[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[Smmenen]

I started a new thread so that we could discuss the deck outside of the context of my primer. 

Here is what I'd play if I were to play the deck tomorrow:

4 Gemstone
4 CoB
1 Underground Sea
5 Artifact mana - Sapphire, Jet, Petal, Lotus, Chrome

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Troll
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

4 Putrid Imp
4 Bazaar
4 Brainstorm
1 Careful Study

Ancestral
Vamp
ISeal
Balance
Crop Rotation

4 CotV
4 Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Strip Mine

SB:
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
4 Root Maze

This deck is really good. The good players (Probasco and Demars, for example) have all told me as much after Richmond when they finally got to test it.  I asked Andy Probasco (brassman) why others couldn't come up with this list despite trying and he said that people were focusing on the wrong thing.  I have no idea what he meant, but w/e

Note: I thought about Root Mize before Richmond, but I never got to test it (much like Gamble, another card I considered).

I just couldn't cut all the Careful studies, so I left one in.  It's kinda random.  I haven't personally tested Balance, but everyone says its insane.  I believe them.

I have reluctantly cut TIme Walk.  I'd really like to put it back in the deck.

Plus, I like to discuss this deck with y'all.  Talking about decks I created is cool.

Suggestions? 

I know Nataz was continuing to work on this deck.  Anyone else?

[Prometheon]

If the Study is so random and you miss Time Walk, why not just make the easy swap?

[Smmenen]

I'm scared to cut Study.  Study was amazing in my top 8 against Jeff Anand when I played turn one Imperial Seal and Study for Bazaar discarding Darkbalst and one other thing.

Time Walk is amazing, but I just don't feel comfortable without any studies at all.  But its probably the rational swap.

[jeremy_78]

I ve played against a lot of versions of the deck and they are all very good.  How is your oath matchup, if it is one of the weaker ones you could add ray of relevation in the SB of the deck.  That would also allow you to hit planar void (which no one plays) or other problem enchantments that you might run into.

[UR]

I wouldn't do 4 Chain of Vapor but some mix between Chain and Echoing Truth. Because this deck doesn't really want to see a Chalice for 1 because your drawing power will be restricted to Bazaars and all the Tutors will be dead (chalice for two isn't really a problem IMO). Sideboard Truth will be enough though...

[xrobx]

A little while ago when this deck was getting all the hype, I tested it fairly steadily and was going to take it to a local tourney, however I could get all the stupid trolls in time and I hadn't been playing it for months on end, so I decided it was a safer bet to play oath.  My bad.

When I did play it, I found careful study was okay, but breakthrough did a world of difference for me.  A single breakthrough would always net around 15-24 cards for me into my graveyard, and it got around chalice at 1 if need be.  I found that I didn't care about keeping the 2 cards a study would give me, and I'd rather have them in the yard anyways.  So IMHO, breakthrough > study.

Also, in regards to the tutors, often times they were quite useless unless fetching a bazaar.  I know that this is there primary purpose, so that said, I guess they need to be in the deck because they are bazaar number 5 and 6.  They had terrible synergy with the dredge affects, but were worth it simply because bazaar is too broken, and can't be countered when you throw it on the top, then drop it.

Time walk was game ending in most cases.  Aggro decks like to be able to attack twice.

I'd do something like:

-1 thug
-1 study
+1 time walk
+1 breakthrough

In regards to the sb, it looks sick.  I used to play root maze in a RG deck years ago, and it was often a bomb.  Slowing down your opponent only makes this deck seem suprisingly faster, as the deck isn't really affected whatsoever by the maze.

[M.Solymossy]

Some ICBMers were testing this before Richmond, actually.  The only really interchangable part in the list we had was the null rod/leyline spot.  I personally never tested Chalice, as I didn't feel it did enough. 

As Smennen knows though, they do a good job at slowing down IT enough for 3 cabal therapeyou's to screw me... i mean an IT player 

[Gabethebabe]

I posted this suggestion in another thread, but I can't remember where, so I don't know if the idea was found interesting.

With all these Artifacts and Enchantments in the SB I think an Enlightened Tutor in the SB could be good. I see nothing wrong with tutoring for Chalice, Rod, Maze, Needle or maybe even a Seal of Cleansing (replacing a Chain).

The card disadvantage is almost irrelevant for this deck, you have few cards in hand during the match and card QUALITY is what you want.

[Special K]

I used to test this pile shortly after it was released but soon found it needed to Board 4 Ray of Revelation to have much hop in the Oath matchup just because I needed them way to early and found that if I have a open hand bazaar it was hard to ge the mana and a revelation at the same time.

If I were to make any changes to the list posted I would cut the random darkblast as it will be hard to find unless you put half your deck in your yard and if you are doing that there is no way that you will ever be holding a tutor to fetch it. The same could be said for Chain plus CotV at 1 really hurts this deck. I'd rather want stuff that I know I want to cst turn 1 as in Careful study or as noted Earlier Breakthrough in game 1 I think it is more important to always have a strong start as 90% of the decks out there will have very little if no hate for this deck pre-board, because lets face it no one is winning to metagame towards this.  Game 2 however there will be crypts and the like coming in to hate you out, and that is why there are rods in the board.

if I had to make changes to the proposed list it would be -chain -blast +2 study/breakthrough and to te board  I would run something like 4 Ray of revelation 3 Dark blast 3 Null rods 2 Hurkyl's Recall 3 Chain of Vapor, I think the 4 Ray would only be in my board as I expect Oath in my meta and could be an interesting out against Ley line of the Void should it ever be played in anything competitive

[Pitlord]

My buddy and teamate Duby piloted ichorid through a tourney in milwaukee and took i belive 14th out of 32, not great, but decent. Anyways, His changes were:
-1 Careful Study
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Balance
+1 Darkblast

According to him, note, I have never played this deck, balance was a total wrecking ball all day. He said whenever it resolved it basically won him the game because it was a mind twist and a wrath at once. The second d-blast in the main was amazing, as we were expecting lots of fish, and we hit a decent amount of fish. Blast is a house, and it won him lots of games, so it could be considered as a mainboard 2-of. He did miss the thug though, because he occasionly had to remove other ichorids or ashen ghouls just to get ichorid beats online.

He also said that he didn't miss careful study at all. According to him, bazaar, crop rotation, and putrid imp gave more than enough discard outlets, making study seem very weak.

As for the sideboard, I don't remember his, but I like the look of yours, nice job.

[frolll]

Since the Belgian meta seems really distinct of the actual USA meta, I'll post the list of Polskagorrid here, but I don't think a list of this kind is really in the following of MeanDeck ones.
However, you should do at least take a glimpse at the list, for it is, maybe, a distinct deck than MeanDeck Ichorid.

Here's the list:

Polskagorrid: Polskan Frigo Vintage
// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Bayou
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    2  Golgari Thug
    2  Psychatog
    4  Ashen Ghoul
    4  Ichorid
    2  Putrid Imp

// Spells
    1  Mox Ruby
    2  Tolarian Winds
    2  Tolarian Winds
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Cabal Therapy
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Chain of Vapor
SB: 3  Ray of Revelation
SB: 2  Riftstone Portal
SB: 4  Root Maze
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt


The sideboard is to fight against Oath mostly, and Leviat (yes, the deck that is running Form of the Dragon+Solitary Confinement combo), by the presence of 2 Riftstone Portal and 3 Ray of Revelation. These cards are also decent against Dragon, just as the Tormod's Crypt are brutal for the mirror or against MD Ichorid and against Leviat too. Bomberman and Slaver and Gifts don't like very much Tormod's Crypt, too.
Root Maze instead of Chalice of the Void because of the 5 Moxens md, but the side is not the first point I wanna talk about.

The 4 Tolarian Winds of the maindeck are somewhat weird: sometimes it's a card that says game over, sometimes it's über crap. But since the deck runs a lot of artifact mana, the 4 Tolarian Winds are most of the time not bad at all, and sometimes they really say Good Game.
4 Deep Analysis are included for some of the same reasons of the T-Winds. That's 1U 3 life for 8-12 cards dumped in the graveyard, and the loss of life is mostly
irrevelant.

Maindeck Psychatogs are random brokeness; I've already seen a turn 2 kill with a 19/20 Tog.


I won't discuss that long about Polskagorrid, and I hope this list will give you some ideas of how the deck is possible to be tweaked.

[xrobx]

If I were to play the polskalad version, I'd definatly have to cut some of the randomness, but that's not to say other variants wouldn't work.  I could see the polska doing well if it ran something like hermit druid, and say a legacy weapon/DSC so that you activate once, dump your library to the yard, and swing.  This may require you to play less optimal graveyard creatures, however, such as the nether spirit dude so that you can inflict an easy 20 damage in one swing.

Another card that polska seems to be missing, which is glaringly obvious, is wonder.  Why bother with islands if you dont play wonder??

[mgouthro]

Hmm...trying to tie the Polskagorrid back into the discussion of the Meandeck list, I recall Steve mentioning that various members of Meandeck played around with Ichorid lists a few months before Richmond with the eventual result indicating that it just wasn't good enough. I believe one of the problems mentioned was the card "Tolarian Winds".

In Steve's article: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11558.html , he mentioned how the deck never needs to actually resolve a spell to win the game. It looks like the Polska version has the ability to do the same thing, but has less disruption (No Chalice of the Void).

One of the potential problems I see with the Polska version vs the Meandeck version is that you would be more than tempted to keep a hand with no Bazaar or discard outlet beyond Tolarian Winds. Why? Because it could enable a massive dredge and setup a win easily by turn three. However, it could also be countered by Force of Will which would leave the Polska player in top-deck mode. Other problems I could see would be facing a deck that runs Chalice of the Void. Since the Polska deck is a bit more mana hungry, facing a first turn Chalice at zero could be problematic.

An interesting observation that has been made in the past (and currently in the Meandeck Gifts thread) is how the decks that Steve designs are usually very focused on a specific task. This deck appears to follow the same lines. Not having to support Tolarian Winds, less mana sources and more disruption clearly makes the distinction between the two decks.

I do have a few questions though. When Meandeck was originally testing Ichorid decks, what was the determining factor to eliminate Tolarian Winds? Was it the trap of keeping a hand with no discard outlet besides the Winds? Did Ichorid w/ Tolarian Winds have a slower goldfish clock? Was it that easier to disrupt on average? Have you tested Meandeck Ichorid against an Ichorid deck with Tolarian Winds?

Also, after the tournament, it appeared that only Steve decided to run a five colour manabase. The other members of Meandeck ran a configuration to support Wonder. In retrospect, would the other members of Meandeck still run the same mana base, or would they run the five colour version?

[frolll]

I do understand the feeling of randomness when you take a first glimpse at Polskagorrid decklist, and really the deck is much more random than MeanDeck Ichorid. But since I haven't tested one build versus another, I couldn't tell which I think to be the better, or, at least, the more viable in the current meta discussed on TMD, which is different than the meta here in Brussels, Belgium.

But you sure are okay on certain points: Wonder is a must play, and Tolarian Winds make you keep hands without imp/tog/BoB just because you have Tolarian Winds and you count on that specific card to let you setup a turn 3 kill, or at least a nearly kill attack turn.
But, this sure is a flaw when you compare with the MeanDeck build, that the polska list must resolves a spell in order to win the game, and Duress Fow or even Drain are severe shards in your feet... However, is this possible to cut the 2 md Tog for 2 md Wonder and if you go and cut the 4 Tolarian Winds you have two options left, disrupt or engine/kill.
I think if you cut the Winds to put CotV or Duress or Whatever hate you pretty much loose the focus of the polskagorrid... But since you guys want to improve the resilience before the brokeness, it's a potent gameplan.

Then, for a list that use Hermit Druid, I've found that list to have done fourth place at a French Tournament. Let's see:

French Zombies
by
4 - Quentin Anne aka Hautelfe    
MainDeck   
1 Krovikan Horror
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Ichoride
1 Mox Jet
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Zombie Infestation
1 Mox Emerald
1 Life from the Loam
4 Hermit Druid
1 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
1 Darkblast
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ashen Ghoul
3 Deep Analysis
1 Crop Rotation
1 Diamond Mox
1 Chrome Mox
1 Tropical Island
1 Wonder
1 Careful Study
1 Putird Imp
1 Black Lotus
---------
60 cartes   

SideBoard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Darkblast
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ray of Revelation
---------
15 cartes


That's another way to go with Vintage and Dredge, and the 4 Hermit Druid maindeck are a reason to run Nether Shadow...
I think this list could be customized for the american metagame, but we also need to cut some random slots, like the sole Krovikan Horror.


I'm glad to see that people are actually trying new ideas in Vintage, especially because their decks use so many T2 cards!

[Masticor]

The Problem i often face is to get some mana running if you focus in building up the "dredge" machine (especially with oponents playing 5 strip effects). So i am not really sure how powerful the fetchlands cause they are useless when all the targets are already in the graveyard. I was thinking of the inclusion of Life of the Loam at first but you don`t have the mana to use it at any time ( and if you have 2 mana you don`t need it anymore ). You play Deep Analysis in the Polska Version, same here isn`t it way to expensive for this effect, well i didn`t test this version so far and it might be possible with all the mox power.

But i guess it is really necessary to play additional disruption besides 4 therapies if you don`t want to loose the race against combo decks or even control decks like gifts.

Lions Eye Diamond - is something that could fit pretty well in this deck like in the List coming from Belgium.

[Smmenen]

I played the deck for the first time since richmond tonight on MWS and I played some guy playing control slaver in a match.

My opening hand was:

Putrid Imp, Imperial Seal, Chrome Mox, Underground Sea, Ancestral Recall, Darkblast, and Strip Mine.

How in the HELL do you play that hand?  I have a theory about what hte correct series of plays are - and they are very counterintuitive.  I thought I'd give you all a chance to guess first

[Evenpence]

DISCLAIMER:  I have no idea how to play Meandeck Ichorid, although I play Ichorid in Extended.

So, when I'm writing this, I'm not proclaiming to be an authority on the deck at all, and Steve is much more knowledgeable about the deck than probably anyone (although I'll let him disagree if he wants to), so his opinion is probably the best one, although all of us make mistakes.

Going against Control Slaver, I would think that getting a Bazaar online is key, so the real spell in the deck that you want to resolve is Imperial Seal for Bazaar rather than anything else.  So, I would play the hand like this:

Underground Sea - Ancestral (hoping it's forced if he has a force)
Chrome Mox - Imprinting Putrid Imp (or a possible better target that you draw off Ancestral) - Imperial Seal for Bazaar.

This way you have Darkblast to deal with Welders as well as a dredge mechanic all lined up in case you don't draw one off Bazaar.  I don't know though, but this is definitely (currently at least) how I would play the hand against Slaver.

[Juggernaut GO]

Chrome mox imprint darkblast, cast putrid imp.  play underground play ancestral.

you have a discard outlet with the imp and worse case scenario you imperial seal next turn for the bazaar if you didnt draw it off recall.

Plus, you could always have drawn a brainstorm or careful study off the recall, so that means you have bazaar online next turn due to imperial seal + draw spell.

[Pitlord]

I think my play with that hand against control slaver would be somethign like this...
Play underground sea and ancestral myself first main phase. They will more than likely counter it if they can, which is a big indicator. If it resolves, you have a better hand, but I will only work with what you already are given, for purposes of remaining simple and ot getting into statistics. Ancestral, to me, seems like basically bait. It gets you cards if it resolves, and draws a force.

Next I would play chrome mox, imprinting putrid imp. Yes, this shuts off a discard right away, but it allows you to play imperial seal getting bazaar for next turn or the turn after. I say turn after because if they play land, go, I would rather strip mine their only resource available. Just my thoughts...

[nataz]

t1.

Chrome, rfg putrid imp -> Imperial Seal
Fetch chalice to the top of your library
Play the underground Sea -> Recall
Draw chalice, Card X, Card Y.
Play COTV.
Pass the turn

End of t1 your hand looks like:
Card X, Card Y, Stripmine, Darkblast

Your board looks like:
COTV @ 0, Underground, Chrome w/ Black.

t2.
If you draw a bazaar/breakthough/carefulstudy/brainstorm/p-imp on either Card X, Card Y or your next draw step, hott. If the CS player counters the recall with a FOW, w/e you still get the chalice draw next turn. You also have the darkblast to counter-act any active welders, while chalice + strip mine will keep them off tinker mana.

Since I have 4 bazaar + 4 brainstorm + 2 X (either study or Breakthough) and 3 P-imp left in the deck, I have a pretty good chance of just drawing one and going for broke even if I wiff off the recall and the draw step. w/e, the cards I have in hand and on the table should buy me enough time. The only thing I worry about is e-truth at this point.

If they counter the Imperial Seal (which I suppose is certainly possible), then you still have the underground -> recall for the turn. This can be followed by strip mine + darkblast a welder turn 2 if need be. You will have also seen 4 new cards (which will make it like you were on the play), so who knows what will happen.

If they counter the chrome mox, yay, they are a bad player. 

[Tin_Mox5831]

I think you should:

Chrome Mox > Imprint Putrid Imp, Imperial Seal.

A) If Seal Resolves:
Tutor up Bazaar Of Baghdad, Strip Mine, pass.

B) If Seal is countered via Force:
Underground Sea, Ancestral Recall

Imprinting Darkblast against Control Slaver is suicide. Darkblast is the glue that holds this hand together. Tormod's Crypt hurts like hell once, but with Welder recursion, it's lethal. Following this play outline gives you everything you need to beat Slaver. If situation A occurs, you have the trump card for Welders in your hand, reducing Slaver to 59 so-so cards wrapped around a Tormod's Crypt. Their dorks and Slavers are no longer the least bit scary, and Thirst For Knowledge loses a lot of steam. Also, Strip Mine buys you an extra turn after your turn 2, and you have Bazaar online quickly. If situation B occurs, you still have that Welder trump card and you likely have a free Ancestral Recall, which gives you a very good chance of seeing another discard outlet. Plus, If they drop first turn Goblin Welder, the Dredge on Darkblast gives you a milling outlet, making it almost impossible to not hit another Dredge card/ Bazaar next turn.

Later,
Dave

[nataz]

@ tin,

I think you are selling Control Slaver short. You are giving them 2 free turns to work with, and you can only hit one of their land drops. Even with something like a perfect situation A, you wont win till your turn 4, and the only thing you are certain of is nailing one of their lands.

Given the unhindered use of their mana accelerates, its hardly inconceivable that they will find and play the crypt in one of the free 3 turns it will take to win.

By playing the COTV you can pretty much bank on linear mana growth from CS in the first few turns, which gives you plenty of time to get rolling while at the same time protecting you from untimely crypts.

And lets be honest here, if they find a crypt welcome to the loss bracket. Sure, you can play around it, but the game just got terriblly hard when it didnt have to be. This is especially true if they crypt you while D-blast in the the GY (definatly possible considering you are most likely using it to dredge early on).

Chalice means no TFK until turn four, ditto on tinker. And, while they can still use Brainstorm and tutors, the CS player now has to a) find truth, then b) find crypt, then c) play truth AND crypt using only 1 mana growth/turn. Thats a pain w/out lucky top decks. 

.: while the COTV play may seem slower at first, Id rather chance drawing into one of my many draw/discard outlets (bazaar, brainstorm, imp, secondary draw if you run it, 5 color land + cropper, vamp etc.), then trying to draw chalice.
 

[Tin_Mox5831]

Maybe you're right, but here's the crux of the whole situation:

What does Slaver need to have in order to counter your clock?

An active Welder. Without one, several of their cards are weak, and a handful are totally dead. When my threats are all naturally recursive and Welder is a non-issue, am I willing to give Slaver a turn, maybe two, in order to mount my offense? Yep. I think your solution and mine both share some strengths, (Primarily holding on to Darkblast) and I think that both have a chance to pan out. It's just my personal opinion that in order to succeed with an aggro deck, you have to play like an aggro deck, not spend time tutoring for a card that you really don't need. Without Welders, Moxen play a much more low-key role than they otherwise would. Also, early Moxen usually facilitate TFK, which is a lot weaker with Darkblast in hand. If Ichorid can keep Slaver off two things: Mindslaver activations and Crypt recursion, it definitely has a great deal of inevitability in this matchup. If you can shut those two things off, your recursive threats will win the game. Your Darkblast does both of those things for 1 mana.

Later,
Dave

[nataz]

fair enough,
but let me offer an example.

A week ago I played ichorid at myraid games, g1, match 1 vs. CS went something like this.
its my turn two, I was on the play, and the board looks like this.

T2

CS Player: Volc, Volc, Welder
GY for the CS player was fetchland

Me: Bazaar, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal.
GY for me was Ashen, Ichorid, Troll

I pop the lotus for white, play a balance. we discard down to 3 cards. He loses a volc and a welder, while discarding a trike, tfk, and some randomness. I discard dredgeable stuff.

I bazaar, manage to dredge 2 trolls. I then Brainstorm, and dredge a ton more. I now have 3 ichorids, and three ashen + 3 cabal therp in the gy. The CS player is dead in two turns, and he has to fight though Cabal Therp to win. I pass the turn.

T3
The CS player topdecks a demonic, lays a polluted, fetches, plays, and activates a crypt.
GG.

The problem is (and this counts for pithing needle as well as crypt), no matter how much disruption you play, it all ends up being sorcery speed. You have no "counters", and this means there is nothing from stopping the Control Slaver player from investing all of his resources during his mainphase to find a crypt. If a crypt appears in the Control Slavers hand at any point during the game, short of a chalice, there is nothing you can do about it.

This is why its important to slow TFK if you can, because it digs 3 cards deep. Its not about card advantage, its just about cards. This is why you really want a chalice, b/c they have to deal with it before they can even think about drooping the crypt while not letting them see as many cards as they normally would. Also, its not crypt recursion thats the problem (doubly so b/c you have darkblast), rather crypt in general.

[Nastaboi]

Chrome Mox (Imperial Seal), Putrid Imp, discard Darkblast.
Sea, Recall, dredge Darkblast hoping to hit Putrid Imp or Grave-Troll. If yes, continue dredging even more. If no, you draw the last two cards and hope to get something good. If they counter the Ancestral, you are in a bad position regardless of the play made.

Speed is the key. I think that might be what Steve meant to be a counterintuitive.

[mgouthro]

Opening hand: Putrid Imp, Imperial Seal, Chrome Mox, Underground Sea, Ancestral Recall, Darkblast, and Strip Mine.

I'm assuming it's on the play. Otherwise, I'd have to consider if the opponent was able to brainstorm, thirst, drop a welder, etc.

I think my optimal play (or so in my mind) would be to start by dropping the Underground Sea, then casting Ancestral Recall. I'm basically using the AR as bait. This should bring a Force of Will out of my opponent's hand if he has it.

1. If he had the FoW:
Drop the Chrome Mox imprinting Putrid Imp. Cast Imperial Seal -> Bazaar of Baghdad. Barring your opponent casting a Welder, the Darkblast will remain in hand, and you draw and lay your Bazaar. This leaves two cards in hand - Darkblast and Strip Mine. One activation of Bazaar will drop two cards + Darkblast in the grave. I'd prefer to be able to drop a Strip Mine on the follow turn to stunt Slaver mana. Don't activate Bazaar in upkeep. Dredge on draw step for Darkblast, drop the Strip, take out a land. Shoot a Welder with Darkblast if he has it. Activate Bazaar. Hopefully there was at least one dredge card in the two already in there from Bazaar.

2. If he didn't have the FoW:
Well, now I have the following hand: Putrid Imp, Imperial Seal, Chrome Mox, Darkblast, Strip Mine, Card X, Card Y, Card Z. At this point, I know my opponent doesn't have a FoW.

2a. If one of the three cards is a black card:
Then I have what I was looking for, and I'm not fearing a FoW. I will imprint that black card with the Chrome Mox and cast Imperial Seal -> Bazaar of Baghdad. The next turn, I draw Bazaar. Hand: Putrid Imp, Darkblast, Strip Mine, Card X, Card Y, Bazaar. If there are no Strip on the table, drop the Bazaar first. Then cast the Putrid Imp. With a discard outlet already on the table, your opponent is unlikely to counter the Imp if he drew a counter. I did it like this so I would be able to discard the Darkblast to the Imp, then activate Bazaar, dredging the Darkblast to start. This is also if Card X and Card Y don't have dredge.

2b. If one of the three cards is not a black card:
Then this is a rare and annoying case! Let's say that none of them were the Golgari Grave-Troll either. Even worse. I know I really need to dig now. I don't fear the single Strip Mine which is all Slaver usually runs. I need to cast the Imperial Seal for Bazaar. I will imprint the Putrid Imp on the Chrome Mox, and cast Imperial Seal for Bazaar of Baghdad. I don't think I'd keep the Putrid Imp even if one of the cards was the Grave-Troll either.

Those would be my decisions. I don't know the matchup versus Control Slaver so that's what I'd try to setup. It seems more stable to me in the long run than trying to go for the speed. Of course, in scenario 1, if my opponent had another FoW for the Imperial Seal, I'd be pretty messed up. I'd have to wait on a Welder/Shaman to use a Darkblast to start slowly dredging.

[xrobx]

The problem is (and this counts for pithing needle as well as crypt), no matter how much disruption you play, it all ends up being sorcery speed. You have no "counters", and this means there is nothing from stopping the Control Slaver player from investing all of his resources during his mainphase to find a crypt. If a crypt appears in the Control Slavers hand at any point during the game, short of a chalice, there is nothing you can do about it.

Well, there sort of is.  You can stop the CS player by playing 1 of 4 chalices, or 1 of 4 pithing needles.  Also, it's kinda shortchanging therapies and strip mine, crop rotation, and chain of vapor to imply that they won't dramatically impact the CS players game plan of finding these answers in one turn.  If they are building resources, all the better, that gives you more time to effectively utilize therapy.  I hear what you're saying, that you can't respond by countering a crypt, but it really isn't necessary after game 1 I dont think.

[nataz]

If a crypt appears in the Control Slavers hand at any point during the game, short of a chalice, there is nothing you can do about it

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. I realize that cabal therp/chain etc. can be useful over all in the control slaver match, but my comments were directed specifically at Steve's example, and then my response.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well Stephen,

We've bandied some ideas around, so I guess it's about time for you to share your take on the scenario.

Later,
Dave

[freakish777]

I still have to think that Entomb would be exceedingly better than the Thug when you draw it, and only a hand few of times worse when you dredge it and wish it was Thug instead.

That is to say, my hypothesis is as follows:

P1 = probability of drawing and playing Entomb (is something low)
B1 = difference in benefit of drawing Entomb over Thug
P2 = probability of dredging Thug (is something high)
B2 = difference in benefit of having dredged Thug instead of Entomb

(P1*B1) > (P2*B2)

Obviously, I'll need to test this, but theoretically, once you've dredged Thug, you're unlikely to want/need to dredge him seeing as how he's the last guy you want to dredge, and if you've dredged once, you:

A) have a better guy to dredge (that you dredged thug into the yard with in the first place).
B) have a high percentage of having dredged another, better, dredge target into your yard.

The real issue comes down to whether or not having another guy in the yard to get Ichorid out with is that big of a deal, hence the need for testing.