposing DSC)

-Circu
-Cutpurse
-DSC

The choice for either of these options are dependant on your situation, the opponent's situation and your opponent's deck. Having one of these 3 options usually is enough to warrant a win, however; not every card is, sufficiently, able to finish the task at hand. A few examples:

-When facing fish and fish having an established board position: you probably want to go for a protected Tinker, and if you're facing U/w you need extra protection for your DSC. However: if fish hasn't developed a strong board position yet; it would probably be best to go for the Cutpurse plan.

-Against combo, you usually want a fast DSC but with having enough mana open to counter at least 1 spell when casting the Tinker.


The 3 kill mechanics usually also ask for a different drawing approach:

-If you're going for Cutpurse, then it would be best to just sit back and get as much counters as possible in your hand.

-Circu: you probably want to Tutor early to get Circu, but hold back a bit with your spells because you want to use them for later. Then chainspelling your card quality cards.

-DSC: You usually want to tutor aggresively.


As an update: I'm currently testing the following changes, at advice of Liam_K:

-1 Island
-2 Mana Leak
-2 Thirst for Knowledge

+1 Underground Sea
+2 Duress
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Skeletal Scrying

I'm still TESTING these changes however, and I can't say how they work out. Crucible seems to be a very good addition to the deck however.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Dark Confidant

you successfully fail at finding something better than Cutpurse.

Just drop it, people. AmbivalentDuck apparently doesn't understand that Confidant needs an aggro-base behind it, something that can finish the game before he becomes a liability. This deck does neither need nor want El Confidante. This deck wants a creature it can sit behind all game long, which Confidant is not. Let him ramble.

So you're saying that JDizzle's results with Confidant in Belcher are fictitious?  Dark Confidant, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Goblin Welder do not constitute an "aggro-base."  What the Confidant did there, it would do here.  This deck can rapidly cycle/tutor into a Tinker and resolve it no later than turn 4 with Mana Leak/Drain and Fow backup.  This is parallel to the Belcher plan in that both decks expect to resolve a key spell through/despite any measures a controlish opponent sets up.  The difference between playing this as control and combo-control comes down to one card choice and the role you chose to play.  I'll be happy to demonstrate this on MWS using the mirror match.  (One plays Confidant, the other Cutpurse).  The additional freedom to go the combo route would also help against aggro matchups.  I expect U/W Vial Fish to smash the Cutpurse build, for instance.

Edit: Fixed a stupid mistype

[Dozer]

Dark Confidant, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Goblin Welder do not constitute an "aggro-base."  What the Confidant did there, it would do here.  This deck can rapidly cycle/tutor into a Tinker and resolve it no later than turn 4 with Mana Leak/Drain and Fow backup.  This is parallel to the Belcher plan in that both decks expect to resolve a key spell through/despite any measures a controlish opponent sets up.

To paraphrase Brassman (recently on #TMD): "Belcher works like Stompy". He's right, and the comparison is especially adequate in this discussion. Belcher throws all disruption out of the window and goes right for the throat by design. Belcher can't play the "control role", that's next to impossible for the deck. It doesn't really get more "aggro" (as in "aggressive") than that. The Belcher deck is the penultimate "aggro-base". Also, how many Confidants did JD have? One, in the board. It is not his main draw engine.

This deck's game plan is NOT to resolve a 4th turn Tinker with backup. Sure, it does it if it happens to happen, but so does every other deck that includes Tinker/ DSC. This deck's game plan is to strangle the opponent, similar to Fish, but it does so on the back of a single card (or two if you include Circu). So, you want to resolve Cutpurse, not Tinker. If you understand my argument why Ophidian is worse than Cutpurse, you should immediately realize why Confidant doesn't belong either: They do nothing to your opponent. This deck rather wants Hyppie than Confidant.

A U/B Cutpurse deck like this will never be combo-control. Just having Tinker in a deck doesn't make it a combo-control deck. The primary game plan is what counts. And that plan is hitting with Cutpurse to never let your opponent get ahead, or even away. You are not trying to force your win when you play this deck. You just let it happen, two life at a time... You can't do that with Confidant. If you have ever lost (or almost lost) games to your own Mana Crypt in 4cC, you know why Confidant isn't good for a deck that wants to sit tight and do its controllish thing. (Hint: It kills you.)

You are basically saying "I want Confidant to find Tinker". There are so many better ways to do that, I'm not going to list them. If you want to play a Tinker-centered deck, don't play this one.

The additional freedom to go the combo route would also help against aggro matchups.

The "combo route"? Dude, you have 1 friggin' Tinker in the deck! That's not a "combo route". That's not even a waysign on the intersection! Tinker helps against aggro decks (those with creatures, anyway) and Fish, correct, but Tinker itself is no "combo route", especially for a deck that has no beef being combo. Oh, and how does a "combo route" that costs you something between two and five life a turn help against aggro? When you find the Tinker for Colossus you will still have Confidant in play. It's a mandatory ability. You can't even Tinker it away like Mana Crypt.

In other news, you may be right on the U/W Fish match. Or maybe not, but I call you out on that mirror match. If one deck has Cutpurse, the other has Confidant, which deck draws more cards? Would you block Cutpurse with Confidant? No, well then, your opponent draws two cards a turn and you only one. And you lose life in the process. Cutpurse vs Confidant makes Cutpurse read "Target opponent discards a card and takes 2 + 2.3 damage."
(I'm pretty sure you will answer this with "but Confidant comes down faster". I call shenanigans. If you play Confidant, and I play Cutpurse on my turn after that, you're ahead one card. Cutpurse equals that out with one hit.)

As a closing word, nowhere have I ever discredited JDizzle's success with Confidant in Belcher.

Dozer

[lordmayhem]

The "combo route"? Dude, you have 1 friggin' Tinker in the deck! That's not a "combo route". That's not even a waysign on the intersection! Tinker helps against aggro decks (those with creatures, anyway) and Fish, correct, but Tinker itself is no "combo route", especially for a deck that has no beef being combo. Oh, and how does a "combo route" that costs you something between two and five life a turn help against aggro? When you find the Tinker for Colossus you will still have Confidant in play. It's a mandatory ability. You can't even Tinker it away like Mana Crypt.

I think that what he means by the combo route is the chaining of Brainstorms and Impulses when Circu is in play, which isn't a combo since it doesn't kill. Its an interaction, albeit a destructive one.

I played around with the deck for a couple of minutes between studying and I have a few conclusions.

• First off, Circu is awesome. Congrats Kasuras you were right, he's a house. 
• Second, I feel that 1 Circu isn't enough. Of course I haven't tested it for as long as you have, but I liked what happened with Circu so much that I feel that 2 must be played
• I'm not sure, but I got this feeling that Deep Analysis would be a good spell to Drain into. Plus it flashbacks, triggering Circu twice. Have you given this a shot Kasuras? If you have, how did it perform?
• Cutpurses don't feel as good as they should be since they have no evasion (and no, Confidant wouldn't make a fine replacement either  ) and Vintage is currently loaded with goblins, welders, monkeys, wretches, fish creatures, hounds, zombies, colossi, titans and other robots... If it hits a couple of times, you're going to make a bad situation (for your opponent) worse, but you won't be doing anything spectacular if he already has a good hand. Just an observation.

[Kasuras]

Ambivalentduck: could you please drop the Confidant argument? It's not going to work here. It has been proven, it has been theorized and all that done by numerous people. You are wrong, now please don't bring it up anymore. Thank you.

Dozer: indeed, this deck's gameplan usually isn't to go for a Tinker asap. However: if the matchup and situation asks for it, then that is definitely the gameplan. I also think you overestimate Cutpurse; sure, it's great. But it's not great in every situation, therefore I have 3 kill conditions. Therefore, the

U/W Fish match

is a flawed argument because, as said, you're going to win on the back of DSC here. I think that perhaps 2 out of 10 times you want to go for the Cutpurse route there.

    * First off, Circu is awesome. Congrats Kasuras you were right, he's a house.  Smile
    * Second, I feel that 1 Circu isn't enough. Of course I haven't tested it for as long as you have, but I liked what happened with Circu so much that I feel that 2 must be played
    * I'm not sure, but I got this feeling that Deep Analysis would be a good spell to Drain into. Plus it flashbacks, triggering Circu twice. Have you given this a shot Kasuras? If you have, how did it perform?
    * Cutpurses don't feel as good as they should be since they have no evasion (and no, Confidant wouldn't make a fine replacement either  Mad) and Vintage is currently loaded with goblins, welders, monkeys, wretches, fish creatures, hounds, zombies, colossi, titans and other robots... If it hits a couple of times, you're going to make a bad situation (for your opponent) worse, but you won't be doing anything spectacular if he already has a good hand. Just an observation.

No. 1 Circu is enough because you are usually just tutoring for it if you need it, and you don't want multiples. Why not? Well, that's easy: you play Circu with a plan in mind. (see previous reply of mine) And if you take "lots of removal" into consideration for that plan, then Circu perhaps isn't the right plan. And thanks, hope that more people will see the.. darkness.

Deep Analysis: would be put in the place of Thirsts, but I'm already testing Crucible and Scrying there. Do you think Anal is better than those 2? I sincerely doubt it.

Well, if Cutpurse is not the correct plan for that moment.. you take one of the other 2 that are best suited for that moment. It's really important to understand that this deck actually is "3 decks": 3 different kill routes and draw plans, all of them differently suited for a different situation.

[lordmayhem]

Do you think Anal is better than those 2? I sincerely doubt it.

Congratulations on making me burst out laughing like crazy in class  :lol:

Anyway, I think Deep Analysis would be good if you're going to be using more than one Circu, which you disagree with. Keep in mind that I haven't done more than 10 minutes of testing with this deck, so I don't have as much testing background as you, anyway when Circu came out and I started playing Brainstorms and Impulses, I ripped FoW and Yawg Win from the top and that was just so cool. I guess I'll be building a variant when I have the time because I have a different play style. 

Also, CoW is really good. I play two in another build of mine and its really golden. You recycle the fetches (thinning your deck and making your topdecks way better) and you reuse Strip effects. What's not to like?

When I tried out your deck, I went
-2 TfK
+1 SkS
+1 Circu

The SkS didn't seem to be so amazing. What I'm interested in trying out is 2 Circu, and maybe Intuition-AK / Intuition-Deep Analysis. No harm in messing around 

[Dozer]

The difference between playing this as control and combo-control comes down to one card choice and the role you chose to play.  I'll be happy to demonstrate this on MWS using the mirror match.  (One plays Confidant, the other Cutpurse).

I call you out on that mirror match.

*sigh*

Dozer^: alright, finished
Dozer^: Klep, you may have to demote me
Anusien: You don't get demoted
Anusien: You DO however get ridiculed for validating AmbivalentDuck's existence

Basically, that's all the story right there. Confidant (him) won vs Cutpurse (me) 5-1 games, with both playing the following identical list that Kasuras was kind enough to PM to me:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
5 Island
1 Strip Mine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dimir Cutpurse/ Dark Confidant
1 Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Impulse
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker

//  Sideboard:
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Crucible of Worlds
SB:  1 Psychatog
SB:  3 Energy Flux
SB:  3 Engineered Explosives
SB:  1 Claws of Gix
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Counterspell
SB:  1 Echoing Truth
SB:  2 Darkblast

Confidant or Cutpurse were in every opening hand, that's what we agreed on since the point was to compare Cutpurse and Confidant. I don't think the actual game logs interest anyone (though I have them on request), so I will give a summary of the six games here and then tell you what I learned and which lessons we can draw out of this, if any. (I am on the play for the first three games, AmbivalentDuck for the other three.)

Game 1: I have a Wasteland, Jet opening, he answers with Swamp, Pearl, Confidant. I could have Forced but didn't, which in hindsight is obviously wrong because I don't have a blue source and fail to draw one next turn either. He later gets a Darkblast with Cunning Wish while I have Cutpurse which attacks into Confidant and both die. He plays another Confidant and Impulses and Brainstorms, while I FoW his Ancestral and he Leaks my Fact. After he has Wasteland and Strip Mine, I topdeck Tinker on an empty hand which I obviously do not resolve and Confidant kills me (instead of him, heh).

Game 2: I start off with Island, Ducky goes "Island, Sapphire". I Force the Sapphire and he Mysticals for Ancest. He doesn't get a land for the next couple of turns and I build up lands with multiple Leak backup -- looks good. He gets some lands, and at the end of my turn (#11, for those who care), this happens:

0:06:58 [AD] AD sacrifices Polluted Delta
0:07:18 [Dozer] Dozer plays Mystical Tutor from Hand (getting Force of Will)
0:07:22 [AD] <AD> Ok
0:07:26 [AD] AD puts Underground Sea into play from Library
0:07:54 [AD] AD plays Vampiric Tutor from Hand
0:08:23 [Dozer] Dozer plays Brainstorm from Hand
0:08:40 [AD] AD plays Ancestral Recall from Hand
0:08:43 [Dozer] Dozer taps Polluted Delta (getting Island)
0:08:43 [Dozer] Dozer taps Polluted Delta (getting Island)
0:09:05 [Dozer] Dozer plays Mana Leak from Hand
Leak resolves, countering Ancestral.
I resolve Brainstorm, Ducky resolves Vampiric Tutor.

The crucial thing here is that I had to shuffle away the Force I tutored for to Leak the Ancestral, and Ducky gets to untap. He plays Confidant, passes and I play Cutpurse. They trade, and though I can Impulse and Imperial Seal for Ancestral, Ducky Forces through a Scrying for three and Imperial Seals up a Tinker I can't stop. I Ancestral next turn into Lotus and FoF. Neither that nor Impulse and a Brainstorm gets me the Cunning Wish that would fetch Echoing Truth, and DSC kills me. Big frowns. I must have made mistakes in this game, but I can't identify them.

Game 3: I mulligan down to five, one of which is (as in the terms of the games) a Cutpurse. I make a Polluted Delta and say go, and Ducky has Delta, Pearl, Confidant. He continues with Time Walk, Impulse, Vampiric, Ancestral which I try to Drain in vain. He then has triple Brainstorm + shuffle effect in a row, the last of which is a shuffle brought on by Tinker. That's all she wrote.

Game 4 (from here on, Ducky is on the play): He starts with Island, while I have Delta, Pearl. His Swamp yields a Confidant, while I Vampiric for a card I can't remember. While he has Confidant going, I run three Cutpurses in a row into counterspells, and he reveals Will and Time Walk with the Confidant. I can play Demonic for Tinker and Drain his FoF, so I should be in a good position. He Walks which I Force (don't want him to draw two extra cards vs my Tinker), and he plays Demonic Tutor I can't stop (with Will in hand). On my turn, I topdeck Strip Mine for his USea (this was important for keeping him off Will + Walk mana) and play Tinker for DSC.
At this point, I am at 7 life and Ducky is at 11, so Colossus is lethal but Ducky has Will in hand. He does: reveal Fetch with Confidant (no damage), Brainstorm, crack Fetchland, play Sapphire, Will, Walk, Brainstorm. Next turn sees him revealing a Wasteland (no damage), Mystical Tutor for Cunning Wish, Brainstorm, play Cunning Wish for Echoing Truth, returning DSC to my hand. A lot had to come together for that Wish to happen... anyway, I lose.

Game 5: I draw a hand with 3x Cutpurse, 1x Circu, Sapphire, Emerald, Island. If this hand had just a single black mana, it would be very good. Alas, it doesn't! So I mulligan two times, but Ducky lets me draw up to seven again.
We open with just Island, but on my EOT Ducky Ancestrals which I Force, and of course he has the FoW to push it through. His next turn lets Confidant come into play, while all I have is an Imulse. He reveals Skeletal Scrying with Confidant, while I get another Impulse which he answers with a Brainstorm. In my EOT, he Scryings for four which I can Drain, but he untaps, reveals Brainstorm with Confidant and plays an upkeep Mystical for Tinker without a Mox in play. I the play Cutpurse and Impulse with my Drain mana. He Impulses and Brainstorms EOT.
At this point, I hold Force, Cutpurse and Leak as my three cards. I know he has Tinker in hand. He reveals Wasteland with Confidant and plays Mox Ruby. I Leak that, because if he pays he has not enough mana to Tinker. He lets Leak resolve, puts the Ruby into his graveyard, plays Mox Jet and Tinker. I Force, he Drains and with the five Drain mana, he plays Will in his second mainphase.
The correct play would have been to let Ruby resolve and just fight over the Tinker, but I didn't put him on the second Mox. With Will and Drain in his hand, though, neither play could have prevented the Colossus that subsequently beat me after playing Cunnning Wish for Echoing Truth, bouncing my two Cutpurses.

Game 6: I am pissed off. No, seriously, I am! Especially after reading the logs again. Can it be that I am in fact losing to the guy who advocated leaving out Ancestral from a deck he claimed to have playtested? And why is it that I don't get any brokenness, or triple Brainstorm-shuffle-combinations, or any of the singletons Will, Lotus, Cunning Wish or even Circu?
This game, we both mulligan to six. And finally, finally! I get Ancestral in my hand. I am determined to not lose 0-6 even though at this point, I have accepted that I made several mistakes and Confidant is more than annoying when unanswered, and my answers are 4 Cutpurse, 1 Circu and a Cunning Wish I never drew even once. Not very reliable!
Ducky opens with Delta, I open with Delta, Emerald and directly Ancestral, to which he responds with Brainstorm ("wasting" a Fetchland shuffle) but has to let it go unanswered. I FoW his Confidant and keep Leak in hand. On my second turn, I play Brainstorm, draw Lotus and Tinker off it, crack Lotus for BBB, tap Emerald for 1, tap the Sea for blue and play Tinker for Colossus followed by Vampiric Tutor for Force of Will with double Leak in hand and tapped out.
Ducky shows me his hand: Dark Confidant, Yawgmoth's Will, Skeletal Scrying, Imperial Seal. He can either go for Will, Brainstorm or Seal, Scrying to get a Cunning Wish. He decides for the Seal + Scrying way, but it's moot anyway because I draw FoW next turn and he cannot beat double backup. I take a game! The only one. Not really satisfying...

Conclusion: First, some tidbits from our after-game conversation.

<Dozer> I still claim that Confidant doesn't belong in the deck, though
<AD> I agree.
<AD> Darkblast kills it.
<AD> I'm just saying it's better than cutpurse.
<AD> If creature removal dies down, I'd put it back in.
<AD> Fog would playable as a 1B cantrip.
<Dozer> Cutpurse is better against Gifts etc, though
<AD> *nod*
<AD> Having that Mana Leak/Drain up turn 2 is huge.
<AD> I'd actually say that Cutpurse would be bad in the control mirror.
<AD> Let me sub in 4 morphling for Confidant
<AD> Actually, 4 tog
<AD> Seriously, tapping out turn 2-3 is bad.
<Dozer> kinda, yeah
<Dozer> well, I'd have to play against both versions with Gifts

Looking back, playing the games the way we did was not effective. Valid conlusions about the versatility of Cutpurse vs Confidant in the control matchup can't be drawn from this. I must admit that the card advantage from Confidant probably was deciding in the games, because he cantrips vs my Cutpurse while I get nothing from the three-drop which is then wasted energy. On the other hand, looking back it feels like both creatures actually were irrelevant because their effects were overshadowed by brokenness. Feel free to draw your own conclusions, though, maybe I'm just trying to draw a veil over the affair! I still think an active Cutpurse is better against an opponent without blockers, though, in this deck. I have been on the receiving end of Cutpurses already, and it's really strangling.

However, Kasuras has told me that he dropped the creature entirely, because neither Confidant nor Cutpurse was good enough in the long run. I think that is the way to go, although I really like the Cutpurses. Other comments on the deck: Ducky advocated Chain of Vapor instead of Echoing Truth as wish target bounce, and we both felt that the Counterspell in the board really should be Misdirection, or Misdirection might even be main.

I am leaving it at that. I hope you enjoyed this little experiment. AmbivalentDuck, whose posts are not too well received, stood up to his words, and we conversed, played and parted politely. I credit it to the atmosphere of TMD that this is possible. So, thanks all.

Off to get myself horribly drunk because I lost to AmbivalentDuck, but before my writing becomes sl...sl...slurrrryy, i willll lleeaf yyouuuu wis the folovink kwotes *hic*:
 

[00:55] Anusien: Wait, wait. Did you apply optional rule 402.1c?
[00:55] Anusien: The one where he isn't allowed to play Ancestral Recall?

<AD> I'll let you post the results.
<AD> I seem overly skilled at creating flame-bait.

Dozer


/edit: OMG I spent my 400th post on this. Is that significant?

[lordmayhem]

I am glad that Cutpurses got cut, but I must say I'm surprised that Confidant did well (Could it be that the two sitting in my binder are useful after all? Must test!!!). This really ought to be tested against another kind of deck though, rather than the mirror match for the sake of gaining better results.

[Kasuras]

Yes, I've cut the Cutpurses altogether. Why? Because they are usually only useful against control decks. Problem is that those don't exist anymore, we only have combo-control now.

I am starting to think that perhaps Gifts is just plainly better than this. If I look at the deck, now with less enthusiasm and perhaps more objective, I think that this current deck approach is just Psychatog with a longer and dumber kill.

The key to succession is probably a deck that wants to interact instead of trying to just "win" to victory, since Tog, Oath, CS and Gifts are plainly better at doing so. I am however unsure on how to make a deck that wants to interact with Circu in it, I don't see any possibilities at the moment. A counter heavy version of the deck is not a possibility; your options of getting enough counters is limited, your kill is clumsy and I think a version with 12 counters is just not viable in current day's metagame. A 8 counter version is inferior to Gifts..

I am however now talking about U/b. I am starting to believe that another splash is mandatory, but I really wonder whether that would help a flawed deck design.

The conclusion: the deck is good on paper, but I don't think it is any better than Gifts in practice.


Next stop: Savra?

[Lamanai]

A totally random thought:

With a green splash, you could add Gro-Dryads.  It seems like the interaction of the two could be quite strong.  You're playing your spells and attacking their library while watching the Gro-man get bigger.  I guess what I'm getting at is the possibility of gro-tog with Circu.  I know it totally changes the deck, and possibly warrants another thread, but it might warrant some consideration.  A little while ago, I toyed around with Miracle Gro with Erayo, and found it to be fairly decent, but Erayo's nothing compared to Circu.

Anyway, I'm going to put together something and look at it.

[Infernal Spawn]

I played a variant of a deck like this and i came in tenth with it at Hatcher's tourny atthe Beanie.  I had a few people comment about my deck, mostly positive...as a matter of fact i started off  3 and 0 with it, which is kind of good for a mostly untested deck.  I have since changed the deck a little but its pretty solid.  Other than a few play mistakes on my behalf the deck seemed to operate well and was fun to play.  JuggernaughtGO (Travis) suggested that i play 3 Circu...his logic was basicly...u can always pitch him to force if you have to.  I didnt regret running 3 of him at all.  This deck runs almost like fish and to have a 2/3 that eats cards with no extra cost is pretty good to me.  Ask most of my opponents how effective he was.  The nice thing about Circu is that you can eat the top card of your own library and your opponent cant play that card.  My Build (as it stands now)

Creatures:
3 Circu
3 Confidant
1 Psychatog

Drawing:
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Deep Analysis
3 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Top
1 Ancestral Recall
(3 Confidant)

Disruption:
4 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Echoing Truth

The Usuals:
1 Yag Will
1 D Tutor
1 Vamp
1 Mystical
1 Time Walk

Counters:
4 Force
4 Drain

Others:
1 Jitte

Mana Base:
4 Underground Sea
4 Fetch (i used Flooded Strand, cus thats all Dave had to let me use, but Delta is far better of course)
1 Library
4 Island
3 Swamps
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Lotus
1 of each Mox except Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

     I didnt bother counting this, i hope its still 60 (i repeated some cards for the appropriate spot that were serving double duty).  I might add 1 rebuild and 1 tendrils.  I was pretty happy with it.  I had to throw a SB together really fast, so i sort of played with a crap SB, but i did put Darkblast in the side...and its really good in this deck.  I wont say all together its a good card, but its really good in here.  In stalemates i found myself dredging it to eat a card off my opponents very thin library with Circu.  This deck is alot of fun and suprisingly competative. 

Jesse
Nuts and Staff (Off Twice)