Proxies: Yet another re-evaluation of a touchy subject

[pyr0ma5ta]

I play Vintage because I can't afford Standard.

QFT

'greed, brotha.  Although, I must admit, I own playsets of all 4 of the released noodles and will probably get playsets of the new ones...but that's because of drafting, I swear!

If you do a "where are they now" on cards that used to be worth $20, say in Invasion block, we're looking at sub-$3 land.  A Fow is worth ~$20 and will only go up, regardless of whether or not they release it in foil FNM (would be ugly) or in new cardface in Coldsnap precons, etc.  WoTC's promise to never reprint ensures we don't lose.

On topic, however, I was the first responder, and I don't see any arguments for fewer than 10 proxies than "That's ugly" or "I have power, how come everyone else gets to play with sharpied plains?"  More than 15 is surely excessive, but I feel that 10-12 is very reasonable.

[the19inchgecko]

To me proxies are great for testing decks, or practicing.  I use proxies for in place of the real card 99% of the time and only use the real cards for the actual event.  I see that is ok, but playing a the event with the proxy cards is wrong.  I have yet to play in an event with a proxy.  I started playing Vintage as a total scrub with out drains, FOW, Welders, nothing.  The closest thing I had to a vintage card was Dark Rits in a shared fate deck, I got a lot crap from other players saying i could have proxied FOW at least, but it is not me, I would fell dirty if I did that.  Especially since there were guys there that were proud of their cards.  Now that I have some money cards I am proud of them.  I have two Italian drains, but they are mine and I am proud of them because I saved my money and earned them.  For those that just proxy up the cards they need the night before there is nothing to be proud about a plains with Black Lotus on it.  It would be like if I took a can of spray paint and painted Hummer on my truck and I took it out and expected it to perform the same as other Hummers.  It just won't happen.  As much as I would like to have a high end off road vehicle I have to drive with what I can afford and have.  So basically if you don't own power or if you don't own dark rits you should not be allowed to pretend you have them.  I would rather play again someone who busted their ass building a deck with the cards they own rather then play with a deck that have cards that everyone should pretend they own.  When I played with my shared fate deck yeah I got my ass handed to me most of the time, but I was able to win a few games, but I was playing my deck with my cards.  It gave me the drive to obtain better and more powerful cards to be able to play with the big dogs.  I am still far far from that level of play but now since I have some higher end cards I am getting closer to building the "optimal" build of current tier 1 decks.  In my case I know if I took my semi powered deck to an event I might and would probably still lose to an unpowered deck.  Money cards does not guarantee a win.  I am sure that my opinion will not change anyones mind I enjoy looking at both sides of this topic.  I would like to see more people get into vintage magic, but one does not need a full set of power to even consider playing.  I started out with what I had a rogue Type 2 deck with Dark Rits.  Now I am trying to build a budget Control slaver deck.  Thanks for listening to my rant.  Peace RJ

[banks]

As one of the youngest vintage players in my local area i believe that one of the main reasons to play type one is to see all the expensive cards on the tables and watching all kinds of broken plays that can be make using them. I would have to say that if all of the cool old cards were replace with proxies then it would take most of the fun out of the format. I have to say that ten proxies seems like enough because you don't need to be able to make all of the decks in the format, just one. One good deck, and if you have fun with that one deck and like the format you should  be forced to buy the proper cards for the other decks if you want to play them. Paying for proxies is an "OK" way of fixing things but the fact that younger players who don't have much money to begin with and paying they are playing more money to enter the vintage tournaments keeps them out. I would never enter a tournament in which i have to play more than every one else especially since i am  one the youngest and have the least amount of money. We all can see that without proxies our format would not be the same but magic is still a collectible card game and the collectibility is what gives it that ooh and ah factor and if it was not for this feature magic would lose at least one player, me. All i am trying to say is that we can't get out of hand with these proxies, it is a privilege to play this game and you should have to play for that privilege. One fourth of a deck being proxies seems like a lot to me remember i am one of the "cheap" players(meaning i use white border land  :shock:).
Thanks for the privilege of being able to express me ideas on this site.
Later Banks

[Jank Golem]

To me proxies are great for testing decks, or practicing. I use proxies for in place of the real card 99% of the time and only use the real cards for the actual event. I see that is ok, but playing a the event with the proxy cards is wrong. I have yet to play in an event with a proxy. I started playing Vintage as a total scrub with out drains, FOW, Welders, nothing. The closest thing I had to a vintage card was Dark Rits in a shared fate deck, I got a lot crap from other players saying i could have proxied FOW at least, but it is not me, I would fell dirty if I did that. Especially since there were guys there that were proud of their cards. Now that I have some money cards I am proud of them. I have two Italian drains, but they are mine and I am proud of them because I saved my money and earned them. For those that just proxy up the cards they need the night before there is nothing to be proud about a plains with Black Lotus on it. It would be like if I took a can of spray paint and painted Hummer on my truck and I took it out and expected it to perform the same as other Hummers. It just won't happen. As much as I would like to have a high end off road vehicle I have to drive with what I can afford and have. So basically if you don't own power or if you don't own dark rits you should not be allowed to pretend you have them. I would rather play again someone who busted their ass building a deck with the cards they own rather then play with a deck that have cards that everyone should pretend they own. When I played with my shared fate deck yeah I got my ass handed to me most of the time, but I was able to win a few games, but I was playing my deck with my cards. It gave me the drive to obtain better and more powerful cards to be able to play with the big dogs. I am still far far from that level of play but now since I have some higher end cards I am getting closer to building the "optimal" build of current tier 1 decks. In my case I know if I took my semi powered deck to an event I might and would probably still lose to an unpowered deck. Money cards does not guarantee a win. I am sure that my opinion will not change anyones mind I enjoy looking at both sides of this topic. I would like to see more people get into vintage magic, but one does not need a full set of power to even consider playing. I started out with what I had a rogue Type 2 deck with Dark Rits. Now I am trying to build a budget Control slaver deck. Thanks for listening to my rant. Peace RJ

Magic is about the game, not the cards. This is exactly the kind of problem proxies are supposed to solve. The point of proxies is to make vintage more about the game and less about the cards.

[the19inchgecko]

Magic is about the game, not the cards. This is exactly the kind of problem proxies are supposed to solve. The point of proxies is to make vintage more about the game and less about the cards.

Without the cards you have no game.  The more I read this thread and think about it, especially what jank said about paying more for proxies, I might be ok with a scenario like $15 entry fee and $2-$3 for each proxy, this would increase prize support majorly to allow these proxy players to win a piece of power or a mana drain.  This way players may be able to play in a vintage event and possibly get a $200+ card for $40. It also gets smaller stores to give better prize support which would get more players to come out.  Even if they give 8-16th places 3 boosters of whatever is current.  I am sure there are a lot of flaws with this scenario that I just gave, but I think if I enter an event with no proxies then I should pay less then the guy that pays the same as me for 10 free proxies.  It took me 5 months to one of my moxes.  Finding stores and people willing to give it up and then trying to out trade/bid the person for it.  I like most players do not have unlimited funds so if some guy that has a career is competing with me,  a poor college student, to out trade or bid for a mox he may have an extra $50 to put down to get a that mox from me.  Lucky me I found a guy also in trade that sympathized a little for me and I gave him some extra cards that I promised to pay back in a month. 

moral of the story make pay more to use proxies, and I am not talking about $1 for each proxy over 10.  more like no freebies.

[UR]

I apologize in advance for the rant-ish piece of text that is to follow… I’m sleep deprived (not to mention stark raving mad  ) and it is Monday morning…

I've read several times now that those of us who are against raising the proxy limit are an elitist bunch who are keeping the unpowered man down. Now, don’t get me wrong… I’m all for the Power to the people thing…

But do these proxies give you a better chance at winning? Yes, because Ancestral Recall is that good. But I think you that you’ll give yourself an even better chance by playing well and being familiar with your deck. I’m saying this because I’ve performed equally well/bad with proxies than I have performed without them (this was before I got my own set of power). The reason for this was usually that I wasn’t familiar with the subtle little plays you can make with the P9. Hell, I’m still able to screw up a perfectly broken hand…

Yes, most decks run more than 10 cards that are worth $100+. But I don’t think that is any reason to raise the proxy-limit beyond the current limits. Think about your opponents… think about your deck… what does it need to beat them? Every deck has a weakness, exploit it… don’t scream for the proxy-limit to be raised so you can just be lazy and copy it… Do the work. I remember a green land-destruction deck winning a 60 person event in the Netherlands and it only ran Mox Emerald and a Black Lotus for power. A perfect example of somebody doing the work and playing well.

For many people however, Vintage is the place where they can play with all the cards from their collection. Just go to the ‘Vintage Improvement Forum’ or the forums at Wizards.com to see what people think Vintage really is… a Sol Ring and a Fastbond restrict these decks to Vintage. They will get ‘owned’ if they take it to a fully powered non-proxy event. And yet they show up every time… not because these people expect to win the Lotus, they know it is out of reach, but they want to have a good time.

People will play their deck because it is something they have created. They fully expect to lose to powered Stax, but they intend to give it a run for it’s money and will never stop laughing if they manage to beat it. At the end of the day, that is what they will remember the most… they beat the fully powered Vintage die-hard with his ‘pimped out’ $5.000,- deck with a Loxodon Hierarch because his deck couldn’t find an answer to a solid and the +4 lives.

Most people who enjoy competitive magic don’t play Vintage. The investment/benefit ratio isn’t really worth it and all the other ‘serious’ people are playing extended at the moment. So if you want exciting games with equal opportunity for all… go play extended! I’m not kidding… go play extended, it is loads of fun and it has a pretty healthy metagame right now.

If you are going to play Vintage I think you need to realize that the format isn’t made to handle competitive people. This is the format where you get to play every card in your collection and try your wacky ideas… not to the people on this site, but there are enough of them out there.

I feel it is important to understand that not everybody wants the same. The people screaming for more proxies so that the environment can be ‘healthier’ are playing the wrong format imo.

Smennen has stated that he has never had anybody abuse the system for his unlimited proxy tournaments thus far. Well, I guarantee you that if you were to hold an unlimited proxy tournament over here, there will be people playing with 59 proxies and a basic Island (which they may also proxy). Why risk getting your power stolen/damaged if you can just play with a basic plains instead?
 
If Wizards ever tries something like this in other formats, I will sell all my cards in an instant and go to my local cardshop to buy every single basic land they have… foil, because I like having a shiney deck.

[Buttons]

IIf Wizards ever tries something like this in other formats, I will sell all my cards in an instant and go to my local cardshop to buy every single basic land they have… foil, because I like having a shiney deck.

Actually, Wizards was going to do that until they realized that the influxed surge for demand of basic lands would make approximately every basic land $20, and plains $30 (because they're easier to use), and every black lotus around 50.

And the price on FOIL basic land?  Oh man.  It would make you stagger.

So currently, Wizards is toying around with something they've codenamed:  "Operation Rainforest for Cardboard."

[mr_rogers]

For many people however, Vintage is the place where they can play with all the cards from their collection. Just go to the ‘Vintage Improvement Forum’ or the forums at Wizards.com to see what people think Vintage really is… a Sol Ring and a Fastbond restrict these decks to Vintage. They will get ‘owned’ if they take it to a fully powered non-proxy event. And yet they show up every time… not because these people expect to win the Lotus, they know it is out of reach, but they want to have a good time.

People will play their deck because it is something they have created. They fully expect to lose to powered Stax, but they intend to give it a run for it’s money and will never stop laughing if they manage to beat it. At the end of the day, that is what they will remember the most… they beat the fully powered Vintage die-hard with his ‘pimped out’ $5.000,- deck with a Loxodon Hierarch because his deck couldn’t find an answer to a solid and the +4 lives.

I will almost guarantee that people are not thinking "gee I'll take my casual Sliver deck to a SCGP9 tourny, pay $30 and lose."  I go to big tournaments to play the game and have a chance at winning something. I myself or anyone I know or would even ask would go pay $20+, gas money and anyother expenses for no chance to win against the best decks.  Proxies give you that chance to win the prize.  I've seen everyone from Europe say they do fine without proxies but I have yet to see an unpowered deck in the T8 of thier tournaments.  Iftheirhaving the power cards doesn't affect your chances how come I'm not seeing unpowered madness or even R/g beats making T8's?  For the people that have all the expensive cards or are able to borrow them congratulations.  I myself once owned all the power and a few sets of drains, but sold all that when I thought I was getting out of Magic.  Since then I have been slowly trying to buy back those cards, but prices are insane on them right now.  I like that I can proxy almost anything with 10 proxies(which I feel is the right number).  If people want touenaments like the SCG series to stop then convince them not to allow proxies.  I guarantee I would never travel out of town to one again.  I am definately not willing to spend $30 to lose, when I can spend $5 at my local store and win credit to use towards power.

[UR]

I completely agree with you that it is different for SGC P9 tournaments. But that has to do with the investment/return ratio. If you can win a Lotus+twister the return becomes interesting for competative players.

I've seen everyone from Europe say they do fine without proxies but I have yet to see an unpowered deck in the T8 of thier tournaments.

Just as an example, here is a list that made the semi-finals in a 39 player Vintage tourney in Austria earlier this year... last year... eh... 2005 allright? Count the number of Moxen in there...

(Budget decklist removed) - Dante

This is a discussion about the number of proxies that should be allowed, not posting of decklists or discussion of the viability of budget decks.  In the future, please keep on the discussion at hand. -JD

[mr_rogers]

Well I don't consider 39 people to be a big tourny.  I would like to know how many fully powered decks were there and what the prize was?  I said in my previous post proxies are good for big tournaments where everyone is trying to play the best deck they can.  I would play an unpowered deck at my local T1 because I'm only spending $5 to maybe win something.  I would not pay money to go to Waterbury, if it suddenly didn't allow proxies, to have no chance against the fully powered players.  Just to prove how much power helps, there was this guy that used to come to local T1's at the store I play at.  He was aweful at playing his deck yet he still won pretty much every week because he had full power and could just go broken at anytime.  So for anyone thinking that if you're good enough at the game you can win without power feel free to prove that and play an unpowered deck at the next Waterbury or SCG.  If you're so good and power does not affect anything then you should make T8 no problem. 

[jcb193]

Why not make the admission price 50% or 30% of the full price for non P9 decks.  This would attract more casual players, that might have a chance, and i'm sure most vintage players wouldn't mind the inherent advantage of playing against non-powered opponents. 

[Eddie]

I've seen everyone from Europe say they do fine without proxies but I have yet to see an unpowered deck in the T8 of thier tournaments.  Iftheirhaving the power cards doesn't affect your chances how come I'm not seeing unpowered madness or even R/g beats making T8's?

Most people without the power do play for fun I think. Why would you play Shahrazad.crap otherwise? "Doing fine without proxies" can also implicate that we are fine with buying power if we do want to make a shot at big tournaments. There are 0 tournaments in Europe (that I know) where you have to pay $20 or more to play anyway, so your point is moot. (Well, Italy had the doomsday that was $20 to play, and there where 366 players. So apparently people do not have this problem and play anyway if you provide a nice prize support for them).

[UR]

I remember an unpowered deck going 6-2 at the Dutch Open Vintage. So it barely missed out on the T8, does that count? That was a 188 player event btw.

This doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.  Please stay on topic. Thanks. -JD

[Komatteru]

Why not make the admission price 50% or 30% of the full price for non P9 decks.  This would attract more casual players, that might have a chance, and i'm sure most vintage players wouldn't mind the inherent advantage of playing against non-powered opponents. 

I mind it.  I was at some very small tournament once that was no proxy (unsanctioned, but no proxies, whatever).  Anyway, I was playing DeathLong and I stomped the hell out of some elf deck in round 3 or something.  After it, he asked me "How does it feel to beat up on a Type 2 deck?" in a decently upset tone.  I should have said to him "why did you bring a T2 deck to a Vintage event?" 

It's not remotely interesting to play against terrible decks that have no shot of winning.  I could have stayed home and goldfished my deck and gotten the same satisfaction.

[mr_rogers]

I've seen everyone from Europe say they do fine without proxies but I have yet to see an unpowered deck in the T8 of thier tournaments. Iftheirhaving the power cards doesn't affect your chances how come I'm not seeing unpowered madness or even R/g beats making T8's?

Most people without the power do play for fun I think. Why would you play Shahrazad.crap otherwise? "Doing fine without proxies" can also implicate that we are fine with buying power if we do want to make a shot at big tournaments. There are 0 tournaments in Europe (that I know) where you have to pay $20 or more to play anyway, so your point is moot. (Well, Italy had the doomsday that was $20 to play, and there where 366 players. So apparently people do not have this problem and play anyway if you provide a nice prize support for them).

If you provide a nice prize structure to draw in the non-powered decks then I see no problem with not allowing proxies.  In America there is no big event set up like that though.  I understand players playing for fun in big tournaments but why travel to another state/country to have no chance at making top 8? I love the game of Magic and will always play for fun first, winning second, but I am not dumb enough to go to GenCon with FCG and hope to do well.  I find it fun to play against decks that challenge me, not non-powered elf.dec.

[jcb193]

Both of the previous comments say about the same thing, but i also think people need to be realistic.  Nobody enters vintage for the first time with a fully powered, tier 1 deck.  It is a gradual process, that eventually leads to a full deck or the desire to have a full deck.  Forcing people to have $2000 or $400 + 10 proxies so that you can play tier 1 players all day might be a shade unrealistic. 

[Harkius]

As I see it, there are two logical arguments here.

First, power cards are expensive, and they are essential. This is not the paradox that many people seem to think that it is. Power cards are expensive because they are essential. As such, they are in high demand. If you don't own power cards, then you have two choices: A) play unpowered decks or B) go buy power cards. Magic is a hobby. I hate to sound really snobby, since I do own power cards, but that is simply the way that it is. You get out of this game what you put in. I am not saying that we should eradicate the proxy policy; far from it. I am a big fan of anything that brings in more players, and I think that wiping out proxies would lower tournament participation. Granted, the tournaments would look prettier, but <shrug>.

Second, the current proxy policy makes perfect sense. There are, as far as I can see, very, very few decks that you cannot build with ten proxies and a rather minimal investment. Even if there are a few, see argument one. This is a hobby. You do not need to build Stax to survive. You do not need to play Stax to feed your children/yourself. You do not need to play Control-Slaver for any of your fundamental needs. Entertainment, no matter how much Americans and Western Europeans spend on it and clamor for it, is not a fundamental need. Until that point, you have no right to kvitch, even if SCG drops proxies to zero, or ups them to 60. It is a corporate policy, not a public one. Granted, they have a vested interest in keeping the population happy. But, as anyone will notice right away by looking at the economics of it, Magic is a trickle-down economy. Yeah, power cards are expensive. Yes, SCG probably makes some good cash on them, as do the dealers at Waterbury. Would Magic survive without a Type I market? Would these dealers? You'd better believe it. Type II and Extended are cash cows. Despite all the complaints about the cost of Magic cards, we are the poor white trash of Magic players. We are the lower class that exists via subsistence living, beneath the poverty line, waiting for crumbs to fall from the tables of the Type II and Extended fatcats, so that we may pick up a dash or two to feed ourselves and our families. We are not causing the secondary market. Type I hasn't been the cause of a secondary market since Wizards announced that the PT would be Limited and Type II. Face it, we are not the target market. Enjoy the fact that we still get tournaments. Enjoy the way that SCG makes Vintage thrive. We've had two great years (consistently, no less), and the environment is still pretty healthy.

So, if SCG lets us play with ten proxies, and you only want to use seven, then use seven. If they up the count to 15, don't gripe. The fact of the matter is that SCG does what they do because it brings them a profit. And profits, children, are the way the world goes round. Socialism is a fine idea, in practice. However, socialism brings with it the downfall of many commercial prospects, including Magic. You don't have the right to build proxy decks. You have that privilege so long as the company gives it to you.

Can we kill this topic now, please? We have beaten the dead horse to doggy chow. Some people want ten, some people want twelve, some people want sixty, some people want none. What you want only matters so long as you are able to force SCG to change their policy. Until then, your desires don't really count for too much, until you start running your own Type I tournaments.

Cheers,

Harkius

[Buttons]

It's not remotely interesting to play against terrible decks that have no shot of winning.  I could have stayed home and goldfished my deck and gotten the same satisfaction.

This is so true.  Today, on MWS, I was playing Grubastax against new MUD. 

(40 lines deleted).  We don't need your whole game log when your point can/should be summarized like you did below.  -Dante

One of the funnest most fun games of magic I've ever played in my life.  That kind of stuff can't happen if he's using ancient tomb for his moxes.

[Upinthe]

I think ten proxies is enough, but maybe some tournaments could offer free proxies as prizes for use in the next tournament much like byes are sometimes given. I don't know, it's just a thought...

I have power and drains myself, and I want to get back into tournaments, but I need at least ten proxies as I am unwilling to buy stuff like Tolarian Academy right now when that money can go toward the new duals in Standard.

[Buttons]

...I am unwilling to buy stuff like Tolarian Academy right now when that money can go toward the new duals in Standard.

When I saw the announcement of Temple Garden on wizards.com, I knew that I was going to be out of Type 2 for the next two years

One is the post above, the other is your signature.

What is up with your mixed signals, dude?   :lol:   

First of all, this should have been a PM, as it has nothing to do with the discussion.  Second of all, if you read carefully, you'll see that the quote from the signature is attributed to me.  I believe I said it earlier in the thread actually.  Don't clutter this thread further. -JD

[Dante]

Please stay on topic.  For those of you who can't find the first page, let me resummarize the topics:

• Is 10 proxies enough these days?  If not, how many do we go to?  12? 13? 15?
• 1) The "My format" vs. "Your format" mentality
• 2) The cost of all the format staples is down/stabilized.
• 3) Attendance is down.  Why?
• 4) There has to be a point where the number of proxies starts to infringe on the purpose of owning cards.

What should be kept out?

• decklists
• game logs
• anecdotes of "I remember when a pre-con deck top 8'd in a 4200 person Vintage tournament in <insert city here>".  Every now and then, statistical anomalies occur.  Look at patterns.
• other random, off-topic things

Please keep on topic so this thread doesn't become a typical RG Beatz thread (where it ends up with 5 pages of good discussion scattered over 15 pages of crap). 

Dante
[/b][/color]

[Eandori]

Almost none of the magic community in the Portland Oregon area (which is very big BTW) plays Vintage.  because lots of the bigger stores either don't allow proxies, or don't hold tournaments and sell vintage cards enough to support the format.

So for us... Proxies are the only things that give "hope" to the format starting.  All the new players shy away from Vintage tournaments because they know #1.  They don't own power and will probably lose, and #2. they don't know the format, so they will probably lose.

yes yes, I know.  They should go for the experience.  They should see what it's all about.  What can I say, I agree.   But fact is, they don't show up unless they think they have a chance to win.  Ya know what I personally do?!?  I show up to my local 0-proxy tournament with a fully stocked Gifts Slaver deck.  I win pretty much every match up, but I concede EVERY game where the person on the other side has no power.  So I pretty much always finish dead last, unless somebody else shows up with power and they lose worse.  It's even DCI events, so my rating is in the toilet.  BUT I DON'T CARE!  I play this game because I love Vintage, and I really want the local scene to take off.

Proxies are what will make that happen.  After it takes off, then we can re-discuss.

[cherub_daemon]

Proxies also hurt inginuity as well, and sometimes rescourcfulness + being forced to experiment with odd card choices lead to new ideas.

I've seen a couple variations on this, but none that really expanded on it.

First, is it possible that too many proxies hurts ingenuity? If I'm a dedicated, competitive T2 player (I'm not...hypothetically) and I want to try Vintage, and you allow me unlimited proxies, what am I probably going to try, if I want to do well? Probably the biggest pile of broken that I can netdeck. But had I been forced to really woodshed and make something I could get my hands on, and showed up with some semi-jank, home-brew Mono-Black Discard Carpet Bomb (or something), even if I lose every game, if I make one or two interesting, and more importantly unique, plays vs. LongStaxxyMcBrokenPile, the Vintage community has an opportunity to gain something.

To quote an obvious example, Fish started out as a pure budget deck, and gains some things from being lightly powered. I don't think anyone here would say that the creation of Fish was a bad day for Vintage--the question is, would it have come into existance in a 60 proxy environment? (Arguments are fun, and I'm admittedly trying to start one. I'll say bad things about your mother, if that's what it takes.)

Second, does increasing the number of proxies "hurt" (ie narrow) the metagame? If noone's playing budget aggro, then none of the big decks will try to tune themselves to beat it. Then you have decks like Keeper falling by the wayside because their whole raison d'etre was that they could hang with the big boys, and not randomly lose to Erniegeddon. Admittedly, GRUba probably won't lose to Elf.dec whatever way it's tuned, but it's sure not making its life easier if it was running Null Rod and Wasteland maindeck, and now has a bunch of dead draws littering it.

So how many would I like to see? (Sigh...it's all about the number...I'll tell you if you promise to respect me in the morning...)

Five.

Justification: It lets you play a budget deck with a little bit of power and near power (Workshop, Drain...), but nothing really power-intensive. This way, you can "sweeten" a fundamentally decent idea, but you can't just Sharpie up Uba.

Let the record show that I own no power, nor any pretender to the throne (Drain, Bazaar, etc.)

[the19inchgecko]

So how many would I like to see? (Sigh...it's all about the number...I'll tell you if you promise to respect me in the morning...)

Five.

Justification: It lets you play a budget deck with a little bit of power and near power (Workshop, Drain...), but nothing really power-intensive. This way, you can "sweeten" a fundamentally decent idea, but you can't just Sharpie up Uba.

Let the record show that I own no power, nor any pretender to the throne (Drain, Bazaar, etc.)

I agree with you 100%.  When I owned no power and actually got A. Recall and Time Walk mixed up I played with budget decks and I beat a few tier one decks (only because the players just netdecked and didn't know how to use the deck) but I would use what I have.  Everyone starts out that way, or at least should start out that way.  Players that started during beta had to buy their moxes, players such as myself that started during mirrodin still have to buy moxes.  Granted the price has increased over years but that is the price one must pay in order to play.  If you don't want to buy your cards then you should play.   Peace RJ

[Jank Golem]

There is no exact cover all answer for the proxy number it depends on what kind of venue you are at.

For instance my local metagame is a unlimited proxy, the reason is that we found that it a least gives people with a low budget a chance. We also found that the metagame was becoming stagnate with 10 proxies, because people did not want to shell out more money for different decks.

Unlimited proxies will not work everywhere. To prevent card values from crashing we need to have some tournaments with 10 proxies + 1$ for each extra proxy. The 10 plus 1 configuration allows people to play any deck they want but still give people an incentive to buy cards.

The solution is to have many different proxy policies. This prevents stagnate metagames, promotes vintage, prevents card prices from crashing and allows vintage to live on.

[Klep]

To quote an obvious example, Fish started out as a pure budget deck, and gains some things from being lightly powered. I don't think anyone here would say that the creation of Fish was a bad day for Vintage--the question is, would it have come into existance in a 60 proxy environment? (Arguments are fun, and I'm admittedly trying to start one. I'll say bad things about your mother, if that's what it takes.)

This is actually inaccurate.  Fish was originally created as a joke by a fully powered player.  He just then happened to note that it beat the pants off Keeper.  The deck eventually evolved into U/R Fish, at which point people started paying serious attention to it.  It was not conceived as a budget deck, it merely ended up being a deck that required little power.  I have little doubt that even in an unlimited proxy environment it would have evolved in some fashion to fill its slot in the metagame.

Five.

Justification: It lets you play a budget deck with a little bit of power and near power (Workshop, Drain...), but nothing really power-intensive. This way, you can "sweeten" a fundamentally decent idea, but you can't just Sharpie up Uba.

The problem is that most budget decks are terrible.  I don't want to see a metagame where almost everyone is playing Fish because that's the only decent deck they can afford to build.  The moniker 'Power 9' was not granted lightly; those cards really are that powerful and critical to success in this format.  If you don't allow people access to those cards, you end up returning to the days where the same people won every tournament because they could just outbroken those unfortunate enough to not be able to afford to drop more than a grand on their hobby.  That is not healthy for the format, and that is why we need more than 5 proxies.

[the19inchgecko]

The problem is that most budget decks are terrible.  I don't want to see a metagame where almost everyone is playing Fish because that's the only decent deck they can afford to build.  The moniker 'Power 9' was not granted lightly; those cards really are that powerful and critical to success in this format.  If you don't allow people access to those cards, you end up returning to the days where the same people won every tournament because they could just outbroken those unfortunate enough to not be able to afford to drop more than a grand on their hobby.  That is not healthy for the format, and that is why we need more than 5 proxies.

I would rather see the same people win day after day.  I think we should let people think and build their own decks to create diversity in the meta.  Proxies would be ok if and only if you are testing your deck against a potential deck you might see at an event.

[Klep]

I would rather see the same people win day after day.  I think we should let people think and build their own decks to create diversity in the meta.  Proxies would be ok if and only if you are testing your deck against a potential deck you might see at an event.

You would rather see a tournament be a test of the size of one's bank account rather than a test of one's skill at Magic?  Because that is what happens when you overly restrict the number of proxies as you wish to do.  I, for one, would like to see skill and luck be the only two factors in play in such a competition.

[the19inchgecko]

You would rather see a tournament be a test of the size of one's bank account rather than a test of one's skill at Magic?  Because that is what happens when you overly restrict the number of proxies as you wish to do.  I, for one, would like to see skill and luck be the only two factors in play in such a competition.

Yes I would.  I see a lot of people go 0-5 with a fully powered deck.  I would rather people save up and work for their cards rather then just write on a land card what they want.  I worked hard for what I have, and I don't have much but what I do have I worked hard for.  Also this might be a little off topic. But I am going to go for it anyways, Where did proxies originate from, and who was tetheirst to use them in totourneys  Thanks RJ

[Slack]

I would rather see the same people win day after day. I think we should let people think and build their own decks to create diversity in the meta. Proxies would be ok if and only if you are testing your deck against a potential deck you might see at an event.

This is a game after all.  People like to have a chance at winning.  If the same 2-3 people win every tournament week after week eventually someone is going to say to themselves, "Why am I wasting my money and time?  Clearly in this limited proxy metagame my meticulously engineered deck is going to keep getting stomped because the opposition keeps drawing the broken a not insignificant percentage of the time and has the gas to back it up."

I argue that there is nothing preventing people from thinking for themselves.  More proxies don't make people stupid or inherently apathetic.

There can be innovation with a high number of proxies.  The people that would innovate and come up with new ideas are going to be working at it in their head whether you give them proxies or not.  The point is certain highly expensive cards make nearly every deck better (yea yea... doomsday two moxen, [other deck] can't take card disadvantage of one shot lotus mana etc.).  So, in effect restricting proxies could make the innovator's job harder as they don't have all the tools that might be nessecary to make it truly competitive.

Those who would build their own decks, will.  Diversity is not something you can force on the metagame through less proxies.

One thing that I think proxies add to the format is an easy way to gain an understanding of the format.  All the reading in the world can't substitute for at least some "field experience" if you will.  I believe that an understanding of the format is a basic requirement for making a deck that will diversify the metagame.  After all, how can you create a metagame deck without knowing the metagame.  Decks that stomp the field don't pop out of thin air.