(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[forests failed you]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10479.html

Okay, I wrote this thing because I've been getting a lot of PMs from people asking how they should build their CS decks.  This is basically an updated primer for Slaver, and discusses card choices and how the deck matches up against other key decks in the field.  If anybody out there is considering playing Slaver in Chicago, especially if they are new to the deck, I would definitely advise taking a look at this article. 

BTW, I may have gone a little overboard talking about how good Gorilla Shaman is; but I don't think that it is completely unwarranted.

[Disburden]

This was great, thanks for the article. I did have a few questions, since you're an expert on the deck:

1). You said you moved to two Citadels main. I loved citadel but people just seem to not use it anymore, to me not using it is a mistake though. I do, however, wondering if running two is too many? You had to cut down to three basic lands for this. Isn't this bad in a lot of matchups, cutting your basics?

2) No Library of Alexandria. Do you really think this card is no longer warranted in the deck? I see it more and more, people cut this card out of the deck and only run Tolarian as the powerful land. I remember you saying somewhere that this was only needed in the control meta, where Library is a house. But isn't every meta a control meta? Most decks are powered by Drain and Force of will.

3) You don't run Gifts. How do you feel this card really performs in the deck? is it also obsolete? I found it useful in slim situations, but not often.

[forests failed you]

Well to respond directly;

Both Library and Gifts are great cards, and I feel they could rotate into the list at any time.  And in fact they often appear in my lists.  However, right now I feel that Library is slow.  Especially against Show and Fish.  I cut it to make room for the second Darksteel Citadel.  Which brings me to your next point.  I think dubs Citadel is a must right now.  Multiple Gorilla Shamans is no longer a big secret beknown only to the Vintage elite metagamers.  I expect that every Slaver deck will be playing at least one, if not two in Chicago.  This means if you want to weld in the mirror, you must play this card.  Also, Citadel as I pointed out in the article can be pitched to TKF, and it powers up Academy, among other things.

Also, if one wishes to incorporate Gifts it requires major overhalls with regards to the maindeck.  When I play gifts I also want Burning Wish, Recoup and Vamp MD.  This takes away from the open slots in the deck and makes it difficult to play other card draw (which I personally prefer) such as FOF.  I have found that some number of Welders and Utility have to go.  I agree it is good, but it pushes your curve up and weakens your matchup against Stax and Fish.  I am also not completely convinced that it improves your control match up enough to warrant its inclusion.

However, every given metagame deserves examination.  You can bet that if I were playing in New England LOA would be in my deck.  i thnk three basics is enough, especially because you have two citadels.  That is Five lands immune to waste effects.

[Green Knight]

Also, if one wishes to incorporate Gifts it requires major overhalls with regards to the maindeck.  When I play gifts I also want Burning Wish, Recoup and Vamp MD.  This takes away from the open slots in the deck and makes it difficult to play other card draw (which I personally prefer) such as FOF.  I have found that some number of Welders and Utility have to go. 

Just because you want to overhaul the deck to incorporate Gifts does not mean you have to, I really can’t see Burring Wish and Recoup in the deck… but never mind that.
Don’t forget that with Gifts you can simply find only 2 cards, and have them shipped directly to the grave. This has been, and can be key with Welder.
Yes it does take up a utility slot, but it has been well worth it in my eyes.

[Xenoben187]

It was a good article Brian,  I was surprised though that you didn't note that CS has almost 5 spots open to incorporate metagame calls.  I understand that you much prefer GShaman and that kind of stuff but Slaver isn't still around today because of cards like Shaman or Echoing Truth, it's around because those other 55 cards do what they are supposed to do more efficiently than any other 55 cards in Vintage right now and those other 5 cards just help you execute.  I also am a huge proponent of LoA and was dissapointed to not see it even mentioned.

Your matchup advice is very good for people who don't know how to play those matchups though I board a bit less than you.  How do you board against dragon and the likes of that?  I feel dragon is atleast tier 2 at the moment if not tier 1.

[Luiggi]

Great article, Brian. Can you provide some more SB'ing guidelines for other popular matchups, like the mirror, various Fish strategies, and possible something like R/G Beats or Mono-Red Hate?

Luiggi

[MoxMonkey]

CS Mirrors are about who goes broken Early game our how much you know your deck.  Theres no real advice anyone can give you other than play with the deck and test it out and you'll learn more from that than reading anything anyone could write.  I also live in New England and LOA is just to powerful in the mirror for me to ever think about leaving my list.  I have been running 3 Basic islands and 1 Darksteel Citadel forever and it seems to do the trick.   if your heading to Chicago and expect the workshop in numbers you can bump it to 4, or use 2 Citadels.    I also miss that you didn't leave us some other SB choices you left out but I think we can all figure out whats good in our own meta but all in all really good primer.

[Luiggi]

I wasn't really asking about how to play the mirror, but rather what he sides out/in for the mirror...

Luiggi

[forests failed you]

To be honest the article was pretty lengthy and I was afraid they wouldn't print it if I made it any longer!  I opted to talk specifically about my specific list and the cards I chose and why I chose them.  I don't disagree with any of you that LoA is great, nor that putting Pentavus and Slaver in the yard Via gifts isn't an impressive play.  To be honest I've tested it all, and the list I put on SCG is the one that has proved to put up the most consistent results in general. 

I am not playing LoA right now for a few reasons.  Firstly, I've found that in most match ups where I am on the play I want to get my stuff in play right away.  Especially against Fish, you can't just hold onto your Moxes and try to draw cards.  You will get boned.  However, if I were in New England I would probably have a list similar to the one Samite Healer usually plays.  However, in the Michigan and Especially Chicago area (Which I had in mind SCG Chicago when I wrote the article), this isn't necessarily the case.  There is a lot of Shop and a lot of CHALICE OF THE VOID.

As far as Gifts is concerned, I am usually just happier to have FOF in my hand, especially in the mirror match.  Gifts help a lot when you are already ahead, when you can put your opponent in a situation where he has to give you cards that help you, or when you are already ready to Slaver lock.  FOF says look at the top five put the best one in your hand.  You always get the exact card of the bunch that helps you the most.  In my opinion Gifts underperforms in a deck that isn't specifcally designed to give an opponent NO GOOD OPTION, such as getting Recoup and Burning Wish.  Slaver, just isn't designed to do that, nor does it have the space.  However, this is just my opinion on the subject, one man's trash is another man's treasure, I suppose.

Also, I don't think that Gorilla Shaman is a 'metagame' slot anymore.  I tried to make the case for him as best as I could as part of the actual backbone of the deck.  Shaman is as important to CS as Welder is.  Okay, Okay, I know that sounds like a stretch but I ALWAYS want Shaman in my opening hand, much more so than Welder.  Welder usually doesn't really get to work until the mid game.  Albiet he is broken when you have Lotus.  I didn't have enough space to get into specific theory and plays, but one of the other reasons that I play two Citadel is so that I can play my Lotus into Chalice of the Void for zero and then use the Citadel to weld it in again.  This is a HUGE play, as everybody knows Lotus is far and away the best card in the game, and I for one try to use it as much as possible.  (Even when my opponent has Chalice on the board). 

In the Mirror Match I board out -1 Echoing Truth, -1 Fire/Ice, -1 Mindslaver, -1 Goblin Welder, -1 Fact or Fiction.  And bring in +1 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Pyrite Spellbomb. 

The match up is all about cards in hand and Tinkering for Triskellion.  If you do that, you win.  The Spellbombs are good because you can get them down early to ensure that they don't go wild with Shamans and Welders, essentially you can slip them down before your opponent can set up a counterwall.  Also, if you are winning you can pitch them to TFK in order to have more counterspells.  REBS attempt to shut down your oppoents Thirsts, Tinker, and re active Mana Drains.

Against U/W Fish I take out -1 Mindslaver, -4 Mana Drain, - 1 FOF, -1 Echoing Truth and bring in + 3 REB, +2 Pyrite Spellbomb, +1 Darksteel Colossus +1 Rack and Ruin.  Mana Drain sucks in this match up.  They play Chalice and Vial and beat down with uncounterable man lands and ninjas.  Its a fucking nightmare.  Rebs at least kill their guys and let you live long enough to start doing stupid things like recurring Spellbomb or Trisk and eventually setting up for a Slaver Kill.  Or, you can go the early Darksteel Tinker route.

Against U/G Fish I take out -1 FOF, - 1 Fire/Ice. -1 Mana Drain, -1 Echoing Truth, -1 Welder, -1 Mindslaver, and bring in +1 Darksteel Colossus, +2 Stifle, +2 Pyrite Spellbomb, +1 Rack and Ruin.  Mindslaver is much weaker against aggro decks than it is against combo, control or prision.  I like to bring in answers to their threats that are advantageous plays for me.  Such as Rack and ruin to hit Chalice of the Void and Aether Vial.  Also, Stilfe is nice in this matchup because it stops Madness creatures and all sorts of other activated abilities.  Also, unlike UW Fish, this deck aside from randomness like bouner or truth, has very little way to deal with early Colossus.

Anyways, I hope I answered some of the questions.

Cheers,
Brian

[Arvid]

1a. You play answers (Fire/Ice, Echoing Truth, 2x Gorilla Shaman) where i play 4 Duress. What do you think of it? I always want to improve and toy around so getting your input would be nice.

1b. If you think answers are better than duresses (which I think you'll answer, just want to know why) would you still think so if your meta was filled with combo?

[warble]

1b. If you think answers are better than duresses (which I think you'll answer, just want to know why) would you still think so if your meta was filled with combo?

No, duress is a great card against combo, and fire/ice and echoing truth are dead in that matchup.

With regards to maindecking 2 Gorilla Shaman, I have found 1 to be more than adequate when coupled with echoing truth.  The issue with chalice is dealt with by the combination, so running 2 Shaman is really weakening the stax matchup.  Your statement that stax can be brought down to a first turn force backed by a turn 2 mana drain is equivalent to saying, "draw your black lotus in the opening hand", although that might be the ideal draw, the fact is a threat is probably going to slip through and at that point rack and ruin will be a much stronger play than gorilla shaman (the reason rack&ruin has been a maindeck consideration for most cs players).  Shaman never hits the right STAX lock pieces, because you're under mana denial it's hard enough to take a sol ring down.  Also, interesting take with the pyrite spellbomb, but if you were going that route wouldn't another rack and ruin serve, again, a stronger purpose?  The fact that CS runs red means the sideboard against stax is very strong, I doubt that pyrite spellbomb is the type of sideboard bomb you want to draw ever.  I have run gorilla shaman in CS for over eight months now, and I can promise you one thing, it's not a two-of.

Edit: Except in the mirror.  There, gorilla shaman and lava dart rule the world.

[TheOrangePet]

Great article!

I agree w/playing 2x Shaman fully and am glad someone is finally endorsing it for CS. As far as running 2x Citadel, I can see it being good, but it seems like a meta call to me.

Fire/Ice and Truth are proven to be fine cards as well and their inclusion is certainly warranted, but I prefer R+R for the huge tempo it provides VS Stax.

[Sephiroth_FFVII]

First of all I would like to say this was a great article and I enjoyed reading it.

My question is this...

You discussed the Oath matchup only while you were describing your card choices. I was wondering why you didn't discuss this matchup as a whole category as you did with the others.

And...If it had to do with the article lenth as you metioned earlier, would you please talk about the matchup here a little bit and include sideboarding plans. I am asking this because there are lots of oath players in my area. Thanks a bunch. 

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Brian is right about the 2 shamans. Right now, the top 3 decks are stax(all varients), Gifts, and Slaver. In your matchup vs. slaver, shaman is KEY, and against Gifts, attacking their manabase is HUGE. Plus, postboard, they bring in pithing needle, which shaman deals with just fine. vs. stax, he nets you board advantage. You gain a permanent to sack to smokestack while wiping out a chalice and a mox or two. I don't think of them as a staple, but in this metagame, he's pretty good.

The matchup vs. Oath is very tricky and dependent on your opponent's competency. It can range anywhere from a fantastic matchup to a terrible one. If they run old school MD oath, you'll have the edge. ramp to 5-6 mana and just win. If they run savage oath or GWS oath, things can get complicated cause they run the same amount of counters/disruption backed by annoying cards like Pithing needle, furnace, chalice, and duress. I'm still not certain that oath is a bad matchup postboard. They theoritically bring in hate like trisk/iridescent angel/hydra against you, but it makes their kill slower.

My only question is the fire/ice. It seems EXTREMELY random. If you ran merchant scrolls, it would make sense, but the fact that you find it with demonic/mystical makes me wonder why you don't just run a lava dart. When me and Lou ran the deck at GenCon, we played gifts, so lava dart was a natural inclusion...care to elaborate?

LoA, as has been discussed, is a terrible waste of space. "Control mirrors" aren't the same as they were in 2001 people. Winning the control mirror means playing your drains right and threat evaluation. It's also about mana development. Wasting a land drop on LoA means you won't have drain up until turn 3, at which point I will have likely cast something relevant. Also, the "it's good in the late game" argument is retarded. Every good control deck in the format has a good late game. It's called Will. Wasting land drops to increase your hand size just doesn't cut it anymore. Recap: It's not good early, it's not good mid-late game.

I'm still not sold on the darksteel citadels, but I will give them a try.

As far as Gifts goes, it's amazing. It single handedly won me the game against philip in the quaterfinals of the pre-lim tourney at GenCon. You run demonic/mystical, so finiding it really isn't an issue. Once you resolve a welder, a Gifts becomes a must counter. Even if you don't have welder, you can do a split like welder/walk/mystical/recall, where they are entirely fucked regardless of what they give you. Gifts serves a different purpose in slaver than in gifts varients. Running them means you can cut down on the number of large artifacts that usually clog up your hand.

Also, just a random comment. Bad decks don't beat slaver. Period. You cannot effectively hate out the deck, because it's just so diverse. Hating out welders with shit like pithing needle is cute and all, but it doesn't win the game, and slaver can just sit there and build up to a HUGE will. In my experience with the deck, when the deck is played right there is ONLY ONE DECK that beats it consistently: Gifts. Instead of asking for matchup analysis, I recommend EVERYONE actually play the matchups. Me and Brian can tell you that Slaver crushes stax, but that doesn't help you win that matchup.

-Bob

P.S. Good article.

[Vegeta2711]

Brian is right about the 2 shamans. Right now, the top 3 decks are stax(all varients), Gifts, and Slaver. In your matchup vs. slaver, shaman is KEY, and against Gifts, attacking their manabase is HUGE. Plus, postboard, they bring in pithing needle, which shaman deals with just fine. vs. stax, he nets you board advantage. You gain a permanent to sack to smokestack while wiping out a chalice and a mox or two. I don't think of them as a staple, but in this metagame, he's pretty good.

The matchup vs. Oath is very tricky and dependent on your opponent's competency. It can range anywhere from a fantastic matchup to a terrible one. If they run old school MD oath, you'll have the edge. ramp to 5-6 mana and just win. If they run savage oath or GWS oath, things can get complicated cause they run the same amount of counters/disruption backed by annoying cards like Pithing needle, furnace, chalice, and duress. I'm still not certain that oath is a bad matchup postboard. They theoritically bring in hate like trisk/iridescent angel/hydra against you, but it makes their kill slower.

My only question is the fire/ice. It seems EXTREMELY random. If you ran merchant scrolls, it would make sense, but the fact that you find it with demonic/mystical makes me wonder why you don't just run a lava dart. When me and Lou ran the deck at GenCon, we played gifts, so lava dart was a natural inclusion...care to elaborate?

LoA, as has been discussed, is a terrible waste of space. "Control mirrors" aren't the same as they were in 2001 people. Winning the control mirror means playing your drains right and threat evaluation. It's also about mana development. Wasting a land drop on LoA means you won't have drain up until turn 3, at which point I will have likely cast something relevant. Also, the "it's good in the late game" argument is retarded. Every good control deck in the format has a good late game. It's called Will. Wasting land drops to increase your hand size just doesn't cut it anymore. Recap: It's not good early, it's not good mid-late game.

I'm still not sold on the darksteel citadels, but I will give them a try.

As far as Gifts goes, it's amazing. It single handedly won me the game against philip in the quaterfinals of the pre-lim tourney at GenCon. You run demonic/mystical, so finiding it really isn't an issue. Once you resolve a welder, a Gifts becomes a must counter. Even if you don't have welder, you can do a split like welder/walk/mystical/recall, where they are entirely fucked regardless of what they give you. Gifts serves a different purpose in slaver than in gifts varients. Running them means you can cut down on the number of large artifacts that usually clog up your hand.

Also, just a random comment. Bad decks don't beat slaver. Period. You cannot effectively hate out the deck, because it's just so diverse. Hating out welders with shit like pithing needle is cute and all, but it doesn't win the game, and slaver can just sit there and build up to a HUGE will. In my experience with the deck, when the deck is played right there is ONLY ONE DECK that beats it consistently: Gifts. Instead of asking for matchup analysis, I recommend EVERYONE actually play the matchups. Me and Brian can tell you that Slaver crushes stax, but that doesn't help you win that matchup.

-Bob

P.S. Good article.

FCG, GAT and R/G can all beat Slaver pretty handily. The easiest way, bar none, to beat slaver is to put some actually damage pressure on the opponent while being able to slow down their mana. Fish typically can't put enough pressure and MWS Aggro is unfortunately all artifacts which means it gets reamed by Rack and Ruin when it should have a great match. The other 3 decks however can put adequate pressure on while stalling the game out.

Oh and Bazaar decks like Italian UB and proper Dragon? They'll kick your ass too. You can hate out dragon, but the Italian builds are just going to ream you unless you can protect Pithing Needle.

Just saying is all.

[onelovemachine]

My only question is the fire/ice. It seems EXTREMELY random.   

There is one thing I have noticed about Brian: he plays slaver with the same mindset as someone playing 4cc (back when 4cc was a deck) or stax.  His one fire ice is no more random than the *one* swords to plowshares in stax right?  Personally I don't like answers, expecially narrow ones which is why I don't play decks like this one.  I prefer to streamline as much as possible and play slaver as a combo- control deck.  This strategy is more easily disrupted than one that has "random" answers like maindeck echoing truth and fire/ ice, but is stronger when playing against something equally as streamlined like storm combo or gifts ungiven.  The fire/ ice works for him, but its not my thing and I can imagine the same goes for a lot of people.

[Moxlotus]

As far as Gifts goes, it's amazing. It single handedly won me the game against philip in the quaterfinals of the pre-lim tourney at GenCon. 

That match was retarded.  That Gifts totally won you the game.  Sit with Yawg Will in hand, but shit in the yard.  Gifts into 4 amazing cards and win.  Some combination of Academy/Lotus/Vault/Crypt/Ancestral/Walk/Tinker=gg

Gifts is really good in Slaver as a singleton.  With a welder, just pull out your 4 artifacts, 2 go to the yard and the other 2 chill in your hand and don't take up a draw phase.  Even without a Welder or Will, it is good.  Use it as a double-Demonic Tutor.

[forests failed you]

First off, I'd like to say that I really like the amount of genuinely insightful dialog that is going on in this forum.  It has been a long while since there was a decent CS thread, with quality discussion happening, in the Open Forum.

and to business:

I don't think that main decking some number of Duress is terrible; in fact, with both Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal becoming legal very soon, I think that it might be a very strong call to play some number of Duress MD at SCG Chicago.  Secondly, I don't think that it is prudent to play Duress in place of main deck answers to cards that Slaver needs to answer.  A Duress in hand does not effectively answer Fish's turn one Aether Vials or Chalices.  However, it does surely improve your match up against TPS and Gifts.  It is a question of personal preference and I would encourage people to test it out for themselves and see what works best for each individual person.  I have found that every match up is beatable without the inclusion of MD Duress.  However, it does help out a lot in certain problematic match ups.

And on to the next:

Oath is a strange match up and much of it comes down to whether they have it or not.  Sometimes Oath just has the nut high, and plays turn one Orchard, Oath, Chalice, and has Force back up.  Fortunately, most of the time they don't just have the nuts and Slaver can out draw and out counter the Oath player.  As Clown has already pointed out, much of this match up is knowing when to counter and when to play your spells.  Against Choke Oath you have to play really tight and gauge the importance of the spells that you are countering.  This particular Oath build has more threats that you care about, specifically Choke and Duress, but fortunately they have a weaker draw and counter base.  Use this to your advantage, keep Choke off the board and use Brainstorm to protect your bombs from Duress.  Slaver and Will are your primary weapons in this match up, and you'll want to try and get it going as quickly as possible.  Since your robots are little compared to their guys, I usually use Tinker to get Lotus and go nuts with Will and set up a Slaver Lock.  Usually, I board out Fire/Ice, Fact or Fiction and Triskellion and bring in the Echoing Truth and two Stifles.  The Stifles probably seem random, and they kind of are, but they are more useful than the other cards I board out.  Plus, randomly killing a fetch land, or stalling one Oath activation can often times afford enough time to win.  Not to mention stopping a random Strip Mine or Wasteland activation can be extremely clutch.

On a side note.  If there is a lot of Oath in your immediate metagame, you could always play with some number of Spawning Pits or Goblin Bombardments in your board.  Both of these are extremely savage at stopping Oath cold in its tracks.

Lastly, to respond to Bob directly:

Fire/Ice is not random.  It is an extremely good card, in my opinion one of the best utility cards ever.   Game one I am almost never sad when it shows up.  It kills little guys like Lava Dart; however, unlike Lava Dart it kills two toughness guys without costing you a land.  Specifically it kills the living shit out of Meddling Mage.  A Vialed down Mage set on Goblin Welder or Thirst for Knowledge can cripple many different kinds of Slaver hands.  Not to mention, it is really nice to have a two mana kill spell for Ninja of deep hours.  Also, Fire/Ice essentially cycles and does something at the same time.  EOT tap one of your two Islands and go nuts, EOT tap that 3sphere and go nuts. et cetera.  It is good because it only takes up one spot and it can do a variety of different but really important functions depending upon the match up.  I like to include cards like this in my lists because they do a lot for a little.

Also, with regard to Citadel:  It has never cost me a game in the 300 plus matches I've played with this list.  Every now and then it may show up as the only mana source and cause a mulligan (as is the case with off colored moxen), but I can honestly say it has been worth every mulligan.  My major problem with my older lists was that I felt the artifact count in Slaver was too little.  Too often I would not have a sufficient amount of things to Weld out or Pitch to TFK.  Ideally Citadel is the card that you most want to pitch away to TFK, I hate pitching Moxes because accelerating out more quickly is soooooo good.  However, with the resurgence of Shamans in the meta having an artifact to weld that can't be hit is definitely worth including.  I will also pose to you that Windfall had two Citadels in his Worlds deck last year at Gencon when 4cc with main deck Shamans was the deck to beat.  Dubs Citadel is nothing new, The Vintage Avant Garde has been doing this since the start of Slaver!  In a field full of Chalices and Shamans, Citadel can be a Slaver players best friend.  It is something to consider, or at least test out.  Either way, let me know what you find.

After all, I don't know what is necessarily optimal; I merely play what wins me games.

[Lou]

@ Brian: I am still not sure about the two Citadel slots.  You have convinced me that one is worth playing, which we didn't use, but two just really seems like it could fuck you over good and keep you off two blue.  Aside from Richmond, with only 57 players, there has been no major tournament for you to submit such a strong opinion on the choice, when you only ran one in your Gencon list.  Why the sudden shift?  Or did you feel that it should have been two maindeck at Gencon because you didn't like the artifact count?

You say that every match up is beatable, and I do agree with that, but recently in testing it seems that I am having a hard time against Gifts based decks, as Gifts really does a lot of stuff just plain better than almost any deck in the format.  Duress maindeck is an idea, but questionable.  Are the two Shamans helping in this match up?  What do you feel are the key plays?

When Bob mentioned Fire/Ice being random, you left out one thing.  He said it was random without Merchant Scroll.  Merchant Scroll is such a good card in this deck.  Anyone who doesn't think so needs to test at least one copy, because it gets such classics as: Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Mystical Tutor, Gifts Ungiven/Fact or Fiction, Echoing Truth, and the random Fire/Ice.  I dropped down to one Merchant Scroll for the inclusion of Fire/Ice, and I have no problem getting one of the blue instants into my hand when I need it.

The last thing I want to hit is the inclusion of Sundering Titan into the main.  Stax/Workshop Aggro are the only decks where you are upset about seeing a Titan.  I can think of no other scenario where I don't mind seeing a Titan off a Tinker, or Welding him into play after a Thirst.  He has won me so many games just by taking out a land or two.  And if you do manage to keep him into play, occasionally it is worth it to Weld him right back out to completely wreck your opponents base.

I enjoyed the article, and I really enjoy hearing other peoples takes on the deck.

[Xenoben187]

When Bob mentioned Fire/Ice being random, you left out one thing.  He said it was random without Merchant Scroll.  Merchant Scroll is such a good card in this deck.  Anyone who doesn't think so needs to test at least one copy, because it gets such classics as: Thirst for Knowledge, Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Mystical Tutor, Gifts Ungiven/Fact or Fiction, Echoing Truth, and the random Fire/Ice.  I dropped down to one Merchant Scroll for the inclusion of Fire/Ice, and I have no problem getting one of the blue instants into my hand when I need it.

I'm really glad you brought this up Lou, I've actually been testing 2 merchant scrolls in my build of slaver and they have been nothing but golden.  The only problem i've had with them is they aren't foil.

[forests failed you]

At Gencon I definitely wished that I had two Citadels in my deck.  The changes I have made to my list are basically things that would have been good at Worlds, and also changes I have made playing locally on the Michigan scene.

I agree with you that Merchant Scroll would be good in this deck, but my question is:  "what do you cut?"  The list is already so tight that I'm not really sure what cards can be cut.  My first instinct tells me that one Welder could come out (as I am not a huge fan of playing all four, and usually board one out in game two), but I'm not sure about it.   

Game one against Gifts can be rough, as I have blatantly state, if they have a nutty hand.  However, it is the same way for every match up in Vintage.  As long as you can keep their draw under control, Gorilla Shaman comes down and annihilates their Mana Base.  In all of my Gifts matches at GenCon Shaman was the all star of my deck.

I don't like Titan very much in the Main Deck because he is a dead card against Workshop Decks.  Even if you pitch him to TFK, which is an ideal play, adept Stax players will use their Welders to weld him in and out against you at the end of your turn destroying your lands.  I just cannot justify playing a card that is dead at best, and a liability at worst, in certain match ups, no matter how good they are in the control mirror.  Triskellion and Pentavus, between the two of them, do everything that you need to be done; block, kill creatures, make permanents, et cetera.  Playing a guy to blow up opposing Islands is greedy, because you don't need to do that to win in any match up.  Attacking opposing control decks is overkill; Slaver should be focused on playing cards that keep it alive long enough to win the game via Slaver and Will.

[mrieff]

Yeh, we're getting some very constructive discussion in this thread
Very good article. I used to play a lot of Slaver but have put the deck aside for a few months. The article brought me up to speed with the latest lines of thought.

Let me put in my 2c:

Instead of Merchant Scroll, how about Cunning Wish?
2U instant is not that far of from a 1U Sorcery. At the cost of sideboard space you can keep several narrow cards in the 'board, and have access to goodies such as RED, Rack & Ruin, and perhaps Fact or Fiction (if you play it SB like I do)

With regard to Darksteel Citadel, I had quite some occassions where I really missed the Blue mana. I happily replaced them with Seat of the Synod. However, that was in the pre-Shaman era so i may need to revise that.

I never liked Pentavus. I very rarely pull of the hard Slaver lock, and in many occassions a single Slaver activation would have done it as well. I'm leaning towards another Trike.

I always plays Memory Jar in all my Slaver builds, and always love it. It is my prime Tinker target, and many times Jar+Untap phase=GG. Let's not even discuss Jar recursion with Welder.   

[Xenoben187]

Instead of Merchant Scroll, how about Cunning Wish?
2U instant is not that far of from a 1U Sorcery. At the cost of sideboard space you can keep several narrow cards in the 'board, and have access to goodies such as RED, Rack & Ruin, and perhaps Fact or Fiction (if you play it SB like I do)

I think the majority of CS players who have been playing it a while have tested Cunning Wish, and it pretty much always always always sucks.
The only way this could come close to merchant scroll is if you were to run ancestral, mystical and a thirst in the sideboard.  Not happening. 

[forests failed you]

Cunning Wish is an interesting call.  I'm going to take this opportunity to say, 'but it is slow' so that 10 other brainiacs don't need to chime in stating the obvious. Now we can move along:

However, though it is slow it might just be golden.  It might be possible to cut Fire/Ice from the maindeck and replace it with a Cunning Wish.  You could then put the Fire/Ice in the sideboard to Wish for along with Rack and Ruin, Echoing Truth, and Stile.  I also think that this would make a strong case for playing one Gifts in the board to wish for.  I've always felt that Gifts is a good, but narrow, Slaver card and this would really make it shine without the drawback of acomplishing very little when you are behind.  I could also see playing Vamp Tutor in the board.  

It is a question of is the slowness worth the versitility; and my answer is maybe.  I will give this idea my full attention.

[Lou]

I really think that running a single Merchant Scroll is a superior call than running a lone Cunning Wish, for the simple reason that you have already stated, speed.  With Merchant Scroll, you can get any of the answers that are in your deck now, for one less mana albeit at sorcery speed.  But you also get the bombs such as Ancestral or Thirst or Gifts, and on occasion Mystical.  It just gives you more busted plays .

[forests failed you]

At this point we are debating between two cards that do essentially the same thing.

Anyway, I think we can both agree that perhaps one more maindeck tutor effect that has the possibility of finding situational answers may be  ideal.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Wish is ass. Why butcher you're already good board to accomodate a wish? Plus, the way I see it, merchant scroll grabs upwards of 15 cards in your deck that you want to see NOW. Not just an answer. CS players wised up and just ran an echoing truth to deal with any potential unanswered threats.

Also, I'll vouch for the inclusion of titan. I cannot stress how good this guy is. Brian, if we were back in Tog/keeper times, I'd totally agree with you that CS had a good game vs. control. Gifts is an entirely different animal. The clock/disruption that titan provides is invaluable. Who cares that it sucks vs. stax? It's a pretty good matchup to start with. I know for a fact Lou went like 6-0 against Stax at GenCon(including Cron) and I constantly criticize his ass for misplays.

This almost leads back to Gifts. The reason Me and Lou were able to run so many singleton bombs was because of gifts. It in essence acted as a tutorable Slaver/pentavus/titan (via mystical/demonic). No one has mentioned yet, but casting gifts on a slave turn is BETTER than fact. Plus, even when you don't have anything and have already cast recall/tutors, you can thin out your deck. finally, on very rare occasions, I have gifts for mana.

Finally, There should NEVER be ANY reason to cut pentavus. As long as WS aggro and stax exists, cutting pents is out of the question.

Also, memory jar seems extremely counter-intuitive. Wasting tinker to see 7 new cards that you can't keep seems bad. You're not a combo deck.

As far as merchant scroll goes, I haven't tested it, but it seems to me if you were to include it, you'd want a gifts in there and probably some other blue instants I'm forgetting.

Also, the argument for pitching DC to thirst is weak. Slaver IS the premier Mana drain control deck. I know for a FACT I was playing the deck wrong until Godot pointed it out to me. If you aren't losing, there really is no reason to cast thirst w/out an aritfact or BS without a shuffle. You just sit on drain. It sounds so simple, but I've seen way too many slaver players lose because they thirsted too early. Throughout GenCon, I don't think I ditched 1 non-artifact card to Thirst in my 15+ matches.

This isn't to say I won't test DC, because I do see it's merits. I'm just still stuck on the "it doesn't produce blue" train of thought.

Basically, we're all going in circles. The point remains that slaver is the most versatile and flexible control deck in the format, and trying to develop a 60 card optimal list is folly. In different metagames, different cards will be better than others.

-Bob

[Prometheon]

I too have to vouch for how amazing Sundering Titan is. He's a quick clock, and he destroys the manabase your opponent needs to deal with him. When I Tinker it is usually for Sundering Titan. When I have a Welder out and I cast TfK, the card I most want to draw is usually Sundering Titan. He's awesome.

Also, Gorilla Shaman is frigging nuts. He single handedly wins games by destroying Chalices, Vials, Moxes, Sol Ring etc. An often overlooked fact is that he also DEVOURS Mishra's Factory. Plus, he can block a Lacky, which is golden sometimes.

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people are not running Vamp. What is the reasoning behind this? Vampiric Tutor is AMAZING in this deck, giving you access to all of the narrow 1-ofs you run, plus a way to fetch Will/Ancestral/Tinker. I've also been running a single copy of Gifts latley, and it doesn't help at all when I'm losing. Making piles for Gifts in CS is honestly harder than it is in Gifts. Often I simply don't know where to begin. For this reason I've been considering cutting Gifts for a Duress (and I'd also have to drop something else, as Duress is, at the very least, a 2-of.) Any thoughts?

Also, has anyone considered MD Red Blasts? I just thought of it now, and I'm not sure how good it would be, but it seems like it would be, at the least, decent.

Great article Brian, and great thread everyone.

[Jacob Orlove]

An often overlooked fact is that he also DEVOURS Mishra's Factory.

Gorilla Shaman
R   
Creature — Ape   
1/1   
XX1: Destroy target noncreature artifact with converted mana cost X. 

[forests failed you]

To respond:

I don't need Sundering Titan in my deck to win in any match up.  I repeat ANY match up. Therefore, I don't play it.  But if you like it and it works; fantastic for you I encourage you to continue playing with it.  There are definately advantages to killing your opponents lands.  However, in my opinion I don't think that Slaver's role is to be killing lands and trying to beat down with a 7/10.  I win 8/10 of my games via Slaver-lock.  It is very possible that we are both playing the deck differently.  (Thus, 7/10 is good in your version, and unecessary.


I don't know if Cunning Wish is good I haven't tested it; and unless you have tested my list from SCG with -1 Fire/Ice, +1 Cunning Wish, since Wish was suggested today you don't really know if it is good either.  You are just assuming it won't be good for whatever reason.  I like having more options open to me.  In most cases I am willing to sacrifice a little bit of speed because I know that I can outplay my opponents all day long.  I would have thought that you Colorodo guys would have caught onto that by now.  Good players with options open = win.  I never said that Cunning Wish was the answer, I said it was worth consideration.  There is no right or wrong with a deck like Slaver, and there is no ideal build up there in the sky waiting to be realized.  You have to find what works for you in a specific metagame.

If you don't like Citadel don't play it.  You are probably right, I have no idea what I am talking about, its not like I've been testing it for the past two months or anything...  But when you realize that you can't weld ever because every Mana Drain deck in the format is playing 2 Shamans, I don't want to hear about it.  Gifts is playing Shamans now, it is a really big problem if you don't have Citadel.

Also, saying that Gifts has an advantage over FOF because it is better to cast during an opponents Slaver turn is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  If you cast either you win.  Not to mention if you have them Slavered and are casting spells during their turn you probably have already won the game regardless of whether it is Gifts or FOF. From what you are telling me you are using Gifts in your Slaver deck as a glorified Intuition.  Why not just play intuition?  It is cheaper and it does the same thing.  Both spells FOF and Gifts are performing the same function in the deck.  Both are 4 Mana blue instants they swing the game.  Some players like one, some players like the other.  I prefer to dig, it suits my style better.  But clearly, both are fine card choices.  I don't expect to change your mind, that wasn't the point of the article.