U/R Fish, a dying breed?

[[supa_t(im)]]

All cards you mention, with the exeption of Gorilla Shaman, are available for U/W and U/G as well. Unless you are facing Goblin Welders all day long I can't see a reason to play U/R.

They all can run those cards, but they don't.  This is because they have other ways of disrupting.  Everyone seems to be looking at U/W and U/R and saying "these two should do the exact same thing."  And that simply isn't the right way of looking at it.  Does SSB and Control Slaver win the same way?  Both decks run welder.  Both decks run gifts.  That doesn't make them have the same strategy.

I'm not saying that U/R Fish is going to own the metagame, otherwise I would have posted my own topic in the Vintage Open forum.  This is the Improvement Forum, hence trying to improve a rogue deck.  I'm saying that U/R Fish can still be a contender, not that it is better than U/W.  Control Slaver is obviously still a contender even though people thought it was dead for awhile.

Yes, I would play U/R if all I was seeing was Welders.  Or if all I was seeing was U/W Fish.

My analysis of U/R vs U/W:

U/R Fish has better matchup in the mirror. Fire/Ice, Bouncer, Lavamancer, REB all blow up/remove fishy's critters. So, U/R's strength is the mirror.

But that's not all. U/R has many more ways to remove Welder, which is still a defining card of the format. Mox monkey is a threat that all gifts decks fear. Removing their artifact acceleration is key.

Personally, I hate the chalice + vial setup. It takes up too many slots, and gives you a potential for a ton of dead cards. Null rod stops so many more things than chalice, and with red you don't have to worry about welder as much anyway. I do think that vial has a spot in some Fish decks, but not this one (T8 Chicago Fish ran it, T8 Richmond Fish ran null rod). Besides, if you use vial in your deck, my null rod shuts if off.

White does have some potent disruption in the form of mage, STP, kataki, and believer. Probably better than U/R. What? Did I just say U/W has better disruption than U/R in a thread about U/R?? Yes, this is because U/R disrupts in a different way, or at least that is what I'm trying to do with my build (I keep stressing this).

White disrupts manabases with wastelands, chalice/null rod, and kataki (based on top8 U/W Fish decks from last 3 SCG events). A decent disruption no doubt. Red disrupts the mana base with wastelands, null rod, gorilla shaman, stifle, and to a degree annul. Where U/W may spread disruption over a couple of fields (mage, believer, strips, etc.) U/R concentrates a lot on the manabase (this is a strategy I like using because of my experience with R/G Tempo).

Stifle is a huge disruption piece that allows you to do neat tricks with the deck. Stifle fetchland, stifle wasteland, stifle javelineers, stifle welder, stifle oath, stifle belcher, stifle voidmage, stifle factory, stifle tendrils, stifle...

White can have better disruption against Oath, but U/G can be just as effective with a little ingenuity. STP, Mage, and Seal all help the Oath matchup. Well, red has annul, and waterfront bouncer as two direct ways to stop Oath. However, with some sneaky tactics, it has stifle (god I love that card), and fire/ice (tap the fatties when the come out). Now annul and bouncer are the more permanent solutions, the stifle and fire/ice act more like stall tactics. However, when you play with things that attack, a time walk may be all you need to win the game. Its no autowin (its not for U/W either), but the deck can still beat it, even without a god hand.

White offers kataki and seal against Stax, which are both very good. U/R has annul and gorilla shaman. Now at this point I will say that I think U/W is more brainless when it comes to how to play the deck. U/R offers much more choices and different situations in order to win. U/R can still beat Stax though. It has a decent amount of permanents that cost 1, so sphere doesn't hurt us too bad. Shaman + strips can cut off their early mana sources, giving you more time. Annul can stop some of their more potent prison pieces, and stifle (if I'm not mistaken) can even stop the triggered ability of some of their prison pieces. They also won't be able to keep welder on the table too long with the removal the deck packs (which can be similar to U/W). Null rod also shuts down their mana sources, and possibly karn if he is run.

Against gifts, white gives true believer, which is awesome. They can also attack the manabase with strips, chalice, and to a degree kataki. U/R has strips, null rod, mox monkey, and stifle (!!). Along with annul the deck can beat gifts.

What have I learned? U/R good in fish mirror. U/R disrupts differently than U/W, more focused on mana denial. Stifle = good.

Oath - hard for oath to combat waterfront bouncer if resolved. Stifle, annul, and mana denial all help. Instead of concentrating on stopping the combo (U/W) concentrate on stalling the deck.

Stax - kataki may push this in favor of U/W, but U/R still has annul, mana denial, and stifle (OMG!!). Typical arti-hate in the SB, and red allows you to run RnR if needed. With enough mana, even shaman can become a problem for Stax (although I suppose sorta rare).

Gifts - so much mana denial makes gifts cry. Colossus wins can be foiled by bouncer or fire/ice. Storm wins can be foiled by stifle, annul (to a degree), and since this win costs so friggin much, mana denial. Belcher win is stopped by null rod, stifle, and annul if they actually hardcast it. Gifts likes its mana, and without it, it doesn't do much.

Alright, against Storm combo the deck has a couple of nifty tools. Null rod obviously hurts them (yes, storm combo can still win under a rod, but they need quite a few rituals). Mana denial tends to hurt combo a bit, and that is what this deck likes to do. With 3 stifles in the deck, even after a draw7 there are chances that you can get a stifle off into their tendrils. Typical SB stuff with arcane lab as well. Maybe a little different than U/W, which just tries to get mage out naming tendrils or believer, U/R relies more on passive disruption along with stifle (!!).

All the decks can run many of the same cards, but they would use them in different ways, or perhaps some cards run in some decks mean other cards aren't required.

So, since that was so long winded (hopefully not incredibly hard to read), I hope I answered your question. U/W could be a better deck, but Fish decks tend to be metagame decks anyway, and no one should discount the red splash. I think U/R is harder to play correctly. They also have slightly different strategies in terms of how they disrupt the opponent.


@Bruenor
Sure, call me Tim, it is my name.

The tournament was too small and scrubby to get any solid results.  To illustrate, I played mono black Dragon, Life.dec (it was more of a Legacy deck), Sligh, and Fluctuator.  Sligh beat me round due to double fireblast + pop + pyroblast game 2, and me being mana screwed game 3, go figure.  Also, I am not powered, and this was 0 proxy, so the deck wasn't to its full potential.

I did not test CoWs, although I really can't see how they would have helped in any of my games.  I also did not have any trouble getting mancer fuel.  He won me the game (along with stifle) against Life.

[Imsomniac101]

I am working on a UGR threshold deck that is a cross over between UR Fish and Birdshit. If anyone is interested, PM me and we can do some testing over MWS or appr.

 Once the deck is up to a sastifactory level, I will post it here or in the open forum for further development. I decided to add Red to the deck instead of White because of the already noted stronger ability to attack manabases. It's been working quite well, it just needs a bit more tuning and possibly more tech.

[nataz]

I think if you are going to run UR fish right now, there are a couple of cards you need to be looking at for the MD/SB

1. Mox Monkey, derp.

2. Null Rod - Rebuild > Chalice right now, and there are a lot of monkeys running around in decks that chalice for 0 is really good against it. CS, Stax, and Gifts all are running either shaman, or in some cases EE to deal with chalice. Many decks are also packing rebuild, which is important when you are on the draw, and your opponent already has a mox down. This means one more land drop and the are in the free and clear for rebuild -> storm -> win. Null rod will force the rebuild to be played off three lands, which = 1 extra turn.

3. Stormscape Apprentice - a cheaper tapper for Oath and DSC. w/o vial it is less important to cram the 2cc slot, this gives you another turn 1 play. Also can tap the turn it comes into play, which makes it 2 full turns faster then bouncer. 

edit* I so lose, its a W activation cost. That would explain why I never saw it earlier. Frown, reading cards FTW. I was kind of excited about UR fish for a moment, and this card was a big part of it. Too bad I was misreading the card, its NOT a 1/1 for U, that can tap for U. ugh.

4. viashino heretic or goblin vandle are both viable non-spell ways to deal with stax. Take a look at TMWA, a R/w based aggro deck that manages to use vandel to great effect.

5. Anyone remember what the draw engine actualy was in fish? If you answered standstill, BAD PUPPY! -5 points. Correct answer was curiosity, or as many players called it, ancestral over 3 turns. This worked because you had 8 MD flying critters, 4 of which allowed you to play the critter, and then untap and play the enchantment, for a turn 3 draw. The same can be done with grim, but is conditional with the number of cards in GY. 

This is at least as fast as a ninja, AND has built in evasion. If you change the number of Clouds and/or the number of curiosity's in the deck, you better find a new draw engine. BS doesn't count, it really can't draw you anything, it just kinda digs 3 crap (I mean cards) deep. What exactly are you looking for, tinker, will, drain? What you get is grim, null rod, and shaman. woot.

If you cut the original engine, you need to replace the draw with something other then ninja (slow and blockable)/BS (not actual draw).

6. Theif is a clock vs.

- Oath has 2 creatures 
- Gifts has 2 win conditions

Is not a clock vs.

- stax, HA, jokes on theif.
- Dargon, uhh, good luck
- CS 2 robots + 2 slavers

still, I'd play it for the following reasons.

However, you should note that UR fish always had a decent match-up vs slaver on the str. of rod/mana denial alone. It wasn't until CS started packing SB darts and OLD MEN that it got hard. No darts and old men, give you a decent shot at CS, theif of no theif.

Stax, yay for SB options.

Dragon is possibly the most vunerable creature ever. You should be playing bounce MD, so you should stand a chance. Downside, they should be playing a darkblast, you lose.

which brings me to darkblast. I think this is one of the worst possible cards that you can possibly see. Welcome to the death of your entire creature base. If you think it might be there, cutting off black becomes top priority. Theif lets you know what you are up against, and if you see it, you may want to nab it.

7. Lotus, Ruby, Sapphire, TW, Ancestral FTW. Don't argue, and stop bitching about welders and your lotus/null rod. Really, its okay.

[Imsomniac101]

Let me quote some of the points you made and tell you why you are WRONG.

5. Anyone remember what the draw engine actualy was in fish? If you answered standstill, BAD PUPPY! -5 points. Correct answer was curiosity, or as many players called it, ancestral over 3 turns. This worked because you had 8 MD flying critters, 4 of which allowed you to play the critter, and then untap and play the enchantment, for a turn 3 draw. The same can be done with grim, but is conditional with the number of cards in GY.

interesting statements bolded. Many people have already explained why Cloud of Faeries is a subpar card, and I'll say it again, Faerie is a wasted card slot as it is only a vanilla 1/1 for 0 on Turn 2 (assuming that your opponent doesnt counter it).
Curiosity is bad as you said, it is slow. Ninja is bad for the same reason, although not as bad because of 2nd reason. Curiosity most often equals card disadvantage. Here is a common scenario, you play Cloud of Faeries, untap, play curiosity targetting Faerie. Your opponent plays Stp (or some other removal for that matter, doesnt matter) you lose two cards for one. This gets even worse when the creature being removed is not Faerie, then you lose tempo as well.

This is at least as fast as a ninja, AND has built in evasion. If you change the number of Clouds and/or the number of curiosity's in the deck, you better find a new draw engine. BS doesn't count, it really can't draw you anything, it just kinda digs 3 crap (I mean cards) deep. What exactly are you looking for, tinker, will, drain? What you get is grim, null rod, and shaman. woot.

Brainstorm is a better card than Curiosity is because it digs for 3 cards NOW. Not in 3 turns. Traditional UR fish can't use brainstorm properly. Look at Birdshit, now that is how brainstorm should be abused, by proper use of card slots.

6. Theif is a clock vs.

- Oath has 2 creatures 
- Gifts has 2 win conditions

Is not a clock vs.

- stax, HA, jokes on theif.
- Dargon, uhh, good luck
- CS 2 robots + 2 slavers

still, I'd play it for the following reasons.

However, you should note that UR fish always had a decent match-up vs slaver on the str. of rod/mana denial alone. It wasn't until CS started packing SB darts and OLD MEN that it got hard. No darts and old men, give you a decent shot at CS, theif of no theif.

btw it's spelt Thief, not Theif.
Thief is a clock against CS because Slaver does jack vs Fish. Couple that with the fact that you run Null Rod, it is far more convenient for CS to play their fat, which is the sound and safe plan, and is the plan that CS players actually use.

Dragon decks don't run more than 3 kill conditions.

Traditional UR fish has to evolve. The refusal for many UR fish players to abandon traditional card choices is the reason why UR fish hasn't been doing well.

[Tijnie]

5. Anyone remember what the draw engine actualy was in fish? If you answered standstill, BAD PUPPY! -5 points. Correct answer was curiosity, or as many players called it, ancestral over 3 turns. This worked because you had 8 MD flying critters, 4 of which allowed you to play the critter, and then untap and play the enchantment, for a turn 3 draw. The same can be done with grim, but is conditional with the number of cards in GY. 

actually this is not true. Go search in the historie and you'll find these words of Mr gay himself: Fish wanted to abuse 5 A. Recalls pointing to standstill. Lavamancer, cloud of faeries en mishra's factory all gave you treaths before your standstill. Spiketail Hatcheling could do the same thing because they were slowed again by one mana. Fish is an evalution of Landstill getting turned into an agrro deck AND the old mono-u agrro decks (like merfolk.dec). Now we had an aggro deck with 5 recall again (agrro got broken because of 4 A. recalls wich is why it got banned in the first place a LONG time ago). Then we wanted a second drai engine becasue 5 draw cards was to slow, searching for a cheap card it was curiosity that was found and brainstorm was left aside for once. This has been the formula for a strong deck that would have ruled the meta for a decent time and we're still building decks with this inspiration.

Back to this topic: i see why U/R is different than U/W. But what we didn't look for was WHY U/R's strategy wasn't working so well anymore. Lets take a look at the decks today, we can see that everyone suddenly fears wastelands. I think this is a major change because here you'll find yourself with the problem of not being able to play ur best gameplan. This is what made people change their gameplan and what did that give us? U/W and U/G (now even U/B). We addepted fish using new colors, and why shouldn't we? It's really just a choice and your meta screams for it. I don;t know what can bring U/R back. If i look at supa tim i'd say go play 4 stifle but is that the best way to solve red's problem? And though i see why your deck can disrupt your opponent completely, it look alot like old skool suicide black because it has no draw-engine (so it will stall more then once) but then without Necro or Will. I still believe fish MUST have a decent drawenige with a minimum of 7 "draw cards".

no-one seems to like Ninja around here, but if it's so bad why does it see play in almost all the fish decks that make it to the top8? (exept for U/B where it is replace for Dark Confidant). I Like ninja's and espesially in U/R where you have the best 1turndrops and the best toy's to remove smal creeps that are in your way.

Tijnie

[The Chosen One]

 I still believe fish MUST have a decent drawenige with a minimum of 7 "draw cards".


Tijnie

I highly agree with this. One thing about fish(any color combination) is that the builds vary SO much that your opponent has no REAL idea of what kind of shit you have in your hand. With the build I origionally posted on this thread, I would say 60-70% of the time have held at least 5 or more cards in hand with threats on board for a good portion of the games. The hesitation a "full" hand can put on your opponent can help you determine what kind of hand they are holding. I think U/r needs a little "bluffing" skill to play. And I think it is the reason I play U/r best out of the fish type builds I have played( U/W, U/G, U/G/w, U/G/w threshold"birdshit").. U/r has better speed, and really if you optimize damage well, a close, if not faster clock.

[[supa_t(im)]]

So does ninja not count as a draw engine?  I agree that, even if he does, its still a pretty meager one.  But curiosity just sucks.  It causes card disadvantage if the critter dies, and it forces you to run crappy creatures like cloud and hatchling.  The deck wants to run disruptive creatures, not just critters that fly and beat for 1.

So, since brainstorm isn't really a draw engine, something else needs to be but in.  I hate standstill because it relies on the opponent to do something.  I suppose I could give it another shot, even if I like to keep mana open on turn 2.

But what we didn't look for was WHY U/R's strategy wasn't working so well anymore.

U/R's strategy isn't working because people keep using bad creatures like Cloud and Hatchling, and bad strategies like standstill and curiosity.  Seriously, look over SCG's lists of U/R Fish.  It seems no one has bothered to adapt.

[nataz]

Yea, fish had 4 standstill, and was built to use them better then other decks, but that doesn't change the fact that curiosity combined with evasive creatures, was the primary draw engine in fish. Once/if you lose curiosity, you lose your primary draw engine, and neither Ninja nor brainstorm are appropriate replacements.

U/W fish gets around the Brainstorm problems by running good cards like jitte. Same with the U/G versions. If you use null rod in UR fish, you are going to have to find a new solution.

And as for curiosity being horrible b/c of all the targeted removal, I agree. Just look at Oath, CS, Gifts, Stax; all decks brimming with STP, lightning bolt, and psi blast.

Really, the only targeted removal I am worried about is darkblast, and so far it has been slow to catch on.

oh, and fish isn't an evolution of landstill. Landstill came after both mono-u fish and gay red. And also, although I agree that you probably want a better creature then Cloud in your decks right now, at least be aware of what it lent to the decks strategy.

Part of the reason why the "lets rebuild fish.dec" stumble, is that sometimes people don't understand why they worked in the first place. You either have to radically change the deck (see OFM2K or vial Fish), or you have to accept certain design constraints with in the archetype.

good luck guys.

[Imsomniac101]

And as for curiosity being horrible b/c of all the targeted removal, I agree. Just look at Oath, CS, Gifts, Stax; all decks brimming with STP, lightning bolt, and psi blast.

Seriously. Oath and Gifts couldnt care less about Curiosity. In fact they'd be happy for you to play it since it means one less card in your hand to worry about. Against Stax, increasing your vulnerability to Chalice for 1 is stupid when you get next to nothing in return.

oh, and fish isn't an evolution of landstill. Landstill came after both mono-u fish and gay red. And also, although I agree that you probably want a better creature then Cloud in your decks right now, at least be aware of what it lent to the decks strategy.

Fish is the bastard child of Sligh. That doesn't change anything now does it . I am aware of Faerie's role in Old fish. It's just that it doesnt cut it anymore. Also, decks weren't tuned as much as they could have been.

Part of the reason why the "lets rebuild fish.dec" stumble, is that sometimes people don't understand why they worked in the first place. You either have to radically change the deck (see OFM2K or vial Fish), or you have to accept certain design constraints with in the archetype.

Yes, but what if reasons for those card choices disappear from the metagame? Eg Sligh. No creatures in the format to control, therefore it becomes tier 2 or worse. Reason for UR fish not to play Curiosity? Answer: a faster format than pre Trini/Kamigawa.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I definitely know U/R Fish's roots.  I've been tinkering with it since Gay Summer 2003.  Yeah, I jumped on the bandwagon back then    I know Fish worked because even with all the janky cards in the deck, it was still a massively synergistic pile of janky cards.  Every thing went together.  The original design was ingenious for its time.  However, even with all that synergy, now the format can handle it.  U/R needs to change (obv) into something much more than a blue red deck that beats with 1/1 vanillas.  It needs to become something other than Gay/r.

Curiosity is bad for other reasons besides removal.  It doesn't do anything on its own.  Without evasive creatures it just sits in your hand doing nothing.  You may say similar things about ninja, but at least when ninja comes down he can increase the clock and actually do something on his own.  Even without the creature dying, losing curiosity is a loss of potential card advantage, and since that was its only purpose in the deck that could be quite staggering.

Ninja IS a better engine, especially in U/R.  It increases Fish's meager clock, and can get through even against other aggro decks because red has a plethora of direct damage.

[Imsomniac101]

Curiosity is bad for other reasons besides removal.  It doesn't do anything on its own.  Without evasive creatures it just sits in your hand doing nothing.

Oh yeah. forgot to mention that too.

[The Chosen One]

I have decided to run along tim's line with the creature base and a few other cards in the deck.. I think standstill is a keeper, along with cloud. I have a creature base of the following now:

4 Lavamancer
4 Ninja of the Deep hours
4 Cloud of faeries
4 Gorilla shaman
4 Spiketail Hatchling

The 3 rootwater thieves are in the sideboard now which I would love comments on... Here's what I am running now

3 Thief
3 BEB
3 REB
2 Lava Dart
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Extract

Comments please

[Adan]

I think 4 Ninjas and 4 Gorillas are overkill.

In the past Fish ran 1 or 2 Gorilla Shaman and i think 2 will do it.

I played 3 Ninjas and i thought they were good,until i saw that they needed a 1st turn drop.

And against Fish,Birdshit and other Aggros they will draw a card and then never again(the next time they will get blocked or Fired or whatever)

I play the strange build from Paris (2nd-best unpowered player) with 4 Brainstorms.And i like them a lot.thes have a great synergy with fetchlands,they dig up force of will and they improve the card quality.

My U/R Fish looks like this:

// Lands
    1  Mountain
    4  Volcanic Island
    2  Wooded Foothills
    2  Island
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    4  Cloud of Faeries
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    4  Spiketail Hatchling
    2  Gorilla Shaman

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    3  Daze
    4  Standstill
    3  Curiosity
    3  Null Rod
    2  Stifle
    1  Misdirection
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Fire/Ice

I only run 1 Crucible because i can find them with that carddraw and with CC3,they are quite expansive.

btw.: cutting Clouds of Faeries would be a mistake. 1st Turn Lavamancer,2nd Turn Cloud+Standstill-> Most broken move

edit:

I suggest following Things for the SB:

1 Umezawa's Jitte (good against Aggro)
3 Maze of Ith (there aren't so many Wastelands than before,so they can handle Oath and Gifts' Coloss very easy)
3 Rack and Ruin (seriously you need solutions against Stax.Stax is a worse Matchup)
4 REB (fast hardcounter against Gifts and they'll help in the case of a counterwar)
1 Gilded Drake (against Oath and Gifts)
3 Tormod's Crypt (in a unknown Meta,i prefer to play GY-hate. They are good against Gifts(the opponent can't gift the Winning-conditions,because they will be removed.And they are good against Dragon)

Ah,and i don't understand why you all say that U/R Fish has got Problems against Dragon?
BeB,Stifle,Wastelands,Tormod's Crypt,Waterfront Bouncer...there are a lot of things you can play against Dragon.

BeB,Stifle and/or Bouncer onto the dragon when the CiP is still on the Stack and the opponent will lose all his permanents.

So what kind of Fish you're playing is a Metagame-Choice.

Stax-Meta you can play U/R Fish...Goblin Welder was my super-secret-ninja-tech and Rack and Ruin ownz. But i prefer U/G Vial Fish for Staxmetas,because with Vial,Mongel,Chalice,Rootwalla you can have enough permanents to beat Stax...and against Stax,Rancor is really interesting....ah,and don't forget Rushwood Legate.

Gift- and Oath-Meta: U/W Fish or U/B Fish. They both have quite good solutions against Gifts and Oath. ah,and the U/B Fish can disrupt alot. but U/W is more interesting,because you can play it with chalice-vial or null rod( depends on the metagame).

so i would no say that U/R Fish is dying.

[Spartacus210]

A buddy and I both plan to head to an SCG P9 next year. But the thing is, I don't play much Vintage, so I don't know much about it, nor do I have any cards for it. Which leaves me to pick and construct a deck. So I looked around, and took into account my |337 m4g1c sk1llz (read: lack thereof) and decided on U/R fish. I'm just not good enough to play any sort of combo, and the only kind of control I'm good with is the Mono-blue casual kind.

So I'm falling back on turning creatures sideways.

Now I talked to a couple people about this. Nobody really had objections. I got this list from a buddy (DrossVamp, if you know him), saying he did pretty good with it. Now keep in mind, for SCG P9, so 10 proxies. I don't know what I can get a hold of by summer (probably when we're going) so just try to keep it relatively budget (that's you guys' specialty, or so I heard).

Current as of: 1/9/06

// Lands
3  Island
4  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
3  Flooded Strand
2  Polluted Delta
4  Volcanic Island - Proxy
4  Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4  Grim Lavamancer
3  Ninja of the Deep Hours
2  Waterfront Bouncer
4  Gorilla Shaman (2)
2  Voidmage Prodigy

// Spells
4  Force of Will
3  Null Rod
3  Fire/Ice
3  Annul
3  Brainstorm
3  Stifle
1  Black Lotus - Proxy
1  Ancestral Recall - Proxy
1  Mox Sapphire - Proxy
1  Mox Ruby - Proxy
1  Time Walk - Proxy

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 4  Chalice of the Void
SB: 2  Rushing River

Pretty straightforward. I can do my best to explain card choices, but you'd probably have to go to the people who helped me for more in-depth stuff. I cobbled together the SB with their help.

One thing I was wondering about in the SB is that new Replicating artifact destroyer instead of RaR. It seems strictly better, except for the heavier red requirement. Does it merit including instead of RaR?

EDIT: Snuck this in here. I'm not on a budget for this deck (completely unlike any of my other decks). I do have 1 proxy slot open going from this list, so I have room for 1 more super-expensive card.

And don't laugh at me for proxying duals.

[The Chosen One]

I have a thread going for U/R fish. I have had a bunch of posts with some good ideas, and discussions. I would check it out.  My build is proxyless(powerless) so it's truly budget except for the duals which I have.

[UR]

Why only three Null Rod?

[49 Cents]

Because 4 is one to much? Thet don't do something in every matchup, you know. 3 has always been the right number IMO.

[Spartacus210]

Why only three Null Rod?

49 Cents hit the nail right on the head. It doesn't do something in every matchup, and it does smell of untech w/Moxen and Lotus.

And thanks Bruenor, I'll go check the thread out.

[Spartacus210]

I think 4 Ninjas and 4 Gorillas are overkill.

In the past Fish ran 1 or 2 Gorilla Shaman and i think 2 will do it.

I played 3 Ninjas and i thought they were good,until i saw that they needed a 1st turn drop.

And against Fish,Birdshit and other Aggros they will draw a card and then never again(the next time they will get blocked or Fired or whatever)

I play the strange build from Paris (2nd-best unpowered player) with 4 Brainstorms.And i like them a lot.thes have a great synergy with fetchlands,they dig up force of will and they improve the card quality.

My U/R Fish looks like this:

// Lands
    1  Mountain
    4  Volcanic Island
    2  Wooded Foothills
    2  Island
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    4  Cloud of Faeries
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    4  Spiketail Hatchling
    2  Gorilla Shaman

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    3  Daze
    4  Standstill
    3  Curiosity
    3  Null Rod
    2  Stifle
    1  Misdirection
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Fire/Ice

I only run 1 Crucible because i can find them with that carddraw and with CC3,they are quite expansive.

btw.: cutting Clouds of Faeries would be a mistake. 1st Turn Lavamancer,2nd Turn Cloud+Standstill-> Most broken move

edit:

I suggest following Things for the SB:

1 Umezawa's Jitte (good against Aggro)
3 Maze of Ith (there aren't so many Wastelands than before,so they can handle Oath and Gifts' Coloss very easy)
3 Rack and Ruin (seriously you need solutions against Stax.Stax is a worse Matchup)
4 REB (fast hardcounter against Gifts and they'll help in the case of a counterwar)
1 Gilded Drake (against Oath and Gifts)
3 Tormod's Crypt (in a unknown Meta,i prefer to play GY-hate. They are good against Gifts(the opponent can't gift the Winning-conditions,because they will be removed.And they are good against Dragon)

Ah,and i don't understand why you all say that U/R Fish has got Problems against Dragon?
BeB,Stifle,Wastelands,Tormod's Crypt,Waterfront Bouncer...there are a lot of things you can play against Dragon.

BeB,Stifle and/or Bouncer onto the dragon when the CiP is still on the Stack and the opponent will lose all his permanents.

So what kind of Fish you're playing is a Metagame-Choice.

Stax-Meta you can play U/R Fish...Goblin Welder was my super-secret-ninja-tech and Rack and Ruin ownz. But i prefer U/G Vial Fish for Staxmetas,because with Vial,Mongel,Chalice,Rootwalla you can have enough permanents to beat Stax...and against Stax,Rancor is really interesting....ah,and don't forget Rushwood Legate.

Gift- and Oath-Meta: U/W Fish or U/B Fish. They both have quite good solutions against Gifts and Oath. ah,and the U/B Fish can disrupt alot. but U/W is more interesting,because you can play it with chalice-vial or null rod( depends on the metagame).

so i would no say that U/R Fish is dying.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on a couple points. Otherwise I agree.

I don't think CoW belongs in U/R Fish. Sure, recurring Wastes/Strips/Pwn't Factories is fun. But it just doesn't fit. There really aren't too many situations where it would make a huge difference. tim tested it, and he didn't get stellar results.

Cloud of Faeries is bad. Bad, bad, bad. Doesn't belong in here. That play you mentioned. It happens, what once in every 100-200 games? Cloud just isn't aggressive enough. Fish creatures should not only beat, but offer some kind of useful ability. Prodigy can counter, Lavamancer burns, Mox Monkey does his thing, Ninja draws cards into play. Cloud does nothing. It just sits there, a 1/1 flyer. You sneeze on em, and they implode.

I'm tuning U/R for P9 Richmond, where I heard Stax is very dominant. So I'm not running Jitte. But if there are more random Aggro decks in your meta, run Jitte. Fish is a very much metagamed deck. There is no one "optimal list." What works in one meta doesn't work in another.

Once again, for the Maze. If your against Oath/Gifts all day, run 3. I like it though, but I won't run more than 1.

I don't think the GIlded Drake is needed. You already have the mazes. While jacking a Collosus or Akroma is great fun, Maze just nullifies their phat beatz for free.

Crypt is good, but I don't think I would run 3. 2 in the board should be enough.

Once again, I mention I'm tuning for Richmond, so I've for 2 RaR and 3 Flux in my board.

I notice your lack of bounce throughout the whole deck. I currently use 2 RR's in the board, but I'm thinking of using 1 MD, just so I have some chance vs. Collosus in Game 1.

Your Fire/Ice count is lacking. Fire/Ice is possibly the best tool that U/R fish has ATM. You can ping random welders, get in those last couple points (though U/R never really has too much trouble with this) or tap Collosus/Akroma/large beatstick for that crucial turn you need to win. I personally have 3 MD and 1 SB (for mirror tech).

Another potentially crippling flaw I see is your game vs. Combo. Its positively abysmal. Your Null Rods may shut off SoLoMoxen, but thats if you can drop it fast enough. 4 CotV in the board is what makes our usually abysmal combo matchup better.

EDIT: I just beat the absolute tar out of Oath. Stifle is SO savage in this matchup. He drops Oath semi-early. I have no counter. I pull Annul off the top.  Anyway, I manage to Stifle Oath for 3 turns straight, which lets me beat him to 4. He manages to punch the activation through, but its too late. Note: I was also sitting on 2 F/I, so I had time.

I heartily endorse 3-4 F/I in EVERY U/R Fish deck. Each and every one. Stifle too. At least 2, I suggest 3. There are few matchups its useless.

Another neat trick my opponent pointed out. Game 1, my fate rested on a Walk. He didn't have the counter, so I won. But he pointed out that I could have beaten him from 3 to 1, then eat one of my own moxen to hit him with Mancer. Always pay attention when you have Mox Monkey + Mancer on the board.

[Law]

Unlike other decks, this deck and what I commonly use (R/G, WW) both ensure each creature must do something, such as:  Kill welders (and other things), draw cards, etc.

Everyone must open their eyes and see what can be done with the deck, such as using Back to Basics in a fish build (adjusting the manabase to not be harmed by it so much).  It would be different and help boost the tempo of the deck somewhat.

The thing is, people need to be willing to adjust and be innovative.  You need to be in the tempo mindset with this deck now, moreso than the other fish decks.  This deck cannot build itself so you need to think carefully of what each card can do and why it needs to do it.  I'm not too good with fish but after having built a deck from the ground up (the R/G) with each piece adding to how well the deck works you see how tempo needs to pan out.  The cards I think should be in U/R fish are close to what Tim put up (if I build the deck there might be a few changes) but the idea needs to be the same.

Also, you need to think like a tempo player.  It is a different mindset than most, but if you play the deck enough and are paying attention to what you can do in any given moment you will just learn it.

This is just a little thing I felt I had to say, even if it's just a little off topic.

Edited for spelling and grammar.  If I lost anything in translation, feel free to PM me.  Please proofread your posts before you click the button.
-Kowal[/color]

[Spartacus210]

Unlike other decks, this deck and what I commonly use (R/G, WW) both ensure each creature must do something, such as:  Kill welders (and other things), draw cards, etc.

Everyone must open their eyes and see what can be done with the deck, such as using Back to Basics in a fish build (adjusting the manabase to not be harmed by it so much).  It would be different and help boost the tempo of the deck somewhat.

The thing is, people need to be willing to adjust and be innovative.  You need to be in the tempo mindset with this deck now, moreso than the other fish decks.  This deck cannot build itself so you need to think carefully of what each card can do and why it needs to do it.  I'm not too good with fish but after having built a deck from the ground up (the R/G) with each piece adding to how well the deck works you see how tempo needs to pan out.  The cards I think should be in U/R fish are close to what Tim put up (if I build the deck there might be a few changes) but the idea needs to be the same.

Also, you need to think like a tempo player.  It is a different mindset than most, but if you play the deck enough and are paying attention to what you can do in any given moment you will just learn it.

This is just a little thing I felt I had to say, even if it's just a little off topic.

Edited for spelling and grammar.  If I lost anything in translation, feel free to PM me.  Please proofread your posts before you click the button.
-Kowal[/color]

This is how I've been trying to construct my build. All of my creatures have to have some kind of helpful ability. No vanilla stuff (Cloud, Flying Men).

This carbon-based lifeform speaks truth.

[The Chosen One]

No flying men? Why not? he is almost a guaranteed ninja on turn 2. I actually purchased some online(I think the guy is hosing me though, no replies to emails and he has my money  ) And I intend on running them if/when I get them

[Spartacus210]

No flying men? Why not? he is almost a guaranteed ninja on turn 2. I actually purchased some online(I think the guy is hosing me though, no replies to emails and he has my money  ) And I intend on running them if/when I get them

The way tim (and I too) see it, is that U/R fish needs aggressive creatures. While Flying Men may be the epitomy of effeciency (1/1 flyer for U) I feel it just doesn't belong. All creatures need to either beat for a good amount (2 or more) or have a helpful ability. Flying Men and Cloud just beat. Sure Cloud lets you play her, untap lands then Standstill, but this play happens, what 1 game out of every 3454?

And while it does give you mostly guarnteed Ninja turn 2, you would be tapped out turns one and two, which are the fundamental turns in T1.

Take a hypothetical game situation, vs. Oath.

Your on the play. Hand has mana, Annul, Flying Men, Ninja. It's game 2, so you know they are playing Oath. I, in this situation, would go Mana, go (Sapphire would change this, allowing to go Sapphire, Island/Volc, Flying Men, go, keeping Annul mana up). This gives you insurance against the Oath god-draw, Mox, Orchard, Oath, go. Playing Flying Men would probably screw you for the game.

It's really a matter of preference. I know vs. Oath you just have to keep the pressure up and hit em as hard as you can before Oath hits, but in that situation I would probably hold back the Men to keep Annul mana up.

Wow, I'm not sure if I made much sense. To tie it all up, I don't believe Flying Men really belongs in U/R.

[The Chosen One]

As I mentioned several posts ago about testing genju of the spire. They work.. I only ran one in the deck just to get a taste, and it can seriously smash face. I would recommend tossing 2 into a fish build just to try them.... I know they worked for me.

[Yare]

No flying men? Why not? he is almost a guaranteed ninja on turn 2. I actually purchased some online(I think the guy is hosing me though, no replies to emails and he has my money ) And I intend on running them if/when I get them

I have mixed feelings about Flying Men in general.  While the 1/1 blue (see: pitches to FoW) flyer is cool and all, I feel like there could be something better in that slot.  However, if you jump to a 2CC creature, then you risk clogging the 2 slot and consequently don't drop a spell on turn one, and only play 1 spell (as opposed to 2) on turn three.  I just feel like  Flying Men fits the niche the best in that he helps ninja, is blue, and you can safely Curiosity him.

[The Chosen One]

I have mixed feelings about Flying Men in general. While the 1/1 blue (see: pitches to FoW) flyer is cool and all, I feel like there could be something better in that slot. However, if you jump to a 2CC creature, then you risk clogging the 2 slot and consequently don't drop a spell on turn one, and only play 1 spell (as opposed to 2) on turn three. I just feel like Flying Men fits the niche the best in that he helps ninja, is blue, and you can safely Curiosity him.

Well, now that I actually do have the flying men, I would say I have to agree with Yare on the fact that they fly, they pitch to force, they swap for ninja like no tomorrow, and they are a good curiosity target. Heres a question for you all, how many ninjas should you run? 3? 4? Two is not enough, 3 can leave you wishing you had one in your opening hand when you plop a flying men on turn one. I have been playing with 4 and for me I think that is the best number, early game, one is great to pitch to force and dropping one two turns in a row is nuts.

[Yare]

I have mixed feelings about Flying Men in general. While the 1/1 blue (see: pitches to FoW) flyer is cool and all, I feel like there could be something better in that slot. However, if you jump to a 2CC creature, then you risk clogging the 2 slot and consequently don't drop a spell on turn one, and only play 1 spell (as opposed to 2) on turn three. I just feel like Flying Men fits the niche the best in that he helps ninja, is blue, and you can safely Curiosity him.

Well, now that I actually do have the flying men, I would say I have to agree with Yare on the fact that they fly, they pitch to force, they swap for ninja like no tomorrow, and they are a good curiosity target. Heres a question for you all, how many ninjas should you run? 3? 4? Two is not enough, 3 can leave you wishing you had one in your opening hand when you plop a flying men on turn one. I have been playing with 4 and for me I think that is the best number, early game, one is great to pitch to force and dropping one two turns in a row is nuts.

My gut says 3 is the right number, particularly if you are packing curiosity.  More than that is just too many, and you end up getting stuck with them sitting in your hand trying to get to four (!) mana to hardcast them.  If you aren't running curiosity and and are running at least eight one-drop creatures, you can get away with four ninjas, at least in my opinion.  In my UW fish build, (which I still find preferable to UR, in spite of Guildpact), I've been going back and forth between combinations of ninjas, flying men, and curiosity, and I can honestly say that one arrangement doesn't seem particularly dominant over the other.  Fish is more a deck (well, at least compared to other decks) about the ratios of spells to creatures to mana rather than what is actually in those slots.  I wouldn't spend too much time obsessing over it; your time will be much better spent just playing testing games and getting a better feel for the deck, what works and what doesn't, etc.

Not to hijack the thread too much, but with a fish build you need to answer these two questions:

1. Can you deal with combo?
2. Can you deal with Goblin Welder?

If you can answer those two questions, then you are off to a good start.  After that, you might consider the "mirror" although such a term is very, very relative in that fish builds vary so much.

[The Chosen One]

Not to hijack the thread too much, but with a fish build you need to answer these two questions:

1. Can you deal with combo?
2. Can you deal with Goblin Welder?

Well, combo prevention I run is 3 maindeck stifle, 3 null rod, and of course all the counter. I have noticed a need for 2-3 Fire/ice maindeck as well. I have a personal "problem" with getting rid of my clouds, and the standstills, but- they have been proved not to optimal anymore I guess.... Thoughts?

[Spartacus210]

Not to hijack the thread too much, but with a fish build you need to answer these two questions:

1. Can you deal with combo?
2. Can you deal with Goblin Welder?

Well, combo prevention I run is 3 maindeck stifle, 3 null rod, and of course all the counter. I have noticed a need for 2-3 Fire/ice maindeck as well. I have a personal "problem" with getting rid of my clouds, and the standstills, but- they have been proved not to optimal anymore I guess.... Thoughts?

For combo hate, I pack 4 CotV in the board. Helps a lot with all the accel spells. And 3 MD Stifles kinda help too, so I heard.

Against Welder I've got 3 F/I main, and 1 more SB, and 4 Lavamancer MD helps to blow them away. I think this is the best we can do against all of that.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I run 3 ninja, as more than that seem to clog up my hand.  A teamate loves having 4 though.  It may be a matter of playstyle.

As for combo, 3 stifle MD, and 4 Fow help the most, but gorilla shaman, annul, null rod, and voidmage can all do their bit to help.  Wastelands are good against combo that doesn't run a lot of basics.  Arcane Lab SBed helps a lot.  I suppose U/W has a better game against Combo with mage, but how much combo will you realistically see at an event?  Not much.

U/R has a lot of tools to deal with welder.  Grim Lavamancer, Fire/Ice, and BEB straight out kill him.  Gorilla shaman can eat all of his food.

The real question is can this deal with Oath.  I think, with fire/ice, stifle, and MD bouncers, it can.  When I play R/G against Oath, I often win because of mana denial, U/R Fish works the same way.