Bazaar/Dredge Combo

[Ben Kossman]

Yes, it rolls over to graveyard hate. How can it be made more resiliant? It's clearly busted as all hell and mauls control
through sheer card adavtage but the question is how it holds up against Stax, Gifts, and Tendrils combo ?

Artifact:1
1 Black Lotus

Black:32
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Thug
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Darkblast
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Blue:5
4 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestrall

Green:5
4 Golgari Grave Troll
2 Life from the Loam

Land:18
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Bayou
2 Gemstone Mine

So the idea is to dredge like a cracked out Orangutang until you can play a massive Grave Troll and/or beat them down
a little more slowly with recurring Nether Shadows and Ichorids or even a bunch of Zombie Tokens. In the event of Graveyard hate it's also possible to proceed to beat them down normally but I don't recommend it. The sideboard includes
4 Ground Seals to deal wit tha haterz and 4 Chalice to give combo problems other than that it's still a work in progress...

[SimonCopp]

I came up with this list after being suitably inspired (i had some coffee).

Artifacts:2
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Black:28
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nether Shadow
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast

Blue:6
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Careful Study
1 Wonder

Green:6
4 Golgari Grave Troll
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation

Lands:18
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:15
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Ground Seal
1 Ray Of Revelation
1 Filth
1 Life from the Loam
2 Oxidize
3 Pyroclasm

[Fall-Titan]

As much as i want to say it looks good... it really doesnt. Other than the fact that this deck has recurring threats (And many would argue that the threats are not even that) This deck does not look better than Madness or even dredgeatog. Each of those decks have enough control elements to them to survive long enough to win. This is a aggro deck but with absolutely no disruption other than darkblast or cabal therapy. Each of which has limited uses. If you wish to try to run a dredge style deck with LotL and bazaar i think containing control elements is a must. This deck is not a fast a combo and yet still has less disruption. The only deck type i can see this beating on a consistent basis is pure control which is very rare right now. Maybe it could be good against stax as well but as soon as they get a threat down it is all downhill from there.

[Manpriest]

There is definitely some major improvements that could be made to these decks.  I'm at work so somewhat limited but off the top of my head, the first things I noticed:

1) Why no moxen?
2) Why no dark ritual?
3) One darkblast and no tutor effects makes it somewhat worthless I would think. (on second posted list, sorry)

Those two will at least give you a bit more of the speed you would need to make this remotely competitive aggro.

Cabal Therapy appears to be your only disruption as was said above, have you tried fitting in duress, sinkhole, hymn, any other sort of disruption to give you the chance to get your gang bang off the ground?

With no moxen you pretty much roll over and die to a stack, wire, any other piece of stax disruption.  Your opening statement said it as well, the deck rolls over and dies to graveyard hate which is fairly prevalent at the moment.

Card suggestions (again, just off top of head, not claiming this will work brilliantly or anything).

-2 Gemstone Mine
-1 Bayou
-4 Golgari Thug (unless I'm missing the creatures you actually care about having in your hand)
-4 Nether Shadow
-1 Darkblast
-1 Golgari Grave-Troll

+2 Swamp
+1 Island (or forest, depending on what testing shows to be mana base constraints)
+4 Duress
+4 Dark Ritual
+1 Mox Jet
+1 Mox Sapphire

Also, looking at the second list, Careful Study appears to be a much better fit than DA.

Just a few thoughts.

[UR]

There are two dredge cards that I've found interesting; Darkblast and Life from the Loam.

Darkblast
I've put it in my sideboard against Goblin Welder decks but Welders don't see as much play around here than theyy do in the States. But Darkblast also happens to kill Gorilla Shamans, Meddling Mage (albeit with a little more effort than I would like), Dark Confidant and some random aggro guys. It is useful, but not stellar.

Life from the Loam
I've been testing this thing because Intuition just looked a whole lot sexier. Life from the Loam, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon/Squee, Goblin Nabob gets two of my combopieces or long-term cardadvantage. That was the plan anyway. But looking at my strategy I realised that I don't want the games to go long because I'll lose. So I've become increaslingly dissappointed with the card and I've cut it for a Balance. That being said, I do think the LftL may be good in a deck that doesn't realistically kill the opponent on turn 3, especially if you are running Bazaar.

But your deck doesn't really seem to take advantage of the Bazaar. After you've dredged your entire deck into your graveyard, what are you going to do with it? Aren't you throwing away too many key-cards? Have you looked into the Bazaar-Madness deck? Maybe that will hold some inspiration for you (excuse me that I cannot provide a link or a list at the time, but I'm sure there is a list around this place if you look).

[Vegeta2711]

Ugh.

#1. Nether Shadow sucks at hurting people. Ashen Ghoul doesn't. Ghoul and Ichroid deal 3 damage. Shadow is like a worse Cloud of Faeries.
#2. Zombie Infestation and Psychatog are two of the best cards in the deck. Arguably it's difficult to fit all this stuff in, but it's really worth keeping -some- of this stuff in if possible.
#3. Needs more than 14-15 sources of mana to run. Sad, but true.

[Dozer]

The best starting point for any discussion of these decks certainly is GP Charlotte. It is Extented, but I think the list that Krumb won with is very tight. The real question you have to ask is: Can this even compete in Vintage? Is the deck idea itself viable? With Gifts and Slaver in the environment, graveyard hat has become somewhat popular. Whereas those decks can win through Tormod's Crypt, Ichorizzo cannot. The best way to combat that is Pithing Needle, no question, but since this deck has no draw but only Dredge, it is clear that it is best played in an environment without Tormod's Crypt.

Also, the deck dies to Wasteland. Read the Extended coverage from Charlotte; a deck that tries to play on two lands in Vintage and never draws another one while operating completely out of the graveyard will have trouble against Wasteland.

All that being said, when porting the deck to Vintage, I'd want both Therapy and Force of Will in the deck, which is almost impossible for space reasons. For the deck to work, you definitely want the core of

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
4 Ichorid
4 Tolarian Winds --> these could arguably be completely replaced by Bazaar, but Winds is still more powerful

Zombie Infestation gives this deck more resilience and a lot more punch, so it would belong to the core as well. Life from the Loam solves the Wasteland problem and also helps with not being able to draw land from your library, so it ios good to have but difficult to fit in. As secondary draw engine, the aforementioned Deep Analysis is hot. A sample test list would look like this for me:

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
4 Ichorid
4 Zombie Infestation

2 Deep Analysis
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast (you Dredge so much, you will always find this)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Bazaar of Baghdad/ Tolarian Winds

7 SoLoMoxen
4 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

...and I feel that this list has not enough mana in the right colors, even.

On second thoughts, it seems a shame not to play Will + Recoup for a Tendrils kill in the dredge deck. Looking at that idea, though, I see a better way to fill your graveyard with your deck: Orchard + Oath. Dredge isn't better than Oath + Krosan Reclamation, not at all, so why even bother? Play this deck in Extended, where it comes from, or maybe in Legacy, where Swords and Crypt own it hardcore. It's a fun deck. I haven't tested this to say if it is really not viable, but I see no strong reason to play such a fragile deck when Crypts are on the rise.

Dozer

[Vegeta2711]

Actually you probably wouldn't even bother with the SoLoMoxen. This deck craves on-color mana for the most-part. Maybe like Mox Jet and Black Lotus. In addition that opens you up to running something like 3-4 Null Rod and maybe even Chalice as well. Also 4 DA is like ++++.

Cabal Therapy + secondary disruption is pretty awesome.

Sad part is I mostly agree with Dozer here. The deck, as it stands, needs some more oomph.Though with the success of this deck

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25424.0

I hold out some hope.

[DarkDeal]

I was considering smashing together Rizzo and Dragon to see if I could come up with something. The dredge speed that Rizzo has could get dragon going incredibly fast. Since we are dredging so damn much, it is likely that reanimate spells will be put in the yard, I think Recoup should be played because of that. I also feel that Wheel of Fortune and Windfall could also be put to good use here. The list will be crazy tight but I think it would be better than a straight Rizzo deck.

I was also thinking that if you play Life from the Loam, you have to play atleast Stripmine.

Mana problems can also come up. I would think that a few more basics and some Riftstone Portals would be needed. Portals will help a lot with getting the mana you need and if they are on basics they cant be wasted.

[Guli]

In my humble opinion dark is right. I have been trying to actually build a deck around strip mine and LFTL ever since ravinca came out. First i tried some kinda armagedon deck to lock down an opponent and using gorilla shamans to take out moxes but it just doesnt cut it. Then i thought using Nether Void. Basicly i would like my deck to shut of any kind of artifact mana as fast as possible. I can't think of a better card than null rod to do this. So no need for shamans. Also chalice is interesting but when i tried several deck constructions i realized i needed low casting cost cards myself and the chalice would only be good if i drew it in my opening hand and i was going first. Still maybe it is worth playing with chalice nevertheless. I thought if we are going to use black and green maybe it would be nice to use mana creatures because they are not affected by the null rod.

4 Duress
3 Nether Void
4 Null rod
3 Life from the loam
4 Wasteland
4 Living wish
1 Fastbond
1 Demonic consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 yawghmoths wil
1 regrowthl

SB
Strip Mine
Boseiju, Who Shelters All (kinde cute with a void)
Maze of ith
Nimble Mongoose
Nimble Mongoose
Xantid Swarm
Phyrexian Negator
.... the  correct SB configuration needs time and thinking but these were my first thoughts.

With the 4 wishes and 2 best tutors i think finding solutions for board problems will be more easy. Maybe Imperial seal and vampiric tutor should be added aswell. I have a deck list and i am playing with it but i know for sure it is far from ready to be posted. I would like to post some ideas.

Werebear  Cost: {G}
: Add to your mana pool.
Threshold - Werebear gets +3/+3. (You have threshold as long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

I think this is a very interesting creatures with the dredge and void in our minds. It has synergy with both the lock cards. However it might be slow. So far i found him very powerfull but maybe there are better solutions. Sometimes a simple nantuko shade can finish the game faster and more effecient. However the shade is mana intensive. Then again using the bear to beatdown means you cant use it for mana aswell. Anyway the bear is more versitale and should be considered. Besides you could wish for a creature once the lock is there. I think that is the direction i want this deck to go. Build the deck around loam/waste(strip) and lockdown cards like null and void. We can wish for a negator or Blurred Mongoose once things are locked. Or simply kill him with a bear in 4-5 turns.

4 Birds of paradise or 4 Fyndhorn elves? Well i think birds would be safer for the mana base. but then again a fyndhorn could attack under a void. I feel like bop is correct.

Another interesting mana producing card that will not be affected by my own lock components (if they ever se play) is elvish spirith guide. Without moxes this migh speed things up making it possible to put down a null rod turn 1 or turn 2 void if you opened with a BOP

I also thought about using white to splash Suppression field and Kataki, War's Wage. Kataki basicly hoses moxes aswell and hurts artifact heavy decks and might be needed to give this deck a good chance. But i feel like i should replace null rod with kataki because they don't really go that well togheter and basicly they have the same goal: Mess with the artifact mana your opponent tries to utilise to work around the strip/waste and void lock. Also swords to plowshares would be nice.

I am merely brainstorming now so please bare with me. Another idea is to combine that zombie/bazaar deck that has won a red mox or something. Zombie infestation really appeals me. bazaar doesnt give me mana and i don't think it would work well in a void deck. You can't expect to be a void effective when you wait too much with it. It should hit the table turn 3 or 4. But coming back to infestation. It also works well with Life from the loam and Void aswell. Maybe it is pesky and not needed. Maybe i should do what i was saying myself, focus on getting those lock components in game and remove any possible threats THEN go wish or tutor for a win condition.


other interesting cards would be Ray of Revelation,Darkblast(antiwelder and against BOP or other mana creatures). I just wanted to note those aswel.



It would be nice if some experienced players would comment here so i could go in the right direction with this idea.





I

[CBG_232x5]

If we are considering a strategy in which lands are used as control components/win conditions, why not use exploration as acceleration. The ability to play an additional land for a G provides early acceleration is very powerful and it makes a Life from the Loam more explosive when the deck is establishing its lock.

I only bring this up because I was considering the following play while brainstorming on this deck:
Turn 1: Green Source, Exploration/Fastbond, wasteland, activate waste
Turn 2: Green Source, Living Wish (Strip mine), Stripmine, activate strip
Turn 3: Life from the Loam (targetting Strip, Waste, and fetchland), play and activate any of the two.

At that point, The dredge deck is sitting with two/three mana sources (which I belive should allow it to cast most of its other lock components), while the opponent is down two non-basics, plus one other land (two if the dredge player is on the draw)

I do not know if this is a valid point, but I just wanted to put it out there.

[Guli]

The problem is when you put in several acceleraters (exploration) to get exlposive there is the risk of having to little actual threats. And your hand will be empty or almost empty. I think fastbond is enough supported with tutors. The idea is to get powerfull cards that affect the board (mostly to hinder opponents mana base) and the loam is an engine like crucible/strip but it is a sorcery that keeps getting back. So it can not simply be stopped.

Even without explorations your hand size will be reduced fast. That is why Chains of Mephistopheles is also interesing as another disruptive card stopping opponents from gaining card advantage and finding solutions with brainstorm or bazar.

[Ben Kossman]

So Mono B seems like a solid choice. I can use Skullclamp and Bazaar for my draw engine and get a mana base that's a bit
more stable than a multicolored build. In making the deck mono black with Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul the deck becomes a bit more consistent and less dependent on Dredge (but it still packs 12 Dredge Spells).

Artifact:6
4 Skullclamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet

Black:36
4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Nether Shadow
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Land:18
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
14 Swamp

The sideboard is interesting as well. If the other guy is going to side in Graveyard hate there are two viable options.

1. Side in Pithing Needle and/or Chalice to stop Tormod's Crypt
2. Go with a transformational side that uses Negator, Nantuko Shade, Wretch and Wasteland to make their hate
useless

A U/B build is probably packs more raw power but this seems consistent enough to make it a viable alternative...

[UR]

Why not replace some of those dredge cards with Golgari Grave Troll? It has dredge 6 so you can put way more cards in your graveyard. You can't cast it, but you aren't going to cast Golgari Thug either, and I doubt Stinkweed Imp will do you much good when it is in play.

[Ben Kossman]

Honestly if one's running Bazzar the only Dredge card worth playing is Golgari Grave Troll. The extended version of this
deck is based around a three-four turn kill but as we already know that doesn't cut it in type one. The other option is
turning this deck into Dragon which from a competitive standpoint is really the only option aside from playing Bazaar with
Tog. Here's what I'm playing now...

Artifact:6
5 Moxen
1 Lotus

Black:16
4 Animate Dead
4 Shred Memory
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Entomb

Blue:10
4 Circular Logic
4 Compulsion
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestrall

Green:6
4 Golgari Grave Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regrowth

Red:4
4 Worldgorger Dragon

Land:18
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Island

Shred Memory is an amazing utility card as well as doing double duty as a tutor in a pinch. Note you can go get Regrowth, Demonic Tutor, or Time Walk with it. This deck is quite consistent when one replaces the Squees with Grave Troll. If you
get two in hand then your looking at TWELVE CARDS A TURN. If that ain't busted I don't know what is. This deck wins
by recurring Ancestrall with Witness. That's pretty much the story, not much else to it really. If anyone else has replaced
Squee with Troll I'd love to hear your thoughts on the deck. The input on this post has already been excellent, keep it coming...

[policehq]

The bonuses for Stinkweed Imp are:
-Ability to cast for flashback Cabal Therapy.
-If you're using Unmask for disruption, you can remove it from the game.

The only possible bonus for Golgari Grave-Troll is Animate Dead, which none of the decks so far have used.

What I want to know is: Why hasn't anyone been testing Vampire Hounds?! Going +10/+10 every turn is nice.

-hq