[Discussion] Tangle Wire in Ubastax!

[Hydra]

I was the Gifts player JDizzle played against that was able to do the Rebuild thing.  Personally, I LOVE having Tangle Wire dropped against me for the simple fact that in my own experiences the Stax player is usually just as effected by it as I am.  A Welder has to be active for Wire to be a truly relevant lock piece, and considering that Gifts decks are starting more and more to run Pithing Needle, Welder/Wire locks can easily be rendered useless, especially when you consider that the Needle shutting down your Welder also hinders the effectiveness of the Wire.  Sure Gorilla Shaman is an out, but you're usually hurting your own position by having to find the mana to play/activate him WHILE still tapping down for Wire.

Like JDizzle, I find the absolute lack of anything even remotely resembling a clock in the deck very poor.  A player with Vroman's playskill might be successful with such a strategy, but 99% of the people who play UbaStax aren't on Vroman's play level.  I love playing Gifts versus this modern UbaStax build, the UbaStax player generally runs lock pieces which are no more than a slight annoyance (Null Rod/Tangle Wire) and lacks any real form of tutoring to fetch lock pieces that would be relevant, if they were even running them (Chalice/Sphere of Resistance). 

What I'm curious of, Evenpence, is the sort of Gifts decks that are played in your area, and if they're even being piloted by competant players.  Perhaps my "luck" against the deck could stem from the fact that I play in Workshop country and have played the Stax (Uba and 5c) matchup so many times that beating it has become second nature, but I hardly see the Gifts/UbaStax match-up as one-sided as people seem to like to make it sound.

[einlanzer625]

If you're not addressing any part of his post, there's no need to quote the whole thing. It just clogs up the thread.

Also, warning for spam.

-Jacob

just a thought guys, instead of portcullis, what about something like ensnaring bridge?

[nataz]

A Welder has to be active for Wire to be a truly relevant lock piece

Not quite true, as a UbaMask can become a decent lock with wire in place. And as far as your rebuild example, let be honest here. Rebuild is > then every lock peice in any stax deck minus ITEOC.

and, I really question this logic.

Personally, I LOVE having Tangle Wire dropped against me for the simple fact that in my own experiences the Stax player is usually just as effected by it as I am.

Between stacking the triggers so you always have 1 less fade counter then your opp, and the ability to tap not only tangle wire, but also lock peices, while the gifts player generaly has to tap mana sources, I fail to see how the above is true, usually.

And finally,

I love playing Gifts versus this modern UbaStax build, the UbaStax player generally runs lock pieces which are no more than a slight annoyance (Null Rod/Tangle Wire)

Null Rod only rates as a "slight annoyance" while Chalice gets the relevant treatment?! I've played my share of UbaStax vs. some of the best Gifts players in NewEngland, and all of the testing shows that Null Rod is a ridiculous BOMB vs gifts decks, while chlaice is mostly just a speed bump. Chalice shuts of moxen, but only if played first turn. Null Rod shuts off moxen any turn, and hits Sol Ring/Crytp/Time Vault. Between knocking out half of their kill conditions, and at least a 1/3 to half of their mana, at any point during the game puts Null rod at a way bigger threat then chalice.  

Now, I may not agree with the direction that UbaStax is taking in this thread, but some of the points you are making don't make any sense to me. What version of Gifts are you testing?

edit*

The version with multiple Merchant Scrolls and 3 Gifts don't care nearly as much as the 4 TfK builds about Uba Mask...With that in mind, you have a battle of goldfishes: can Uba Stax get a solid lock down before Gifts locates Rebuild.

Gifts with 3 merchant scroll + multiple rebuild do much better against stax in general then TFK gifts. The thing is, I almost never see MDGifts in NE, while TFK gifts and the ilk are pretty rampant. Although, how good is merchant scroll against tangle wire?

[Moxlotus]

I don't play Uba Stax--I am saying this from the opposition.

TangleWire is ass in Uba Stax, while it is amazing in 5-color Stax.  Why?  Because Uba doesn't drop anything broken on the 1 or maybe 2 turns it gets.  Its best play is to drop a Stack that becomes relevant in like 3 turns.  5-color Stax can do something retarded like Tinker a Titan into play or play Balance and completley bone me before I have a chance to do recover.  I'd be much more scared of ANY other lock piece from Uba Stax because I know I can sit there and whack off until Wire is done with my basics and fetches and play my bomb (Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Oath, Intuition, Gifts, anything).  With a Wire coming down from 5-color Stax I usually don't have that luxury of time.

[Hydra]

Personally, I LOVE having Tangle Wire dropped against me for the simple fact that in my own experiences the Stax player is usually just as effected by it as I am.

Between stacking the triggers so you always have 1 less fade counter then your opp, and the ability to tap not only tangle wire, but also lock peices, while the gifts player generaly has to tap mana sources, I fail to see how the above is true, usually.

I love playing Gifts versus this modern UbaStax build, the UbaStax player generally runs lock pieces which are no more than a slight annoyance (Null Rod/Tangle Wire)

Null Rod only rates as a "slight annoyance" while Chalice gets the relevant treatment?! I've played my share of UbaStax vs. some of the best Gifts players in NewEngland, and all of the testing shows that Null Rod is a ridiculous BOMB vs gifts decks, while chlaice is mostly just a speed bump. Chalice shuts of moxen, but only if played first turn. Null Rod shuts off moxen any turn, and hits Sol Ring/Crytp/Time Vault. Between knocking out half of their kill conditions, and at least a 1/3 to half of their mana, at any point during the game puts Null rod at a way bigger threat then chalice.  

Now, I may not agree with the direction that UbaStax is taking in this thread, but some of the points you are making don't make any sense to me. What version of Gifts are you testing?

I play Diceman style Gifts.  With that particular build, Tangle Wire is largely irrelevant because UbaStax has a hard time following it up with a threat, as JDizzle said.  I can sit on my basic Islands and not worry too much about it, as UbaStax doesn't have a relevant clock and has a hard time setting up an actual hard lock which would make it impossible for me to Rebuild through with Islands.

Null Rod is merely annoying because I run lots of Islands.  Comparing Chalice to Null Rod comes down to what cards are good for me to resolve against you.  Needle still shuts off Bazaar/Welder to slow UbaStax down just the same regardless of Null Rod, where as Chalice CUTS OFF SPELLS COMPLETELY.  Losing my artifact mana is merely annoying, but losing my ability to resolve the spells I need to find Rebuild can be back-breaking, hence why I consider Chalice an actual threat.

Null Rod CAN cut off Tendrils or Flame Vault wins, but not Colossus, leaving you to find Dup/active Welder, which is much easier said than done after Rebuild has freed up my resources. 

[nataz]

Well, if you play cards like Time Vault, Null Rod might matter.  If you play a win condition that's not awful, then Null Rod is indeed just a minor annoyance.  Against Diceman-style Gifts or Traditional Meandeck Gifts, Rod is just mana denial, and with the infinite Islands in Traditional Meandeck Gifts...

huzzah,

No discussion is complete until someone from meandeck bashes FVGifts. I'm glad we got that one out of the way, and can now move on to other topics.

I play Diceman style Gifts.  With that particular build, Tangle Wire is largely irrelevant because UbaStax has a hard time following it up with a threat, as JDizzle said

With that said, is it a problem of Tangle Wire, or a problem of UbaStax in general?

In theory, tangle Wire sets up a gap in which:
a) aggro decks have trouble attacking
b) Control Decks can't use mana drain

A is easy. UbaStax (and stax often times in general) is terrible at stopping aggro-rushes. UbaStax doubly so because of the lack of both Trike (in more traditional builds) and colored removal spells such as sTP/balance (5-color). Tangle wire can help with both of these situations. It also helps deal with Oath game 1, something that most of the other suggested/previous replacements did not (dup being a noteable exception).

It's assumed that these qualities are not enough to include wire, so moving on we get to...

b) Here is the question people seem to be focusing on. No one is argueing that wire, when correctly played, creates gaps in an opponents counter wall like no other card.

It has been proposed that 5-color can take advantage of these gaps, and uba can not. More specificly, it has been proposed that wire is good in 5-color specificly b/c  they can 1) pop off a tutor for strip mine, 2) balance, or 3) tinker. Ubastax, having none of these bombs, can afford to play other cards in its place.

Just for referance, mono-red version sometimes run the following in place of wire: Jens, monkey, and SOR 

I think its important to recognize that tangle wire isnt a "threat" persay, its an enabler. Tangle Wire allows your "real threats" (welder, smoke, crucible, moneky) to actualy resolve.

The question becomes the following:

Does the enhanced ability to resolve the remaining threats left in UbaWire outweigh the additional pressure that simply more threats (3-4x of Jens, Monkey, or SOR) would add to the deck?

Thats the real quesiton here, if I'm wrong feel free to call me on it. In fact,

I'd hope that anyone that says tangle wire is crap, can  offer 3 cards that make much more sense. (In case your are curious, for me its crop rotation, glacial chasm, and fastbond but thats something else altogether.) If you can't offer a different choice from one of the earlier iterations, then is your problem really with tangle wire, or the entire deck?

I heavily suspect the former by the tone of at least some of the posters, but it could just be the interweb doing its thing. Let me know if I'm wrong.   

[Komatteru]

Actually, I was just taking a shot at the Vault itself, not the deck as a whole.

[Moxlotus]

Personally, I would fear SoRs more than Wires.  If they are already playing Spheres, I would do one of 2 things:

Play more Monkeys, Dupes (if not already playing 2) and Rod #3
Play a finisher so the opponent can't sit on basics for 10 turns.

[Hydra]

I'm with Moxlotus, I much prefer SORs to Wires, as they hinder the countering ability of a deck permanently instead of for a couple of turns like Wire does.  It also is much better against combo decks, as combined with Null Rod it can provide almost a total lock.

I think the lack of a clock is a problem with UbaStax, and that the Wire versions just seem to make that flaw more obvious.  With the adjusting mana bases and people becoming more experienced playing against UbaStax, trying to set-up and maintain a "hard" lock seems unrealistic to me.  I personally think UbaStax could benefit greatly from a faster win condition against certain decks, although what that win condition should be I'm drawing a blank on.

[sundering titan]

Hi,

@Evenpence / Vroman

I have been playing Ubastax regularly during the last weeks and i really love the deck. I have been following closely the discusion in the forum trying to learn as much as possible

Currently im playing :

standard+
4 tangle wire
2 dup
2 shaman
2 nrod
0 sor

sideboard :
2 nord
3 jesters cap
3 fiery temper
2 red elemental blast
2 dup
3 heretic

Please, could you advice how to sideboard (in and out) and some explanation against :
Oath
Control slaver
Stax
Gifts

I have lots of problems when sideboarding since i dont really know what to take out and put in. On top of that it really matters if you are on the play or on the draw.... so its kind of hard to master this side of the game.

I would appreciate your comments.
Thanks!

[benthetenor]

I'm with Moxlotus, I much prefer SORs to Wires, as they hinder the countering ability of a deck permanently instead of for a couple of turns like Wire does.  It also is much better against combo decks, as combined with Null Rod it can provide almost a total lock.

I think the lack of a clock is a problem with UbaStax, and that the Wire versions just seem to make that flaw more obvious.  With the adjusting mana bases and people becoming more experienced playing against UbaStax, trying to set-up and maintain a "hard" lock seems unrealistic to me.  I personally think UbaStax could benefit greatly from a faster win condition against certain decks, although what that win condition should be I'm drawing a blank on.

I don't think that going for the hard lock is all that unrealistic. The deck was designed to do just that, and in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, it does so quite frequently. With the loss of the surprise factor, that simply means that one cannot play like a d-bag and expect to get the hard lock every time. Uba Stax remains one of the most complicated decks to pilot, what with the complexities inherant in aggressive use of Bazaar of Baghdad, one of the keys to optimal play with the deck. It's so complex that when one puts the deck down for a few weeks or a month, they must work very hard to get back up to speed. All the Tangle Wires in the world won't save you if you don't know what to pitch to Bazaar.

[Evenpence]

Hi,

@Evenpence / Vroman
...

I would appreciate your comments.
Thanks!

I shuffle my sideboard into my deck then pick out the most useless 15 cards.  I sometimes have different sideboards, even if I'm playing just 50+ games in a night of testing with an opponent, because I come to realize that some of the stuff in my SB is better than other things in my SB.

When we do a night of playtesting, we get a playset of ALL the cards we're thinking of throwing in, and just throw them in there, but we're restricted to only having 8 (because how many more are honestly going to side in?) in your decks.

To do that, and to playtest, is honestly the best advice I can give you when it comes to SBing.

With your SB, which is:
2 nord
3 jesters cap
3 fiery temper
2 red elemental blast
2 dup
3 heretic

It seems you've gone Vroman's route with 2 rod MD/2 rod SB, with some SB advice from me (rebs and caps).

Against slaver, you want to side in everything that could be good against them, which is honestly your entire board, except for the duplicants.  I'd probably take out a single duplicant, maybe even 2 to optimize my opening hand.  I would definitely put in the null rods (obviously), the fiery tempers (to kill welders, and even possible heretics), both rebs (they stop counters, especially drain), and maybe even a heretic if you have room for it.  If you still have room (which is hard to do against slaver) I would also put in a cap.  Like I said, I shuffle the SB in and then just take out the most useless cards until I have 15 cards in my SB, and 3 duplicants, 2 heretics, and 3 caps come out immediately.  Everything in the MD is honestly good against Slaver, which is why it's the hardest match to SB for.  Tangle Wires come out.

Against Oath, the SBing is easy.  Take out Null Rods and Gorilla Shamans, add in rebs and duplicants, then take out three more things for caps.  I, personally, would also take out a single crucible, a single uba mask, and a single mountain (since the shamans are out) for the three caps.  I can't think off the top of my head what else would come out - go in, because I'm not shuffling around the deck+sideboard in my hands, and I don't think of things like:  "What goes in for what?"  I think, 'What is the most useless?"  Uba Mask pretty often gets that title, although alot of times I'll keep 1 or maybe 2 in, because it can randomly dominate them if they draw an angel off it.  Brainstorm is also crap under Uba Mask.  It really depends on what Oath build they have too, but usually this is the easiest SB decisions.

Stax might actually be easier.  In:  Heretics, Fiery Tempers, out Tangle Wires, single Uba Mask, and some other stuff.  Once you play the matchup enough, it's like clockwork.  If you're playing the Ubastax mirror, I side out Uba Masks all together (hoping my opponent keeps them in), and Null Rods as well.  You can really customize the deck however you want against 5c, and even against Ubastax to a certain degree.

Gifts - this SB is a little more tricky.  You have to figure out what build they're playing.  Then you have very little slots to SB in for, but you have to think about what they're SBing in for you.  It effects your play more than anything, and not your SB in games 2 and 3, but pyroblasts always go in.  (they ALWAYS go in with Fish too, because of Energy Flux).  2 Null Rods definitely go in.  I would take out a single duplicant (leave one in for colossus protection, although it's not much).  Activated Cap wins you the game against Gifts, because you get Colossus, and the kill.  I would personally side in 3 Caps game 2, and then consider siding them out game 3, as sometimes Gifts will allow an Uba Mask or something hoping you're just playing bad locks and not cap.

Tangle Wires almost always come out on the play, same with Shaman, as you can always put SOMETHING better than them in there.  Shaman and Wire are useless to get on the play, and you should get SOMETHING to stop your opponent with, whether it be null rod, or chalices, or uba mask, etc.  You want to screw his turn 1 play up more than anything when you're on the play.  The only time I don't side them out is against Gifts or maybe something else, where they're still the last cards to stay in, but they somehow do.

You don't have Spheres to deal with too, so that makes SBing alot easier.

[Hydra]

In reference to what Evenpence said, with any deck you should shuffle in your sideboard and remove 15 cards while boarding, as it may mislead your opponent into thinking you're running a transformative sideboard and thus be confused when doing their own boarding.

[Evenpence]

I don't think good Gifts players really have many problems winning without Mana Drain.  Those that cannot win without big Mana Drains should not be playing the deck.

They do...though.  When playing against Mana Drain, I look at it as a HUGE accelerant for them.  Especially when playing with a deck that constrains (sp?) their manabase, they need acceleration to cast thirst, merchant scroll a few times, etc etc to be able to win.

The whole point of Null Rod is to stop them from being able to accelerate, buying me enough time to kill their lands off so I can play my own stuff, not fearing additional counters to win.

By them playing mana drain, they accelerate into new cards (and possibly new drains) which allow them to do the same exponentially.

Big mana drains are absolutely needed when your opponent has null rod, mox monkey, and active goblin welder down.  I don't know how long you've been playing either Ubastax OR Gifts, JD, but what you've said just simply isn't true - mana drain is a huge selling point of Gifts, because they are the deck that can best abuse the mana, and as a result, base their deck around to abuse mana.  If they don't get mana, that makes them more susceptible to losing the game.

If my opponent plays a non-basic land on turn 1, and I know he's playing Gifts, I'm not going to play mountain-welder, go, I'm going to wasteland that non-basic and hope he A) doesn't have a brainstorm, which he usually does, and B) doesn't get land off the brainstorm, because I already know he's mana-screwed.  Not playing red land-welder and playing wasteland has won me MANY games, because Gifts is very succeptible to mana-hating, which is why Ubastax wins in most of the matchups (although it's not as lopsided as a few people take it to be, I don't think it's anything like 65-35, maybe 60-40 at an extreme, but probably somewhere in between that and 55-45).  Game 1 is a pretty big advantage for Ubastax, though, because we don't even SB anything against Gifts, except for maybe 2 Null Rods (if you're running the version with only 2 MD) and 2-3 Pyroblasts (if you're running the SB with pyroblasts).

As for all the talk about the Gifts vs. Ubastax matchup in the other thread as well, I'd say (and this will be disagreed with) that Game 1, is about 55-45 to 65-35 in Ubastax favor, depending on if they're going first, and the build of the Gifts AND Ubastax player, and anywhere from 50-50 to 60-40 in Ubastax favor, depending on the same things.

[Hydra]

Mana Drain is a huge accelerant, but JDizzle is right, if the Gifts player cannot win without Drains then you need to be playing another deck.  When MD Gifts first became popular, Randy Buehler was quoted in saying that he would board OUT Mana Drains.  It's folly to assume that the Gifts player NEEDS Drain mana to win, because they run more than enough accelerants otherwise to win if you cut them off from the Drains.  If they are leaning on Drain mana, they either kept a subpar hand or grossly misunderstand how to properly play the deck, which would definitely lead to the "lopsided" results people tend to claim against Gifts.

[Evenpence]

Although they have other accelerants, which you're completely right about, these accelerants are cut off by Ubastax, which was my point in making to JD.  Null Rod, and Chalice for 0 (and if you really want to play it, 1), cut off the accelerants that Gifts has available to them.  By cutting off Mana Drain, they have no accelerants, and need to build up to an enormous amount of lands to win, which is nigh impossible (JD!  I love your terminology) with Smokestack / Crucible + Waste or Crucible + Strip).

I would completely agree that good Gifts players do NOT need Mana Drain to win in most cases.  However, when all your accelerants have been stopped, it is sometimes the only thing that can save a good Gifts player.

I would completely agree with Randy, because he wasn't talking about the Stax matchup.    Good players don't board out Mana Drains in the Stax matchup, either.

[Hydra]

They don't board it out, I was using it as an example to show that Drain can be unnecessary.  Crucible + Waste is actually a very poor lock against most modern Gifts builds unless you catch them with a mana light hand.  Crucibile + Strip or a ramped up Smokestack are the only game-ending mana locks against Gifts, and either will only be a factor if you get a lucky draw or the Gifts player drew quite poorly.

For the life of me I cannot fathom WHY you think Mana Drain is the only thing that can save a good Gifts player.  A good Gifts player is saved by keeping your limited ways of killing their basic lands off the board, which IS doable under almost any lock you can throw out.  If they are leaning on Drains, either you got an INSANE draw or they should be playing a different deck.

[PucktheCat]

By cutting off Mana Drain, they have no accelerants, and need to build up to an enormous amount of lands to win

How many lands do they need to win?  I would guess 3 would be about right.  That casts Tinker and Rebuild.  4 is nice because it powers a Gifts, but you can win without ever casting Gifts, or only casting it after you have Rebuilt the board.

[nataz]

with all this being said, does UbaStax even pose a threat to most gifts decks? In both discussions it sounds like the gifts players are completely dismissing the deck, while talking about it being an even match-up.

Basic Islands, no need to rely on Mana Drain, Null Rod not being a problem, smokestack being too slow, bouce solving major problems, MD pithing needle shutting down everything usefull, etc, etc, etc.

Taking out tangle wires and adding in SOR changes none of this. It doesnt speed up the clock, and at best, all it does is force the Gifts player to play one more of its "infinity" islands before it wins. It will slow down a gifts deck, but that doesn't help vs. Oath, or Aggro, and it certainly won't buy the 8-10 turns you seem to imply that a win takes.

JD, you are seeing alot of problems, but are you seeing any way to fix them? And in failing being able to fix them, is UbaStax suddenly a non-worthwhile deck? 

[nataz]

If I had more time, something that I would like to try is Razormain for a finnisher. It shores up the aggro match-up, is weldable, doesnt die to Null Rod, and its drawback works well with both welder and crucible. @ 5 mana, its similar enough in casting cost to both Trike and Karn, and the 5/5 body is nothing to sneeze at either.

[Komatteru]

The problem with Razormane is the upkeep.  The deck is not especially good at keeping cards in its hand.  Bazaar + Mask = you never actually get to attack with it.

[Hydra]

Between Null Rod, Uba Mask and Bazaar the deck is left with cards like Juggernaut, Myr Enforcer, Sundering titan and Arcbound Crusher as possible "clocks", none of which are particularly appealing.  I'm personally at a real loss of what to suggest without retooling the deck.

[benthetenor]

I actually think the random Wheel made for a great swing (you can't really lose after Wheel with Mask up), and Jens is indeed a beater.  Maybe the thing is to go back to the original deck.

I absolutely never do this, but Q.F.T.

All of the recent iterations have not made the deck more stable. Scratch that. The deck is more stable but at the cost of a clock. Adding a tempo card like Tangle Wire into a deck while decreasing the threats removes an entire half of the tempo equation: untapping creatures. If it's late game and I drop a Tangle Wire, I sure as hell want to be beating face while taking my extra turns. What we need to do as a community is find room for Solemn Simulacrum again. Not having to recycle lands as part of your clock is actually intuitive, as those land drops can be used for other purposes. Being able to swing with a creature, even one as lowly as Jens, is like giving yourself extra land drops while simultaneously shortening the game, bringing your opponent into Barbarian Ring range.

I honestly don't know if there's any room, which is obvious since I can't present a list. Any ideas? There's a bit of wiggle room on Null Rod numbers, but not much else.

[nataz]

I <3 Jens. To tell the truth, I'd rather have Jens MD then duplicant, and thats where I would start. Sure, duplicant will win you random games vs. Oath and DSC, but

a) you still have a terrible pre-board game against oath, Dupe or no Dupe
and
b) If a gifts player allows you to dupe a DSC you are either really lucky, or they are a terrible gifts player.

Between Tangle Wire and Dupe i'm pretty well convinced that you can make an I H8 oath SB that will more then outweigh the g1 losses you will take.

[benthetenor]

That's a really interesting thought. Tangle Wire is going to buy you as much time as it can against Oath, Duplicant or no Duplicant, so you might as well have a clock going. Then the board can be absolutely brutal.

At the same time though, dropping a creature for another, albeit slightly cheaper, creature doesn't substantially raise the clock. If you just straight up trade 2 for 2, then you're still going to see the same number of creatures per-game, with no increase in average power on the table (quite the opposite, usually). It's my opinion that there are too many lock cards in Uba Stax right now, and dropping some in favor of versatile creatures would be a better use of deckspace.

[Evenpence]

For the life of me I cannot fathom WHY you think Mana Drain is the only thing that can save a good Gifts player.

I never said this.

By cutting off Mana Drain, they have no accelerants, and need to build up to an enormous amount of lands to win

How many lands do they need to win? I would guess 3 would be about right. That casts Tinker and Rebuild. 4 is nice because it powers a Gifts, but you can win without ever casting Gifts, or only casting it after you have Rebuilt the board.

Casting a rebuild with only three lands is a HORRIBLE play and by no means outright wins the game under almost any circumstances.  (You've got to have multiple mana artifacts either in play or in hand and win the next turn).  If you don't, I can throw down all my locks next turn.  You need ALOT more than rebuild to win. (I.E., cards that win you the game).  Tinker doesn't win you the game either.  I can have active welder (most common), duplicant (less common), pyroblast (after sideboarding), or even maze of ith (very unlikely).

Although they have other accelerants, which you're completely right about, these accelerants are cut off by Ubastax, which was my point in making to JD. Null Rod, and Chalice for 0 (and if you really want to play it, 1), cut off the accelerants that Gifts has available to them. By cutting off Mana Drain, they have no accelerants, and need to build up to an enormous amount of lands to win, which is nigh impossible (JD! I love your terminology) with Smokestack / Crucible + Waste or Crucible + Strip).

I would completely agree that good Gifts players do NOT need Mana Drain to win in most cases. However, when all your accelerants have been stopped, it is sometimes the only thing that can save a good Gifts player.

I would completely agree with Randy, because he wasn't talking about the Stax matchup. Good players don't board out Mana Drains in the Stax matchup, either.

Just because you don't board a card out doesn't mean you need to have it to win. Gifts really can sit around on basic Island, and I think you vastly underestimate just how many problems basic Island causes for Uba Stax. Like, it's almost to the point of hilarity.

Honestly, I have no idea why you feel the need to talk down to me, and I'm beginning to get a bit annoyed at it.  I have played this deck for over six months.  I have won multiple pieces of power with this deck.  I have changed multiple pieces around in the deck before Vroman and other name players of the deck has, which they have shortly switched to afterwards, and have discovered Tangle Wire to be a good card in this deck.

I am well aware of the fact that basic island presents a problem for Ubastax.  The locks in Ubastax present a bigger problem for Gifts, however, which is why Vroman, myself, and other good Ubastax players have winning percentages against Gifts in tournaments.  Vroman and myself do not simply ride our technical knowledge of the deck to victory - sometimes, and even most times, the deck does it for us.

The fact that you seem to take a condescending tone with me when you went down to THREE BAZAARS in your version, frankly pisses me off, and while I know I won't stay that way, I find it a little laughable myself.

I honestly don't know if there's any room, which is obvious since I can't present a list. Any ideas? There's a bit of wiggle room on Null Rod numbers, but not much else.

Honestly, and this is going to be a theme of mine if people don't start listening up:  Write a damn list, and don't say stuff about how Tangle Wire is inferior to this card, or there isn't enough of a clock.  The fact is that stuff is just not cuttable to put in a 'descent' clock like Titan, aside Duplicant, which no one wants to cut.  A list with Titans instead of Duplicants is FINE, and no one has done it yet, which pisses me off that most of you will NEVER write lists out with Titan or other big beaters in it, even though it's OBVIOUS to some of us what to do.

If you want to add Titans into the deck, take Duplicants out.  They serve different purposes, but when you say Duplicant sucks, and Titan rocks, and you don't substitute them for one another, this makes you a bad deckbuilder, straight up.

I have experimented lists with Titan in them, and I have actually considered switching over to a 2 Titan build instead of 2 Duplicant build, it actually clears a ton of shit up, including the Gifts matchup, where Titan is usually much better, but can be randomly worse, like on resolved Tinker.

Basically, shut the hell up if you want to say something detrimental about the deck, like, "I really don't think this card is good," but are too lazy to figure out what could be better in it's place.  Also, don't cut a bazaar, for Vroman's sake.

It's my opinion that there are too many lock cards in Uba Stax right now, and dropping some in favor of versatile creatures would be a better use of deckspace.

Do some fucking work and write a decklist, so we can see how much better your version is than mine.  The only thing I've ever seen you do about my lists are complain.  You haven't made one innovation to modern Ubastax that I have ever seen, although you probably did help build the deck, which I commend you highly for.  I know you have ONE good finish under your belt, at least, which was 13th at Chicago (I believe).

Between Tangle Wire and Dupe i'm pretty well convinced that you can make an I H8 oath SB that will more then outweigh the g1 losses you will take.

Q.F.T.

My meta is 50% Oath, or thereabouts, and I win nearly every single game 2, and 3, and have a 40/60 shot winning game 1 (that is, me at 40) because of Chalice @ 2 + ways of keeping it around, or playing chalice @ 3 for Rushing River.  Post-board, I'm EASILY 70/30, probably 80-20.  I could get 10+ people to verify this.  (you can if you want).

I know the people who play Oath in my Meta, though, and will do stuff like play Chalice @ 2 on the play, game 1.  So, it's a little different, obviously.

EDIT:  I'm sorry for my tone taken in this post, it's really not characteristic of me, and I want you all to know that I'm not really that pissed off right now.  I'm drunk, and I just lost all my lower-tier trading shit, which was worth more than $200.  I think it's at the Applebees we went to tonight, so I'm going to go back and get it tomorrow, but I just want everyone to know that I'm not upset at them, I just get pissed off when people say, "Tangle Wire blows" and they don't say anything else.

If you are going to talk about how 'a card could be good' or, 'this card in the current build is bad' or something like that, POST A DECKLIST [not full, just like, standard 47, etc etc] telling what you're going to be taking out, and the advantageous/disadvantegous of late.  I've done the time to do so for you guys, please take the time to do so for me.

DOUBLE EDIT:  Again, I have to apologize about my tone in this post.  I try very hard not to infuriate people, or talk down to them, or just flat out tell them they're wrong, or stupid, or a bad deckbuilder, or anything like that.  Please, don't take offense to this post, especially you JD, as you know how much I've written about Belcher, and how I love the fact that you T4ed with this deck with virtually no playtesting, I'm very much impressed and in awe of your accomplishments with Vintage Magic, even though I disagree with you on a few things.  Ben, I'm sorry if I said, 'fucking do some work,' but I have been pissed off at some of your posts as of late, and instead of try to help you understand where I'm coming from, I'm just going to say how I feel, and hope that does something.  I haven't seen you try to help out the community one bit, and while I know it's not illegal or anything to only complain and never innovate, I get the feeling like you're just lazy.

Also, GIFTS PLAYERS:  PLEASE do not post on here saying that the matchup is in your favor.  If you want to make an arguement about how the matchup is EVEN, I'll listen, even though I do not believe it to be so.  If you have a favorable win percentage against any GOOD Ubastax players, please feel free to put in your advice, but as is, the matchup is almost universally unanimous in the Ubastax players favor, and many high-ranking TMDers see it this way (Thank you all, btw.)

THERE IS A THREAD TO TALK ABOUT THE UBASTAX vs. GIFTS MATCHUP.  Please use it if you want to talk about Gifts vs. Ubastax.

[Hydra]

I would completely agree that good Gifts players do NOT need Mana Drain to win in most cases.  However, when all your accelerants have been stopped, it is sometimes the only thing that can save a good Gifts player.

There you go, where you said it.  Before you said "you took it out of context", I've been arguing that a good Gifts player doesn't NEED accelerants period to get out of most locks UbaStax puts down as long as there's no relevant clock.  Mana Drain doesn't "save" Drain players, a stable land base does.

Secondly, if Vroman tells me HE has a good matchup against Gifts, then I'll assume VROMAN has a good matchup against Gifts.  This is what I call "Rich Shay Syndrome", which is when a player gets so experienced with their decks that they can claim good matches against the entire field because they can realistically outplay 99% of their opponents.  I accept such comments from Vroman because he's won multiple Black Lotuses as known tournaments against some of the best vintage players around.  I will NOT accept such comments from other people who don't have Vromam or Shay's resume to back up such claims, which is what you seem to expect when you claim a favorable matchup and seem surprised when the Gifts players all disagree.

[Klep]

I think we've all had enough of this.

-Klep