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Author Topic: Standings and tiebreakers -- who makes top 8?  (Read 4334 times)
Jacob Orlove
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« on: December 17, 2005, 03:53:04 pm »

Since this is a confusing issue for some, I'm going to copy over an analysis I wrote on our team boards:

Tiebreakers are easy. Basically, if players have the same record, you order them based on their first tiebreaker. If they have identical 1st breakers, go to the 2nd breaker, and if that's still a tie, go to the 3rd breaker. Also, just in case this isn't clear, a win is 3 points, a draw is 1 point, and a loss is 0 points. Players are ranked by total points, with tiebreakers, um, breaking ties. :D

So, if 6 players are X-0-2 (that is, two draws and the rest wins) or better, and four players are X-1-1, the two X-1-1s with the higher tiebreakers will make top 8, and the two with lower breakers will not.

For the technically inclined, first tiebreaker is opponent match win %. If your opponents do well, this number goes up. Thus, being paired against someone with a good record in the final round will tend to improve this # (note that getting a bye is in fact the best possible situation for your tiebreakers, not the worst). So, if you've lost to a teammate, it can sometimes be a good idea to keep playing, if you can win your matches and if their tiebreakers will be relevant. You definitely don't want to play and lose a bunch of matches in that situation, though, as that will only sabotage your teammate.

For example, take the breakers going into the final round of the most recent SCG Richmond, including the best of the X-2s, for reasons we'll see later (Richmond was the last SCG to publish round by round standings):

Code:
                                         Op-Match  PL-Game  Op-Game  Matches
Rank Name                         Points     Win%     Win%     Win%  P/W/D/B
   1 Cottrell, Scott                  13  62.0000  80.0000  57.4286  5/4/1/0
   2 Probasco, Andy                   13  58.6667  80.0000  55.1026  5/4/1/0
   3 Obrien, Adam                     13  54.6667  81.8182  55.4662  5/4/1/0
   4 Tran, Nam Q                      12  65.3333  66.6667  61.7662  5/4/0/0
   5 Timoney, Justin                  12  60.6667  64.2857  57.3377  5/4/0/0
   6 Orlove, Jacob                    12  52.0000  75.0000  51.4662  5/4/0/0
   7 Early, David                     12  48.0000  72.7273  52.0606  5/4/0/0
   8 Sears, Van                       12  44.6667  64.2857  47.4709  5/4/0/0
   9 Halstead, Chad                   10  60.0000  63.6364  61.3030  5/3/1/0
  10 Pinchot, Jesse A                 10  49.3333  53.8462  53.0101  5/3/1/0
  11 Michaels, Anthony                10  42.6667  57.5758  48.2222  5/3/1/0
  12 Magyar, Peter                     9  60.0000  53.8462  58.7273  5/3/0/0
  13 Marchand, Chris                   9  58.6667  63.6364  55.6177  5/3/0/0
  14 Houdlette, Stephen                9  58.6667  60.0000  53.2121  5/3/0/0

Before we start, note that there are only 7 people with breakers over 50. Now, the low breakers will rise a bit because everyone here is getting paired against someone with a good record, but there's basically no way for the 7 people with good breakers to be out of contention if they end this round with at least 13 points. Second and third tiebreakers are essentially irrelevant here (as usual) because we don't have people with identical 1st breakers. Oddly enough, 5th and 6th place after this round will have identical 1st breakers, but neither of them is at risk of not making T8.

Also, I'm incorporating some knowledge of what the pairings were, since that's something you'll know going into the last round.

First, let's look at the lucky players who are X-0-1, or 13 points. Two of them will be paired against one another and will draw in. The third will be paired down. This tournament was unusual in that there were a large number of people with winning records and poor breakers. In fact, since only 6 in-contention people have breakers comparable or better than Adam Obrien's, it doesn't matter which 13s are paired--the remaining one will make T8 win, lose, or draw. Two 13s will draw to 14, at most three 12s will win to 15, and there is one 10 who can win to 13 and have better breakers. That still leaves two slots for more 13s. If the 12s draw to 13, then it's just an issue of breakers, and all the people currently at 13 are still fine.

What actually happened: Brassy was the one paired down, and he chose to play (to try and knock a bad matchup out of T8 contention). The others drew into T8.

Next, the 12s. Nam or Justin will be paired up against one of the 13s (most likely Nam, unless he's played that person already), and can draw in because their breakers are so good. As I said before, there is no way for someone at 13 points and with a breaker above 50 to be knocked out.

What actually happened: Nam played Andy, but didn't realize he could draw in, so he was fine with Andy's decision to play it out.

Next, Justin or Nam (whoever wasn't paired up) will likely be paired with Jacob, unless that match has already happened in the swiss. Assuming it hasn't, they will both be able to draw in, because everyone else has awful tiebreakers. Jacob's 52% will go up a bit because his opponent is 4-1, and the closest behind him is 49%, who would have to have all his previous opponents play in the final round and win for his breakers to rise significantly. Even if they do, that'd put Jacob in 8th place. There's no way for him to not make T8 if he draws. Since I figured this out, I offered the draw and it was accepted.

Now, we know that the two 13s make it. We know that me and Justin make it, and that Andy does. If Nam wins, he is also in. That leaves two or three slots left. David and Van could draw here, but we know that (at least) one of the 10s will win, to be at 13 points. They're at a high risk of drawing themselves into 9th, as Nam winning or two 10s winning leaves them with one slot. Since Van's tiebreakers are abysmal, he can't draw here. David is also at risk if it comes down to tiebreakers, so he too has to play. The winner eats another T8 slot for sure. That means if Nam wins, there will be one slot left.

Now, the low end of the bracket--the 10s. All these players must play out their matches, as they will need 13 points to make top 8. A draw puts them at 11 points, behind the X-2s at 12, and clearly out of contention. Now, Chad and Jesse will probably play here, leaving Anthony paired down. Whoever of Chad and Jesse wins will have better breakers than Anthony, so if he wins he's still only in T8 if Nam loses. The winner of the Chad/Jesse fight should make it in.

Here's where it gets bizarre, though: if Brassy wins his fight and Anthony loses, that's only 7 slots filled, which would let someone at X-2 miraculously squeak into the top 8. Unfortunately for the other X-2s, if Nam loses, he will have the best breakers of any X-2 (especially with a boost from playing against Andy).

So, the T8 is set at Scott, Andy, Adam, Me, Justin, Nam if he wins or if he and Anthony both lose, Anthony if he wins and Nam loses, David or Van (whoever wins the match), and Chad or Jesse (whoever wins that match), all assuming that no one is bizarrely paired due to prior matchups (which they weren't).

Let's take a look at the top 9 players after Round 8:
Code:
                                         Op-Match  PL-Game  Op-Game  Matches
Rank Name                         Points     Win%     Win%     Win%  P/W/D/B
   1 Tran, Nam Q                      15  63.1481  66.6667  63.1502  6/5/0/0
   2 Early, David                     15  49.2593  71.4286  50.7889  6/5/0/0
   3 Cottrell, Scott                  14  63.8889  80.0000  60.5915  6/4/2/0
   4 Obrien, Adam                     14  59.2593  81.8182  61.0783  6/4/2/0
   5 Probasco, Andy                   13  61.1111  69.2308  57.4306  6/4/1/0
   6 Timoney, Justin                  13  61.1111  64.2857  58.9423  6/4/1/0
   7 Orlove, Jacob                    13  52.9630  75.0000  51.0431  6/4/1/0
   8 Pinchot, Jesse A                 13  49.0741  56.2500  52.7898  6/4/1/0
   9 Marchand, Chris                  12  58.3333  64.2857  55.6102  6/4/0/0
So Nam won and Anthony lost, leaving exactly 8 players with 13+ points. Because tiebreakers matter, people were forced to play in a way that made them irrelevant for determining who made T8.

Any questions?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2005, 09:37:42 pm by Jacob Orlove » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2005, 09:23:19 pm »

I would like it if you labeled each column.

I'm a very visual person and usually need to see exactly what it is I'm being taught.

Thanks.
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2005, 09:28:23 pm »

Hrm.  Now I feel stupid, I thought tiebreakers were something totally different.

This definitely helped a lot, thanks!
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2005, 09:38:41 pm »

I would like it if you labeled each column.
Done! The P/W/D/B column is number of games Played, Won, Drawn, and Byes. The rest is pretty self-explanatory.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2005, 09:48:29 pm »

Thank you sir.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2005, 09:48:48 pm »

Thanks for clearing up the Bye thing, I've been told both versions over the years.
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2005, 11:14:17 pm »

A bye is considered a 100% win percentage for tiebreakers?
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 01:58:41 am »

A bye is considered a 100% win percentage for tiebreakers?
For that one round, yes.
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 04:19:35 am »

Nice Read.

I could have used this info, when I was 6-1 in Sealed deck at GP Leipzig back in spring.
I lost my next game, going to 6-2, and when my opponent asked me to draw in the final round of the day (Rnd 9), I refused, since I didn't want to "risk" my chance of day two (my deck was very good). I should clearly have drawn with him, since my tie-breakers were so good, but once you've tried drawing yourself _OUT_ of top 8/day 2, you get a bit paranoid about doing this.
I ended up in 79th place with my 6-3 record, where top 64 qualified. A draw would have been sufficient. Too bad.

(If you don't like limited, ignore the rest of this post.)

Leipzig Sealed deck:
1 Frostling
1 Kami Of False Hope
1 Genju Of The Fields

1 Nezumi Cutthroat
1 Kiku, Night's Flower
1 Indomitable Will
1 Konda's Hatamoto

1 Kabuto Moth
1 Honden Of Infinite Rage
1 Yamabushi's Flame
1 Takenuma Bleeder
1 Waxmane Baku

1 Mothrider Samurai
1 Torrent Of Stone
1 Harsh Deceiver
1 Befoul
1 Eradicate
1 Blind With Anger
1 Devouring Greed
1 Gibbering Kami
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi

1 Scuttling Death
1 Heartless Hidetsugu

7 Swamp
5 Plains
5 Mountain

Notes:
I never mulliganed a single game, in spite of my horrible mana base. How lucky!
I never got to play my Blind With Anger a single time throughout 9 rounds  :shock: Confused
Almost Everyone at the top tables had Jitte, go figure.


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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 04:24:53 am »

Are all "sanctioned" tourneys calculated the same way? What program calculates the top 8 tiebreakers?

I have played in relatively professional tourneys (Eudemonia in Berkely) and relatively scrub, yet sanctioned tourneys (uh, my hometown.  Home of 2 Black Lotuses, etc).

As a side note, when Power is on the line, and I have a decent enough record, I usually ask people who I think know what they are talking about for advise on tiebreakers (You know who you are).

This is a great topic for discussion, as "offering the draw" is a tactic that works, and is valid, but is unusable unless you know it will work.
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 12:11:21 pm »

Are all "sanctioned" tourneys calculated the same way? What program calculates the top 8 tiebreakers?
Pretty much everyone should be using DCI Reporter, which calculates all this stuff automatically.
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 12:25:15 pm »

Quote
What actually happened: Nam played Andy, but didn't realize he could draw in, so he was fine with Andy's decision to play it out.

I was under the impression that I had to beat Andy in order to make Top 8. I was told that there was a pretty high chance of me not making Top 8 had I lost to Andy, so I was treating it as a win out or not make prize situation. I wish I would have known this so I didn't have to play Jesse in the first round of Top 8 and lose! I still got a Mox Jet though. Next time, in March, I'll just ask you, Jacob, ok?  Very Happy
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 12:36:28 pm »

Well, if Anthony had won his match, you would have been in 9th place, even with your amazing tiebreakers. Really, you should have just talked Andy into a draw. Next time, I can definitely do math for people, though, assuming I'm still in contention.

One last note that I didn't have up there: SCG determines the difference between 3rd and 4th and between 5th-8th based on your final finishing order in the swiss. In this case, because Nam finished in 1st place, even though he lost in the first round of t8, he still got 5th place. If he'd drawn with Andy, he could have finished more like 7th, which is the difference between a Jet and like an Emerald or Pearl. Of course, the matchups would have all been different, so it's hard to judge, but there is definitely value to starting higher in the T8.
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2005, 01:17:11 pm »

I found that to be a really good read and I learned something from it and I think I will continue to learn more later.  I thought that all 3 breakers mattered usually and was unaware that the first column is taken into effect except in situations where you and an opponent have the same record and first breaker column.  Definitely a good thread for all people who don't fully understand the breakers system.

A bye is considered a 100% win percentage for tiebreakers?
For that one round, yes.

But you must also remember that in every round after the first (where it is assigned randomly) it is given to the lowest ranked player.   So even though you now have better breakers, your actual win percentage which obviously means more than any breaker is low.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 01:19:55 pm by Lyle H » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2005, 01:31:08 pm »

Maybe this is what was meant and I misunderstood, but a BYE does not actually directly affect your 1st tiebreaker at all, because it is your opponents' match-win percentage. You ignore rounds where you got a BYE when you calculate it.

After a first round BYE, your 1st tiebreaker is 0.0000 %, not 100.0000 %, because you haven't had an opponent yet. If you win the second round, it will be 50 % (assuming you weren't paired down) because your one opponent has now won half of his matches, if you lose, it will be 100 %.

In a GP for example, having three byes of course helps your tiebreakers, because you first get paired against someone with three wins. If you win, you are paired against someone with 4 wins already and so on. In the end, your tiebreakers are not affected by 0-2-DO people.
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2005, 08:05:59 pm »

So the obvious conclusion is to win all of your matches 2-0. Cool

Good read Jacob, thanks.
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2005, 04:19:55 am »

but once you've tried drawing yourself _OUT_ of top 8/day 2, you get a bit paranoid about doing this.
I ended up in 79th place with my 6-3 record, where top 64 qualified. A draw would have been sufficient. Too bad.

Why would you want to draw into Day2 though? It doesn't really get you anything, and if you want to finish high, you might as well play all or nothing.
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2005, 06:47:37 pm »

Can we get this stickied somewhere, since the information contained within will be relevant for some time now? I guess this is one of the threads people will look for often, and it shouldn't be lost on the back pages. Excellent work, Jacob.

@ rvs: Isn't it better to make day 2 than not? It makes sense to draw into day 2 just to have a shot at the money. If you don't make day 2, even that shot is gone.

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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2005, 07:03:55 pm »

Maybe I've missed it somewhere, but what are the 2nd and 3rd tiebreakers?  I remember reading about them before, but I can't remember now for the life of me.
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2005, 07:13:49 pm »

The second and third tiebreakers are Game Win Percentage and Opponents' Game Win Percentage.
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