Need help with tuning r/g hate

[Blauw]

Hi Guys,
I need your advice on this deck. I played this deck a couple of weeks ago in a vintage tournament and became 3th. There were around 50 players and most decks were powered. The next tournament is in a couple of weeks so please help me tweak this deck so I might get even beter results. The meta of the tournament consists of stax, u/w fish, oath, gifts, welder etc. The top 10 players usually play full powered tier 1 decks. When you get in the top 8 without playing p9 you get your prices doubled. That's why I'll leave the power out this time. During the last tournament i only lost from a u/w fish deck :/ I think I don't have to explain this decklist. It is just hate against everything. I have some ideas for improvement myself and I would like your thoughts about it. Also other comments are very appreciated. My sideboard probably needs the most tuning.

My issues:
Put in treetop villages: It is slow but it beats the opponent

replace the shamans for goblin vandals: They might be better but don't do damage

Playing naturalize: It's a good card but it would probably replace creatures and I don't like decreasing number of creatures.

playing call of the herd: very mana intensively.

some other cards that might be good: scan-clan mauler, gruul guildmage, skyshroud elite, artifact mutation, grim lavamancer, cursed scroll

i like playing mogg maniacs but there are probably better cards.

Most problems occur when the opponent survives the first couple of turns by playing Bolts, Stp's etc.
Because I don't have any cards left in my hand after a few turns and I cannot keep pressure on my opponent.


Decklist:

Land:
1x PendelHaven
3x forest
3x mountain
4x wooded foothills
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Wasteland

Spells:
4x Land Grant
1x Lotus petal
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolts
4x Rancor

Creatures:
4x Granger Guildmage
4x River Boa
4x Kird Ape
3x Mogg Maniac
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x elvist Lyrist

Sideboard:
4x red elemental Blast
3x Hidden Guerrillas
4x hidden gibbons
4x tormod's crypt


Thanks for all advice and comments!
Blauw

[[supa_t(im)]]

I love R/G.  It isn't a bad deck in the right metagame, but it definitely has its limitations.

I've found that having more utility is more useful than having more burn, so
-4 chain lightning
+4 naturalize/artifact mutation (depending on if you face more Stax or Oath)

I also hate showing my hand to my opponent, especially since R/G is supposed to be a surprise deck in the early rounds, so
-4 Land Grant
+4 Elvish Spirit Guide
this gives you mana acceleration and decent beats if you need.  Speaking of mana, I would drop Pendelhaven, it seems to random and wastelandable, not to mention the ability doesn't seem that useful.

In terms of beatsticks, I've found that basking rootwalla + wild mongrel to be superior to river boa and anything else.  Not to mention mongrel can make use of dead cards, so
-4 river boa
-4 granger guildmage
+4 wild mongrel
+4 basking rootwalla

However, you still need some direct damage besides bolt, so
-3 Mogg Maniac
-1 Pendelhaven
+4 Grim Lavamancer
Will help the game vs Fish and welders.

Finally, since the deck doesn't have the broken mana acceleration available to it, you need some way to slow down your opponents, so
-4 elvish lyrist
+4 root maze
Slows down every deck with minimal effect to you.  It is especially good when you have an untapped wasteland to their tapped fetchland, and your gorilla shaman to their tapped moxen/lotus.

One last thing that I've found that helps is null rod, for obvious reasons.  However, the problem is finding room.  I've gone down to 3 rootwallas and 3 kird apes and up to 61 cards to fit 3 null rods maindeck.  If I wanted to go down to 60 I would drop a rancor since it is dependent on a creature being out, but I've found that the deck is so redundant that having 61 cards does not prevent you from drawing a threat when you need it.

This is my deck:

Mana 24
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures 18
3 Kird Ape
3 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman

Spells/Utility 19
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
4 Rancor
4 Naturalize

Sideboard 15
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Emerald Charm
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

ESG is listed under mana, but I hardcast her enough to be a beatstick as well.  That means only one creature less than your list (you mentioned not wanting to drop creatures).

I've been able to keep a winning record against Oath with the MD naturalize and SBed emerald charms (which are also useful against Dragon).  The deck attacks manabases pretty well, which helps the more difficult matchups like Oath.

This is just what I have found successful.  I wrote up a little something on my build here if you want to check it out.  I have some controversial card choices but R/G is a highly metagameable deck, and must be if it is to succeed.  Hope this helped some.

Peace

[Nastaboi]

Has anyone thought about Tin-Street Hooligan? He is like a two-mana Sex Monkey. Shaman is of course better, so he could go in in place of other beaters (Kird/Mongrel/Walla). Especially Rootwalla I don't like that much, but it enables 4th turn kill with just Mongrel and ESG, so maybe they should stay. Just an idea.

[Blauw]

I like some of your ideas. Here are my thoughts on your comments:

<quote>
I've found that having more utility is more useful than having more burn, so
-4 chain lightning
+4 naturalize/artifact mutation (depending on if you face more Stax or Oath)</quote>
I agree that utility might me better. Perhaps I should play Hull Breach instead of naturalize/artifactt mutation.


<quote>

-4 Land Grant
+4 Elvish Spirit Guide
this gives you mana acceleration and decent beats if you need.  Speaking of mana, I would drop Pendelhaven, it seems to random and wastelandable, not to mention the ability doesn't seem that useful.
</quote>
During the tournament I found out that the pendelhaven is indeed useless. I really like the land grants. They decrease the possibility of drawing land in a further stage of the game and showing your hand is not that important because usually you play al the cards within 2 turns. I like the idea of ESG for mana accelaration and beat down but I have to playtest it to see if it is good enough

<quote>

-4 river boa
-4 granger guildmage
+4 wild mongrel
+4 basking rootwalla

</quote>
I really like this idea...but I think it will only work when you also play grim lavamancer.
The granger is also really good against welder! But I'll try your idea.

<quote>

However, you still need some direct damage besides bolt, so
-3 Mogg Maniac
-1 Pendelhaven
+4 Grim Lavamancer
Will help the game vs Fish and welders.

</quote>
QFT!

<quote>

Finally, since the deck doesn't have the broken mana acceleration available to it, you need some way to slow down your opponents, so
-4 elvish lyrist
+4 root maze
Slows down every deck with minimal effect to you.  It is especially good when you have an untapped wasteland to their tapped fetchland, and your gorilla shaman to their tapped moxen/lotus.

</quote>
Root maze might be really good. I'm definately going to play it and see how usefull it is!

I like this new idea about r/g tempo but is seems less agressive then beatz. Here's a general idea of the meta (the asked 24 people what kind of deck they played) , maybe you can give me more detailed advice regarding my sideboard.

//Control\\
1 x 3C Control*
1 x UbaStax*
1 x Control Slaver*
3 x Oath*
2 x Psychatog**
1 x Stax
1 x 4C Control*
1 x Landstill

//Control/Aggro\\
2 x UW Fish**

//Combo/Control\\
1 x Salvagers Oath*
1 x Gifts

//Combo\\
1 x Doomsday*
1 x ‘Multiclass’ Tendrills*
1 x Eye of the Storm*
1 x Aluren

//Aggro\\
1 x Black Fish
1 x BW Pikula
1 x GW Beatdown
1 x Red
1 x Elves

* means full-powered

[zeus-online]

Hull breach seems pretty bad compared to naturalize and artifact mutation IMO....

Also, i cant see why playing 4 rancor is necessary, cut one or two...i am well aware of how good rancor can be, but i definetly think 4 is too many.

IMO rootwalla's are alot better then kird apes.....!

@ [supa_t(im)]:
is it worth running 4 gorilla shaman? Dont get me wrong, shaman is great, its just that the second one you draw is just a useless 1/1.

/Zeus

[Harlequin]

Hull breach is not really that great.  #1 its  sorcery, and #2 its like naturalize in that it can kill an artifcat or an enchantment.  Very rarely will you kill an enchantment + an actualy good bonus artifact, and even more rare will you kill an artifact and find that player has an enchant in play as well.

Theres no shame in running 2 Naturalize and 2 Artifact mutations on the sideboard.  Gives you a minor ammount of oath hate, plus 2 amazing cards against stax along with 2 great cards against stax.

I would definatly drop the chain lightnings.  Sorcery speed dirrect damage is almost worthless in type 1.  If you want to stick with dirrect damage, go with instant speed.  Choices include: Incinerate, Magma jet, Lava Dart, (seal of fire?).  Or go with some beater/pingers, like Grim lava mancer, Mog fanatic, Goblin Sharp Shooter.

[v4ino]

I love the elvish lyrist - especially in the sideboard if you wanted move them. I would suggest running 2 E. lyrist with 2 Druid lyrist just incase Oath is running P.Needle.

Fun and competative - Go R/G beats

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Nastoboi
I had thought of dropping rootwalla, but for goblin vandal.  It keeps the one drop and still helps vs artifacts.  However, I wanted the aggressiveness of rootwalla.  With vandal I'm sorta worried about too many critters that beat for 1.  I'm not a big fan of tin-street hooligan because he's a 2 drop going into a 1 drop spot, and for RGcc I'd rather run artifact mutation main.

@Blauw
Hull breach is bad for reasons already mentioned.

Land grant is just bad because showing your hand IS actually harmful. Would you land grant against Oath when you have naturalize in hand and expect them not to change their gameplan?  What happens if you have 2 wastelands in hand, wait 2 turns to cast grant?  I really, really dislike land grant.  But test and see for yourself.

Granger is good against welder, and I liked the idea when I saw it.  But, I think lavamancer is just better, and you should have no trouble getting fuel with or without mongrel.  That said, mongrel (with or without rootwalla) is an incredible addition to the aggressiveness of the deck.  I can't describe the usefulness of mongrel; he just seems to work so well.

Root maze is just good against everything (with possible exception to scrubs).  Gives you some game against Combo, and slows down control.  With your meta in mind, I definitely think it should be maindeck.  It might take some getting used to though, I'm not sure.

For a SB, I would definitely use some emerald charms (with MD naturalize, Oath seems to be the most prevalent deck in your meta).  Also, pyro pillar would be good against some blue based control and combo, against Gifts and Control slaver it can be killer.  REBs are always good.  Artifact mutation is good, but I'm not sure if there is enough Stax in the meta to warrant a whole bunch.  Some more burn in the SB wouldn't actually be bad with some of that aggro running around.  Maybe more red blasts because they take out 'tog and still help vs just about everything else competitive (sans stax).  Harlequin and v4ino have good ideas as well.

@zeus-online
3 rancor is definitely do-able.  It's good against everything, but really shines against a smokestack, and since his meta doesn't have a whole bunch, 3 is probably fine.  I wouldn't go under that because you do want to see one every game.

Kird apes are awesome.  I think he is better than rootwalla because he is more cost efficient.  Beating for 2 for only 1 red mana the entire game is better than beating for 3 for 2 mana every turn.  I still think the deck only has room for 3 though.

4 Gorilla shaman are a must IMO.  You want to see one every game, and you want to see them early.  Considering there is no draw engine having 4 is the only way to increase the chances of getting them.  Another warm body, even a 1/1, isn't really a bad thing.  Slap a rancor on him and he is quite the foe.  Don't underesimate the power of a couple of monkies.

[Khahan]

I've been toying w/ a r/g hate deck lately and I've found that, although Kird Ape is efficient 2/3 for R,  he's not the best in the deck.  A good R/G hate deck NEEDS utility out of every slot. The ape is simply a beater, nothing more, nothing less.

I would do -4 Kird ape
+4 Tin Street Hooligan. 

Hooligan beats for 2 just like ape (yes, I know he costs 1 more mana), but he also serves the purpose of artifact removal.  Lets face it. Aggro just doesn't win on its own. You need to optimize every single card slot. If have the choice between beating for 2 every turn (or possibly 1 if you hit an early wasteland!) or hitting for 2 every turn and killing an opposing artifact, guess what your deck needs to do. That's right.  Even if it costs 1 more.

And lets face it, for Hooligan to be optimal, you need a green source. For KA to be optimal, you need a forest. Yes, you can use 1 card (taiga) to satisfy both requirements for KA, but you simply get more bang for your buck from hooligan.

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Khahan
I do agree with you.  Maybe I'm just a bit nostaligic...

Tin street holigan does seem like a good addition.  I do like having a lot of one drops for first turn root maze + threat plays though.  I'll pick some up and throw them in anyway.

[Blauw]

Hi guys,

aaarghhh...I have been slaught during the tournament yesterday!!
I had no chance against most of the decks.
I lost from:
Wild Zombies (became the winner of the tournament) (powered) (2-0)
Affinity (full-powered) (2-0)
some land destruction deck (non-powered). I had no answer to his gigantic Terravores. (2-1)
Doomsday (went off two times in turn 2   ) (2-0)

R/G tempo seems to less agressive and didn't have answers to big creature



 

[warble]

If you have waste+strip in r/g hate you're going to lose.  It's too slow.  The decks you played against have fast tempo and will eventually win against you, your only advantage was surprise and a 4-turn clock that can't be disrupted by the normal suite of disruption.

-Wasteland
-Strip Mine
-Lyrist
-Land Grant
-Mogg Maniac
-River Boa

All cards listed are sub-optimal for r/g hate.  I wish you'd look around the forums for other threads of r/g hate, I'm sure I've posted on at least 20 by now with somewhat of the same feedback.  You need a fast clock, you need early disruption, and you need early conditional answers.  My suite of disruption is
Tormod's Crypt (you would have aced zombies, made the doomsday match playable)
Rack and Ruin (you would have aced affinity)
Red Elemental Blast (help with affinity and any powered deck)
Null Rod (affinity sux ballls and Doomsday pees it's pants)

In addition to this, because I don't run weak creatures and waste+strip my clock is faster, so that unpowered land destruct terravore deck would be raced veeeeeeeery easily by r/g.  My burn would toast his small guys and if he tried to get them big it would take too long.  Yes, I also run more burn than you including ghitu slinger.  And you don't have fireblast so you obviously have a clock that's slower.

The main issue with your deck is twofold.  First, you have no consistent clock.  Second, your disruption is nonexistent.  Both of those point to your results and say "read the other threads instead of starting your own r/g beats thread"  But I digress.

Edit:  FYI my favorite turn 4 play is lightning bolt, kindle for 3, chain lightning, double fireblast.  Otherwise known as "as broken as r/g gets"  Also, your statement
"showing your hand is not that important because usually you play al the cards within 2 turns"
just doesn't work for me.  My green skullclamp deck?  Maybe.  But not r/g hate.

[Blauw]

I played the following decklist:

Mainboard:
4x root maze
2x Hidden Gibbons
2x chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x rancor
3x river boa
4x kird ape
4x wild mongrel
3x elvish spirit guide
3x tin street hooligan
3x gorilla shaman
3x forest
4x taiga
3x Mountain
4x wooded foothills
1x bloodstained mire
1x lotus petal
4x Wasteland
1x strip Mine

Sideboard:
4x pyrostatic pillar
4x naturalize
4x red elemental blast
3x Elvish lyrist

I really like the hooligans! They are awesome! I also experienced that root maze and wasteland/strip mine were not optimal.
I found these cards not very usefull. Also mainboard hidden giibons were not a succes
I'll try to find other r/g decklist and compare them.
What are your opinions about root maze and strip effects? They seem to slow me down more then my opponent.

[[supa_t(im)]]

A couple problems with the deck that probably made you lose:
1) No null rod.  This is a key part of your disruption, and you NEED it in the deck if you plan on playing powered players.

2) 5 fetchlands with root maze.  Root maze is awesome, it slows your opponent down without hindering you much if you play it right (which shouldn't be hard).  However, having more than 4 fetches means you will be screwing yourself more than you need to.

3) Inconsistent threats (IMO).  You don't need hidden guys, or river boas, or chain lightnings.  You'd be better off with naturalizes/artifact mutations and null rods.  You can't tutor for anything, so try to make as many things 4 ofs as possible.  I think throwing in 2 ofs really lowers the consistency of the deck and (in my experience) makes it harder to draw what you need.

As far as root maze and strip effects go, I think they are a necessity.  The deck should be able to function on 1-2 land (another reason I like kird ape -- 1 drop) and nuking the lands of your opponent should be much more detrimental to them than you not having 1 more mana.  As for root maze, the card is needed to help against combo, as well as slowing down the tempo of every single other deck.  It delays shops, zaars, academies, libraries, and barbarian rings for at least a turn (not to mention all land in general, but those make a bigger effect than just 1 mana).  Imagine dropping a root maze turn one, followed by their tapped shop and moxen, followed by one of your threats (since you WILL have a 1drop or an elvish spirit guide in hand).  You are in a pretty good position.

Against Wild Zombies, maze and strips should have helped against the bazaar, although this would have been tough because they are a better aggro deck.

Against affinity gorilla shaman, tin street hooligan, and SBed naturalizes should have wrecked them.  Unless they run darksteel citadel, mox monkey eats all of their lands.  It seems strange to me that you lost this one.  Also, root maze makes even their creatures come into play tapped, so you should have been laying on the beats.  Of course, you needed null rod but hindsight is 20/20.

Against scrubs R/G Tempo isn't all that great.  Especially land destruction.

Against doomsday, you really should have been fine with root maze, then pillar from the side.  Strips are awesome here as well since they require a bit of mana before they can go off.  Null rod would have been good here as well.

Basically, R/G Tempo isn't a bad deck (for budget) it just needs to be in the right metagame, and it doesn't seem like you have the best metagame for it.  However, you can definitely change a couple things to better suit your meta since the deck is so flexible.

@warble
I disagree with just about everything.  Waste + strip is awesome and one of the deck's strong points.  If you are playing a bunch of burn you will end up out of gas really quickly and without potent disruption like root maze and strips, you won't have time to recover.

Null rod + crypt = cry.
Artifact mutation > rack and ruin.
REB = SB/meta dependent card.

A faster undisrupted clock means nothing.  Your opponent WILL be doing something to stop you, and even with a faster clock, theirs are going to be faster.  Tempo creating disruption like root maze and null rod is the only way you are going to have a chance to win.

[warble]

Root maze is awesome, it slows your opponent down without hindering you much if you play it right (which shouldn't be hard)

As far as root maze and strip effects go, I think they are a necessity.  The deck should be able to function on 1-2 land.

Against Wild Zombies, maze and strips should have helped against the bazaar, although this would have been tough because they are a better aggro deck.

@warble
I disagree with just about everything.  Waste + strip is awesome and one of the deck's strong points.  If you are playing a bunch of burn you will end up out of gas really quickly and without potent disruption like root maze and strips, you won't have time to recover.

Null rod + crypt = cry.
Artifact mutation > rack and ruin.
REB = SB/meta dependent card.

A faster undisrupted clock means nothing.  Your opponent WILL be faster.

Great discussion, I think you have some excellent points but I'd love to add what my experience tells me about r/g and it's capabilities.  Unfortunately I have meetings all day today, but I'll try to respond by around 4pm.  The core argument I will present is that null rod in conjunction with Tormod's Crypt is actually an excellent play against many decks.  I will also argue that the benefit of early land disruption is twofold and therefore hinders your deck to such an extent that your previously favorable matches will instead become unfavorable (wild zombies would be one great example here).  Time to write up documents and plan other peoples' jobs.  Mmmmm mid level management.

[[supa_t(im)]]

@warble
Well, I'll respond fully when you get to all of your points, but I just wanted to point out that most other aggro decks (Wild Zombies included) are going to beat R/G, unless it is specifically designed to do well against them (which is definitely possible).

Early wastes are good against just about everything.  The effect is two fold and I'm not arguing against that.  I'm arguing that the effect on you is negligible if you can cut them off three mana, or a draw engine, or a win condition with only one card.  That saves your butt more times than "faster" beats.  Because if they get their workshop, or bazaar, or barbarian ring, you are more likely to lose before your beats can get through.

That was just to clarify my arguments, I eagerly await your response.   

[warble]

Well, my meetings are now until 5pm but I'm going to type this in before my next meeting.  Haha, productivity in big companies sucks because of ME!!!!!

@warble
unless it is specifically designed to do well against them

I'm arguing that the effect on you is negligible if you can cut them off three mana, or a draw engine.  That saves your butt more times than "faster" beats.  Because if they get their workshop, or bazaar, or barbarian ring, you are more likely to lose before your beats can get through.

I think this is the key flaw with r/g beats.  The clock has to tick every turn.  Whether that is a mana drop, ramping you up to that fireblastx2 lightning bolt kindle, or getting your mana ramped up for gorilla shaman so they won't try to drop mana + gifts and you can't destroy all their fast mana.  Plopping down another mountain while I hold fireblast gives me options.  Getting enough for a null rod drop plus naturalize...SO key.  You don't get all that mana acceleration, but you get cards in exchange that can balance the equation.  The thing is, you need conditional answers early.  Waste and Strip and Root Maze don't let you answer what you need to, and if your clock is ticking you just won't get to the late game (which is as you know the objective.  There is no long game for r/g hate, and reducing your opponent to topdeck answers is as good as it gets)

Let's look as an example wild zombies.  I believe that wild zombies has a fast clock, but it also relies heavily on hand disruption and inevitability(here I am not experienced so forgive my assumption).  When we run naturalize and tormod's crypt and artifact hate (in case you have to blow your own null rod, sucks, but happens) we do what we can to keep that clock from ticking correctly.  Throwing our cards into their gears is what we accomplish.  Sure, they have creatures, we have creatures, we have to burn some, we have to make interesting decisions, but we have a game plan.  Flawed or not, we have a mechanism for winning with hate cards in there because we don't simply accept "stunted growth" we expect to fully hate out their mechanics.  If there's a new mechanic, draw power or win condition or whatnot, we need that answer in the deck if we expect to play against the new mechanic.  And we always, always use the most recent mechanics to most effectively hate out anyone who isn't up-to-date on deckbuilding.  The saving grace is much of that hate is burn, so as a "last resort" we use this, and inevitability comes from the accumulation of this specific form of hate.

When you say "oh no they have a bazaar" they say "oh no they have maindeck tormod's crypt"  When you say "oh no they're playing combo" you plop down your gorilla shaman and make them dedicate to a turn.  You make them hold back, and then punish them because your clock was faster then they ever knew r/g could be.  Yes, this loses games.  It also wins games, however, and the fact that you can go 70/30 against some powerful decks is why you're playing r/g hate.  You trounce decks that otherwise cannot be trounced, because they can't have been expecting your deck and you absolutely knew they were playing theirs.

Null rod + crypt = cry.

You have artifact hate, and if you're not using on their cards it's perfectly fine to burn the null rod against, say, dragon.  When it does come into play odds are you've played incorrectly.  The one time out of twenty they do have dissynergy you curse, but null rod works in uba stax, rod should be more than capable of carrying it's weight here.

Artifact mutation > rack and ruin

Yes and no.  Early disruption, remember?  Personally, I run more rack and ruin maindeck than artifact mutation, but do run one artifact mutation.  I need to know my deck isn't drawing dead against a resolved colossus.  But I don't want that answer as much as I do rack and ruin.  If there is a single artifact threat and it's not a colossus, I'm always happy to wait for another and two-for-one it.  Your call what you tweak here, but rack and ruin is powerful.  Maybe you run more gorilla shamans than me.

REB = SB/meta dependent card.

REB = maindeck in the northeast.  People own power.  People also get 10 proxies.  Maybe I consider it more important to win against a powered deck than an unpowered deck.  Maybe my comment from my meta is inapplicable (perfectly possible).  Meta dependent cards in r/g hate?  you jest!  Just kidding.  If five to ten cards in your deck aren't pure hate, you are seriously overvaluing the engine that r/g provides.

A faster undisrupted clock means nothing.  Your opponent WILL be faster.

Exactly why you need to improve your clock to something decent.  When I goldfish my r/g deck and it wins on turn 4 I'm happy, turn 5 I'm not mad, but turn 6 and beyond I'm seriously looking at the deck going "did I shuffle?  are the cards stuck together?  did I drop something?"  I mean, DUDE.  You ran an aggro deck and it didn't do it's thing.  It's like control slaver without thirst for knowledge.  It's like worldgorger dragon without bazaar of baghdad.  It's oath without forbidden orchard.  R/g beats without the beats and burn...pashaw!  Priorities are not disruption then clock, it's clock then "what can I fit in here".  If you remove a card or two, you re-test the deck.  The clock is touchy, no it's more than touchy.  It's like, touchy feely or something.  When I was losing because my opponent was at 3 life every game, I didn't give up, I increased the clock and tweaked my maindeck disruption.  That's what r/g loves, is attention, because r/g has the cards but it doesn't have the deckbuilders.

Okay I have typed as fast as my little 100wpm fingers can type, and I seriously need to prepare for my meetings.

[einlanzer625]

what about something like ground seal??

[[supa_t(im)]]

@warble
Okay, I see the problem here.  We both want a fast clock, yet are approaching it in two different ways.  You seem to add more burn and less disruption hoping that you will draw enough burn to beat the opponent before they beat you.  What I want to do is increase the clock as well, but I don't add more burn, I add more disruption.  More disruption DOES increase the clock, not because you are physically winning faster, but because strips and root maze act as multiple time walks that let you put the beatdown unhindered more turns.

Wild Zombies uses life from the loam, squee, and bazaar of baghdad to get massive card advantage and win through lots of zombies via zombie infestation and other cards like wild mongrel.  The only way to beat the deck would be to turn off its draw engine, and wastelands are the best way to do that.

Turn 4 is the typical win turn for an aggro deck, but that doesn't help you when gifts, and any drain based combo deck can go off turn 3.  But what happens when root maze comes down?  It slows them down for at least a turn, which actually gives you a better chance of beating them since in essence you just increased your own clock on them.  Gifts needs a helluva lot of mana, and nuking any mana producing thing possible also gives you more time to beat them.

Against Dragon, root maze shuts down their combo.  What more could you ask for?  Against Stax, the deck plays high costed artifacts up the wazoo, slowing down mana development is key.

I don't know, our experiences are different, and we aren't going to settle this by talking theory.  So, in conclusion, there are two different view points on how R/G should be built.

[warble]

@warble
Turn 4 is the typical win turn for an aggro deck, but that doesn't help you, there are two different view points on how R/G should be built.

I'm not certain you can viably construct a prison r/g deck.  The only viable time walk in r/g is seed.  It's an actual time walk.  Why would I play roots when I can play seed?  Okay, counterspells, but I mean...what you are saying is you improve un-winnable matchups.  Now dragon draws when root is out instead of winning, then plays another game and another game until it wins one and continues drawing.  Dragon is perfectly capable of drawing when it doesn't win, especially since you don't put creatures in your graveyard.  And I swear the best thing that you can do against Gifts is to put a fast clock and artifact hate out there.  Blow up their mana base with root and waste+strip?  Sure, it's going to work but you'll concede those extra turns that they will use to kill you.

Let me pose an easy question to answer.  Can your deck feasibly win on turn 4?  Can it feasibly win on turn 5?  I sincerely doubt either answer is yes.  It's the fact that you want this "prison control" that stax has, but unfortunately haven't got the mana and hence threats to support that.  Stax works off the base because it has fast mana ignoring land drops.  FCG works off that base because it combos out faster than mcdonalds.  But nothing in r/g suggests that it can support that.  Nothing, no theory, no experience, only "insight" which happens to be flawed.

Let me ask another easy question.  If my r/g deck plays your r/g deck which deck wins?  If mine plays a fish deck, or yours plays a fish deck, which deck wins?  FCG, STAX, CS, MUC, wild zombies, where are you justifying the cards you want to include?  Please don't tell me to playtest your build, if you can't improve matchups and the only matchup you hope to improve is already drawing dead if you can't win by turn 4, you can't say your answers are answers.  "Look I slowed down Gifts" when you don't have a ticking clock is not "look I won against Gifts"  The fundamental flaw is your clock, if ya ain't got none, ya better get some.

One more note, I notice you advocate 4x gorilla shaman.  Have you got any idea how much that limits the versatility of the deck?  *gripe*

[[supa_t(im)]]

Okay, nowhere did I say I'm not advocating a clock.  Nowhere did I say I wanted R/G to become prison.  I'm saying that you use disruption combined with a fast clock.  However, that fast clock should not consist of burn cards that make you run out of gas.

Wild mongrel, basking rootwalla, kird ape, rancor.  These cards give me a fast clock (lavamancer and shaman beat as well, and you shouldn't underestimate those extra few points of damage).  Yes I can conceivably win turn 4.  Yes, I can consistently win turn 5.  Will your deck beat mine, possibly, but not because my strategy is flawed, because my deck is not metagamed against aggro (I have a R/G build that is, and it does have more burn in it).  My deck HAS beaten Fish, it HAS beaten Stax, it HAS beaten Gifts, and it HAS beaten Oath.  Can we stop yelling now?

The deck does not seek to lock the opponent, it seeks to stall the opponent so that they don't win, meanwhile putting them on a fast clock.  If all you do is aim at the head they will have no trouble comboing the turn before you go lethal.  If they have to worry about manabase disruption then they can't easily go off and your fast clock actually has time to work.  Your strategy can, and does work against Slaver (as does mine) but Grim Long, Gifts, Dragon, Oath, these decks will not care if you have a 4 turn clock, their clock will be faster.

However, you say you include REB, Tormod's crypt, and null rod, which are all disruption cards.  So this leads me to believe that we are not arguing the ends, but actually the means.  Null rod we agree on.  REB should at least be in the SB, so we agree there as well.  Crypt I just can't see with null rod.  Your deck runs crypt, mine runs root maze, same ends, different means.

As for gorilla shaman, having a shaman out in a powered environment is just plain good, and without a draw engine you aren't going to have one as much as you'd want with less than 4.

This deck should beat Stax either way because Stax doesn't like dudes, and that is what we play.  Goblins is an aggro deck whose clock is going to be faster than even your deck even without the rare combo win, so I don't understand bringing that up helps.

[forests failed you]

I have a few suggestions if you are interested. 

Firstly, I really like the idea of playing with Tin Street Goblin.  That seems really strong.  The ability to hit an opponents random Moxen or even Crucibles or Smokestacks against Stax is good.

As for the creature base I really like some of the cards you are using but I think that there are others that could be improved upon.  I really like Gorilla Shaman, Tin Street, and Kird Ape.  All of those guys are great.  However, there is an Elf from Saga block that I can't remember the name of that could be good too.  He is a one one for Green, that gets plus one plus two if your opponent controls a non basic.  I think he mght be worth testing.

The main thing I notice about your list is that it needs more disruption.  Or rather, cards that stop an oppoent from jsut beating you with Will or Tinker, or comboing off with tendrils.  Root maze has already been suggested and it is good because it stops will and it also randomly hoses dragon.  Also, I think that some combination of Null Rod and Rootmaze belng here.

My last suggestion is:  and I don't think that I've seen it here thus far, is to play Artifact Mutation in the sideboard against artifact decks.  It seems particularly strong in a deck like this.

I don't really like the Chain Lightning that much, as it is situational and isn't an instant.  You might consider playing something else in its place.  Grim Lavamancer.

Has anybody tested the RG bloodthirst guy who becomes a three three?  he seems like he might be okay, But I'm not sure.

[Revvik]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=32137

Skyshroud Elite, from Exodus.  Jeez, get your crappy never-used uncommons right?

[forests failed you]

THAT CARD IS NOT CRAPPY!!!!!!

It was awesome in my extended stompy deck three years ago with Vine Dryad!!!!

Vine Dryad = Crappy.
Skyshroud Elite =  Awesome.

[dad]

First a general question:  I understood RG Beatz to be an aggro deck with versatility.  Isn't a RG 'Tempo' deck really just RG 'Fish'?  I mean, they seem philosophically similar (within the constraints of their colors).

Considering your meta, have tried Bloodmoon (or perhaps Choke)?

[[supa_t(im)]]

First a general question:  I understood RG Beatz to be an aggro deck with versatility.  Isn't a RG 'Tempo' deck really just RG 'Fish'?  I mean, they seem philosophically similar (within the constraints of their colors).

Actually, yes.  But it always seems that people don't like to make that distinction.  Its always seemed to me that the natural progression of R/G Beatz was Tempo.  I guess I'm in the minority.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Has anyone tried CotV instead of Root Maze?  It seems like it might be a more effective way to keep Colossus off the table. 

[Disburden]

Has anyone tried CotV instead of Root Maze?  It seems like it might be a more effective way to keep Colossus off the table. 

Chalice seems bad since you would only cast it for zero. Anything other than that would affect the way you play your creatures .

Chalice at one would suck, so would chalice at two. Chalice at three is just unlikely to happen. While this is happening you should be casting beaters after Null Rod and Rootmaze, not chalices that cost 3-4 mana for you.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Has anyone tried CotV instead of Root Maze?  It seems like it might be a more effective way to keep Colossus off the table. 

Chalice seems bad since you would only cast it for zero. Anything other than that would affect the way you play your creatures .

Chalice at one would suck, so would chalice at two. Chalice at three is just unlikely to happen. While this is happening you should be casting beaters after Null Rod and Rootmaze, not chalices that cost 3-4 mana for you.

Truthery.

I've tried chalice with vials but what ended up happening was less disruption and more cards that don't do a whole lot.  With chalice, if you plan on setting it on anything other than 0 you need vial, but then you can't run another slot of disruption, like null rod (which helps against other things besides moxen).  It seemed to weaken the deck and never worked right.

Besides, with 4 gorilla shaman, getting rid of moxen shouldn't be a problem.

As much as I like R/G, I think people should keep in mind that it probably isn't the best deck to take to a tournament with more than 5 rounds.  After all, R/G is more or less a hate deck, and when you have to battle through eight rounds you are going to get paired up against something that you can't hate (random aggro for instance).  R/G is for specific metagames where you know there won't be much variation in decks, and you know what is played.  For example, I played a R/G variant (not the one I posted, it was changed to fit the metagame, which was aggro, bad combo, and Oath) at my local meta for 4 rounds and came in first, defeating a bad combo deck, a metagame prison deck, MUC, and Oath.  It CAN be effective in smaller metagames.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Notably, Null Rod costs mana.  Chalice for 0 costs 0.  Mana equates to tempo. 

Using Mox Monkey to keep Moxen off the table doesn't work because a smart player will just hold the Mox until he's ready to Tinker.

To me, at least, it seems like the only other options for dealing with the possibility of a quick Colossus are Goblin Welder, Artifact Mutation, and Red Blasting the Tinker that finds the DSC.