Time for maindeck graveyard hate?

[piertoni]

Most of the strongest archetipes abuses graveyard:
Gift
TPS
Stax
Dragon
control slaver
grim long
psychatog

We can also add the recent Friggorid

on the countrary we have some decks that don't abuse grave recursion:
Fish and wu-tang
Oath
Aggro in general

A consideration that comes to my mind is that, as we make a line beetween archetipes, we can see that ALL the most succesfull archetipes USES graveyard recursion.

As most of the decks uses grave-recursion the question is... why don't we use maindeck hate?

I think that the best example comes from "the mountain wins again" that locks down the opponent with a combination of artifact-graveyard hate. The new point is the use of 4 maindeck tormod's crypt that really proved to be strong.

So, first question is, grave-hate maindeck: good choice?
Second question is: kind of hate (tormod's? coffin? leyline?...) and decks that can support it.

Another good question is "could the addition of grave-hate make fish stronger?"
This seem an important question as fish is probably the most common budget deck and is having a really bad period.
As fish is usually played by a large % of players every successfull improvement can have a large impact on t1 community.

Piertoni

[Harlequin]

As far as the graveyard hate in fish question goes.  I'm not sure what option you would main deck.  Assuming you stick to null rod ... your options are basically [card]Honor the Fallen[/card] [card]Funeral Pyre[/card] or [card]Grip of Amnetia[/card] which clearly are all terrible.

[zeus-online]

Rich shay (TheAtogLord) has a Tormod's crypt in his maindeck (Control Slaver...in case someone missed the "news")...so this isnt exactly a "new idea" .....not sure why other people havent done so? I threw a crypt into my deck, and it has been savagely GOOD....every time i cast it my opponent is like "shit...what do i do now?"

/Zeus

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I think Withered Wretch is the best form of graveyard hate around. It has a Crypt and a bear together. Although the mana devotion can be intensive it certainly is better then a lot of cards mentioned for aggro. Lest we forget if you fill up your deck with a bunch of hate cards like TMWA you have no clock or relative pressure, just a bunch of dorky cards that your opponents draw engine will get around in a matter of two or three turns.

I don't think Tormod's Crypt is exactly right for aggro, but it certainly is an amazing card.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I totally agree about Wretch.  He's the best kind of creature--a threat and an answer rolled in one.  I think the only place he really fits, though is UB Fish or some variants of MBC.  For other decks, the double black is just too much.

Having targeted graveyard removal is the best, though, so maybe Cremate or Ebony Charm could be run in more decks.  Casting Charm for Lotus and two Tutors in response to someone's Yawgmoth's Will is a pretty good job. It helps keep Welder and Crucible in check too.

Though I'd hate to put Leyline of the Void in my deck, Planar Void has some utility and is seeing more play too.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Planar Void is a thousand times worse then Leyline. You do realize your opponent can TFK and then activate welder bringing in that Mindslaver. And we all know well enough one activation of Mindslaver is usually enough.

Planar Void also can get countered. Leyline only works against your opponent as well,so you can have a strategy that involves using your graveyard as well.

[zeus-online]

Wretch is superior to any other grave yard hate i've seen so far...unfortunetly the mana cost is pretty bad! getting BB is pretty hard for any deck who would want to run him in the first place....which pretty much leaves Tormod's crypt.....and the crypt has, as already mentioned a terrible synergi with null rod (and potentially chalice)

/Zeus

[vroman]

jacob riehm's dawn of the dead deck runs 3xw-wretch main. wretch wrecks ubastax. turns off welder, crucible, threshold; leaving me w atleast half my game plan offline and no access to removal.

[Gaagooch]

I agree that tormod's crypt is the best answer to graveyards, and yawgs will in general, however, they are just something a gifts player has to answer before attempting to go off, they are just a little problem that can easily be delt with, and in most cases a good player will play around crypt in the effect that they will make you use it before it actually matters to them, i know i do and i have won many a game through tormod's crypt.

[Meddling Mike]

I feel it's important to point out that certain decks can handle maindeck graveyard hate better than others.

Allow me to explain:

Control Slaver easily finds space for a tormod's crypt because even in the event that it does indeed come up as a "dead card" it can be shuffled away using brainstorm/fetch or shuffle, welded out by a welder if no other artifact is available for welding or pitched to a thirst for knowledge. It's important that when you add narrow hate cards like tormod's crypt to make sure that it won't be dead weight in your hand.

[Pitlord]

I agree with maddling mage in a way. Lots of decks that could use t-crypt as part of their plan or disruption really couldn't because it can create a dead card. In control it can always be welded, fetched, brainstormed, tfked, impulsed, etc. away. In a fish mirror though, you could end up kicking yourself.

Most decks, mainly those that aren't drain-based, need some sort of other utility to use grave hate well. Something like shred memory or wretch are the best options in general. Wretch can be hard to cast, but swings for 2, and shred memory can act as a tutor for a tutor at the worst. Cards like cremate that provide a little grave hate and soem other acceptable affect are probably next best for decks like fish. But narrow, graveyard only cards can often result in a fish deck drawing that in the mirror, which is a major dead card. And as we all know dead cards=BAD.