Grimlong Vs IT, whats the better choice?

[NaNaKy3k]

In Richmond, we saw 2 combo decks placing top8, the first one whas Intuition Tendrils, the Gws secret deck that top4´ed both days, the secong whas Grimlong, Smennen top8´ed with it and was piloted by many of meandeck members.

Decklists:

Intuition Tendrils
Land 14
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Accel 16
8 Sol-lo-moxen-crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Protection 10
4 Duress
3 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

Business 20
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
2 Grim Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Perplex
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Ancestral Recall

SB 15
4 Dark Confidant
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Massacre
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Swamp
1 Coffin Purge

GrimLong

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Xantid Swarm

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mind's Desire
1 Regrowth
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Lands
4 City Of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard(a bit different):
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Abeyance
1 Chain Of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Balance

Grimlong has more broken plays, is more agresive, but it only plays 4duress1xantid1chain of vapor as disruption, and it runs draw7 and a weak manabase
on the other hand, IT runs a manabase with 3 basic lands and 8 fetchlands, also runs more disruption in form of duress&fow and runs like 2/3 bouncers, but is less broken, and in order to win it needs play intuition before will

After seen the new uba with Jester´s cap, wich deck do you think is stronger for the actual metagame, IT or Grimlong?

[ashiXIII]

Grimlong has more broken plays, is more agresive, but it only plays 4duress1xantid1chain of vapor as disruption, and it runs draw7 and a weak manabase
on the other hand, IT runs a manabase with 3 basic lands and 8 fetchlands, also runs more disruption in form of duress&fow and runs like 2/3 bouncers, but is less broken, and in order to win it needs play intuition before will

After seen the new uba with Jester´s cap, wich deck do you think is stronger for the actual metagame, IT or Grimlong?

It's hard to say which deck is 'stronger' Grim Long is faster, while IT is more consistent and more resilient to hate. By the way, IT doesn't need to cast an Intuition to go off. It helps significantly, but I've played many, many games with the deck where I went off without ever seeing Intuition, and just as early. I think this deck's biggest weakness is only having 1 win condition main, especially with people running Caps. I understand the argument that even if it ran 2 or 3, Cap would still beat it. However, even with an amount of win conditions under the auto-lose-to-Cap range, having 2 or 3 increases your chances of drawing one early, and thus improves your chances against a deck with Cap.

[yespuhyren]

I personally played both of them yesterday.  It is really hard to say which is better.  Grimlong just couldn't get a good hand against me, and IT did, but I destroyed it Games 2 and 3 with Chalices and Caps.  Having 1 Tendrils didn't kill IT.  I capped IT for Rebuild, Hurkyls, and Tendrils.  Even if it had another tendrils, my board postition was so strong it wouldn't have mattered that late.

[Ged]

However, IT does play 4x Dark Confidant in the side (+x Tendrils).

[Moxlotus]

It is important to notice that the 3 IT decklists that made top 8  between the 2 days were all different--the deck is about as customizable as Slaver.

The primer was sent on friday to SCG, so it will be up sometime.  Maybe it will help.

[yespuhyren]

In my honest opinion, as far as straight combo decks go, IT is by far the best one at the moment.

[ELD]

After speaking with Rich about his Day 2 loss to grimlong at Richmond, I fear GrimLong more than any match up.  Though he won game 2, he lost game 1 and 3 w/o getting a turn.  One of those games he had force, which was duressed away, and in his hand he had chalice and duress.  GrimLong's ability to win so quickly becomes more and more important when you get to the highest level of skill.  Sure, when you're a strong player you'll outplay the weaker players.  When strong players face off, however, it often comes down to who goes broken.  GrimLong, IMO, is the most broken pile you can shuffle up. 

[yespuhyren]

I also believe it is the most skill intensive.  It is very difficult to get first turn kills from what I have seen, though I HAVE NOT personally played the deck.  My first round opponent did play the deck, and after he and I were goldfishing, and even what seemed to be an amazing hand was still nearly impossible to win without blindly hitting a draw 7 and praying to god for mana.

[sean1i0]

In some ways I almost feel like comparing the two is unfair to both decks; although I haven't gotten a chance to play IT yet, although I intend to soon, I can get a basic feel for the deck by hearing people compare it to TPS without stalling.  If that's really what it plays like, then I'ld say they're both equally viable, that it just really depends on what you want out of a deck:  If you want to always be the "beatdown," then go for grimlong; if you don't mind sacrificing a little bit of speed to be able to throw out a force of will, along with more of an assured combo due to the greater set-up (intuition, etc.), then go with IT.  They're both really amazing, broken, and consistent decks (obviously).

[benthetenor]

I think that one of the most amazing things about I.T. is it's flexibility, allowing you to play either a ridiculously fast game or a slower more deliberate game depending on your match-ups. You can glide between beatdown and control (of sorts, though you should never actually have control of anything) to play whatever role suits you better against any given deck. That's real power.

[Hydra]

It should also be noted that IT needs to run less Draw 7s than Grim Long, but doesn't lose anything in terms of consistency because of that.  It's really a metagame choice: in a HEAVY Drain meta then Grim Long would probably be better, but if there's Workshops, IT is the superior deck.

Of course, I'd rather just play IT.  Eric Becker is a God among men, and anyone else who knows him will agree.

[nicofromtokyo]

However I found Grim Long much funnier to play than IT, as you have access to Draw7 and Mind's Desire. You are forced to make risky decisions, dangerous plays and fancy combinations to win, and combined with experience and trust on the deck you may find more pleasure to kill your opponent after a 12 storms Mind's Desire and a 25 storms ToA, rather than waiting for the eot and casting a Intuition to make a Yagwin on the following turn. I think both decks are strong, you just have to choose the one that best suits your skills and play preferences.

[forests failed you]

Grimlong.

If you are going to play a busted combo deck you should play the one that just wins the game as quickly as possible.  Stax is a fairly poor match up for either list, so I'd rather be piloting the version that can just win on the first turn if it takes the die roll.

[Moxlotus]

Stax is a fairly poor match up for either list

This is a completely false statement.  Becker and Endress have said that Stax is by far the easiest matchup for IT.  IT was developed to beat Stax.

[pyr0ma5ta]

It would appear that Grim has the stronger Drain matchup, and while I am terrible with Ritual decks, I have been told that IT has a better Workshop matchup.  I'm honestly not sure how this is true, but I haven't tested the deck and I'm terrible at combo anyway.

Is it because of the extra bounce in the IT maindeck?  And the random Perplex that gets rebuild?  I don't see Duress being particularly strong against Stax, either, and isn't Null Rod still a face smashing?

[raiL]

IT's mana base is alot stronger then grimlongs.

Actually, being a grim player myself, ive come to relize that null rod is more of a HELP to you then a hinderance. Decks evolve around the use of cards. How does Combo  beat stax? Rebuild/hurkyls EOT. How does Null Rod affect this at all? Also, it stops them from capping you ( big plus ) or crypting you. Id almost go as far as to say you should SB them yourself in grim.

[pyr0ma5ta]

IT's mana base is alot stronger then grimlongs.

Actually, being a grim player myself, ive come to relize that null rod is more of a HELP to you then a hinderance. Decks evolve around the use of cards. How does Combo  beat stax? Rebuild/hurkyls EOT. How does Null Rod affect this at all? Also, it stops them from capping you ( big plus ) or crypting you. Id almost go as far as to say you should SB them yourself in grim.

This simply cannot be true.  I stop your unfair mana, then follow up with wasteland/crucible or smokey@1 or Uba Mask or Sphere of Resistance or any number of threats that just win the game.  Crypts and Caps are ok at best, but actively making you unable to cast is just gamebreaking, I would have to say.

[Moxlotus]

It would appear that Grim has the stronger Drain matchup, and while I am terrible with Ritual decks, I have been told that IT has a better Workshop matchup.  I'm honestly not sure how this is true, but I haven't tested the deck and I'm terrible at combo anyway.

Is it because of the extra bounce in the IT maindeck?  And the random Perplex that gets rebuild?  I don't see Duress being particularly strong against Stax, either, and isn't Null Rod still a face smashing?

This simply cannot be true.  I stop your unfair mana, then follow up with wasteland/crucible or smokey@1 or Uba Mask or Sphere of Resistance or any number of threats that just win the game.  Crypts and Caps are ok at best, but actively making you unable to cast is just gamebreaking, I would have to say.

IT has 0, 1, and 2 cc acceleration and can sit and whack off on its basics and fetches until it finds them.  It is really, really, hard to stop all of the mana in the deck.  Testing has shown that you need 3 Chalice, 2 Chalice+Rod, or a SoR+rod/chalice to really do it.  Uba, Stack and CoW are pretty useless without the other pieces down.  Post-board is even more stupid with Confidants and the ability for multiple mini-tendrils.

[ErkBek]

It also should be noted that IT can easily win over a null rod or a chalice at 1 via intuition. If a rod is on the table, play intuition for 3 dark rituals. If Chalice at 1 is on the table, intuition for 2 cabal rits and Black Lotus.

Most games that I beat stax can be attributed to IT's very stable manabase. I wouldn't rely on Demar's plan with grim long which is "Just turn 1 kill them."

I'm not sure why people are saying IT just can't beat drains. Slaver is a favorable matchup, and I'll stand by that statement. I went 1-3 vs. slaver in Richmond, largely because of bad luck. Here is what happened in the 7 games I lost to slaver during the weekend.

3 games turn 3 slaver
2 via mana screw
1 via TFK into the absolute balls (DT, Lotus, and land)
1 he had answers to my business spells and then I lost

Those things happen, this is type 1.

Gifts is a totally different matchup than slaver. It is unfavorable, prob about 35-65. Gifts ability to just combo you out on turn 3 is a huge problem. I'm yet to test the Drain TPS matchup, I'm guessing it will be about the same as gifts.

[dicemanx]

This is a completely false statement.  Becker and Endress have said that Stax is by far the easiest matchup for IT.  IT was developed to beat Stax.

Does this assessment change against Shop decks with Caps over Null Rods? It seems the reason why IT is so strong over Stax (ability to sit and wait on fetches and basics, and quickly find bounce)  is trumped by the game-ending threat that Cap presents all of a sudden. I have a feeling we'll start to se a surge of Cap-based decks for a little while, so the potency of the card needs to be assessed.

[yespuhyren]

This is a completely false statement.  Becker and Endress have said that Stax is by far the easiest matchup for IT.  IT was developed to beat Stax.

Does this assessment change against Shop decks with Caps over Null Rods? It seems the reason why IT is so strong over Stax (ability to sit and wait on fetches and basics, and quickly find bounce)  is trumped by the game-ending threat that Cap presents all of a sudden. I have a feeling we'll start to se a surge of Cap-based decks for a little while, so the potency of the card needs to be assessed.

From my testing against IT, I have found Cap to be extremely potent.  I locked up the board with various pieces, but IF I manage to cap then the game is usually over.  Although they MIGHT have 4x confidant, I would leave those in, opting to take out their artifact bounce (Hurkyl's, Rebuild, etc), and let my Granite shards and B-Rings mop up the Bobs.  In the SB, I also have 4x Resistor, 4x Tormod's Crypt to hurt the deck even more post board (Removing 4x Uba and 4x Tangle Wire), keeping in Crucibles because being able to mill yourself insanely with bazaar to find what you want, and still be able to play lands like normal is a huge advantage against any deck.

[raiL]

like i pointed out already, yspuhyren's win from stax comes for artifact activations. He RELIES on it. Null rod does nothing against either deck with a decent player now.

The only question i have in my mind, is whether to run 3 grim tutors, or 4. Personally, in testing, ive found that its NEVER bad to have 2 grim tutor's in your hand. At best, it cantrips for lotus, which in turn, nets you 3 extra mana and 2 storm after will. Or, if you fizzle and need a reset, probally be better to have 2 tutors then a single. Dont know though, everyone keeps trying to shy me away from it.

[ErkBek]

This is a completely false statement.  Becker and Endress have said that Stax is by far the easiest matchup for IT.  IT was developed to beat Stax.

Does this assessment change against Shop decks with Caps over Null Rods? It seems the reason why IT is so strong over Stax (ability to sit and wait on fetches and basics, and quickly find bounce)  is trumped by the game-ending threat that Cap presents all of a sudden. I have a feeling we'll start to se a surge of Cap-based decks for a little while, so the potency of the card needs to be assessed.

I'm actually yet to test the matchup, but here is my analysis. Game 1 looks like a goldfish. Seriously, the only cards that you have to worry about is chalice , 3sphere, and cap (Chalice is just a small speed bump for IT). Game 2 and 3 are likely to be very rough though. Some people pack 3 tendrils on the SB to combat cap (Endress), however this plan only works if if they only have a cap and nothing else.  Cap could also be effective vs. "the Becker manabase" by removing all my fecthable lands or by simply removing bounce spells if stax has already resolved a sphere.  I prob will continue to run only 2 tendrils on the SB, since cap can mess up the deck in other ways than just removing its kill.

My best guess is the matchup is about 60-40 in favor of IT (down from about 70-30).

@yespuhyren: Are all your IT players as bad as that guy you played in your tournament report? If so that could badly skew your testing results.

[dicemanx]

I prob will continue to run only 2 tendrils on the SB, since cap can mess up the deck in other ways than just removing its kill.

Any thoughts about testing SB Needle or Stifle to combat the Cap problem? Needle and Stifle have other potential uses too.

[ErkBek]

I prob will continue to run only 2 tendrils on the SB, since cap can mess up the deck in other ways than just removing its kill.

Any thoughts about testing SB Needle or Stifle to combat the Cap problem? Needle and Stifle have other potential uses too.

I've been considering damping matrix. It shuts down welders, caps, slavers, belchers, trikes, and granite shards. Shutting down trikes and shards actually matters because confidants come in.

[Gabethebabe]

I've been considering damping matrix. It shuts down welders, caps, slavers, belchers, trikes, and granite shards. Shutting down trikes and shards actually matters because confidants come in.

And not to forget Tormod´s Crypt which is a total pain in the ass for the deck. Since you don´t run D7´s you more or less rely on Will. When I played the deck I think I won one game without resolving Will.

[Moxlotus]

I played against Becker twice and I always felt that Tormods Crypt was not that effective against him.  Certainly Will made things easier for him, but I don't think it really slowed his deck down more than a turn or so.

Game 1, you have bounce and Bargain to win without Will.  Or you can build a hand with tons of mana and tutor into tutor into tutor into Tendrils--not that that's easy but its certainly possible.
Game 2, you have Confidants and the ability to mini-tendrils.

[ErkBek]

And not to forget Tormod´s Crypt which is a total pain in the ass for the deck. Since you don´t run D7´s you more or less rely on Will. When I played the deck I think I won one game without resolving Will.

You're right, Tcyrpt too.

@resolving yawg will: the deck is very will dependant, however I can honestly say that about 25% of game 1's I win are without resolving will. Usually these games involve resolving necro or bargain however fairly often I just play 9 spells and then a tendrils. Its really not all that hard to do if you choose to develop that plan early (ie opponent drops a turn 1 maindeck tormod's crypt) however it becomes significantly more difficult if you brainstorm or tutor incorrectly before the crypt comes down. Intuitions and grims become free spells that add 2 to your storm count plus you can usually bait out a counterspell or BS from your opponent for storm.

[PucktheCat]

I totally agree about Tormod's Crypt.  The deck is all tutors, so switching plans is really easy.

I think the key difference in the decks is definately the mana base.  There is no reason Becker couldn't run most of the big bombs that Long runs (Desire, Windfall, Imp. Seal, Tinker/Jar, etc.).  What Becker.dec loses from his two color mana base is Xantid Swarm, Wheel of Fortune, Regrowth, and some sideboard cards.  All the other stuff - the Forces and Intuitions and Tinkers and Windfalls - all that can be shifted around and changed to fit a particular metagame or preference.  You could build a deck that has Intuitions but no Forces, or one that has Forces but no Intuitions.  You could build a deck with Mind's Desire, Time Walk, and Imperial Seal but without Windfall.  There is very little limit to the possible hybrids between the Becker and Long when it comes to blue and black business spells.

The limitations come with the mana bases.  You can't have both a fetchland based mana base and a 5c mana base - it really is an either/or situation.  I think the question this thread is asking is simple:  Would you rather have A) Regrowth, Xantid Swarm, and Wheel of Fortune, or B) the best mana base in Magic.

[Gabethebabe]

As a sidenote to the original post: Grimlong is cooler, because sometimes you will be able to Tendrils your opponent to -infinite. I did it today in playtesting. It went something like:

Sapphire, Brainstorm
Jet, Ritual, Ritual, Lotus, LED, Desire for 8.

The 8 cards were kind, as was able to Rotate Academy into play, play a couple more spells and Regrow the Desire for something like 18. Now I had so many tutors RFG that I controlled the game and I went regrowing Timetwisters, underwhile using Desire to cap the chaff out of my library, using Hurkyll´s Recall and Lotus to pay for all my spells until I managed to Twister into a hand that contained Regrowth, Lotus, Mind´s Desire, Hurkyll´s Recall and three irrelevant cards. Desire now left me with 8 cards between hand and Cementery and I had infinite Timetwisters.

Do that in a tournament and the audience will be in awe  :shock:  :shock: