(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[forests failed you]

Oops, check out the next one then.  It was the tourney where I lost to Jesus Roxas in the last round and missed top 8.  It was also the round where I Tendrilsed out an opponent who was at 46 life on the fifth turn or turns to take game three and the match.

The Burning Wish alt kill is something I have been working on for a long time.  But the addition of Imperial Seal to the format really makes the deck shine.

I actually had, I believe two Gifts and three Welders in that list.  I'm not sure though.

[TheBrassMan]

Point conceeded, bitching about who played what deck first is hardly productive.  The real development issue is, of course, if you decide you want to play a Drain deck with Welders and access to a combo kill, which 75 cards do you run?  All I'm trying to do is say I prefer my 75, and explain my reasoning, and I apologize if it sounded like I was doing anything different.  I agree with everything maindeck except Mind's Eye and Darkblast, and I feel we've both made our positions on those cards perfectly clear.

The one question I hadn't brought up is about the kill.  I know Belcher v Vault v Colossus v Tendrils is an ancient and tired debate, but I have to ask.  Specifically, without running a Rebuild, how much set up does a Tendrils kill require?  I understand totally that with Welders/Monkies/Pentavus, you don't need a secondary kill that often, but for the games where you don't have a broken combo hand, what steps do you need to take when you decide Tendrils is your best path to victory? (or, alternatively, is Tendrils usually just a backup-backup plan?)

[forests failed you]

Thanks Andy.

Well, it varies from hand to hand.  But with all of the tutors in the deck it is actually really easy to ramp enough storm and mana to just go off on turn three.  Rebuild is not necessary, getting up storm count is not a problem in this deck.

Also, you don't have to go off fast.  But you can.  More than likely you want to control the game for a while until you can go out with no possible way of losing.

The deck actually has what feels like INFI tutoring capability so depending upon matchup and board position you always have access to what you need.  If you are in a position where you can go off, you go off.  If you Thirst Early and pitch something good you can play Slaver or even board control.  It is all very dependent upon situation, because a big part of the deck is that you can find specific cards very easily.

I would say so far I've won about 40% of my games Via Tendrils.
and 60% of my games Via Robots.

However there were a lot of games where I couldn't have won just playing CS no matter what.  I actually had to go broken in order to win.

[Liam-K]

Mind's Eye has been tested... when one of the [other robots] hooks up with a friend, you win the game immediately.  Sure, playing [Mind's Eye] off a Drain or Welding it into play isn't very hard at all, but the same applies to any number of other cards you could be running that have more devestating effects immediately, guarenteed, as I said in my previous post.

I think this critiscism shouldn't be lost behind the emotional content of the thread.  I said earlier that tinkering for cards feels circular, but I think BrassMan said it better.  Why run something that will eventually give you an advantage you hope, when you can play something that gives you an advantage right now for the same amount of work?  While Mind's Eye's role is to become strong over the long game, putting one of your big artifacts into play should mean there isn't a long game anymore.

[Metman]

Mind's Eye has been tested... when one of the [other robots] hooks up with a friend, you win the game immediately.  Sure, playing [Mind's Eye] off a Drain or Welding it into play isn't very hard at all, but the same applies to any number of other cards you could be running that have more devestating effects immediately, guarenteed, as I said in my previous post.

I think this critiscism shouldn't be lost behind the emotional content of the thread.  I said earlier that tinkering for cards feels circular, but I think BrassMan said it better.  Why run something that will eventually give you an advantage you hope, when you can play something that gives you an advantage right now for the same amount of work?  While Mind's Eye's role is to become strong over the long game, putting one of your big artifacts into play should mean there isn't a long game anymore.

While I think that Mind's Eye is a bomb over the long haul but not the house Mindslaver/Titan/Pentavus/Trike is immediatley it doesn't require a Welder to make the card great.  A one time Slaver does some damage but it doesn't say I win; I think the same can be said for a Pentavus hitting the table.  The Titan can mean game over but not in all situations.  What I've found is that when Mind's Eye comes out you pump some mana into it and it wins you the game and not just in the control matches.  Their brainstorms say, "draw three while you're at it."  What control deck doesn't run Ancestral Recall and Brainstorm?  Thirst draws you three, Bazaar draws you two, Ak draws 1-4, even Ringleader nets 4 cards.  This sums up just about any deck in the format doesn't it?  Everything except R/G beats and you shouldn't have too much trouble with the random rogue decks.  Mind's Eye is also a lot easier to cast than the other big artifacts. 

I think that after playtesting Mind's Eye you will find that it is a house and deserves a spot in the main depending on your meta.  It's too strong a card to be ignored in a Slaver deck. 

[Klep]

I think that after playtesting Mind's Eye you will find that it is a house and deserves a spot in the main depending on your meta.  It's too strong a card to be ignored in a Slaver deck. 

That's exactly Brass Man's point.  It has been tested, over and over, for the two years since it came out, and that testing has repeatedly determined that it is not good enough.  Nothing has happened recently which would change that assessment.  Remember the danger of doing cool things.  It is better to just win the game now with something like Mindslaver or Belcher than to probably win the game in a number of turns.

[TheBrassMan]

even Ringleader nets 4 cards.

This is totally a nitpick, and I'm not sure the TMD ettiquette on that sort of thing, so sorry, but Mind's Eye definitely doesn't draw you cards on a Ringleader.  I only bring this is up at all because the difference between drawing a card and putting it in your hand is a lot more significant against a deck like Meandeck Gifts, packing a full set of Merchant Scrolls, Gifts, and FoF.

[MoxMonkey]

Guess I'll Chime in.  Mind's Eye was to improve the SSB vs slaver matchup.  In my testing unless I can get a Slaver activated before turn 6 I tended to lose because SSB could out draw/out broken me.  Minds eye was to give the deck a Much Needed Tinker target since Pentavus is < DSC same with Titan.  I lost a match at Waterbury After I tinkered for Titan.  Minds Eye can be played off a Drain and even hardcasted after some stupid counter war and theres no hands on either side.  Its not the end all be all bomb but its been helping me a lot in that matchup.  I have put it in the board for now but thats cause Stax is getting bigger at my regular store so I needed to put Pentavus back.  Minds Eye is a metagame call and nothing else the fact that it beats a deck I dont like and tend to see a lot and others playtested vs just made everyone think its an auto include.  Minds Eye is a house and everyone who has used it knows this.  I have use dit off and on for the past 2 years and the fact that it got cut was because it wasn't needed since the mirror match has much better Tinker Targets aka Triskelion.

[Vertigo]

After having read your brilliant article and the most of this discussion I can`t help not being a bit criticical of the sole darkblast. I fear that having read your article that echoing truth may be a better card because of greater versality. Naturally it is THE TECH in the mirror, stax and fish matchup but beyond goblin welder the build seems to have certain difficiculties with a resolved collosus. I just feel that any deck needs to have a viable answer to a tinker=collosus

Mind`s eye seems strong because of its massive card drawing potential in the control mirror. I look forward to testing it!

In my area the  metagame is primarily dominated by gifts ungiven and storm and oath. How would you make your deck in that meta? There is really not so much control slaver!

This is my first reply so please have patience!
l 

[forests failed you]

Well fortunately for you, a Slaver player, your deck already contains three maindeck answers to Tinker/Colossus.  Goblin Welder x3!  In a pinch Burning Wish can do anything that Echoing Truth needs to do, not to mention that it doubles as a win condition.  Really the only thing that Truth can do that Wish can't is remove Choke, Chains, and In the Eye of Chaos; and those are board cards so you can answer them with Truths after board.  Burning wish is THE versatile card in this deck, it does SO much.

@Klep:  I don't care how many people have tested a card and say it is bad; I have tested Mind's Eye personally at long lengths over the course of the last month and my testing shows it to be worthy of the list.  You guys are free to disagree, I'm just sharing what is currently working for me.

Darkblast is really good, but it varies in its usefulness from match to match.  Sometimes it can steal a game by itself and sometimes it does very little.  However, I have found it to be quite savage to pitch it to TFK and get a Will into my hand and then just start dredging away for a huge Will.  Or dredging to find robots.  Its never dead, it can always do something or serve some purpose.

@Vertigo:  Thanks for the compliment on my article!

[MoxMonkey]

Right now my list has I think a Million ways to kill someone.  I have the Burning Wish Tendrils plan during a Will or broken opening, and it doubles as utility.  I have a Belcher and Mana Severence Mainboard cause I like the combo and I think it flows So great with the normal Slaver plan anyway and it just wins games fast like Tendrils does.  I have a Darkblast and instead of Triskelion Im testing Senseis Divining Top and Liking it a lot.  Triskelion is good but Darkblast is just a cheaper better Triskelion.  I dropped Imperial Seal so I can keep Sev main but it can be put back if liked.  The singleton Gifts is more than Enough since your able to just win without it.  Im really liking the Burning Wish and the other crazyness the deck can do and hopefully if I can get my money and shit together I will be going up to NY and Ill give this a real good testing. 

[forests failed you]

Ha Ha, nice!  Great minds really do think alike...

I cut Trike for Belcher as well, only I'm playing with the Severence in the SB, and leaving the Imp Seal MD.

What do you guys think;  Echoing Ruin or Meltdown in the board to Kill artifacts?

[sean1i0]

My vote's going to have to go to Meltdown.

[MoxMonkey]

Yup they sure do and I hope we can prove that one at NY if Im able to go.  Now Guess I have to be the one who makes it 50/50 I Really like my Echoing Ruin and its been nice vs Stax too, and when I figure something funny out im writing it on the card. 

[virtual]

For the SB Meltdown, because of the BWish.

[Zomar]

very rarely will Echoing Ruin be better than Primitive Justice.

[Metman]

Thanks Brassman for correcting the Ringleader situation.  I assumed it said draw 4 cards but after reading it again you are right.  I wouldn't draw cards off Mind's Eye after Ringleader coming into play.

On another note, I've been wrestling with the last few slots in Slaver.  There has been enough very intelligant discussion on this topic that I have no idea what direction I want to take with Slaver.  I've seriously considered going a comboish route and used Burning Wish, Goblin Charbelcher, Mana Severance, and Tendrils of Agony.  On the other hand after playtesting Mind's Eye and running Stifle/Duress/Mana Leak as additional utility and control I've found very strong results.  I also have concerns over running X amount of Tutors maindeck.  I'm not sure of the correct amount and after reading this Slaver discussion I've heard both sides of the argument still with no conclusion to an optimal amount. 

What my instints tell me is that I and many of you need to look at your metagame and consider which matchups you struggle with and succeed against.  This is in addition to what you feel comfortable playing in terms of a more controlish traditional Slaver build or a more aggressive combo hybrid build.  There are about 4-6 slots open for debate which lets Slaver assume a couple different approaches. 

[MoxMonkey]

Yes the metagame has an impact on what you run but its more on how you want to play the deck.  I and Force both played 4CC / 3CC / Keeperish deck before and brought that into our Slaver builds with singletons like Fire/Ice and Echoing Truth.  We played Controling the board and winning at our our time via a Shaman or Welder.  The comboishing route seems to have its good times being able to end the games so you do not have to control forever and your able to just beat Aggro to death.  I have a Hybrid right now with Singletons and random cards and its more to suit my personal Play style more than anything else.  The metagame I play in I ussally just have a board ot deal with general stuff in case a lot of people show up.  My build right now is
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Goblin Welders
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Pentavus
1 MindSlaver
1 Sensei's Divning Top
1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Burning Wish
1 Mana Severance
1 Time Walk
1 DarkBlast
1 EchoingTruth

1 LOA
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 tolarian Acedemy
3 Island
4 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

SB is
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 EchoingRuin
1 Deep Anaysis
1 Pyroclasm
1 Merchant Scroll / Imperial Seal
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 DSC
1 Rushing River
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stifle

My list is not perfect but its been treating me very well. I like being able to Combo Kill during Will with Burning Wish for Tendrils and ot Go slowly through the game and combo out with Belcher and or do the Slaver route using Welders to bring big Artifacts in and out.  I like this build because you can switch from Contorl to Combo and back.  The Darkblast is taking Triskelions place since it cost less and does the same thing and more at times.  Divining top was added since I cut Triskelion and didn;t want to cut my Artifact count.  The top has been solid during testing but not sure if its going to stay.  My SB is for a general Metagame and not really aimed at anything.  I hopefully will find money and be at SCG Ny and I will run this with a card or 2 in Changes.  Good luck to Everyone who is running slaver and I will be looking over the forum a lot to post a reply to a question if anyone has one.

[Metman]

This is what I love about this game so much.  Mox Monkey, after looking at your list I see, minus a slightly different mana base, a six card difference.  The core of the deck is essentially the same but the utility cards and kind of play are different.  Like you, I came from a silver-bullet style Keeper background but have found that my Slaver style of play is different.  This leads me to a one of the open slots in Slaver.  With my Keeper background I have used and abused the tutors to find bullets to control the board but is this the same strategy to use in Slaver?  So, I wanted to ask some more experienced Slaver players...How many tutors and which are you playing?  How often do you side them out or side them in if you are running them in your board?  Most importantly, what are you tutoring for?  Are they for the select few bullets MD, the other part of your combo should you be running that version, the big artifacts to ensure you have them for TfK, or the usual Ancestral/Yawg/Tinker?

[MoxMonkey]

I had Imperial Seal main for a while but I cut it since I ended up seeing my black sources go away a lot.  I cannot cut LOA cause I play in NE and control Mirrors are around here.  I would love to fit the 3rd Sea but I don't own/ Know what to cut.  I haven't had to many problems.  I usually tutor for Ancestral Tinker or Will and then at Times the big artifact if I have a Thirst but if I have a thirst I usually get Ancestral to Ancestral then thirst so I get a new hand out of it. Vamp has been solid for me and the DSC is my friend in the board.  I usually don't board out my 3 Tutors (Demonic Mystical Vamp) but when I had Seal I boarded it out a lot to bring in Hate cards since I could tutor for it via burning wish.  I sometimes get the combo parts but thats not my first goal unless I'm holding the second piece or I'm on a 2-3 turn clock that I cannot get out of unless I just win now.   I do at Times board out Mystical but I don't bring in a lot of cards unless its vs Combo which is usually a lot of cards to be brought in DSC 2 Stifles 2 Crypts.  I do Leave the Darkblast Main if they have Green or 5 color lands since Swarms are a pain.  Mystical Pentavus and sometimes Shaman come out and at times Belcher Severance do as well.  The top and Truth an also be changed around and go in and out in a lot of matchups.  I board really weird and probably not that well but I seem to make it work.  I like having 1 bounce spell after board in case they do something crazy like run Enchantments in the SB that mess with me since I have lost to boarding out the bounce and not having a Disenchant cause I thought I was playing Keeper with a Cunning Wish.     Yup I'm that good I thought I was playing Keeper even though I've been running Slaver the past 2 years.

[Vertigo]

MoxMonkey:

The deck looks powerful but I would like to hear your opinions on the single Senseis diving top..

Is it good enough to replace such a synergistic card as Fact or Fiction?..the card being, in my oppinion, one of the trademarks of Control Slaver anno 2005--Let it be noted that I really like Senseis Diving Top but maybe it may just be too random.. this is naturally not an insult just a suggestion.

I think that your list is very comboish..perhaps a triskelion for the mirror may be a good choice..

Forcefieldyou:

I really like your list in that it is definitely still a control deck.suited towards control with minds eye and shaman..which i think may be a good idea to run-

In a sense i feel that both decks (and the others in this article) reveal a tendency which has been implicit in many ways in vintage that combo kills simply are too good not to include in ANY deck other than fish, stax and aggro (certainly oversimplified). We see it partly in foodchain, totally in combo, significantly in gifts ungiven and now as a threefold process in Slaver through either Mindslaver/pentavus, Goblin Charbelcher/mana serverance and burning wish tendrils. Whether this the way that slaver naturally has to evolve is a question only testing can reveal. I will try it out!

-Vertigo

[forests failed you]

I played the deck yesterday at the RIW jet tourney and finished 4th.  I conceeded to my teamate Onelovemachine in top 4 because we prize split anyways and he had a better match up against the other deck in the finals.

After playing it yesterday I don't think I would play the one Darkblast in the maindeck.  Instead I think that I might actually cut it for either Frantic Search, or a maindeck Cunning Wish.  I haven't decided completely yet.

Also, Mind's Eye is really good... Sometimes and in certain bad match ups, especially Gifts.  The problem is that it is really weak against aggro when they are beating you down with guys.  It certainly gets sided out in these match ups, but I'd almost rather play another Gifts over it maindeck.  I'm not sure I'm tweaking my list for the type one event tonight.  I'll let you guys know what I played and how it worked out for me tomorrow.

Cheers

[MoxMonkey]

I honestly dont like too mamy high catsing cost spells because in my meta I see alot of watselands and Spheres.  I would probably replace it since its not that great and Darkblast has been pretty good for me.  I took out Triskelion because I see Darkblast doing the same thing and more in many Matchups.  I will be testing over the weekend for the Ruby/Drain tournament and I will post my Result with the deck.  I do Agree Fact should probably go back into the main board.

[Vertigo]

Mox Monkey:

Fact or Fiction is a game breaker in my oppinion and fulfills many roles in Control Slaver.

By the way what changes, do you suggest, using your deck as a platform would you undertake in a meta with lots and lots of gifts and Tps?




 

[MoxMonkey]

I would go as far to putting 2 Disrupts Maiinboard cutting the Darkblast and maybe having a REB Main as well.  If your metagame is TPS and Gifts, Slaver can wreck house by being more of a control deck than what it usually is.
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Disrupt

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Goblin Welders
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Pentavus
1 MindSlaver
1 Gorilla Shaman / REB

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Burning Wish
1 Mana Severance
1 Time Walk
1 EchoingTruth

1 LOA
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 tolarian Acedemy
3 Island
4 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

SB
1 Disrupt
1 Deep analysis
1 Merchant Scroll
1 DSC
2 REB
1 Recoup
1 Tendirls of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Echoing Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stilfe
1 Mox Monkey (if you like dual Monkeys or if you put the REB main)

I would run something along the lines of this for a Heavy TPS and Gifts metagame.  The added counters allow Slaver to drags in oppenent into the late game no matter what.  I have used this before but my metagame has shifted alot to less control and more Stax/Aggro/Random decks so I stopped using it.  Fact or Fiction may be game breaking but vs Gifts and TPS you want to drag them into the late game and I've found that having Fact and gifts can slow you down at times.  You can add it if you want and I probably will put it back main but I'm going to need to do some testing first.

[Vertigo]

Hmm..yes I have been thinking about disrupt too. It is definitely a good card in the control and tps meta on that I agree with you. Reb may be just the card it needs.

I have been looking a lot on your list and as far as I can calculate you only play 15 lands. 

1 LOA
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 tolarian Acedemy
3 Island
4 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

I`m not quite sure if this is enough lands. Isn`t your manabase vulnerable?
-Vertigo

[MoxMonkey]

At times the mana base can be an issue but its on and off that it works and that it doesn't at times.  The Basics and Fetch lands help out 5 strip decks a lot but so far I haven't seen a reason to jump back to 16 since I had 16 lands at Waterbury and SBed 1 out almost every match that day.  If you want you can throw another land in but I dont think its needed and if another land goes in I would bring the 3rd Underground Sea back.

[Metman]

I was thinking that the mana base looked a little skimpy as well.  What I always liked about Slaver was the amount of mana sources and lands it plays.  With the amount of cards that hit the graveyard with TfK and FoF I feel too uncomfortable not playing more lands.  I would not only add at least another land but I have found a place for Lotus Petal.  It gets Mana Drain online a turn quicker if it's drawn, and later in the game it can be easily pitched to TfK or welded out.  I know that it was tested before but I have added in a Seat of Synod for the same reasons I added Lotus Petal. 

I hadn't tested the Disrupt tech.  The Mana Leak pitch sounded good although I haven't had time to test it either.  How often are you finding Disrupt effective?  Is it in there just to throw them off or does it work?  Would it be better than a REB?  What do you guys think, I'm a bit curious on some of the new tech you guys have thought up.

[forests failed you]

Okay, so I played the list yesterday at our local Vintage tourney with the following changed.

I cut Mind's Eye from the maindeck and replaced it with Frantic Search.

Also, I cut Triskellion for a second Gifts Ungiven.

It was pretty savage.  I ended up drawing for first with Droba.  The second Gifts allows you to play much more like a combo deck.  And with all of the tutors in the deck Frantic Search really shines a lot of times when you need to will before you can really go off Frantic Search is savage.  Especially if you are playing it with an Academy in play before you play Will.  Obviously it makes mana, but it also allows you to pitch Artifacts that you may eventually want to weld in later.  Esentially, it is TFK number five, because all I wanted was to play a fifth TFK in its place.  I Added Darksteel Colossus to the sideboard.  I've found that against Gifts you can actually morph your deck into a very strong control deck by cutting many of the Slaver components for REBS, Crypts, Stifles, Recoup and Colossos.  I ened up beating Onelovemaching in the swiss this way after he brought in answers to my Welders only to find that they had all been boarded out.

The only thing that concerned me was that the number of robots is now considerably lower at 2.  I am seriously considering going down to two Welders and playing Colossus or something else in its place.

My list now looks something like this at the moment

4 Force of Will
4 mana drain


4 brainstorm
4 thirst for knowledge
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 mystical tutor
2 Gifts ungiven
1 frantic search
1 Tinker

1 darkblast
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor

3 goblin welder
2 gorilla shaman
1 burning wish

1 mindslaver
1 pentavus

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Snow covered Island
5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 darksteel citadel
1 tolerian academy

SB

3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Pyroclasm
1 Darksteel colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Triskellion
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stifle
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Compulsive Research
1 Echoing Truth

The trickey part about this deck is that you are walking the line between two different decks that at first glance appear to be trying to do two different things.  One is a Slaver deck, and one is a TPS deck.  The thing I eventually realized is that both decks are trying, at their core, to do the exact same thing.  Both decks just want to resolve, cultivate, and protect a game winning Yawgmoth's Will.  The fact that it has two different win conditions is irrelevent, the part that matters is that you have the option of winning in whichever manner is most convenient at the moment.

The problem is that I am still working on figuring out exactly what this decks idealized gameplan is supposed to be.  Which cards are necessary to the plan and which are not.  I'm not sure that you need Trike, but he makes the CS matchup much easier.  I'm also not sure that you need Mind's Eye, but it is such a beating in a stalemate situation, or against tog or Gifts taht it is actually stupid. So it becomes a struggle of what is easy and comfortable against match ups, and what is actually right and what the deck needs to win.

I don't believe that you must have a Trike to win, but it certanly helps when you draw Tinker against SHaman Welder.

IT is definately something that deserves more attention and more tuning, I'm all ears to what you guys think is the optimal build of this deck.

Also, Disrupt cannot possibly be a good maindeck card, especially if there are any Stax or Oath decks in your metagame.

[MoxMonkey]

Ya Minds eye is poweful but for right now since everyone has read this forum its no longer the savage under the rader power house that it once was.  I also do not see Recoup any reasons for not running it?  I have often found that with 2 Gifts Recoup is almost always needed to make sure the second Gifts can be useful, and or the first one deadly.  What has your testing shown without recoup?