Komatteru
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Joseiteki
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« on: January 30, 2006, 01:54:30 am » |
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For fuck's sake, Rizzo has written an article on Vintage, or some format that somewhat resembles Vintage. Clearly, this is one of the worst things to happen to Vintage since the printing of Trinisphere. The content of the article is barely good enough for this forum, but w/e, here it is. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11229.htmlThoughts? |
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Cross
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2006, 02:38:37 am » |
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There were a couple ichorid decks day 1 of waterbury. I'm not sure how they did, but probably not well because they lose to tons of stupid cards.
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the GG skwad
"109) Cast Leeches.
110) You win the game."
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Machinus
Keldon Ancient
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 03:11:25 am » |
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X Creatures that are not Dragon
1 Bazaar of Baghdad Genius. |
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T1: Arsenal
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combo_dude
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 04:25:00 am » |
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For fuck's sake, Rizzo has written an article on Vintage, or some format that somewhat resembles Vintage. Clearly, this is one of the worst things to happen to Vintage since the printing of Trinisphere. The content of the article is barely good enough for this forum, but w/e, here it is. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11229.htmlThoughts? My own reaction was that this was one large piss-take, rather than a serious article. It's funny in places, but most of it is a bit boring. |
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The thing you are typing on is a keyboard, not a cellular phone. |
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pyr0ma5ta
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Posts: 451
More cowbell
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 05:42:27 am » |
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I thought that Rizzo was a decent deck designer, having never read any of his articles and knowing that he came up with the Ichorid deck. It would appear he has no concept on how to play Vintage. No Lotus or AR. Wrong. Just....ow, my eyes.
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Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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ReAnimator
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 11:35:38 am » |
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I think he wrote this under the assumption that you acctually need to own the cards not just proxies.
I bet if you acctually tried this out with 4x bazaar, it wouldn't be too bad, this should win on turn 3-4 and will have therapied you 3-5 times in those turns. Also it wins without ever casting a spell so have fun trying to stop uncounterable hasty beats.
Obv Tcrypt will ruin you, but i've played a bazaar dredge deck in the last 4 tournaments i've gone to and have been crypted a grand total of Zero times, I have no idea why no one runs that card.
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Goobafish: I'll cast lim dul's vault
Opponent: Ok
Goobafish: Sorry its foreign do you know what it does?
Opponent: Yes
Goobafish: Well I don't
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
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Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 01:27:38 pm » |
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Worst.manabase.ever
No AR is tech. It is clearly a win-more card. I wouldn't want to see that in my opening hand so I'm assuming that's why he cut it.
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Lunar
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 03:23:50 pm » |
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I just love when an ignorant other-formatter-person utterly destroys all of our work towards breaking the incorrect stereo-types of the format...
simply fantastic work for SCG to throw that pile up there...
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Dozer - "TMD is not a place where everyone can just post what was revealed to them in their latest wet dream"
Webster - "most of the deck is pimped, like my insane shirt, which exudes a level of pimpness only to be expressed as sublime."
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Dynamis
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 06:07:57 pm » |
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I love how there are 4 Vamp Tutors in his "Accelerated Black" Vintage deck.
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Manpriest
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2006, 06:50:05 pm » |
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As for the “metagame,� I see Vintage breaking down into three categories:
Combo decks that can win before you take a turn.
Creature decks.
Hybrids with some disruptive elements.
Which one doesn't belong? Edit: There are plenty of cards that can hurt you, but they will do no harm unless they are first drawn and then successfully cast. I do love that quote however. |
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 06:58:56 pm by Manpriest »
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www.pokerflea.comIt's so extremely frustrating spending days and weeks preparing, and all the time just know that some jolly Japanese will bash your head in with cards you've barely heard of. - Nicolai Herzog
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Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
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When am I?
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2006, 06:53:38 pm » |
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Which one doesn't belong?
Rizzo. |
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Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
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Manpriest
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 10:00:15 pm » |
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Which one doesn't belong?
Rizzo. Ding, ding, ding! Someone tell the man what he's won. Quote Fixed.　�JD |
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 10:09:14 pm by JDizzle »
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www.pokerflea.comIt's so extremely frustrating spending days and weeks preparing, and all the time just know that some jolly Japanese will bash your head in with cards you've barely heard of. - Nicolai Herzog
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
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Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 10:42:59 pm » |
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Koeka
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2006, 03:41:40 am » |
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Dynamis you might have read that this was an old deck he played, not in vintage obv, voltaic key is restricted for ages as is grim monolith, second thing, why are you all nagging about an article thats not really written for competitive t1, Rizzo obviously knows that the accelerated black deck wont be good, same goes for the dredge deck(until know  ) |
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Kasuras
The Observer
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2006, 04:40:18 am » |
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If Combo Boy goes first and assembles his combo on turn 1, you lose. I imagine most decks without multiple Force of Will do the same. However, even with a ton of broken cards, I find it implausible that this is a frequent event. If it was, everyone would play four Force of Will, Shoal and Misdirection or not even bother showing up. Then again, I don't know. So, his deck loses to the metagame. Eh? Seriously: how CAN this be serious? I have never met this guy, but it seems that he is desperately trying to achieve some status of the "cool dude playing magic". He fails terribly. |
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
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BigMac
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2006, 10:00:37 am » |
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Seems everybody is pretty defensive about something new in the metagame. I actually have played against a deck very similar to this decklist. I am not saying it to be brilliant, but it is pretty fast. I am not saying it to be the best deck i have ever seen or that it has no room for improvement, but in a threequarter powered field of 45 it made top 8 so it is pretty good in the hands of somebody that knows what to do. As said, perhaps not the best of decks ever, but promising nevertheless and probably fun. At least the guy that played it to a top 8 placing had lots of fun actually beating people to a pulp with a lot of "bad cards". No Lotus or AR. Wrong. Just....ow, my eyes. This is actually the worst of all comments on this deck. Why is a deck without a black lotus in vintage a bad deck. Just because every person ever plays a black lotus, it being the most expensive card of the game and the best accelerator, does not mean it is thebest card in every situation. The narrowmindedness of this remark is mindblowing. How have people become sheep. If one sheep crosses a bridge all sheep do, that is a bit like all people jump in the water so i jump. A smaller way to think actually is not possible i think. Perhaps every deck starts with black lotus, but why is that true. Jdizzle made a very good argument about why ancestral recall should not be in belcher. Perhaps in a different way this is true for black lotus in other decks. Again i am not saying this deck to be the best thing ever, but the narrowminded responses this deck got even surprised me, and i have seen some narrowminded responses on these boards over the last couple of months. |
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Ignorance is curable
Stupidity is forever
Member of team ISP
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Kasuras
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2006, 10:34:34 am » |
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Bigmac: the problem lies in the fact that his explanation is REALLY bad, not accurate and that his lists are not also not good compared to what other people have done for dredge decks but he also presents them as if they're the stone cold nuts. They're not, and his explanation sucks.
As well: how can you compare a 0cc artifact with a U costing spell? Every deck wants to cast spells, not every deck necessarily wants to devote a slot or manabase to that Ancestral Recall. I'm sorry, but I do believe that no Lotus is a mistake. And your reasoning why it's not is more about people playing monkey rather than why Lotus is not a good idea in this deck.
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
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Chiz
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2006, 10:55:40 am » |
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I love how there are 4 Vamp Tutors in his "Accelerated Black" Vintage deck.
That decklist was the deck he played during the 2001 Extended season... Rizzo's decklist of Friggorid isn't optimal at all... But, a good build is pretty solid. I had a good result with a type1 Friggorid deck... That's pretty fast and able to play under counterspells. That's not the best deck ever, not the best deck now in the format, but it is certainly a good deck that may perform very well... |
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Team Québec
Fasle Dawn: 191
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BigMac
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 02:51:13 pm » |
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Kasuras, i agree that his explanation was far from perfect. I also agree that lotus probably should be included. My point was that many people were pounding on a deck i have seen making top 8, so pounding on a deck that they probably have not tested and thus know nothing about.
About the lotus, i was talking about the comment, if he makes such a remark, at least explain why it is so wrong, as he is just as bad at explaining as the original text. That to me is very narrow and just pounding because everybody is pounding. So thinking like a sheep, going with the flow, go the easy road.
Again, the deck is far from perfect, the explanations far from complete. But i have seen what a good version of this deck is capable of. It could be an asset to the metagame as it is fast, it has creatures and is easy to make for budgetplayers. As a version without power or bazaars could work very well.
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Ignorance is curable
Stupidity is forever
Member of team ISP
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Kasuras
The Observer
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2006, 03:05:32 pm » |
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I don't agree, I don't see any people bashing dredge here. As well: my point is not that his explanation is not complete, it's just WRONG.
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Ye weep, unhappy ones; but these are not your last tears!
-Frankenstein, -Mary Shelley.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
-The Divine Comedy, -Dante Alighieri
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Lunar
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2006, 03:36:06 pm » |
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BigMac...your defense seems misplaced and a bit off target... My point was that many people were pounding on a deck i have seen making top 8 While I can understand this outlook, if you take a gander at that list that made top 8, and rizzo's crap shack list, you might notice that while one is decent the other is really not. His analysis of the format as a whole is both incorrect and damaging, either he is joking (badly) or is just an ass (probably both). He also demonstrates a complete lack of anything worthwhile in this piece, and unless there is some inside joke going on with him and SCG I really am not able to firmly grasp at why this would be published. SCG used to be pretty friendly to T1, now it seems not so much (to me anyways) I realize that rizzo says openly that he is bad, and that you can take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt...this still doesnt change the fact that there are like infinite non-T1 players who now think hes a genius and has "just broke vintage" (quote from SCG thread on the article) Hes broken it about as much as Zvi did, and of course I started seeing conversions of Ichorid to T1 long before his article with a "bad" ichorid build went up. |
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2006, 04:05:02 pm by Lunar »
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Dozer - "TMD is not a place where everyone can just post what was revealed to them in their latest wet dream"
Webster - "most of the deck is pimped, like my insane shirt, which exudes a level of pimpness only to be expressed as sublime."
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kirdape3
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2006, 09:26:52 pm » |
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Apparently he's just being an idiot. John "Friggin" Rizzo is not the writer you would be looking for for serious strategy writing - the Ichorid deck is far more likely to be a flash in the pan (which is conveniently disabled by Leyline of the Void, by the way) than an indicator of the worthiness of his speech.
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WRONG! CONAN, WHAT IS BEST IN LIFE?!
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women.
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Lunar
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2006, 09:36:43 pm » |
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I understand that he is being a freaking idiot...I even get that that is what he writes for, to be an idiot...
what I dont get is that it gets published and that there ARE people out there listening to him...It suprises me even more that SCG would run with something that is so obviously low in overall quality. If its a cute joke then it is just really below par in the humor category, if its supposed to be a sarcastic view at what is actually supposed to be a good deck for the format, then I think he fails there as well since its really a terrible build...a good idea...bad execution.
At least this one wasnt premium though..paying for that pile would be a major letdown...
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Dozer - "TMD is not a place where everyone can just post what was revealed to them in their latest wet dream"
Webster - "most of the deck is pimped, like my insane shirt, which exudes a level of pimpness only to be expressed as sublime."
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TheUprisal
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2006, 10:06:31 pm » |
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I understand that he is being a freaking idiot...I even get that that is what he writes for, to be an idiot...
what I dont get is that it gets published and that there ARE people out there listening to him...It suprises me even more that SCG would run with something that is so obviously low in overall quality. If its a cute joke then it is just really below par in the humor category, if its supposed to be a sarcastic view at what is actually supposed to be a good deck for the format, then I think he fails there as well since its really a terrible build...a good idea...bad execution.
QFT Is Star City trying to waste everyones time? I mean seriously, I havent posted in 2-3 weeks because of this thing called college, and I see a StarCity article not written by Smmenen and Im like...hmmm...so I read it and feel like Ive regressed 3 years in magic. Oh yea, Ive only played 3 years. Rizzo, STFU. Please. Stick to what you know, and if your going to venture into Vintage, do it seriously. We take this format seriously. Granted, reminiscing on old times is fun. But that article is fucking pointless. |
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Team Vorple Bunny - Illinois chapter 3.14
Fuck a bunch of Wasteland
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pyr0ma5ta
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Posts: 451
More cowbell
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2006, 01:56:23 am » |
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Rizzo, STFU. Please. Stick to what you know, and if your going to venture into Vintage, do it seriously. We take this format seriously.
QFT. Black lotus is most definitely an auto in, because you don't care about card disadvantage to get out a turn 1 Zombie Infestation or tawg. Chrome mox seems incredibly out of place, and 1 Bazaar is surely a mistake in a DREDGE deck with no tutors?!? Also, if you don't draw the Bayou, you can never cast the Life from the Loam. Impressive. |
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Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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Komatteru
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Joseiteki
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2006, 12:56:31 pm » |
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Hey, Rizzo's ramblings are better than mine...according to Ted Knutson at least. Everyone on SCG got the pleasure of reading 60 pages of Rizzo rambling such as "don't play against Swamps" instead of my Chicago tournament report.
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nataz
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Mighty Mighty Maine-Tone
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2006, 01:07:17 pm » |
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To be fair though, the Rizzo series brought the Friggorid deck into extended.
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I will write Peace on your wings
and you will fly around the world
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pyr0ma5ta
Basic User
Posts: 451
More cowbell
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2006, 02:04:05 pm » |
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The reason I thought that Rizzo might not have been a total 'tard is becuase of Ichorid. I'm now enlightened to the truth. Supposedly he's funny, but I fail to see the humor in the pile of failure that is this article. JD, don't feel too bad. People don't want information on the intarwebs, they want their funnies. Even if they're not funny.
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Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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TheUprisal
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2006, 02:08:14 pm » |
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He did, and Friggorid is a monster, but this "article" (or excrement?) just cuts my respect for him badly. It MAY be a joke, I'm still not precisely sure, but dude...if its hard to tell that this is a joke, then there must be a problem. Oh, and JDizzle, 60 pages of "don't play against swamps" is the most groundbreaking relevation ever in this fabulous game. Â Â It even outdoes the concept of 60-card decks..I mean come on, who wants to seriously have the best chance of topdecking a gamewinning spell like the restricted Grip of Chaos? Next up, Rizzo announces that Rush of Knowledge is the greatest draw spell Wizards could ever print. |
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Team Vorple Bunny - Illinois chapter 3.14
Fuck a bunch of Wasteland
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Lunar
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2006, 02:11:11 pm » |
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Dont even get me started on ted knutson JD...after the big f*ck up on my article getting published there (their mistake...) I have ZERO respect for the man...He even refused to fix the spelling error in my name after I told him my last name was spelled wrong there...sheesh..
There is supposed to be a new editor or whatever, but it still seems like kahnewt is doing things there...
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Dozer - "TMD is not a place where everyone can just post what was revealed to them in their latest wet dream"
Webster - "most of the deck is pimped, like my insane shirt, which exudes a level of pimpness only to be expressed as sublime."
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