New format - Mana Storm

[Matt]

So there's this style of play I've been experimenting with. It's played with any random stack of cards (this is more fun than constructed), like DC10, but you don't have to worry about the silly infinite mana thing, which makes a lot of cards either broken or dead draws.

Here's how it goes: both players shuffle up and draw 7 cards. It's just like a normal game, but with a few rules changes:

1. The Mox Diamond Rule: Any time you could play a land, you may put a card from your hand into play face-down as a rainbow "super dual land." Treat this just like a dual land, but instead of being just Island Plains, it's all five basic land types.

2. The Fastbond rule: You can do this any number of times per turn. You may also play any number of regular lands (while you would always prefer a Gemstone Mine to be a super-dual, you might need that Treetop Village as a creature).

Rule #1 makes some cards very good - [card]Bog Wraith[/card] turns out to be very strong, [card]Treefolk Seedlings[/card] gets pumped up. Gush happens to abuse BOTH rules (all your lands are islands and you can just replay both lands), making it one of the best cards in the format. The only card I've had to ban so far has been [card]Flooded Shoreline[/card] for being frankly ridiculous.

Optional rules: I like to play with a shared library and graveyard (and Highlander, to make for more entertaining games), though this means having to ban [card]Funeral Pyre[/card] for being ambiguous about who gets the token. I would like to try drafting this format sometime. Shared-library makes Brainstorm and Bone Harvest very interesting. Shared graveyard and Flashback really don't conflict like you'd think - you still have to have priority to play a spell, even a flashback one. I also like sharing graveyards because it means threshold cards "turn on" much sooner.

Now for the tricky stuff: what to do when a superdual is returned to your hand? I think it's fine to treat it as reverting to a card, just like if you'd just drawn it. The hard part is that there is a huge incentive to remember which of your face down cards are which. The way I play is to go with the "spirit of the format" and just return two random face-down lands when you Gush (for example). This format shouldn't be a game of Memory. Rule #1 means that no card is ever truly dead. Even Rampant Growth or Exploration can be a land. Plus, if you "imprint" a good card early on, you can get it back and reuse it.

There are two alternatives. One is to let players look at their facedown lands at any time. The other is that instead of playing the cards face-down, you RFG the cards from your hand, and make superdual tokens instead. This would mean they would cease to exist (just like token creatures) if you Gushed them back.

Trickiness #2: Morph creatures. But you're supposed to be using counters on these guys anyway, so just do that here. Not a problem.

Anecdotes:
On the play, I draw my hand of seven. I pass. When it's my turn again, I draw to 8, play seven superduals, and cast Anavolver with both kickers, and ride it to victory!

I have seen someone play a Wild Growth on a land (not as a superdual) in order for his Ley Druid to generate two mana. That was really funny.

Playing with a store's commons box, we both drew Shriek of Dread three turns in a row!


Questions!
1. Shared library or no?
2. How should I handle Gushed lands?
3. Anything else need banning? I'm looking hard at Trade Routes.
4. In a world where tempo is a joke, card advantage is king. How does this affect the play/draw rule?

[Godder]

Questions!
1. Shared library or no?
2. How should I handle Gushed lands?
3. Anything else need banning? I'm looking hard at Trade Routes.
4. In a world where tempo is a joke, card advantage is king. How does this affect the play/draw rule?

1. I think either is fine, personally. Shared Library is good for showing the format to new players, though.
2. Randomly choosing them is fine in my opinion, but another option is to just ban all "ACC=return lands" cards. In a format like this, that's not that big a deal anyway.
3. I think I answered that, but Trade Routes is ok because it stops being a land once it's back in hand.
4. Drawing becomes much better than it otherwise would be. I'm not sure how it affects the rule, though.

Incidentally, I love the idea of the format!

[Franz Ferdinand]

Sounds like a really cool format. I think the shared library would make it a lot more fun, as long as it's a strictly casual format.

Also, Trade Routes would be way too good, not because of the second ability, but because the first ability can allow you to use the cards you play as lands.

[Kowal]

I like the idea of abusing things you've played as lands.  I think that should be fine.  That's how we handle these sort of effects in Mental Magic--  You can look at them and figure out which ones would be the best to return as fresh cards to your hand.

[Matt]

I don't want to ban anything I don't have to. I think I'll go with Kowal's suggestion.

[Norm4eva]

Yeah, you should be able to look at your facedown 'lands' for Gush effects.  Being deliberate about such things adds a new dimension to playing cards like Duress, Stone Rain, Spy Network, Gush and others.
By the way, this format breaks Moonfolk.dec.  Domain's pretty good too :P

[Anusien]

So this is Mental Magic with any number of lands per turn, they have basic land types, and you play the card as written?

Interesting.  I can see it being an uber-limited format of sorts, since evasion and card advantage would be king.  And here's a really freaking good card: Flow of Ideas.

[Matt]

Flow is pretty good, yeah.

"So this is Mental Magic with ... you play the card as written?"

I think it's best to not try and compare it to mental magic. The only thing it has in common is how the mana works.

[Mr. Type 4]

So we have a nice casual format with the old mental magic land rule worked in (although it's on crack since we can do it as manay times as we want) so we can play lots of colors and never worry about Mana Screw.  Sounds good in theory.


So if you're playing with random stacks of cards, why do you have to ban anything?  Just check your random pile real quick and make sure there isn't anything completely retarded in there.  At the same time, it seems like playing with random cards will make a lot of games stupid where players will have a number of cards that aren't doing enough.  I don't know if i can get really all that excited about a format where I should be all stoked about drawing Bog Wraith.  All this discussion about cards like Gush seems off topic unless your intention it to play a contructed format.  With random cards it seems like a lot of games will be lopsided as one player gets some good threats and the other player lays lands for a few turns waiting to play some high CC cards that clogged his hand. 

It seems like this could be really fun if you went in one of two directions: You could make it a "limited card pool format" which is the type of thing I pioneered with Type 4, or other people do when they have special Mental Magic decks that  have a set pile of cards with the casting costs clearly thought out to use. You can get really creative here and make sure we have cards that are really flavorful to the format, like Gush, heck, you might even throw a few gushes in there.  X spells will be really interesting in here as well, as are cards with kicker and entwine because they make you think alot about how you're going to waste other cards to make mana to maximize one spell.  The "which cards become mana" dilemma should probably be the focus here, and when all the cards are potentially cool, figuring out which ones to turn upside down as mana will make for exciting games. 

The other way this could be fun is to somehow make it a constructed format with some special construction limiting rules that keep it from getting out of control.  Don't ask me how to make that all work out, but not ever getting mana screwed sounds like a decent format to me.

[Matt]

You could make it a "limited card pool format" which is the type of thing I pioneered with Type 4

I do in fact keep a 800-ct. box of cards to play limited formats with, including this one. I also keep it highlander. If you think it's too easy to draw the all-Wild Growth hand, then draft the cards. It's not perfectly tuned for this format, which in many cases is a blessing - with every card being usable, it takes too long to decide what to play as a land. Whn you have some business cards and something nearly useless like Elves or Signets, your first plays are obvious, reducing your options, which speeds up the game.

So if you're playing with random stacks of cards, why do you have to ban anything?  Just check your random pile real quick and make sure there isn't anything completely retarded in there.

So far Flooded Shoreline is the only card I've seen that needs banning. Everything else is a one-time use, or can't go infinite. I suppose Trade Routes and a two-mana land or Mana Flare effect could get infinite mana, but that's two cards and you still need a use for the mana. Once the card is in your hand, you can't cycle it, as it's not a land anymore (unless it really IS a Land), so that makes Trade Routes a lot less abusable (still good though).

I banned Shoreline instead of removing it because this is not the only format I use my box for. Also, as I have yet to discover anything else which is basically an instant-win, it's easier to just say "If/when you draw Shoreline, RFG it and draw to replace it" than to dig through a pile of cards. It's not like Type Four which requires a lengthy banned list, because infinite land drops is a lot less abusive than infinite mana (don't take this as a knock against your format, it's just a fact).

I have a strong suspicion that constructed, this format would be ridiculously broken without some severe construction rules (highlander?).

[Mr. Type 4]

(don't take this as a knock against your format, it's just a fact).

I certainly don't take offense to that, so many Magic cards are unplayable in Type 4 that trying to list them all would take forever and would start a million arguments.  Believe me, at the genesis of the format we played with constructed decks and all the argueing is what prompted me to make it work like it does today. 

Anyway, I think your 800 card box is probably pretty cool to play this with because you will end up with completely random games which will be flavorful and interesting.  Personally, I think that slowing down the game to make each choice critical by filtering out a ~this format~ deck stack would not only be challenging, but the challenge would amount to a lot of fun.  I love agonizing over which cards to play, and I love cursing myself for messing up, but I suppose it's a matter of personal taste.  I'd rather my hand be 7 exciting cards instead of 3 exciting cards and 5 obvious face down "super duals".  I think that which cards should become land will become more apparant after people have played a few rounds, and the pace should speed up accordingly. This format will allow you to play games with some of the energy of type 4 without all of the difficult rules interactions and the ability to play with almost all of the cards. Also, Type 4 is really awesome in a decent sized multiplayer, but it's really weak in two player games, this format plays two player games just fine.  I might sit down and try to work up like a 100 card stack and play with my friend one of these days.  I'll let you know how that turns out.

Trade Routes seems fair. 

The real broken stuff is anything that draws cards as they also increase your potential mana production(like drawing cards wasn't good enough already).  These are the cards that need to be carefully policed, especially Gush or Ancestral.  Something like Mind's Eye seems like it could be really lopsided.  Thwart is really good in this.

[Matt]

Yeah, Thwart might be the best card in the box, if there were one in there. ;D

Single-use card draw is good but not dangerously so. Mind's Eye looks scary though. Also Rhystic Study, which actually has been, in my experience, amazing in virtually every casual format ever.

[Mr. Type 4]

Ristic Study sounds like it would be fun.  Whispers of the Muse would be good, too... do you throw down you whole hand to buy it back?

As far as a name, the best I have so far is "Mana Storm"

Do you go to events, Matt?  We should play sometime.

[Matt]

I live in Texas, so I somehow doubt we'll be running into each other anytime soon. A shame, though!

[CCClark]

I'll give this a shot over the weekend with all the players who come out for the tournaments and let you know if we find a problem.   Sounds fun so far.   

Making it constructed would just net you a reason to start banning cards.   I like the idea of keeping it totally random.  I was thinking of borrowing one of the stores common boxes (he separates them by set) and playing from it randomly.  Just reach in and grab something.   We could trade off what set we use each time. 

[Mr. Type 4]

I came up with a new rule that really makes this feel nice and balanced. 

So the special rules are:
1. You can play any number of face down cards as land each turn. 
2.  At the beginning of the game, any player not going first may play any number of cards from his hand face down as land BEFORE THE GAME BEGINS.

This is awesome.  Previously, going first had some real power because you could play out any number of broken things befoire the other person could do anything.  now, everything feel fair, and it adds a new facet to the strategy of the format.

[Matt]

I like the idea, but does it remove too much incentive for playing first?

[Mr. Type 4]

I like the idea, but does it remove too much incentive for playing first?

That's sort of the point.  There is still an advantage to going first, you're the first one out of the box and therefore the first one who has the opportunity to do things like attack with creatures, etc.  In a race for tempo it is hard to argue with the power of going first.  In this format, previous to this rule, I found that it is too much of a bonus to go first.  Getting to draw one more card is seriously weak compared to dropping some land, a bomb, and then leaving up some mana to react to what the opponent does. The first turns in this format can be on par with Type 1 as far as number of important cards played.  This rule fixes a fundamental problem with the game of Magic in general, that going first can be too good.  If you are concerned that going first isn't as good as drawing a card, if you win the roll, you should choose to draw, but I'm sure you'll still see the advantage of going first.  If you're on the draw, you may have to put some cards into play as land that you wouldn't have normally just to make sure you are able to react.  This also makes multiplayer scenarios more fair, where there is no drawback to going first. 

Anyway, Matt, what do you think about the name, Mana Storm? I've been kicking it around, and most people seem to like it.  If you're cool with it, we should get the name of this thread changed, and we can work on promoting the format.  I think this one is a real winner.

[Matt]

That name sounds good. I confess, I never paid attention to how often the player who goes first wins. I'll start keeping track and see if there's a strong correlation between playing first and winning. Though in my subjective memory, I never liked going first because that extra card meant so much.

I'll do some sample games tonight and post them here. That will also let people see how the format actually plays out.

[Mr. Type 4]

Sounds Amesome, Matt.  I'm glad you liked the name, I think it's pretty fitting.  My dilemma now if getting together a good stack of cards to play with with.  I think random stacks are fine, but I also think there is some merit in finding a selection of cards that will be interesting to play with. The difference between this and Type 4, is that Mana Storm is a lot less narrow.  In Type 4 there are numerous cards that simply can't be used because they end the game almost immediatly, on the same token, there are numerous cards that seem extremely weak when mana is not an issue.  Also, Sorceries have to be really really good to qualify for Type 4.  Mana Storm faces none of these issues and beyond a handful of cards that abuse the ability to play infinite lands (Flooded Shoreline) and a few undercosted draw spells (Ancestral Recall is particularly abuseive, it costs like negative mana to play that) most cards in Magic are fair game in Mana Storm.  I dare anyone to build a constructed 60 card highlander Mana Strom deck using the Legacy banned list + Flooded Shoreline that is completely degenerate. 

Because of this, I am at a loss of what I want to include in my mana strom pile to split up into random decks to play around with people.  What I have right now is far from what I really want.  I'll be working on it.

[LordHomerCat]

What about Horn of Greed?  That would seem a little ridiculous, IE run 1 of those, as many tutors as you can to get it, 1 Kaervek's Torch and like 1 Overmaster?  Unless im reading something wrong, couldn't you just drop your whole deck into play as Land and torch them out once you found the Horn?


Edit:  Erm, Highlander eh, I guess that means just 1 Horn heh.

[Matt]

Ok, yeah, Horn is probably banned too.

[LordHomerCat]

How unfortuneate;  you can build a pretty savage looking combo deck when you get all 5 colors, and a free fastbond, and all rainbow lands (which even count as islands for like Thwart!), and like a million draw spells and stuff (hooray for prosperity heh).  Well, back to the drawing board I guess, Tendrils/Brain Freeze combo seems rather easy to make ridiculous, unless im somehow reading the rules wrong.

[Mr. Type 4]

Alright Horn of Greed would be banned.  Anyone figure out anymore?  Nothings comming to mind as of now.  Why play Torch when you could play the one from Dissension that's uncounterable when you have Hellbent. Still, Horn probably should be banned. Let's consider that official. Good pick, LordHomer.  Anyone else got a degenerate Mana Storm card? 

I think Tendrils/Brain Freeze is ok, you're still working a highlander deck with the Legacy banned list.  it's not like you can throw down a bunch of moxes like in Type 1.  You don't have really degenerate card drawers like draw 7s and Bargain/Necro.  You would have Diminishing Returns, which would be savage.  You would need to get off a few draw spells, you have limited access to tutors. I'd have to throw something together before i could say for sure, but i think it would be harder to make Tendrils than it looks. 

I bet Ank of Mishra would be savage, but fair.  I think I know what my constructed deck would be like.  I challege whoever to game of Mana Storm via Magic Workstation.

[LordHomerCat]

You don't have moxes, although you have fastbond and all lands.  You have diminishing returns, prosperity, braingeyser, stroke of genius, skyscribing (Prosperity for XUU), Gush, Fact or Fiction, even cantrips like brainstorm to help you find more cards.  You can run Gifts, Intuition, Ill-gotten Gains, a million random tutor effects since you have all 5 colors of mana...  Oh, and I think I just thought of another card you should probably ban:  Future Sight.  Heh, pretty much the same thing as Horn of Greed, isn't it?

[Mr. Type 4]

I guess future sight is dependant on how we word the land rule.  Future sight itself sounds fair if you can't drop every card off the top of your deck into play as land.  So what if we say, "you can only play cards facedown as land if they are actually in your real hand" 

Gush is banned in Legacy.  The other cards are in my mana storm Tendrils deck, and that deck looks fair from what I can see, although it looks like a lot of fun, it just doesn't go off that fast.  You still need to tap mana to play card drawing, it will take some set-up to get the amount of mana in play you need to go off.  PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG.  I want to play against you.

For all the effort you go into trying to make storm, I could be laying into you with some beaters, or foiling your plans with counter magic and then winning with a solid threat.  I could cripple you with burn.  I don't think you can make your Tendrils deck go off before like turn 4 on average.  These games are going to fierce, no doubt about that, but I think you have a lot of good deck building options.

[Mr. Type 4]

Quick additions the banned list:

Storm Cauldron - DEGENERATE!!!

Goblin Charbelcher

And the full list already includes:

Horn of Greed
Flooded Shoreline

Steve Menendian is going to make a deck, too.  We're really excited to play some games.

[Matt]

Hm, quick rules clarification: the face-down lands do not have a name. They do have subtypes (all five basic land types) but no supertypes - they are not basic, and they are not snow-covered. They can't be turned face-up (for example, with [card]Lifespark Spellbomb[/card] + [card]Break Open[/card]).

[card]Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant[/card] would be incredible if you let the rules work that way, but like with Future Sight, I'm pretty sure that face-up cards will have to be whatever their face-up nature is.

Do you think [card]Hermit Druid[/card] needs to be banned? What about [card]Abundance[/card]? [card]Avenging Druid[/card]?

What if somebody uses a [card]Parallax Tide[/card] on your lands? I think we need to clarify what happens - do they stay RFG because sorceries and instants can't be in play? Do they return to your hand? I think they should return to play face-down.

[Mr. Type 4]

Hermit Druid is banned by Legacy rules, I think it's fair, though. 

I'd say that uber lands that phase out, etc. come back as uber lands.  Good point on that, good clarification about Breakopen, too, I hadn't thought of that.  Let's ammend your rule into the actual rules list:

4. The face-down lands do not have a name. They do have subtypes (all five basic land types) but no supertypes - they are not basic, and they are not snow-covered. They can't be turned face-up (for example, with Lifespark Spellbomb + Break Open).  If they leave play and then return (via phasing or if they were removed from the game temporarily) they return as face down lands.

I'd like to say that they are not non-basic either.

CHA1N5 gave me another banned card: Cloudstone Curio    He is excited about the format.

Abundance is sick, but I think it might be safe, I'll test it out.  Avenging Driud is fair, I mean you have to hit the oppoent to make it work.  It's a powerful effect in the right deck, but I think the power level is high enough for it to be a fair strategy.

My deck is  really sick, but I think it loses to control strategies.  I need to work on fixing that aspect.  Word is spreading fast about mana storm, and it seems like everyone I talk to about it is excited about the possibilities.  I can't wait to play a real game! Goldfishing my deck was a real good puzzle, it'll be sweet in real life.

[Matt]

Abundance and Food Chain might combo very very well together.

Have you given any thought to this as a limited format? I hadn't originally intended for it to be constructed, though that seems to be where the currents of popular opinion are taking it.

I played a couple more games. At least in Limited I see no need for the special "put lands into play on your opponent's turn" rule. I can see where constructed would be degenerate without that, though.

Here's some sample games from my Limited box:

Player A draws:
Spore Frog
Crash of Rhinos
Cat Warriors
Enduring Renewal
Hermetic Study
Mogg Fanatic
Sunforger

Renewal and Fanatic, that's gonna be great. Player A imprints the green and blue cards and casts Renewal. Player B imprints five lands and casts Library of Lat-Nam. I choose to give him the three cards so he won't just get a disenchant effect and ruin my combo. Player A draws a Yavimaya Gnats, which Renewal throws away. Player A plays Sunforger and Fanatic.

Player B plays five more lands, taps all ten, and casts Infernal Harvest, returning all the lands! It doesn't do much with only a Fanatic on the table (which goes to his head for 1), it does get him a ton of mana floating and returns all his imprinted cards for use. He uses all that to play a Tolsimir Wolfblood, Tundra Wolf, Goblin War Buggy, and Funeral Pyre on the Harvest for a Tolsimir-able token, then he plays a land and attacks with the Buggy for two.

19-18

Player A draws a Funeral Charm, turns it into a land, and Fanatics four times, to kill the Tolsimir, but Player B plays Invigorate for free (he controls one super-land) to save it! He untaps, does not pay the echo, draws, Unearths the War Buggy, plays a land and casts Flood, and attacks with everything. Fanatic chumps and sacs to kill the Buggy, taking seven.

12-18

Player A draws and discards a Sabertooth Alley-Cat, Fanatics four times to kill the Tolsimir, and casts Fanatic.
Player B draws, Floods the Fanatic (sac to kill Tundra Wolf), and attacks for one.

11-18

Player A draws a Polluted Mire, plays it as a land, plays Fanatic, equips and detatches Sunforger to get Dismantling Blow to kill the Flood.
Player B attacks with the token, taken down by Fanatic. Plays a land and Ribbon Snake, passes.

11-18

Player A draws and loses Goblin Taskmaster. Plays and equips Fanatic.
Player B draws and plays Victimize, losing the Snake but getting Tolsimir and War Buggy back, and attacks. Player A unattaches the Hammer to get the only target left in the deck, Ramosian Rally. Blocks and sacs Fanatic.

11-17

Player A draw a Veiled Crocodile, plays it, plays Fanatic (triggering Croc) and equips Hammer to Fanatic.
Player B does nothing.

11-17

Player A draws and loses Colos Yearling. Fanatics four times to kill Tolsimir, who makes Voja in response. Player A equips Croc and swings for 8.
Player B draws and plays Foul Imp.

11-7

Player A draws and discards Wormskin Forger, Fanatics the Imp twice, and attacks for the win.