Improving Goblins in Vintage

[Smmenen]

Food Chain Goblins got 9th place at SCG Chicago:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=14161

Given the success of this deck in Legacy, is there anything that Vintage can learn to try and improve Goblins in Vintage? What might an optimal list look like? Does Goblins really need Food Chain, or is that just a good Drain target/non threat?

[Machinus]

(FCG Maindeck)

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod

Instants
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast

If this is the kind of hate that it takes for FCG to perform, then I think it has already improved as much as it can.

[Smmenen]

I think those were mistakes.  Look at the SB.  there can't be 8 chalices in a deck.

I will say that I think one lesson from Legacy is that hate cards maindeck is not as good as cards that win, on the whole.  It is a careful balance. 

[cryolyte]

Jason Hall (pilot of the aforementioned 9th place SCG FCG deck) is a teammate of mine.

The corrected decklist should be as follows:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-gang Commander

Enchantments
3 Food Chain

Instants
4 Red Elemental Blast

Legendary Creatures
2 Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker

Basic Lands
4 Mountain

Lands
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Artifact Mutation

For some reason the sideboard was mixed into the main.

[Fubar]

No Blood Moon in the board?  I thought that was one of the first places to start.
 

Does Goblins really need Food Chain, or is that just a good Drain target/non threat?

That is an interesting question.  Does a monocolour build open new doors?  That would allow you to always use the full complement of wastes & free up slots.  The loss of speed in the "chain" might well be substituted with hate.
Goblin Vandal anyone?

[Zomar]

When did goblins stop playing a full set of strips and wastes? Attacking the mana base gave goblins the few additional turns it would need to win. Also the deck seems as if it cut on lands (namely, wastes) for other cards. I don't think this is right. Goblins plays many cards that cost three or more mana. It can't afford to miss a drop within the first few turns. With no general card drawing, getting to 3 mana sources is a must. Of course if you get a lackey, all of this is thrown out the window, but that doesn't justify cutting mana sources, especially one that serve many uses (wastes), in my eyes.

[Liek]

The only thing I don't get about this list is the inclusion of 4 Gempalm Incinerators. Why are so many of these necesary?

Without Green for Food Chain this deck can possibly play Blue for Recall, Walk, and possibly Hurkyl's Recall or Energy Flux. Just and idea, but probably not a good one.

[Dralock]

I have played goblin food  chain through many incarnations. From the original list, to the one presented by Vegeta in the primer and then with the recent addition of kiki-jiki and goblin vandal. Through all of it I would have to say that food chain makes the deck powerful, in the same way as throwing yawgmoth's will in slaver. Mana acceleration is without a doubt the strongest part of Food Chain Goblins, letting you turn useless gobbos in to good ones (matron in to ringleader to dig for four) which is anything but a non-threat.

Unfortunately, whenever I have played FCG, I have found myself wanting more tools to combat my opponents, and have switched to R/G.dec (many different forms) for better success. So here are my suggestions for FCG in the current meta:

1. Goblin King - an excellent addition to the deck if aggro is your concern. The king is now a goblin and multiples give bonuses to each other. This is relevant because it makes your threats harder for wishboards to handle with a single pyroclasm.

2. kiki-jiki should be run as a one-of always, and matron counts should be upped in lists to at least three. Utility is key for goblins, matron helps this out tremendoulsy

Gah, work calls, more later.

[knickers]

Perhaps the use of Root Maze would improve goblins ...
This list is really off the top of my head ... we've had people play similar decks at local tournaments, and Root Maze has proved to be pretty good ..

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Recruiter
2x Skirk Prospector
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Welder
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4x Root Maze
3x Red Elemental Blast

1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
3x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Karplusan Forest
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt

Sideboard Possibilities ...
Chalice Of The Void
Null Rod
Pyroblast
Artifact Mutation
Gempalm Incenerator
Naturalize
Goblin King

[UR]

That is an interesting question.  Does a monocolour build open new doors?  That would allow you to always use the full complement of wastes & free up slots.  The loss of speed in the "chain" might well be substituted with hate.
Goblin Vandal anyone?

I don't think the hate will compensate for the loss of speed you'll suffer from cutting the Foodchain. The 'combo-aggro' part is what makes the deck fast enough IMO. Just playing some red men with hate is inferior to other decks that can do the same I think. Hating the metagame is useful, but there are other decks out there that can do a better job at it methinks.

Perhaps the Rootmaze is interesting. I'm toying around with this deck for somebody I know and this may certainly be an interesting card for the deck.

Also, doesn't the deck suffer a lot from the 'anti-welder-hysteria' in the form of Darkblast, Lava Dart, etc. etc? Would it be a good idea to keep this in the back of my mind (read: is the Chalice necessary)?

[Beatdown]

Is goblin grenade too unpredictable to run? Five damage for one mana is pretty good I hear...

[Zomar]

Is goblin grenade too unpredictable to run? Five damage for one mana is pretty good I hear...

goblin grenade and reckless abandon are both really good in goblin sligh as a finisher, however in this deck the finisher is the combo so it's not really necessary. goblin grenades can be dead cards at times (same with food chain obviously), as usually they are only good if you can burn your opponent out in that turn.

[Duncan]

Maybe these are some stupid questions, but heck, i'm gonna ask them:
1. Why is the Kiki-Jiki played? since you can only copy your own guys.. is it that useful?
2. Why run only 3 food chain? is that also the reason not to play elvish spirit guide?
3. Isn't naturalize better than artifact mutation? it gets rid of nasty chills and engeineerd plagues..

[dend51]

If you are looking for a card like goblin grenade, I have been playing with beserks and I have been thinking about fling to finish people off. Beserk has won me alot of games and people do not see it coming.

[Dante]

3. Isn't naturalize better than artifact mutation? it gets rid of nasty chills and engeineerd plagues..

You're far more likely to run into artifacts that you are Chill or Engineered Plague, both of which will rarely get played in a serious Vintage metagame because they do very little in a non-Goblins meta.

[The Atog Lord]

Oath is much more likely than Chill or Engineered Plague.

[Komatteru]

Oath is much more likely than Chill or Engineered Plague.

Oath is a significant problem at that.

[Smmenen]

I am hardly convinced that Goblins can't beat Oath.

I've seen what Goblins can do in Legacy and I am well aware of the constraints in Vintage.

But if Oath doesn't have turn one Oath, I can see Goblins easily winning.  And Oath only has turn one oath like 4 out of 10 games. 

[Mark_Story]

While I was playing goblins, I dreaded being paired up against oath.  It is an extremely hard matchup.  Their men are huge, and if they know the matchup they counter the key goblins, puke out an oath, and sexy lady and beat you with it.  There is little to nothing you can do.  naturalize gets countered and your win conditions made them win faster.

Test it.  Goblins can't beat oath, not with any regularity.  Its so hard it's not even worth it.  Even without a first turn oath it is an uphill struggle.   If they counter your lackeys, ringleaders, and recruiters.  They not only shut you off your draw engine and combo engine, they also cut a huge swath through you mana production (lackey).  Furthermore, while they are draining/leaking your men, they are using their turns to dig closer to an oath.  With all the tutors and dig effects they will find one, and you won't be able to stop it.  The worst thing is they don't even need to find an orchard.  You have to play men to win.

As for why kiki-jiki gets played he is one of the most randomly broken cards in the deck.  Hmmm, what's better than one ringleader.  Oooh, how about a free one every turn, and I get to draw 4 cards each turn!.  Or siege-gang's bringing their friends along! Remember the only thing better than one goblin is 2. That's why he's played.

I've been finding legacy goblins far more consistent than FCG can be. However, vial goblins have no combo finisher outside of pyromancer, which lessens the deck's impact I think.  However, in a largely scrubby field, vial goblins could do extremely well.

[sean1i0]

The one thing that I can say with quite a bit of certainty on this discussion at this point is that the inclusion of the Food Chain combo is a must.  That is the only thing that, when combined with something like null rod, can give goblins any semblance of the speed needed to beat fast combo in the time that disruption gives.

[Dralock]

The one thing that I can say with quite a bit of certainty on this discussion at this point is that the inclusion of the Food Chain combo is a must.  That is the only thing that, when combined with something like null rod, can give goblins any semblance of the speed needed to beat fast combo in the time that disruption gives.

Yes, I quite agree, as I said above. The combo is just absolutely necessary, even if it comes up less than every game. Oath has a huge advantage over FCG, being that it can pretty much just wait around killing your critters until it drops oath and then its game over in two turns. For this matchup (and I have played it a lot) I generally always go for the most agressive game possible. Mulling till you see lackey or other one drops is probably the best idea, and pray that they don't run tinker-colossus as you don't have much of a game against the iron giant.

ok, to add to my points up top:

3. Play Jitte in the side. Its an excellent card in fish, its an excellent card in goblins. the timetable it gives you vs other extreemly powerful decks is amazing. Dropping extra goblins per turn is good, but when you are on a clock vs gifts or oath, it is also good to be able to life yourself past the tendrils kill, or be able to take out akroma (which isn't all that hard).

4. Play Vial or rod main. Food chain should run at 4 copies. Putting rod main is a good idea at a 3 of, or vial at a 3 of. Dropping a vial first turn is just good. In a stax environment its pointless of course, but you should beat stax out if they don't run balance.

5. Its time to revamp the goblins in FCG. The lackeys, vandals (if you run them), matrons etc make for a very potent combination, but the actual goblins used are probably not the best for the current meta. Goblin Goon alone can ruin a fish players day, and puts a serious clock on gifts and oath.

6. More power? This is the only point that I have been debating with regular players of FCG. Throwing more power in to the deck is starting to look better and better. Ancient tombs have been played by many people, but having two or three extra moxen can be game breaking as well. Considering you need only one mountain to oplay over half of the normal goblins on the list, and the sheer power of an early matron/ringleader, it leads me to believe that powering out these higher-cc creatures is probably an excellent idea.

Thats pretty much it for now, I'm still up for discussion. This is one of my favorite decks to play casually, even though I'll take it in to a competitive event from time to time.

[cryolyte]

@Dralock: If you run Vial or Jitte, then you can't run null rod. I do see where a jitte could be helpful against akroma, but I don't think it's worth cutting out the null rods for. Same with adding more moxen, methinks, although the prospect of dropping first turn ringleaders make me salivate.


I think if you keep Food Chain in (which I wholeheartedly support for the purpose of having a combo kill), then I think root maze is out of the question. That said, I think one of FCG's biggest weaknesses, as evidenced by what has been postred previously, is it's inability to deal with big men (and women) namely Akroma, Colossus, SotN, etc. Red or green really don't have the ability to do this. I have considered running white for Swords, actually, with serenity in the board for stax. Of course, this would nullify any chance of running Food Chain, unless instead of Taigas we ran savannah to keep food chain in, or plateau to ditch the food chain. The foothills would get any of the above. Blue is also a consideration, but less reliable than swords I think, since bounce only delays the creature coming back (oath brainstorms and oaths again). Works well on colossus though.

Darkblast I think isn't much of an issue. Yes, it kills lackey, but from where I stand I think Goblin Welder has lost a lot of it's popularity to that Gifts Ungiven card, so I don't think darkblast is going to become that big of an addition for now.

Berserk is an intersting idea. Half of me says "win more", but the other half is saying "win faster"

Maze of Ith could work for the creature problem as well.

I would hate to lose artifact mutation. That cards owns smokestack.

[dend51]

I should clarify when beserk is being used, it is not really a "win more" (but it obviously could be). it is used in the games when you dont combo out. These games do happen, when you only have 4-5 goblins out and one is a Piledriver then the beserk is huge, you can beserk your Piledriver and win the game. I was unsure at first, but then I played with it and it has won me more games than games where it was a dead draw (not very often, you can even kill creatures...but you will take alot more damage, but sometimes it is worth it).

[UR]

I do see where a jitte could be helpful against akroma, but I don't think it's worth cutting out the null rods for.

By the time it will become useful you are probably dead. Remember that the toothpick doesn't get any extra counters if you are fighting Akroma with red men. Akroma has first strike and protection from red... so you will need no less than 6 counters before Akroma hits play... if you have pulled that off, you could already have won.

[cryolyte]

@dend51: I see your point. I do notice that Food Chain is considered by most to be the "must-counter" card in the deck. Against control decks, I would sometimes use Food Chain as force-bait simply to resolve piledriver, warchief, or lackey, depending on game-state (I'm not walking into drain with it though!). So, in this sense, berserk could be used to further the aggro game-plan. There are no tutors (save the matron) so this strategy would be really hit or miss.

@UR: Yes that's an excellent point that I didn't consider. I was too focused on the not-being-able-to-run-null-rod aspect 

[RThomas]

I chose to pilot a version of Vial Goblins at SCG Chicago in October, and didn't do too well with it.  Besides obvious design flaws that were overlooked (I formed the deck within 48 hours of the tournament; the saying "don't change decks before tourney time" definitaly holds true), I found that I missed a few cards that I would have otherwise run in the standard FCG build.

(I can't link to my list on SCG at this time, will try to later)

Truth be told, I can't say that I prefer Vial to Food Chain at this time.  Perhaps if Vintage were a turn slower, it might be optimal.  All those times that I'd rather be playing a turn one Lackey or Fanatic, Vial basically gave my opponent a free turn to do whatever they wanted.  My primary aim with it was to improve my Drain matchups, while at the same time, slow down Oath a turn by Vialing in my men at their EOT (which obviously didn't matter, since I didn't see it).  So with that, I'm not all that sure I would want to have Vial over Chain and Null Rod at this time.

Of smaller note, I did experiment with Naturalize in the main instead of Pyroblast or Artifact Mutation (again, the theory being that it would improve my Oath matchup a wee bit, with a side effect of having a Dragon silver bullet.  These were both decks I kept in mind in preparation.)  In both of my Workshop matchups, they mattered little to none at all.  I was largely unimpressed with it.

No Blood Moon in the board?  I thought that was one of the first places to start.

For the board, it's really between playing Blood Moon or Artifact Mutation.  Having both in play at the same time isn't good (though I'm not sure how often this situation may come up.)

[Metman]

From my experience if Food Chain hits the table I win, it's as simple as that.  It creates too much momentum not be auto inlcuded.  Also from my experience the Lackey is the card that most control decks initially want to keep off the table.  Turn one Forced Lackey.  Turn two drop Food Chain and win if it isn't Drained.  Root Maze is a bad idea, you want to combo ASAP and having to wait a turn to untap your lands and Mox is a terrible thing. 
Why would you run white to play swords, when you could stick with red/green and play Gempalm?  If you face Oath and they get Oath out your're humped if you don't already have 5 gobs already.  Playing Swords seems a waste plus you would lose the best piece of combo in the deck in FC and ESG now becomes nearly useless since no green is played.
On the Berserk note, don't you have to play Berserk pre attack, and therefore wouldn't double Piledriver's power after all other goblins attack?

[Mark_Story]

Oracle text for Berserk is:

Play Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At end of turn, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.

Berserk needs to be plaed before combat damage step.  So if can be done after the piledriver gets his goblin-team-face-smashing bonus.

[UR]

@RTT
If other Vintage decksa are a turn too fast, why not slow them down a turn? Rootmaze could do an admirable job at this despite Metman's arguement against the card (which is probably mute in Vial Goblin). But there are a lot other cards that can give you that vital extra turn you need.

[Duncan]

In the top list i saw only 3 food chain? My reasoning might be that you don't want to draw 2 of them and you can win without it, but is that why it's done? From the other sight, resolving food chain is almost game, and with the first one likely to be countered, a second one might come in handy..