[Discussion] The Legacy Grand Prix (Lille)

[Bardo]

The live coverage can be found here.

Of note:

The turnout today is a healthy 937 players, making this the largest ever Legacy tournament. As a result the tournament will again be split into two halves, blue and green (or Dimir and Selesnya if you prefer), with the top 64 from each being combined at the end of the day.

Good luck to all of the TMDers playing!

[Matt]

 9    Van Soest, Rudy [NLD]     15    vs.    Marotta, Marco [ITA]     15

That's RVS, or MoreFling, a TMDer at 9th in the blue bracket!

I'm not seeing Toad (Matthieu Durand)'s name anywhere, did he not make it?

Also of note: Manuel Bevand beat UGR Gro with BBS!

[Matt]

Ruud Warmenhoven is playing Affinity and is at 19th place going into 9th round.

Nicolas Labarre, with URG Gro, is in 1st place in the blue bracket.

[Jacob Orlove]

Matthieu is probably judging.

[Godder]

The Affinity dragon has led a fairly charmed life in extended but now we're into real man's Magic and Mueller broke its back over his knee with an Energy Flux in Game 2.

There are over 600 Frenchies at this thing - they've beaten GP: Philly by themselves. Looking at the standings, there are heaps of amateurs, even at the top.

Rudy van Soest (rvs) is currently at 39th in his group with one round to play, so he will make day 2 if he can win his 9th round, and he has a chance even if he doesn't win, thanks to solid tiebreakers. It looks like the cut-off will be 18 or 19 points, but it's hard to say how many players will make it with only 18.

Pro Players of note who I found in a quick run-through:

Nicolas LaBarre, Antoine Ruel, Gabriel Nassif, Raphael Levy, Julien Nujiten, Yann Hamon (playing Cogniv-Oath... er... Cognivore/Gamekeeper), Pierre Canali, Ruud Warmenhoven, Jeroen Remie, Frank Karsten, Olivier Ruel.

[Matt]

Aaaand the top deck from each bracket are R/W Lightning Rift and UGR Gro, piloted by Nick LaBarre. It should be no surprise that LaBarre went with Gro - this was the man who took the original Fish deck to second place at PT Rome, the only extended PT which allowed the full power of Urza's Saga (and specifically Tolarian Academy) in all its glory.

Biggest surprse? Somehow a Charbelcher deck went 8-0 before losing to LaBarre!

[Eddie]

Rudy, Menno and Tim Bergmann are in. Those are the T1 players I know off.

[Machinus]

If they do 128 players, then nassif makes day 2...but which are they doing?

[Jacob Orlove]

If they do 128 players, then nassif makes day 2...but which are they doing?

They're doing the top 64 for each group, so 128 total.

[Machinus]

If they do 128 players, then nassif makes day 2...but which are they doing?

They're doing the top 64 for each group, so 128 total.

What is the cutoff? Is it 512?

[bomholmm]

looks like the Lille meta game is nothing but Threshold and goblins.  Nice and boring, oh well.

[Godder]

Jones has written that it's a sea of threshold and goblins, although there are obviously other decks around as well (Belcher...). Aside from Nicolas Labarre, notable Pro players to make it include Antoine Ruel, Raphael Levy, Geoffrey Siron, Gabriel Nassif, Julien Nujiten, Frank Karsten, Olivier Ruel, Pierre Canali, and Ruud Warmenhoven. Jeroen Remie missed out, coming in 65th(!) in his group, while Yann Hamon finished 104th in his group.

[Jacob Orlove]

If they do 128 players, then nassif makes day 2...but which are they doing?

They're doing the top 64 for each group, so 128 total.

What is the cutoff? Is it 512?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=grandprix/lille05/facts:

Tournament Structure
The structure for Grand Prix–Lille will be modified Swiss-style (50-minute rounds), with the Top 64 players (or 128 if 800 or more players registered for the main event) advancing to the second day of competition for prizes and invitations. The top 16 Players will receive invitations to the Pro Tour in Honolulu

[SpencerForHire]

looks like the Lille meta game is nothing but Threshold and goblins.  Nice and boring, oh well.

Gabrial Nassif is running Solitary Confinement.

[t3h_fury]

Marco Prete of Italy went 8-1 with Belcher.  How do you pull that off in a field of NQG?

[SpencerForHire]

I smell good combo!! I can't wait for a list.

[Bardo]

The Top 128 broken down by archetype:

Threshold   36
of which:   
Threshold w/Red   19
Threshold w/White   14
Threshold w/Red & White   3
Goblins   32
RDW   7
Affinity   7
BW Pikula   6
RW Rift   5
Zoo   5
Boros Deck Wins   3
Landstill   3
Flame Vault   2
Salvagers Combo   2
High Tide   2
2 land Charbelcher   2
Solitary Confinement   2
Aluren   2
Rock   2
Burning Tog   1
Illusions/Donate   1
UW Control   1
Enchantress   1
UG Control   1
Survival   1
Life   1
CAL   1
White Weenie   1
Dumptruck   1
Total   128

Further Broken-Down (this may be a little off, depending on how you count)

Aggro: 51
Aggro-Control: 42
Combo: 21
Control: 14

That's a lot of Werebears and Lackeys... Damn.

Of note, undefeated at the end of day 1: 4c Threshold (Helmut Summersberger)

3  Volcanic Island
4  Flooded Strand
4  Polluted Delta
3  Tundra
4  Tropical Island
(18 land)

4  Meddling Mage
4  Werebear
4  Nimble Mongoose

4  Serum Visions
2  Fire/Ice
2  Pithing Needle
3  Lightning Bolt
4  Brainstorm
4  Daze
4  Mental Note
3  Counterspell
4  Force of Will

SIDEBOARD
3  Tormod's Crypt
2  Divert
4  Chill
3  Wasteland
2  Red Elemental Blast
1  Naturalize

4 colors + 18 lands + 3 Wastelands in the sideboard = Bardo, confused.

0 basic lands + sea of Wasteland = dude + big balls

[SpencerForHire]

His genitals will engulf us all.  It could also mean the optimal form of threshold... Then again most likely not.

[Smmenen]

So, apparently the only two good decks in Legacy are gobilns and threshold. 

[SpencerForHire]

I have no objections.  Though 9th place for Confinement is pretty good, and I still wanna see that belcher list.

[Buttons]

The meta for Legacy seems really unbalanced compared to Vintage.

In Vintage, we currently have about 10 really good decks, about 6 absolute top tier.

Stax  (I'm not separating between Uba and 5c, but if you count that, it's 7 top tier).
Grimlong
Belcher
Gifts
Control Slaver
Oath

It seems all Legacy has is Goblins and Threshold.

All of the decks for Vintage, right there, btw, are very exciting and dramatic.

Goblins is boring, and Threshold isn't much better.

[Bardo]

The meta for Legacy seems really unbalanced compared to Vintage.

You have to understand that Legacy is still in its infancy and is extremely undeveloped. The format still hasn't achieved the critical mass it needs to develop a truly dynamic and innovative metagame.

Maybe this will change; maybe not.

Edit - And Legacy has a lot more than Threshold and Goblins; but those decks are really over-emphasized at Lille.

[Peter_Rotten]

So, apparently the only two good decks in Legacy are gobilns and threshold.  

I guess so.  Thank God nothing crappy like Illusions Donate or Flame Stax is any good.  I think that the only obvious answer is to play Burning Tog.

The meta for Legacy seems really unbalanced compared to Vintage...
...It seems all Legacy has is Goblins and Threshold.

All of the decks for Vintage, right there, btw, are very exciting and dramatic.

Goblins is boring, and Threshold isn't much better.

Opinions.  All opinions.  I look at Stax and Oath and quickly slip into a boredom-induced-coma.  And the meta unbalanced?  What do you mean?  There are currently dominant decks - Thresh and Goblins.  Neither one does something that is classicly defined as broken (granted, Lackey may be the exception).  Neither one seems unfair or undefeatable.  Kill some dudes or Attack the manabase.  Hell, creature hating decks should be making a comeback soon.  Or maybe something like 3-Deuce with Bolts, Burn, StPs, and Werebears and Granger Guildmages (that little 1/1 that burn or give first strike - roar!)

[Buttons]

Let's hope it changes.

Maybe unrestricting things instead of restricting them might make things more balanced?

I just got done reading one of Smennen's ancient articles on "Type 1."  That old.

Steve goes on to say that Welder, Workshop, Mana Drain, and Dark Ritual are unrestricted.  Restricting them would UNBALANCE the format, because random tier 2 combo would dominate.  He's absolutely right.

Goblins dominate because Legacy isn't fast enough to deal with them.

Granted, I'm not a Legacy player.  There should be healthy amounts of control, combo, and aggro, and even prison.

We see in Type 1 right now control-combo (gifts), fast combo (belcher, grimlong), slow combo (dragon), aggro-control (any Fish variant), Prison (Stax), aggro-combo (FCG, although it's not been healthy lately), almost pure control (Control Slaver) and Oath which fits into like, three categories.

If you want to narrow it down even further, we basically have four main archetypes.

Aggro, (Fish, FCG)
Control (Gifts, Control Slaver)
Combo (Dragon, Grimlong, Belcher)
Prison (5c, Uba, Cron)

and Oath.

Legacy has...

Aggro.
Aggro-Control.

Those are the archetypes of LIMITED, only CONSTRUCTED.

Legacy has a archetype problem right now.

Have they thought about unrestricting cheap mana acceleration, like Mana Vault?  We have to remember that Mana Vault wasn't restricted in type one until BBS.

If Mana Vault was unrestricted right now, EVERYTHING would get stronger, but most noticably any combo variant and prison, although control might benefit a small bit.

Aggro would be left in the dark by default.

The point of Legacy, I assume, is to make a format where you can purchase things fairly cheaply and it's like a slower type 1.

That doesn't mean decks in Legacy should suck.  Unrestricting fast mana (which is cheap to buy) like Mana Vault could really vitalize Legacy.

[Bardo]

Have they thought about unrestricting cheap mana acceleration, like Mana Vault?  We have to remember that Mana Vault wasn't restricted in type one until BBS.

Here's the thing: There's no restricted list, only a banned list. And giving everyone access to 4 Mana Vaults will not for a healthy format make. And it's not like someone can't make a deck that's powered by 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petals, 4 Mox Diamonds, and 4 Chrome Moxen right now anyway. The problem there is a problem of stability -- which the best decks, Goblins and Threshold, let's say, possess as hallmarks of their design.

Personally, I think the format just needs a little time to develop and for a dedicated core of actually good players/designers (i.e. people who are not me) to inject some meaningful diversity into the format.

Alternately, the format needs a rakso-like character who will so obsessively write about the format that people have no choice but to take notice and try it out. And more players -> more innovation.

[Buttons]

You know I meant unban.  We never say unban in Vintage.  I accidentally said unrestrict.

I don't think they'd actually ever unban Mana Vault.  I'm just pitching ideas out there.

They could always unban Mana Vault and ban another mana accelerant.  Iggy Pop would be way too good if given all of that.  It's already pretty good.

[Machinus]

0 basic lands + sea of Wasteland = dude + big balls

At the point where you are running four colors of spells, I don't think squeezing two islands is going to make much of a difference. The fetchlands actually offer protection in some fashion, which I'm sure he too advtantage of.

[Peter_Rotten]

Goblins dominate because Legacy isn't fast enough to deal with them.

Granted, I'm not a Legacy player.  There should be healthy amounts of control, combo, and aggro, and even prison.

We see in Type 1 right now control-combo (gifts), fast combo (belcher, grimlong), slow combo (dragon), aggro-control (any Fish variant), Prison (Stax), aggro-combo (FCG, although it's not been healthy lately), almost pure control (Control Slaver) and Oath which fits into like, three categories.

...

Legacy has...
Aggro.
Aggro-Control.
....
Legacy has a archetype problem right now.

....The point of Legacy, I assume, is to make a format where you can purchase things fairly cheaply and it's like a slower type 1.
....

Not flaming, trolling, or trying to be offensive, but you seem to have a very "Type I" view of Legacy.  Yes, Aggro and AggroControl are the dominant Archetypes.  Our combo is unstable and our control is slow.  Classic Artifact prison is not viable without Workshop or Metalworker - aggro can drop more permanents.  I don't see this as a bad thing yet.

Also, look at the Top 8 of GPLille...

Threshold w/ white and red vs. UWR Landstill
Survival vs. Goblins splash White
Threshold w/ red vs. The Game
Rifter s. Threshold w/ white

3 Threshold decks
1 Goblins
1 Survival (Rec Sur build - not a classic ATS or RGSA variant - 3 Duress/4 Therapies/4 StP - true Survival Control)
1 Rifter
1 Game (combo)
1 SmennenEatsHat.dec

Seems relatively diverse to me:

3 AggroControl
1 Aggro
3 Control
1 Combo

No messing with Mod text, as you know. - Bardo[/color]

[Machinus]

I think Legacy is extremely healthy right now. Remember, the format has been deliberately crafted so that it will be creature-oriented. Even with all the acceleration available, there are still good enough creatures to allow aggro and aggro-control to be very strong. The format is very diverse and very enjoyable right now, and I don't see any need for it to closely resemble Vintage (really, an impossible task).

[Buttons]

Admittedly, I don't play Legacy.

I'm just trying to throw things out there.  That does seem like a more diverse meta than what I expected.

However, the sheer number of Threshold/Goblin decks make any top 8 sided.

I.E., Any deck that beats Goblins and Threshold and NOTHING ELSE will top8 in this tourney.  That's still not being balanced.  I don't know how things like this pan out.

Also, that undefeated decklist up top looks fun as hell to play.