Jester's Cap in Ubastax I.E., the card that got me two T8s at Richmond.

[Disburden]

Adding to what DiceMan said about Null Rod. Why did you cut it? For a faster clock and to use Caps? I, personally, have always loved cap. With that said though, I think the deck now suffers from it's former best weapon:

Null Rod.

Null Rod is game warping and probably the best mana denial in the format. How do you now get around the card you used to adore?

Cap can not be used with Rod in play
Either can Trike
Either can Karn.

What is your plan Vs. a deck that uses Null Rods main now? This is why a post eariler head the nail on the head. This isn't innovation, this is metagaming. You would run this list full of Vroman's uba stax and fish?

[benthetenor]

Jester's Cap was a good metagame call, what with the field being so full of combo of many different variants. Jester's Cap has been a beating since every deck has streamlined itself down to 1-2 win conditions.

That being said, I think you're taking Stax in a completely different direction. As Nataz said, I'm not sure what you gain by keeping a Stax shell, as you're basically trying to resolve Cap as fast as you can and autowin from there. Your playstyle, and consequently the changes that you've made to the archetype to better suit your playstyle, is not really in tune with the traditional Stax player. Is this a better Stax deck? You certainly got some results, but I'm going to have to say no. You cut the greatest lock piece in the deck for a combo-kill of your own, which does not jive with the philosophy of Stax. You certainly bashed combo, but Stax is supposed to do that anyway. (GWS I.T. is a completely different monster, having been built to thrive in a Workshop-heavy environment. I'm not sure what the foil is to I.T. yet, but all strategies have a foil.) Against the best players in the format, not having Null Rod is a liability, as was shown by your 2 Top 8's but 0 wins.

I would argue that the already insanely powerful shell of Stax allowed you to Top 8 both days; That if those Jester's Caps had been Null Rods, you would have won anyway. The fact that you Top 8-ed with Juggernauts in a Stax deck just furthers this point. Workshop + Juggernaut + Disruption = a beating, but that's been better developed in Workshop Aggro decks without the dead cards (strategically speaking) like Smokestack. I'd suggest you examine that route further.

Please, please don't take this post as an insult. You don't tend to like what I have to say, but I'm Just stating the facts. I've never played or even met you, but I'd say with 100% certainty that your playstyle is too aggressive for Stax, which will cost you wins against the top players in the field. Congrats on your two new pieces of power.

[Evenpence]

Thanks Ben, on the congrats.

As for the deck:  Both decks were complete metagame calls that paid off much more wonderfully than I expected.  Jester's Caps will probably not be run in the near future, as Gifts decks WILL most likely start running 4 win conditions, albeit I have no idea what.  As for Null Rod:  I saw that problem and had Shattering Spree in the sideboard for it.  Lyle had out a Null Rod which I Shattering Spreed, including his chalice for 0, so I could play Tormod's Crypt.

Ben, the decks that I played are not optimal for any means.  I have already said that I metagamed for the tournament because I know Ubastax so well, and can change the MD and SB to do well in any given enviroment, which means if you put me up against a field of I.T., I can do well with it, even if Eric Becker is 6-0 against Ubastax in tournaments, (I.E., Caps and Spheres MD).  I probably shouldn't have had Smokestack in the MD Day 1.

I would argue that the already insanely powerful shell of Stax allowed you to Top 8 both days; That if those Jester's Caps had been Null Rods, you would have won anyway. The fact that you Top 8-ed with Juggernauts in a Stax deck just furthers this point. Workshop + Juggernaut + Disruption = a beating, but that's been better developed in Workshop Aggro decks without the dead cards (strategically speaking) like Smokestack. I'd suggest you examine that route further.

I disagree completely.  Smokestack won me ONE GAME Day 1.  Jester's cap flat out won me six games Day 1, eight games Day 2.  It really is the card that won me the tournament, and without it I would have probably gone 0-2 drop.  Moreover, cards like Sphere of Resistance were worse than Force of Nature in my deck.

Against the best players in the format, not having Null Rod is a liability, as was shown by your 2 Top 8's but 0 wins.

...are you serious?  Not only did I win against Outlaw, LaPlante, RICH SHAY, and Lyle, but I played against an almost entirely unwinnable matchup BOTH days in the top 8.  I'm insulted that you would even insinuate that my playstyle (which got me to two top 8s by the way) would cost me games against 'name players'.  Neither DeMars nor my Day 2 Opponent in the Top 8 advanced farther than T4, so does that mean that they're bad players as well?

Anyway, thank you everyone on the congratulations, and I'll try to get the Day 2 listing of the tournament report done today.

[einlanzer625]

Thanks Ben, on the congrats.

As for the deck:  Both decks were complete metagame calls that paid off much more wonderfully than I expected.  Jester's Caps will probably not be run in the near future, as Gifts decks WILL most likely start running 4 win conditions, albeit I have no idea what.  As for Null Rod:  I saw that problem and had Shattering Spree in the sideboard for it.  Lyle had out a Null Rod which I Shattering Spreed, including his chalice for 0, so I could play Tormod's Crypt.

Ben, the decks that I played are not optimal for any means.  I have already said that I metagamed for the tournament because I know Ubastax so well, and can change the MD and SB to do well in any given enviroment, which means if you put me up against a field of I.T., I can do well with it, even if Eric Becker is 6-0 against Ubastax in tournaments, (I.E., Caps and Spheres MD).  I probably shouldn't have had Smokestack in the MD Day 1.

I would argue that the already insanely powerful shell of Stax allowed you to Top 8 both days; That if those Jester's Caps had been Null Rods, you would have won anyway. The fact that you Top 8-ed with Juggernauts in a Stax deck just furthers this point. Workshop + Juggernaut + Disruption = a beating, but that's been better developed in Workshop Aggro decks without the dead cards (strategically speaking) like Smokestack. I'd suggest you examine that route further.

I disagree completely.  Smokestack won me ONE GAME Day 1.  Jester's cap flat out won me six games Day 1, eight games Day 2.  It really is the card that won me the tournament, and without it I would have probably gone 0-2 drop.  Moreover, cards like Sphere of Resistance were worse than Force of Nature in my deck.

Against the best players in the format, not having Null Rod is a liability, as was shown by your 2 Top 8's but 0 wins.

...are you serious?  Not only did I win against Outlaw, LaPlante, RICH SHAY, and Lyle, but I played against an almost entirely unwinnable matchup BOTH days in the top 8.  I'm insulted that you would even insinuate that my playstyle (which got me to two top 8s by the way) would cost me games against 'name players'.  Neither DeMars nor my Day 2 Opponent in the Top 8 advanced farther than T4, so does that mean that they're bad players as well?

Anyway, thank you everyone on the congratulations, and I'll try to get the Day 2 listing of the tournament report done today.

Then maybe go to four caps, and remove the stax themselves altogether? id even go so far as if you arent using them to win games, and only as counter bait, to go ahead and remove them from the "needed 47"

Just a thought.

[Evenpence]

Nah.  I think the list is definitely right, it's just Smokestack didn't seem to be a factor Day 1 for some reason.  Gifts will start running 4 win conditions for sure (as well they should), and Smokestack is def. better against Gifts than Cap most of the time.  I like having both in there too.  Jester's Cap is also horrible against random jank aggro.

I was thinking about doing that exact thing Day 2, actually, and making them into Tangle Wires (the remainder of the things) but that puts me on too little win conditions myself (smokestack is a basically a win condition in the early game).  Vroman has PMed me saying that he doesn't really like Smokestack either, as it's only good on turn 1.  I agree.  I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I'm going to try to optimize Staxless Stax.  If that goes well, I can win maybe a piece of power in Rochester in July! 

[benthetenor]

Against the best players in the format, not having Null Rod is a liability, as was shown by your 2 Top 8's but 0 wins.

...are you serious?  Not only did I win against Outlaw, LaPlante, RICH SHAY, and Lyle, but I played against an almost entirely unwinnable matchup BOTH days in the top 8.  I'm insulted that you would even insinuate that my playstyle (which got me to two top 8s by the way) would cost me games against 'name players'.  Neither DeMars nor my Day 2 Opponent in the Top 8 advanced farther than T4, so does that mean that they're bad players as well?

Actually, I was insinuating that your card choices caused you to have weak matchups once you'd gotten through to the most difficult rounds in the tournament. The prize structure doesn't become ridiculous until you advance to the finals. Top 8ing is nice, but a win's a win. As a result, the best players are not the ones who can Top 8, but the ones who can win. That's why I said that your deck didn't have enough juice when facing the stiffest competition. Also, I never used the phrase "name players", because some of the best players in the format are unknown and a very few of the name players are just not that good, so I'm not sure why you put quotes around it.

But why are you shifting discussion away from your card choices? I assert that Null Rod is the greatest lock component available to Uba Stax, and that cutting it for anything is wrong. That was the point of the discussion, right? You did replace it with a card that can just win the game, but top-decking Jester's Cap when facing down a lethal Time Vault/Goblin Charbelcher/Mana Drain mana is absolutely terrible. There's a reason why it's so situational, and that's because it doesn't affect your board position in the least, save for getting rid of one of your own permanents. In Type I, the card is a wrecking ball, no question. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have flaws, and that doesn't mean it should be an auto-include into any deck that can support it. If you don't understand this, then I'm not really sure how you've come to be as good of a player as you obviously are.

Please don't ask for discussion and then bash people who choose to hold different opinions. Back your opinions up with fact/thought/logic, and you'll foster discussion. That is, if that was your original intent at all.

[yespuhyren]

Just as an update, my current list is



// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  Mountain
    4  Wasteland
    4  Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    3  Triskelion
    2  Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    4  Uba Mask
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Jester's Cap
    4  Tangle Wire

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Shattering Spree
SB: 3  Defense Grid
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1  Triskelion

[Evenpence]

Actually, I was insinuating that your card choices caused you to have weak matchups once you'd gotten through to the most difficult rounds in the tournament. The prize structure doesn't become ridiculous until you advance to the finals. Top 8ing is nice, but a win's a win. As a result, the best players are not the ones who can Top 8, but the ones who can win. That's why I said that your deck didn't have enough juice when facing the stiffest competition. Also, I never used the phrase "name players", because some of the best players in the format are unknown and a very few of the name players are just not that good, so I'm not sure why you put quotes around it.

Ben.  You don't even know what went on during the games.  I was quickly trounced Day 2 in the Quarterfinals because I was playing Ubastax, period.  There is absolutely no viable card choice that could have gotten me to the Top 8 that would have helped me out against my opponent's draws.  As for DeMars, I could have won game 2 had I chosen Duplicant instead of Slaver.  I didn't think about it hard enough, and wasn't playing UbaCap long enough to realize that you take out Duplicant, just like I didn't realize that you should take Flame Fullisade, Wish, and Colossus, until Joe Davis just said something.

But why are you shifting discussion away from your card choices? I assert that Null Rod is the greatest lock component available to Uba Stax, and that cutting it for anything is wrong. That was the point of the discussion, right? You did replace it with a card that can just win the game, but top-decking Jester's Cap when facing down a lethal Time Vault/Goblin Charbelcher/Mana Drain mana is absolutely terrible. There's a reason why it's so situational, and that's because it doesn't affect your board position in the least, save for getting rid of one of your own permanents. In Type I, the card is a wrecking ball, no question. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have flaws, and that doesn't mean it should be an auto-include into any deck that can support it. If you don't understand this, then I'm not really sure how you've come to be as good of a player as you obviously are.

...  Ben, I've already argued this hundreds of times.  I love Null Rod, and think it's absurdly strong.  I actually remember getting into an argument with you early on in the Ubastax thread when you said that some of my choices were wrong.  Frankly, if all my choices are so wrong, let's see you post a decklist that's better, oh, AND win with it.  I got pissed off at you on the UbaWire thread because you're constantly complaining and never innovating.

Please don't ask for discussion and then bash people who choose to hold different opinions. Back your opinions up with fact/thought/logic, and you'll foster discussion. That is, if that was your original intent at all.

I'll back them up with wins.  I'm creating this thread to talk about Jester's Cap and Null Rod, and the benefits/detriments of cutting/adding in one or the other.  In the metagame right now, obviously Jester's Cap is the way to go, as there were no Null Rods in the top 8 either day (I believe).  While it is very strong, the meta has adjusted to get around it, by either running rituals (i.t.) or by having lots of MD bounce (LaPlante).  Please argue YOUR points with fact/thought/logic instead of just critising the choices I make everytime I come out with a new list.

EDIT:

Yespuhyren's List

That list looks really good, Yesphuyren.  I'm going to playtest it a bit.  I really like the huge amount of disruption and the little amount of Stax.  I'm also a big fan of the double Karn.

[benthetenor]

Please argue YOUR points with fact/thought/logic instead of just critising the choices I make everytime I come out with a new list.

I assert that Null Rod is the greatest lock component available to Uba Stax, and that cutting it for anything is wrong. That was the point of the discussion, right? You did replace it with a card that can just win the game, but top-decking Jester's Cap when facing down a lethal Time Vault/Goblin Charbelcher/Mana Drain mana is absolutely terrible. There's a reason why it's so situational, and that's because it doesn't affect your board position in the least, save for getting rid of one of your own permanents. In Type I, the card is a wrecking ball, no question. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have flaws, and that doesn't mean it should be an auto-include into any deck that can support it. If you don't understand this, then I'm not really sure how you've come to be as good of a player as you obviously are.

If you're not interested in any opinions but your own, then please don't ask for a discussion.

[yespuhyren]

IF you are topdecking Null rod the turn before goes lethal you are just getting lucky.  Jester's Cap is for the pre-emptive strike. 

Caps and Rods both have strengths and weaknesses.  We know this.  We know sometimes one is better than another.  There reason I wanted caps instead is because it has been performing better for me in a lot of the matchups.  I am not saying this to be rude, but do you play the deck?  I ask, because I immediately found the Cap to be more effective than the Rod in my testing, and it only took about 3 games of playing for Colby to decide he loved the caps.  He was playing original Uba Stax with Rods, and it wasn't an issue winning.  Obviously its not always better. 

It does, however have the added benefit of being able to play Trikes for pinging weenies/shamans and Karns for popping moxes and smashing face FTW.

On another note, the Official thread for the Staxless version, The Jester, is posted here :

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27672.0

[benthetenor]

I don't currently play anything, as I'm away at school and there's not exactly anything even remotely close to competition around here. I do goldfish whenever I get bored, but a deck like Stax doesn't really lend itself to goldfishing. This changes during the summer months and during winter break, but just because I can't test out the new hotness doesn't mean that I don't know how a Stax deck operates. Jester's Cap simply does not fit with the slow, steady and ridiculously powerful control game that Stax plays, and while adding it in will win you games, it won't dig you out of a hole if you're in trouble, nor will it create any kind of lock against some decks.

There are benefits to not playing with Null Rods, but there are significant disadvantages to those benefits as well. Karn is more expensive than Gorilla Shaman, even with MWS, and it's much harder to cast a ripped-off-the-top Karn than a Shaman, especially if you then want to decimate the opponent's board on the same turn. And if you've got your opponent locked down then a fast clock is not a necessity. Trike is largely replaced by all of the B. Rings. Not entirely, but once again it's easier to make a land drop than to play a 6cc guy, and it's even easier to dig for B. Ring than for Trike.

Jester's Cap is ridiculous against Combo, Oath and against some forms of Drain decks, but does nothing significant against Stax or Aggro decks. Null Rod is a bit better against CS and is better at actually stopping the Mana Drains, but also does very little against Stax or Aggro. But Null Rod does more against these decks than Jester's Cap. I'd rather not strengthen my already strong matchups at the cost of my weaker ones. Trike is good against Aggro, but so is Razormane Masticore, if you can work around the upkeep. When you're already boarding out Uba Masks, it's less difficult than you'd believe.

For this tournament, Evenpence ran into tons of Combo decks which only accentuated the impressiveness of Jester's Cap. I still posit that he would have won those games had he been running Null Rod rather than the Cap. He also went so far as to call his quarterfinals Gifts match-up "almost entirely unwinnable". Gifts is normally a good match. Not a blowout, but definitely not unwinnable. Null Rod does this. Against the decks that the best players are playing (the top 8 the first day was terrible for Evenpence, and the one the next day wasn't exactly great) Null Rod is better.

[yespuhyren]

An often overlooked advantage of Karn over Shaman is

A)  Karn isn't affected by Chalice @ 1
B)  Karn can be welded in if its killed
C)  Karn is harder to kill
D) Shaman is done for once its been pitched to bazaar.  Karn isn't

[Evenpence]

For this tournament, Evenpence ran into tons of Combo decks which only accentuated the impressiveness of Jester's Cap. I still posit that he would have won those games had he been running Null Rod rather than the Cap. He also went so far as to call his quarterfinals Gifts match-up "almost entirely unwinnable". Gifts is normally a good match. Not a blowout, but definitely not unwinnable. Null Rod does this. Against the decks that the best players are playing (the top 8 the first day was terrible for Evenpence, and the one the next day wasn't exactly great) Null Rod is better.

I ran into like, 3 combo decks.  My Quarterfinals match was against SLAVER, not Gifts.  Please get your facts straight.

[yespuhyren]

Evenpence - 1
Benthetenor - 0

 

Also, did you ever get to use a cap in a slaver matchup?  I wasn't sure how this would be, whether it was good, or just a stalling tactic.  I think it should be very strong if you can get their slaver(s) and something else like a trike/bus etc.

[Evenpence]

Yeah, I actually made a huge error in my game against Demars.  I took Welder/Welder/Slaver while he had a Welder in the yard instead of taking Welder/Welder/Duplicant.

If he didn't get a DT for the Yawg's Will (btw, I actually saw it as you put it back into your hand and flashed it to me, although you didn't realize it), I would have taken Slaver/Yawg Will/Duplicant probably, as I actually had to think, but because everything else was fairly even and whatnot, I did welder/welder/slaver.  I didn't have crucible out, although I did have like two b-rings and threshold, I spent one of them on his monkey, and he found Duplicant and swung in for the win Game 2.  I MIGHT have been able to win that game and game 3 had I chosen correctly.  In my very limited testing, Cap has been better than Rod against Slaver.

[yespuhyren]

It has been the same with me through my testing as well.  Don't forget, it was your first day of MD cappin', it takes some time to get used to it.  PM me later and lets see if we can come up with a shop aggro version of The Jester 

[nataz]

just thought i'd mention that if you remove null rod, Jar becomes pretty decent.

[benthetenor]

For this tournament, Evenpence ran into tons of Combo decks which only accentuated the impressiveness of Jester's Cap. I still posit that he would have won those games had he been running Null Rod rather than the Cap. He also went so far as to call his quarterfinals Gifts match-up "almost entirely unwinnable". Gifts is normally a good match. Not a blowout, but definitely not unwinnable. Null Rod does this. Against the decks that the best players are playing (the top 8 the first day was terrible for Evenpence, and the one the next day wasn't exactly great) Null Rod is better.

I ran into like, 3 combo decks.  My Quarterfinals match was against SLAVER, not Gifts.  Please get your facts straight.

Fine. Slaver is still far from unwinnable. A tier 1 deck like Uba Stax should (and does) have 0 unwinnable matchups. Null Rod is particularly good against CS, no matter how well prepared they are for you. And seriously, 3 Combo decks is a lot considering that the archetype has been severly underrepresented through the last year and a half.

[forests failed you]

CS - 7/10
Hit for

Slaver
Crucible/Pentavus
Trike

But for the love of god, never ever ever leave them with a fearsome six costed two four to beat down with.

It was fun playing you in the top eight.  The caps are a nice addition to the deck, nice play.

[Evenpence]

Fine. Slaver is still far from unwinnable. A tier 1 deck like Uba Stax should (and does) have 0 unwinnable matchups. Null Rod is particularly good against CS, no matter how well prepared they are for you. And seriously, 3 Combo decks is a lot considering that the archetype has been severly underrepresented through the last year and a half.

A)  You have no idea how the games played out.  For you to say that Null Rod would have won me matchups is absurd, as in the Day 2 Top 8 Quarterfinals, I never even saw Jester's Caps, which is what I took Null Rod out for.
B)  I wasn't playing Ubastax, I was playing UbaCap.
C)  You've never even playtested the deck, how would you know if it has unwinnable matchups or not?
D)  Slaver IS almost an unwinnable matchup.  Unless I get perfect hands (I.E., my games against Rich Shay) I can't win that matchup.
E)  For the amount of Combo that was present at Richmond, running into only 3 combo matches over the course of 15 rounds in the swiss is really NOT that much.  That is, SIX games out of FORTY I played against Combo.

For this tournament, Evenpence ran into tons of Combo decks which only accentuated the impressiveness of Jester's Cap. I still posit that he would have won those games had he been running Null Rod rather than the Cap.

See A.  In many of my games, I played a first turn cap and activated the cap on turn two.  I activated cap first turn once or twice.  Please tell me how you have such omniscient knowledge as to how you could possibly know if I was going to win that game if that cap were a null rod instead.

Jester's Cap simply does not fit with the slow, steady and ridiculously powerful control game that Stax plays, and while adding it in will win you games, it won't dig you out of a hole if you're in trouble, nor will it create any kind of lock against some decks.

Karn and Trike dig you out of holes.  That's why they're in there.  The fact that you think that Jester's Cap adds to some kind of lock shows your ignorance about the deck.  I've been saying this for a while, but you might not have been paying attention:  Jester's Cap is like a super-mindslaver.  It costs less to cast, less to activate, and outright, downright wins games here and now, leaving NO ability to come back from it if everything goes according to plan (which it did for me in every game that I actually activated cap).  I didn't achieve hard locks on anyone but Outlaw, LaPlante and Rich Shay (not even really that) to actually win games.  I instead played a more Workshop Aggro game, allowing me to get out fatties for pressure, forcing them to do stuff they didn't want to do, then I dropped a Cap and won, or I just dropped a cap early and won like that.

But aside that, your argument isn't even valid, as Null Rod won't pull you out of a hole either.

Against the decks that the best players are playing (the top 8 the first day was terrible for Evenpence, and the one the next day wasn't exactly great) Null Rod is better.

Oh, you must mean the other 4 decks in the Top 8 which UbaCap had RIDICULOUS matchups against, or perhaps you meant Day 2, where FIVE of the decks in the Top 8 were almost byes for me, but I just happened to get paired up against a matchup that was nearly unwinnable.

[dicemanx]

Oh, you must mean the other 4 decks in the Top 8 which UbaCap had RIDICULOUS matchups against, or perhaps you meant Day 2, where FIVE of the decks in the Top 8 were almost byes for me, but I just happened to get paired up against a matchup that was nearly unwinnable.

You constantly think in absolutes - I would hardly think you had "ridiculous" matchups against the non-CS decks, and by the same token I dont see why you give up on the CS match up as hopeless. You make that assessment in part after two events and on the strength of the two main deck Caps day 2? The concept of UbaCap does indeed push it to new extremes, but any Uba deck will never be a picture of consistency and it will still depend on having metagaming decisions work out in your favor - you will periodically have issues against top tier decks that are immune to the first Cap activation, or decks that decide to run 4 win conditions instead of 3 or less - they weaken themselves in the process of doing so, but it simply boils down to a guessing game between the control/combo decks and Shop decks with Cap. And Gifts has an additional option in Pithing Needle -there is a trade off in that Cap will destroy Gifts if it resolves and gets activated (which means getting over five obstacles - finding Cap, having the mana to cast it, resolving it, not having it Needled, and not having the Gifts player with a kill card in hand, although that is the worst of Gift's safety measures against Cap), versus having the much cheaper and powerful Null rod shutting down Gifts mana sources. I'm unsure at the moment what I'd prefer to face, although I'd probably slightly favor having to deal with Caps than Null rod to be honest.

You have no idea how the games played out.  For you to say that Null Rod would have won me matchups is absurd, as in the Day 2 Top 8 Quarterfinals, I never even saw Jester's Caps, which is what I took Null Rod out for.

This is something that time and more empirical evidence can determine; its conceivable that Null rod can win a lot of games for you in the same match-ups as Cap can. There is one significant obstacle to Cap, and that is for it to be effective against combo that presents a 2-3 turn clock, you need to have your Caps paired with Shops for them to actually have an impact. Null Rod doesnt have this requirement, as it can be cast with just a non-Shop land and a Mox. So in other words you effectively have the 4 CotVs and little else to contain the mana, and hope that some combination of pressure, early enough Caps, and stall cards like Tangle Wire will carry through the day.


In any case, you should be proud that your metagaming decision worked out well for you. Making t8 of a SCG event is certainly no small feat, and you have struck some fear into decks that play few win conditions - they will now be forced to consider the dangers of playing with less than 4 win conditions if they anticipate any Shop decks. Some decks won't care too much, like Fish, CS, WGD, Shop Aggro etc, so the Shop players will need to constantly evaluate Cap in light of the expected meta. If the control/combo decks do decide to prepare for Cap, then reverting back to Null Rod is probably a wise choice.

[Evenpence]

Yeah, I do talk in absolutes alot.  Sorry about that.  Thanks for your advice, Diceman, it helps.

[benthetenor]

A)  You have no idea how the games played out.  For you to say that Null Rod would have won me matchups is absurd, as in the Day 2 Top 8 Quarterfinals, I never even saw Jester's Caps, which is what I took Null Rod out for.

I don't care how the individual matches played out. Taking the statistics of a matchup off a single set of games is a terrible, terrible way to make a determination of what cards/strategies are good and who wins the matchup what percent of the time.

If you said this:

I instead played a more Workshop Aggro game, allowing me to get out fatties for pressure, forcing them to do stuff they didn't want to do, then I dropped a Cap and won, or I just dropped a cap early and won like that.

then what's your problem with taking the deck out of a Stax shell and concentrating on a Workshop Aggro plan? You're already playing that strategy, so why not further strengthen the deck by adding cards that support that strategy and taking cards out that don't? I already said something like this, but you blew me off with something like "Smokestack won me a game". I got news for ya, Smokestack does that. That doesn't make it right.


You know what? Nevermind. I thought you wanted input, but whatever I say you're just going to misquote and misunderstand, not to mention get all bent out of shape by what was supposed to be a discussion. We're not here to make points, B. We're here to discuss, but we can't do that when you come to the table with your mind already made up. If you can't take criticism, then maybe you shouldn't post stuff like this:

That's really all I have to say for right now.  I'll let you all discuss the effectiveness of Jester's Cap in Ubastax, as well as the merits and detriments of cutting Null Rod (which SHOULD honestly be talked about more than anything).

Discuss.

[Evenpence]

Ben, you constantly tell me that I'm wrong on my lists.  CONSTANTLY.  I can't remember a thread I started where you didn't have a complaint with one of my lists.  I've asked you time and time again for a single LIST to prove that your version of Ubastax, or UbaCap, or whatever version we're currently discussing at the time is better than mine, and every single time you have not produced one.  I'm not even asking you to go to a tournament and back it up with wins, just to produce a list to show me why, in theory, your ideas are better than mine.

As for your latest post, I have no problem with taking Stax out of the deck.  Yesphuyren and I have already done so.  Please read the thread, "THE JESTER."  Maybe you haven't gone there yet to complain about it because I haven't started it, I don't know.

As for me misquoting and misunderstanding you, I think you're a little backwards.  For instance:

so why not further strengthen the deck by adding cards that support that strategy and taking cards out that don't? I already said something like this, but you blew me off with something like "Smokestack won me a game". I got news for ya, Smokestack does that. That doesn't make it right.

I was saying that Smokestack won me a SINGLE GAME because it was HORRIBLE Day 1.  I was explaining that I SHOULD have gone Workshop Aggro Day 1, and everyone seems to have gotten that except for you.

I don't care how the individual matches played out. Taking the statistics of a matchup off a single set of games is a terrible, terrible way to make a determination of what cards/strategies are good and who wins the matchup what percent of the time.

How about an entire tournament?  Wait, no, TWO entire tournaments?  Is that good enough for you?

[Juggernaut GO]

colby I just want to let you know, that one game smokestack won you, got you into the top 8.  If smokestack wasn't dropped that turn, the game was over for u :> game 2 was won by smokestack not jesters cap.  Smokestack gives you answers to shit you cant answer, and can act the same as a juggernut when you resolve karn.

[Evenpence]

Thanks man.  I was a little fuzzy on that.  I'll change it.

[benthetenor]

How about an entire tournament?  Wait, no, TWO entire tournaments?  Is that good enough for you?

No. Besides, you said yourself that the decks you played day one and day two are basically completely different, so you have about only a handful of matches per deck. That does not a good deck make.

I don't spread my list because honestly, it's the same thing as Vroman played way back in his second SCG win. The deck was fine the way it was, and it's still the most consistant Stax list I've ever played. But in general, I don't spread my tech/testing results/current lists because I don't have an inferiority complex to compensate for. I don't really care if you think my list is terrible. Why should you care what I happen to think? Opinion matters nothing. Top 8's are the only true measures of skill. I recognize that you have a lot of skill, but Top 8-ing doesn't mean that your list is right. It means that you're a good player. Take my opinions for what you want, but they are just that, my opinions, and they're not going to change, as yours are not going to change. That's why logic is important; Logic can be examined and corrected, but people get all pissed off when you tell them their opinion is wrong.

I'm not going to repeat my logical arguments for Null Rod yet again, as you'll probably just retort with an opinion like you have to every other one of my posts in this thread.

[xrobx]

An often overlooked advantage of Karn over Shaman is

A)  Karn isn't affected by Chalice @ 1
B)  Karn can be welded in if its killed
C)  Karn is harder to kill
D) Shaman is done for once its been pitched to bazaar.  Karn isn't

Good point man.  Some obvious things to add:

E) Karn works nicer with obselete caps that could sit idle, 2/2 vs a 4/4 is a big difference in clock speed.
F) Karn can get RID of chalice at 1, allowing you to bring the goblin in.


So definatly, IMHO, Karn > shaman for the purpose of this deck.  I do believe that smokestack is an integral part of any 'stax' deck, as it should be evident in the name.  It clears permanents, enough said.  Welder makes this retarded obviously.  Too good not to include.

As for the rod/cap debate, I used to play cap often in slaver.  Many times, it was easier to just rip out their win conditions, and leave them stranded, than it was to try to establish a nice CA/welder lock. However, there is such a multitude of decks that rod affects, and its very hard to deny the asbolute power of the rod that does nothing.  IMHO, you play rod, or you dont play rod (meaning if you CAN play it, utilize it efficiently, if you cannot, stay away from it and have a solution to it).

So, depending on your playstyle, and of course the meta you expect (if it is even logical anymore to base a decision on, as your guesstimate could result in a poorly designed deck with dead draw, as opposed to universal disruption ie. null rod and needle) cap may be the right card for you, or it may not be. 

As Peter said, in short, cap is quite circumstancial.  Null rod is not.  Cap can win games, so can null rod.  I think the question this deck has to look at is: does this deck benefit from disabling manabases, which prevents further spell casting, or does it benefit moreso from an aggro/suicide type strategy of ripping things apart, and delivering fast damage.  Play the deck as you will, they are two very different and separate decks.

[Evenpence]

Good point man.  Some obvious things to add:

E) Karn works nicer with obselete caps that could sit idle, 2/2 vs a 4/4 is a big difference in clock speed.

Karn couldn't make Null Rod a 2/2.  Null Rod nullifies Karn's Activated Ability, as he is an artifact.

F) Karn can get RID of chalice at 1, allowing you to bring the goblin in.

So can Monkey, Smokestack, etc etc.  If Chalice at 1 is out, it's hurting the opponent more than it's hurting you, and unless your opponent has a Darksteel Colossus out, Chalice for 1 is always good.

So definatly, IMHO, Karn > shaman for the purpose of this deck.  I do believe that smokestack is an integral part of any 'stax' deck, as it should be evident in the name.  It clears permanents, enough said.  Welder makes this retarded obviously.  Too good not to include.

As pointed out by many, I actually didn't play a Stax deck at Richmond, sending me to back-to-back Top 8's.  I played a new archetype which we're currently working on, called "The Jester," as Smokestack only got me a few (if that) game wins Day 1, and only 5 wins Day 2.  I frequently wished Stax was something different, especially in the games that I lost.  (I actually lost because Smokestack wasn't something else in my game against Jason Gaudard.)  Stax is not an integral part of this deck, because it has more of a workshop-aggro mentality with the ability to win by simply activating Jester's Cap.

So, depending on your playstyle, and of course the meta you expect (if it is even logical anymore to base a decision on, as your guesstimate could result in a poorly designed deck with dead draw, as opposed to universal disruption ie. null rod and needle) cap may be the right card for you, or it may not be. 

The decks that Cap is good against Null Rod is good against.  You usually have to pick one or the other, as the decks that aren't affected by one, aren't affected by the other.  For instance:  Combo.  Yep, both are good.  Gifts:  Yep, both are good.  Slaver:  Yep, both are good.  Jank Aggro:  Neither are good.  Established Aggro:  Neither are good.

As Peter said, in short, cap is quite circumstancial.  Null rod is not.  Cap can win games, so can null rod.  I think the question this deck has to look at is: does this deck benefit from disabling manabases, which prevents further spell casting, or does it benefit moreso from an aggro/suicide type strategy of ripping things apart, and delivering fast damage.  Play the deck as you will, they are two very different and separate decks.

Null Rod is definitely circumstancial.  If your opponent doesn't have any moxes out, Null Rod doesn't do anything for you.  Null Rod doesn't just win you games, btw.  You need something else in addition to Null Rod, like a ramped Smokestack, Trinisphere, or Crucible-Strip Lock with your opponent at small amounts of land, or a beater to put the pressure on and your opponent has to have a stunted enough development, etc.  Null Rod is a synergistic card that goes well with other pieces of Ubastax, while Jester's Cap doesn't care about Synergy and just wants to win you the game.

Like you've said, they're two different decks, which means Stax can be cut from this deck, and Null Rod does not need to be in it.  If you look at Jester's Cap more like Karn, you'll see that The Jester just wants to win by putting stuff out there and turning it sideways, while disrupting the manabase and spells of the opponent.

[madmanmike25]

"Jank Aggro:  Neither are good.  Established Aggro:  Neither are good."

I think the proper term is neither are "optimal".  I dont think removing 3 x Jugg/Ichy/fatty can be a BAD thing, but of course caps should be sided out for more appropriate cards.  Plus Caps are better than rods against aggro, correct?  Not to mention, putting down multiple caps > multiple rods(and thats true against most decks).  I have never played a deck that enjoys having 3 of its best/most needed cards removed.  Im not saying that activation=instawin, but its a huge downer.

Caps have always been sideboard fare in some of my decks, I will experiment with them main in my shop builds. 

While I do think Karn is better, monkey is faster at destroying permanents.  Both are situational and debatable.  Hell, why not play with both?  Also Karn>Jugg.  2 is a good number to run until they print Karns unlegendary stunt double.

P.S.  If caps become obsolete due to quick-win decks running MORE win conditions over tutors to find those conditions then......freakin awesome!  Advantage Workshop.  Props to you.  And congrats on 2 wins.