Jester's Cap in Ubastax I.E., the card that got me two T8s at Richmond.

[Darkmage]

Colossus/Vault are the primary win conditions, although if they play Tendrils in the SB (which they are SURE to do now if they didn't before), Burning Wish is also a Cap Target.

I capped Outlaw turn 2 Game 1 Day 2, and saw only Vault (barely, this will make a funny story for the report), and Colossus.  I didn't see Burning Wish, and assumed it was in his hand.  I chose to remove Yawgmoth's Will so he would have a harder time accumulating storm for the lethal Tendrils.  Fortunately, he doesn't run Burning Wish, so he scooped.

Against Combo, activated Cap is game over unless they have the Tendrils in hand.

I fail to see why Gifts is sure to run Tendrils in the sideboard as a result of two top 8s with Jester's Cap.  I don't even see why running the wish-->tendrils would improve the matchup very much.  Your example doesn't seem to illustrate the statement that Gifts must play wish-->tendrils either.  To me, it seems that Outlaw would probably still have lost because he probably wouldn't be holding Burning Wish on turn 2 anyway, and it doesn't seem like both a sideboard and maindeck slot are worth the slightly improved chance of surviving a cap.  Furthermore, while it certainly isn't a catch-all solution, three maindeck Pithing Needles sure help against Cap.

If Gifts players started running 4 win conditions, would you still run Jester's Cap main?

Barring cards that also serve another function (i.e. Bob), a Gifts deck with more than 3 win conditions would probably collapse under its own level of suck.

It is 5 AM for me, so I apologize for any idiotic statements I may have made in advance.

[Evenpence]

I fail to see why Gifts is sure to run Tendrils in the sideboard as a result of two top 8s with Jester's Cap.

Perhaps because the Cap will not stay at Richmond and continue to move on to bigger and better things?  For one, people netdeck.  For two, players like Jester's Cap and the ability to win early with a Stax deck.  For three, players like Vroman have made the switch to Cap and done well with it, which means many more people will be doing it in the future.

I don't even see why running the wish-->tendrils would improve the matchup very much.

It's another win condition.

Your example doesn't seem to illustrate the statement that Gifts must play wish-->tendrils either.

It was a statement made in passing.  I didn't necessarily want to start an entire topic/discussion/debate/thread etc etc on why Gifts needs to run more win conditions now.

To me, it seems that Outlaw would probably still have lost because he probably wouldn't be holding Burning Wish on turn 2 anyway, and it doesn't seem like both a sideboard and maindeck slot are worth the slightly improved chance of surviving a cap.

He might have, though, and that might have eventually won him the game.  You're probably right though, that a sideboard and maindeck slot aren't worth the improved chance of surviving a cap.  Again, I wasn't planning on anyone actually arguing with me on a more-or-less passing jest (heh, jest).

Furthermore, while it certainly isn't a catch-all solution, three maindeck Pithing Needles sure help against Cap.

You can PM me if you disagree, as I don't want this thread to take an entirely new spin/debate/topic/discussion/debate/thread etc, but I don't respect Pithing Needle.  I've been saying it for a while, but it's true.  With adding Granite Shards into the MD, the ability to make it a creature via karn then kill it with Granite Shard is huge too, heh.  Playing Pithing Needle naming Jester's Cap wastes a Pithing Needle that could have been spent on Welder or Bazaar, so it doesn't really matter, imo.  It also doesn't help if I plop down cap and activate it on the same turn (or weld it in with bazaar discardation then activate it) as you're usually not going to blind-needle a Stax deck.

[Dozer]

[...] as you're usually not going to blind-needle a Stax deck.

...which, as you are at pains to point out, your deck isn't? 

Anyway, I only dropped by to point out that Jester's Cap won't make people run Tendrils of Agony anymore than they do now (they should, but that's not the topic here. Tendrils is virtually a no-brainer for me especially if you run Rebuild). Out of the 34 Gifts decks played in the January Waterbury and SCG P9 Richmond, 17 already ran Tendrils (including the two T8 decks from Waterbury). But even if the decks that didn't, like Kowal's 2nd place Richmond list, would include the Tendrils kill, you could still take them out with a single Cap (Colossus, Fusillade, Wish). And a fourth win condition is really not necessary and makes the deck unnecessary clunky (unless you want to count Dark Confidant, which can serve as win condition in a pinch.)

Gifts shouldn't start adding win conditions just to combat Jester's Cap. It should keep Caps off the table and win before they get active. Pithing Needle is important because even though it won't take Caps out of the equation, it gives you -- for minimal investment -- enough time to get going. Prolonging an early Cap slows the Cap deck down. Especially when the Cap deck has cut down on lock components, the time it needs to remove Pithing Needle via Karn/ Granite Shards is just the time Gifts should need to combo out.

Perhaps because the Cap will not stay at Richmond and continue to move on to bigger and better things?  For one, people netdeck.  For two, players like Jester's Cap and the ability to win early with a Stax deck.  For three, players like Vroman have made the switch to Cap and done well with it, which means many more people will be doing it in the future.

You are only seeing one side of the equation here. More Caps will also mean more countermeasures. People might just play a different deck less vulnerable, or faster decks, or more Pithing Needles, Disenchants, Null Rods, Oxidizes etc. themselves. The solutions to a fundamentally slow card like Jester's Cap are numerous. People have to expect it now, true, but that only means they will come prepared. Certainly not by watering down their Gifts decks with more win conditions when other, easier solutions are out there.

Dozer

[Evenpence]

Yeah, like I said before, I really didn't mean that Gifts should run Tendrils just to combat Cap, as that's silly (as I intended silliness in the post).  Also, like I said just two posts ago (or was it one?) that I didn't want to take this thread in this direction.

[Dozer]

Then let's turn turn to the question of the effectiveness of Jester's Cap, going up against Null Rod in the debate. What would personally interest me is: What is the thing you most fear on the other side of the table? You said:

Playing Pithing Needle naming Jester's Cap wastes a Pithing Needle that could have been spent on Welder or Bazaar, so it doesn't really matter, imo.

As I have no experience playing Workshops with Caps, I'd be interested in the situations where Cap sucks. Compared to Null Rod, do these situations come up more often? The way I see it, it's basically a risk/reward question: Jester's Cap is a higher risk with better rewards, while Null Rod is less risky and provides less of an an instant win. (The higher risk here is higher mana cost, slower card, more often a dead card.)

Dozer

[yespuhyren]

Personally, I won't really say Cap sucks in any matchup.  It is WEAKEST against all forms of random aggro like shittorid and fish types, but we can at least remove null rods or anything we want, really.  Even against Shittorid, I usually remove 3x Bazaars, or if they are playing them, darkblasts.

Against those random aggro decks, playing Null Rod isn't much better, as it doesn't really hurt them that much.  So although Null Rod is really good in some matchups for shutting down slavers/trikes/moxes, a lot of the time being able to cast/crack or weld in and crack(pitching to bazaar and welding in is one of the better ways to get it in fast without a shop), you can often remove the threats that are more difficult to deal with like Trikes, Colossuses, etc.  Moxes aren't that big of an issue if you can remove all their win conditions.  Obviously moxes are still in need of being destroyed or kept in their hands, so 2x Karn for destruction and 4x Chalice of the Void for making them hold them, not to mention resistors in some of the lists I'm testing help as well.

Tangle wire also helps against faster decks, keeping them at bay while I work, just long enough to cap them or beat face with captain K.

[Juggernaut GO]

I really think this deck has at least 2 slots to devote to mindslaver, either maindeck or sideboard.  If you think activating a cap is sick, how about a turn 2 slaver welded in off a bazaar.  This deck is capable of that play easily, and slaver ends the game without any chance of them having an extra win condition.

[yespuhyren]

We actually joked about it, but I never really thought about it serously.  Its definitely worth giving a shot

Good call Travis :lol:

The only forseeable problem would be getting to the 4 mana, it might take a while, so rarely gonna be turn 2, but regardless, it should still be very strong.

[Darkmage]

I really think this deck has at least 2 slots to devote to mindslaver, either maindeck or sideboard.  If you think activating a cap is sick, how about a turn 2 slaver welded in off a bazaar.  This deck is capable of that play easily, and slaver ends the game without any chance of them having an extra win condition.

To get a turn 2 slaver this way without activation mana,  you need a turn 1 red source + welder, followed up by a turn 2 Bazaar, discarding Slaver, with another artifact on the board.  I do not think that it can be said that "this deck is capable of that play easily," as it requires a red source and welder in the first 7 cards, a Bazaar in the first 8, and a cheap artifact and one of the two potential Slavers in the first 10.  To also have mana to activate on turn 2 is nearly impossible, but I can't tell from your post if you meant activating the Slaver on turn 2 or not.  I'm not saying that Slaver is a bad suggestion for the deck, but just that the example is ridiculous.  I hope you weren't joking or being sarcastic and I'm not just making a fool out of myself by taking you seriously.

[Juggernaut GO]

this deck could definitely pull off a slaver activation on turn 2,   first turn  mountain, mox welder go
second turn bazaar activate, draw into maybe mana crypt or mana vault, play, weld,  GG.  This deck Is a much more resilient build of CA  when you really think about it, bazaar + welder = good stuff happens.

[Frank@TO]

mindslaver is not a valid addition to this deck. Its activation cost is too much and its roll is basically the same as the jester cap. Why play slower jester caps.
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[yespuhyren]

How can you possible say that they are the same role?  They are completely opposite roles. 

Jester's cap removes win conditions from the deck.

Mindslaver does its best to completely screw over its opponent and their hand, and is an excellent idea.  Once again, Thanks for the input Travis, thanks for trying to help make this better.  I will definitely test it out as a 2 of for now, and let you know how it goes.

Jason

[Evenpence]

I've thought about Mindslaver for a while now, and come to the conclusion that it's worth testing, but probably will not be a permanent addition to the deck.  This is for a few reasons:

1)  It's six mana to cast.  Even with shops, this is hard to pull off in the early game.  Duplicant and Trike are a problem because they are six mana to cast, while Karn is boarderline, and 4 mana shouldn't be a problem most of the time (with shops, mind you).
2)  It's four non-shop mana to activate.  Although mindslaving turn 2 would be good, you first of all need to get the Mindslaver into play (usually by pitching it with bazaar and then welding it but you could theoretically hardcast it as well), and then you need a good bit of artifact mana to activate it.  The good thing is that Mindslaver is probably better than Cap mid game, and definitely better late game, where you have the mana that you need to activate it, hardcast it, or possibly both.
3)  Cap does what Slaver wants to, but better.  It wins the game for us early and really cripples an opposing deck from the get-go.  Second turn Slaver activation is usually nothing compared to first (or second) turn Cap activation.

However, there are perks about Slaver, which include primarily the late game and the ability to delay the inevitible death from aggro long enough to win the game.  However, the costs of Slaver are very high, primarily because of the need of Workshop to hardcast it in addition with the detriment of non-workshop mana to activate it.

That being said, I haven't actually tested the card.  I WILL get around to this though when work isn't so busy for me.  Thanks for posting Travis, your insight is highly appreciated.

Colby

[yespuhyren]

I tested it out in about 7/8 matches with 2 MD.  The card was awesome...WHEN I could activate it.  Like I had originally thought, it was just too difficult to activate most of the time without a heavy mox draw.  Late game its still ok, but if its that late and they haven't been capped and they aren't ubalocked, then you are probably going to lose anyways.