[Single Card Discussion] Ghost Quarter

[ErkBek]

I could see this in Uba Stax to fuction as a strip mine effect, since as we all know basics beat uba stax.

[pyr0ma5ta]

With Fastbond this becomes a very dangerous card. You can wipe out their entire mana base, one land each phase as to prevent them from generating an obscene amount of mana for some crazy last ditch instant.

Ah, now we're talking.  This seems saucy, but Fastbond is still restricted, and this card isn't strong enough on its own to warrent play, I think.

[TK]

I think some people are thinking to narrowly with this card. look at the decks that dont even run basics, Most shop decks, Some combo, then there are those decks that run 2 basics only. I think this card will se play in stax builds but it will require you to run the 4 crucibles. think of how insane this card would be in a stax mere 5 strip mines. i dont know exactly how good the card will be yet it will require quite a bit of testing but if it starts to see play i can see some decks having to up there basic land count.

[Moxlotus]

  look at the decks that dont even run basics, Most shop decks, Some combo, then there are those decks that run 2 basics only.

And then it has a different effect than wasteland how?

[AmbivalentDuck]

9 Strip effects is a *nice* disruption base.  It doesn't have to be better than Wasteland.  It just needs to create additional redundancy.

[Roxas]

  look at the decks that dont even run basics, Most shop decks, Some combo, then there are those decks that run 2 basics only.

And then it has a different effect than wasteland how?

I think his point was that, against some decks, this can act as Wastelands five through eight (Strip Mine six through nine).  While I'm not sure how this can be applied right now, I'm sure someone will come up with a way to utilize it.

I do know that it will probably be pretty good against certain people who run more fetchlands than fetchable lands. 

[yespuhyren]

UBA STAX will have trouble finding room for 4 lands that don't tap for red.  As is, I already wish I could pack in 7-8 more cards into the MD, but what can you do

[TK]

And then it has a different effect than wasteland how?



The fact is that it would be the same effect as wateland. stax most of the time wants to limit there opponents mana base and by adding 4 more unconterable ways to do this the need to resolve a smokestack becomes less of a necessity. also when your playing against decks like gifts, slaver ect. te first thing they usually do against stax is fetch out there basic lands. the quicker ur opponent starts fetching there nasics out of there deck the more powerful this card will become. also with pithing needle seeing play this will give u more ways to get around a needle on wasteland. the matchup for gifts against stax becomes infanately easier when they can through down a needle and start fetching out ther nonbasics, this card could help contend with that problem.  i dont know if this card will be able to be played as a 4 of or not in decks but it will see some play in vintage as to how much success it will have we will have ot wait and see

[Pitlord]

I honestly believe that this card can only see play in two seperate situations.

One situation is in a new version of MUD, which needs only brown mana to win, where this could act alongside strip AND wasteland. That would give mono-brown a HUGE boost, being able to play 9 strip effects is a big boost in tempo.

The onyl other way I could see this being played is in 5c stax, with mainboard fastbond. A 2/2 split would probably be the best in something with fastbond, with 2 each of this and wasteland. That way, against shop decks you still get 5 strip mines, and against drain.dec, you get 2 lands to kill their duals, and 2 to kill anything.

With fastbond, this land can really wreck house. In mono-brown, you get a huge swing form 9 strip effects. In just about anything else, I think wasteland will probably see more play, for a good reason.

[jpmeyer]

The second issue is "Why run this over Rishadan Port?"

[AmbivalentDuck]

The second issue is "Why run this over Rishadan Port?"

That one's easy.  Port requires additional colorless mana *every turn.*  Plus, a destroyed land can't be tapped for mana every turn as an instant.

[Khahan]

Will this cause the eventual restriction of wasteland?

Think about it. The point has already been raised of how powerful a MUD deck can be with 9 strip effects.  Think of a  control deck centered around 4 of these, 4 wastelands, 1 stripmine, 1 fastbond, and a few crucibles with tutors for fastbond and crucible.  You don't even need to worry about having colored mana in your opening hand w/ fastbond if you have a land a Ghost Quarter.  Now, throw in some Null Rods and chalices, a bit of counter magic maybe and a win condition.

The crucible/strip lock just got a lot better and a lot more devastating.

Of course a good player won't necessarily find his basic lands if you have this lock down when the ghost quarter ability resolves. But then, instead of taking him out in one turn, you've still got the crucible/strip lock.

[Implacable]

Like many of the best cards in Type 1, this is by no means broken by itself, but in combination with other cards, it really is.  I would hesitate to postulate that this card will lead to Wasteland's restriction; let's sit back and watch the decks develop around it before we make that call.

[Moxlotus]

The second issue is "Why run this over Rishadan Port?"

That one's easy.  Port requires additional colorless mana *every turn.*  Plus, a destroyed land can't be tapped for mana every turn as an instant.

But Port actually leaves them with less mana right away--this doesn't give your opponent less mana until they run out of basic lands which is probably in 4-5 turns.  Chances are the game is over in 4-5 turns and your disruption didn't do anything to stop them.

[Draven]

Just to remind you all, the new land comes into play untapped.  Wasteland is infinitely better because it can shut down drain mana.

I really think this will be the deciding factor on the card. If the card doesn't come in to play tapped, it has potential to be good. However, If it comes into play tapped, then you are spending 2 turns to not do anything until they are out of basics (so you are looking at 6-8 turns before you are ahead, and they are still getting their land drops.) I am not sure, but that doesn't sound good to me...

PS: To everyone who thinks Fastbond will make this card uber-broken... Fastbond is already uber-broken, you don't need bad lands to do it.

Finally, if you are going to throw 4x Crucible in a deck with Fastbond, you may as well throw a couple Zuron Orbs in the there for the oops I win factor.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Come on, guys.  This card is NOT Strip 5-9.  Wasteland is a permanent 1-for-1 trade, as is Strip Mine.  This card is....a 1-for-1 against some decks, but usually causes them to fetch a basic, which is HARD to remove.  Sure, you could use your crucible and strip it again, but they'll just fetch another basic.  By the time you're done tempoing yourself out of the game, they'll have cast Gifts Ungiven and Tinkered for a big dumb guy, or cast 8,000 spells and then YawgWill, or any number of unfair things.  Sure, this is Strip Mine 2-5 against decks like CA, Dragon, Long, and 5c Stax, but it's also completely dead against blue decks.  Given the popularity of decks with Tendrils and Islands in them right now, I'd have to say this card is just...terrible.  I'm not impressed with huge tempo loss for gain that might happen 4 turns from now, IF I have a Crucible.  I'd rather have Port or, hell, Winter Orb, any day.

Once again, I repeat, the Lands in Uba Stax are all already extremely powerful.  Not a single one of them is cuttable.  There is simply no room for this situational, mediocre, and tempo-losing card.  5C stax doesn't want it either, since they're already gasping to fit enough 5c lands to cast things.  That leaves....Fish as the other wasteland deck.  Fish manabases are already quite tight, and cannot support 4 more strip effects, either. 

[LotusHead]

Do we know that this land comes into play tapped?

[Draven]

Do we know that this land comes into play tapped?

No, we do not know it does, however, Wizards has had a habit as of late to have any land that has any useful ability beyond tapping for mana come into play tapped. There are actually 89 lands that "come into play tapped." I am quite sure this Land will come into play tapped.

[Moxlotus]

Do we know that this land comes into play tapped?

No, we do not know it does, however, Wizards has had a habit as of late to have any land that has any useful ability beyond tapping for mana come into play tapped. There are actually 89 lands that "come into play tapped." I am quite sure this Land will come into play tapped.

I'm assuming he means the new land that comes into play.  Unless it this card says it comes into play tapped, it is untapped.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Would they make changes from the judges' FAQ?  If no, then neither this nor the land they fetch up comes into play tapped.

Anyway, as cool as 9 Strip-like effects would be, it's really the colorless mana that I think will hold this back.  That's half to a third of your mana sources, let alone your lands.  That will severely limit your ability to play colored spells.  Plus, without a good way to reuse it, all you're doing is switching a land for an untapped basic land and using up your own land drop to do that.  If Ghost Quarter gets used, it will get played in a deck constructed around it--artifact based with lots of Crucibles.

I really don't even think people will have to play around it that much.  Unless someone does get you into a lock, which you should be trying to prevent, you'll just take your free basic land and game on.  Other than that, everyone will play one basic of every type they need and the number of decks that play more fetch lands than actual mana-producing lands will decrease.

[Pitlord]

It seems as thought the consensus is that this doesn't seem like a good replacement for wasteland, except in MUD, where this could actually be acceptable. 9 strip-ish effects are pretty solid, so I think people, myself included, will definitly try it out in MUD, where adding colorless doesn't matter for shit.

Also, I am tending to think that even with fastbond this wouldn't be great in 5c stax. I would not crop rotate for this, especially when I can just strip mine. If I draw this with fastbond out, I had better have a decent chunk of life left too, because playing a land like 10 times can hurt quite a bit, just for a shitty strip mine. Seems ok overall, but probably not worth it, in my opinion.

[dandan]

This is a good solid card but it is clearly inferior to Strip/Wasteland. The 'problem' with Vintage is that we look for broken effects and Ghost Quarter is merely good. I'd wager that we will see it is a few successful decks though. If nothing else it gets around Pithing Needle on Wasteland as a back up plan.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this being used on yourself. I can see applications for that too.

[Harkius]

I think that we will see fluctuations of it being used. Right after release, a lot of people are going to try it out. It will be a while before anyone decides to run it in a T8 deck, though. When it does, everyone will rant and rave and say I told you so. Then, they will add a basic land or two to their deck, and decks will become slightly more stable. Almost immediately later, combo decks will be attempted, as the addition of a land or two will slow things down just a little, and people will want to spring combo into that slot. And it will do okay, a little.

In short, Ghost Quarter will be absorbed into Vintage. It will not alter things too very much, I think. Imagine a very large beast riding a unicycle across a tightrope. Ghost Quarter is like throwing a water balloon at the ungainly mass. While it may look ugly and it may look precarious, the sheer mass means that it is going to take something bigger to knock it off its perch. If this puts land into play tapped, or if it comes into play tapped, it will have more or less impact, respectively. Otherwise, pyroma5ta and others are absolutely correct: You will trick yourself right out of the game if you aren't selective about what it is you are doing. You want to play this right, go back to the old wisdom about what lands to target. Knock out a color. Don't blow up lands just because you can. Do it because there is a strategic advantage.

Wasteland will not be restricted because of this. If Wasteland gets restricted soon, they were already eyeballing it pretty hard.

Harkius

[Yare]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this will be a fairly big card for Vintage (see: biggest card from Dissension).  I think you guys are overestimating how many basics people are running out there.  Some decks (although not many) are running NONE, which means they don't even get a land back when you use this ability (i.e., this card is a Wasteland in this situation).  Decks will have to adapt, somehow, if this card has its way.  Crucible, obviously, will help this card a lot.  I am willing to admit that I am not sure how good it will be without Crucible help.  However, expect a moderate to big impact from this card.

That all being said, I could be completely wrong.  However, my gut just says that this will be big.

[Harlequin]

The other aspect which I find interesting for a fish type deck is that, so long as you have basics in your library you can use it as a weak crop-rotation to defend your lands that are being targeted by opponents waste/strip.  Now granted, they are still geting you 1 for 1 (in that you go -2 lands + 1 land, and they go -1 land) so perhaps not that amazing... but it could be used this way rather than have your black or white colors completely shut off for a few turns. 

But again, im not sure the sum of any amount of "weak" versions of already availble abilities and cards will ever be greater than the original cards themselves (if that makes any sense).

[PucktheCat]

If this sees play I forsee a lot of free Brainstorms being played in response to its effect. (free mana and a shuffle.  Why not?)

The interesting thing about this card is how it potentially punishes people for fetching out all their basics.  All the other non-basic hosers out there (Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Crucible/Waste) reward players for having basics on the board.  This card rewards having basics in your library.  If this sees any play I expect it to create some interesting questions about when it is correct to fetch your 4th basic.  This is just another card, by the way, that should encourage players to leave their fetchlands unpopped as long as possible, because you will want to be very careful about what you fetch out in a game where Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, and Strip Mine are all in the picture.

[Harlequin]

Any ideas on what sort of deck could ever support Wasteland and Ghost Quarter in mulitples?? Even mono-brown doesn't want all that because it needs to run 4 workshops + 3-5 tombs or traitors, to support the insane mana curve. 

Terravore.Dec?  Sounds rather terrible.

Although it had a good run with Terravore.dec when I could play 4 Trinispheres.  That was tech.

[cssamerican]

Harlequin, I think it would have to be a one color deck. Exploration and Fastbond are needed to make the card broken, so that would be the direction I would go with in my testing.

[brianpk80]

Like many of the best cards in Type 1, this is by no means broken by itself, but in combination with other cards, it really is.  I would hesitate to postulate that this card will lead to Wasteland's restriction; let's sit back and watch the decks develop around it before we make that call.

It bears noting that Strip Mine was restricted when Wasteland was released.  Consequently, there was quite an incentive to buy up that expansion.  Printing Wasteland and immediately restricting Strip Mine was an obvious Tempest sales ploy.  I wouldn't put it past them to do the same with Dissension.

-Brian

[Implacable]

Like many of the best cards in Type 1, this is by no means broken by itself, but in combination with other cards, it really is.  I would hesitate to postulate that this card will lead to Wasteland's restriction; let's sit back and watch the decks develop around it before we make that call.

It bears noting that Strip Mine was restricted when Wasteland was released.  Consequently, there was quite an incentive to buy up that expansion.  Printing Wasteland and immediately restricting Strip Mine was an obvious Tempest sales ploy.  I wouldn't put it past them to do the same with Dissension.

-Brian

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think that, especially with the FV/TV removal and subsequent Type 1 uproar, such a sales ploy would not slip by so easily this time.