[Single Card Discussion] Mana Maze

[Pitlord]

Mana Maze, as a sideboard card, seems like it has a lot of potential, especially considering it is both cheap to buy, cheap to cast, and can really wreck the storm matchup.

Mana Maze
1U Enchantment
Players can’t play spells that share a color with the spell last played this turn.

This seems like it would own the storm mirror, at least to a player who doesn't play much storm. Arcane lab or in the eye of choas have been standard fare boarding agaisnt combo, but could maze be better?

Is mana maze a true beating, or is it just something that requires more thought to play through? Does the one mana difference in casting cost make a huge difference between this and arcane lab? I think mana maze has potential as a board card, and I am just wondering some other player's opinions, especially those that can really play storm combo.


PS, this secret tech was brought to you by Team Vorpal Bunny's David Carhart, when he actually read mana maze before trading it to a dealer for 10 cents. Way to read your cards Dave... :lol:

[Tin_Mox5831]

It has a neat effect, but I have two questions:

1) How on Earth will you construct a list that can shift the seeming parity of this card's effect on each player?

2) What will you cut from existing lists to make room?

Just a thought.

Later,
Dave

[Juggernaut GO]

Ok, that card kicks some ass.  Time to win a tournament with mana maze :>

Not only would it wreck the storm matchup, but It forces decks to bounce it before winning.  In a deck like stax where you have a ton of threats for your opponent to answer, forcing them to bounce a mana maze before progressing in the game just adds that much more stress to their decks performance.

It acts like an arcane lab, for your opponent only.  Since most of your spells are colorless, they can cast only 1 blue spell per turn?  Sounds good to me.

[Roxas]

Are you guys reading the card correctly?  It says "Players can’t play spells that share a color with the spell last played this turn."  This can make the card significantly backfire in a deck that uses counters, since you will never be able to counter a blue spell.  It also might not even be that difficult to play around; you can easily do something like Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, DT for bounce, bounce, go on to win.  This play would not have been possible under Arcane Lab, and significantly more difficult under In the Eye of Chaos. 

Also, two mana gets you Chalice x = 1.  I can't imagine Mana Maze being better than that against storm combo.

[mgouthro]

Hmm...I thought I was reading the card correctly.

EDIT: Apparently I wasn't!    Chalice of the Void where x = 1 is a superior solution, but in the end, it depends on the deck you are running. It could cut out a lot of your own cards as well.

[Juggernaut GO]

Stax does not run counters.  This card is another lock component that is easier to cast then In the eye of chaos, and has a far greater effect.  This card could never ever backfire against a stax deck.  My point is that any drain deck can play around it's effect, but at the same time, you have to play around stax dropping sphere of resistance, smokestack, chalices, and trinisphere. 

In the eye of chaos never comes down before mana drain mana is up.  As a 2 drop, you can play it on your first turn regardless with land mox, or if your opponent goes island GO, you can just play it on your 2nd turn.

I don't think you fully grasp how bad it is for slaver or gifts to only cast 1 blue spell per turn even if you can possibly get around it by casting a vamp or something in between blue spells.  While at the same time your opponent gets free reign to cast spells all day.  This card also makes tinker un-counterable, unless you board in REB against stax.

Of course chalice for 1 is better against storm combo, but mana maze is a hidden house against drain decks.

[yespuhyren]

We actually had a discussion on Mana Maze and Mana Web, and it seemed like people just didn't like either in comparison to something like Defense Grid

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23950.0

[Juggernaut GO]

Defense grid is in no way a lock piece, and does nothing to stop your opponent from winning the game on their turn.  Mana maze adds disruption to your opponent as well as the same protection of your spells that defense grid offers.  Defense grid isn't bad for a sideboard card in mono red workshop decks just to get some of your spells to resolve, but it doesn't stop your opponent from untapping casting yawgmoth's will and winning the game.

You can't really look  at it as a single card that should "win the game"  Look at it as sphere of resistance 5-8.  More disruption that eventually leads your opponent into a  hard lock they can not get out of.

[yespuhyren]

Yeah, I liked it a lot.  I tested with 3 of them in the SB.  It was pretty good.  The only reason I'm not playing it now is because I am playing Mono Red.  I would definitely SB 3/4 again.

[Pitlord]

I played 5c stax in a tournament yesterday, with 3 mana mazes sideboarded and it housed drain and storm decks all night long. I do not own any in the eye of chaos, and David had stumbled upon maze in his binder the night before, so I decided to test it. I boarded it in against Andy from meandeck, who was playing grim, and he went what does that do? I told him, and he practically cried (not really, but he was on in the inside...). This makes it extremely difficult to combo off, and needs to be played around more than eye in many cituations. Basically it gave me more cards like sphere, that can be played around, but require lots of skill and patience on the part of the oppponent.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Mana Maze
1U Enchantment
Players can’t play spells that share a color with the spell last played this turn.

Speakng of reading your cards, storm can just play around this by casting jewelry and rituals in bewteen blue spells. Meaning, yes they can play more than one blue spell per turn.  And, I think it has been discussed before, like 3 years ago as an addition to Fish(at the time was mostly Mono Blue), as a way to combat counterspells.  I'm not sure if the thread is covered by the current vintage archived forum or not, but it was bad then, and it is bad now.

Edit:I didn't see Roxas post, but yea you can close the thread now.

[Pitlord]

I never said that this was by all means a win card, it is simply like playing more sphere of resistance. Your opponent can still win by playing around it, but isn't that what stax is basically all about? Play a bunch of cards that seperatly make it hard to win, and together they make it imposible to win. Technically, 3sphere, multiple 1sphere's, and this can be played around, but talk to some combo players and they will tell you it isn't easy.

I think most people are looking at this wrong. This is NOT a hard lock piece, this is a soft lock piece, but it can come down turn 1, which is important because it can hit play before drain is up and running.

[assassin]

this card is by all means aggrovating for a gifts or combo player.  With IT and GrimLong you are ofter relying on plays like dark rit, grim, yawg will.  I think gifts is going to have less of a problem with this card but when put on top of strips and spheres it definetly poses a problem.

[Whatever Works]

This card is horrible vs. a skilled player. Good Combo players can easily play around it, and tapping out to cast this is just not great. for 1 more mana you can just play a much better spell and for 2 mana there are much better disruption affects in type 1.

Also the card can be used against you. If your sees that you mystical for yawg will... They can cast a vamp or dark ritual on your upkeep, and there goes your yawgs will for that turn etc...

Kyle L

[yespuhyren]

Something that shouldn't be overlooked, though, is if your opponent sets up a big will, they can cast Will, in response any blue spell, like brainstorm as protection.  Doing this means that it can't be countered, as the last spell played would be blue.  It also lets the combo player have black back (to play ritual)

[roberts91rom]

It works the same for whoever is playing Mana Maze yespuhyren. Don't forget that should your opponent play Yawgmoth's will, you can play a counter in response. This means that the combo player MUST drop a ritual in order to counter your spell. You COULD get screwed pretty badly by gifts though, because when they play Tinker its more or less good game. Maybe a new Gifts or combo deck will come out to abuse this card. I don't think it would be good in Stax or a lockdown deck for example, because you lack the ability to manipulate the stack in order to screw over your opponent.

To me it seems that Mana Maze is a card that you can build a deck around. Maybe Mana Maze storm? 35% blue/35% Black/20% artifact/10% other 3 colors? Probably TPS-based Draw7 deck? Every Draw7 you play should reveal a nice mix of mana-maze cards. I'll post a list soon to show what it would look like, because I g2g now.

[Pitlord]

I really think that this card, although narrow as a lock component, is a decent lock component. Yes, It can be played around, but it takes lots of skill to do so, especially witha deck like IT that can only storm for like 10 exactly normally...

I think manipulating the stack with this card seems like the wrong approach, as if you don't have a hand to support it, it becauses a dead, shitty draw. In prison though you only have a handful of colored spells, and this can act as another card that storm players have to factor in when doing tons of math already because of spheres.

[Moxlotus]

The card is interesting, but is it any better than Pyrostatic Pillar?  Pillar MUST be removed before combo can go off and even hurts the combo player during the turns he is trying to set up a win.  Pillar also neutralizes any sort of mox, mox, mox, rebuild, mox, mox, mox, whatever, whatever, Tendrils option.  Any sort of a clock can make Pillar more lethal than Mana Maze.

[yespuhyren]

Against combo, I would definitely agree that Pillar is better.  It has been a 4 of in my SB as of late, instead of Resistors, because combo like IT has too many answers to artifacts.

[Pitlord]

Pillar is definitly a good answer as well, and definitly needs to be answered, it cannot simply be played around. Thank you for bringing up that very viable point. It has to be answered, or you simply lose if your opponent has nay sort of clock, even if that clock is just a 1/1 goblin. I think pillar is defitly better, and kind of just slipped my mind. This thread is now officially dead. Pillar rocks, everything else is inferior 95% of the time.

[heiner]

It works the same for whoever is playing Mana Maze yespuhyren. Don't forget that should your opponent play Yawgmoth's will, you can play a counter in response.

No. I play Y'Will, it goes on the stack. I get priority first. I play brainstorm it goes on the stack. I get priority. I pass priority. You are not allowed to play blue spells, so the brainstorm resolves. I get priority and pass again. You still are not allowed to play blue spells so the yawgmoths will resolves. Of course you can cast giant growth in between and then counter the Y'Will if its still on the stack.

[yespuhyren]

Yeah, thats the exact same as what I said Heiner.  I wasn't sure what he was saying, but I was pretty sure I was right lol.  Glad to know I wasn't mistaken

[scutakicker]

Yeah, it turns out to be not so great after all. Maybe I'll go test Ichneumon Druid...

[UR]

PS, this secret tech was brought to you by Team Vorpal Bunny's David Carhart, when he actually read mana maze before trading it to a dealer for 10 cents. Way to read your cards Dave...

I've been using this so-called 'secret tech' for over half a year now and after having tested it in many tournaments I've concluded that... IT SUCKS.

I boarded it in against storm deck and they just go; "Intuition, Mox Pearl, Accumulated Knowledge, Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Accumulated Knowledge, Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Tendrils of Agony... sorry dude."

The only decks that this card hurts are decks that you shouldn't be worrying about in the first place. I've kept it in my sideboard because I was too lazy to go look for something else. But after a while you realize that you could easily replace this card with pretty much any decent hoser and end up with a better deck.

[b-tings]

You're right, you could board just about anything else, but that's because you're playing against Storm Combo with Accumulated Knowledge.

[UR]

That was just the first thing that came to mind after writing down Intuition. I don't ever play storm so I don't know what it should be... but the point was clear.