Randy B on Time Vault Errata

[Tha Gunslinga]

I do not own any Time Vaults, nor have I ever. However, maybe you can tell me how many Time Vaults were sitting in the binders of WotC employees? Then tell me how many you had Randy, because it must be more than just 1.

  Personally I think that Starcity Games bought time vaults for more then they have before and got a lot of them and then a month ago when Wizards was going to make the formal announcement SCG got greedy and paid off Wizards to delay the announcement so they could get rid of their excess supply of Time Vaults at a much higher price.

Can you people please stop being TOTAL FUCKING MORONS?

Hasbro is a multi-BILLION-dollar company.  Starcitygames already makes absurd amounts of money buying low and selling high, just like every other dealer out there.  Randy Buehler probably pulls down several hundred thousand dollars a year (at least) as head of R&D.

The amount of money to be made off speculating on Time Vault was surprisingly little compared to what these people and companies make already.  There was no conspiracy.  Pull your head out of your ass.

[jpmeyer]

I do not own any Time Vaults, nor have I ever. However, maybe you can tell me how many Time Vaults were sitting in the binders of WotC employees? Then tell me how many you had Randy, because it must be more than just 1.

  Personally I think that Starcity Games bought time vaults for more then they have before and got a lot of them and then a month ago when Wizards was going to make the formal announcement SCG got greedy and paid off Wizards to delay the announcement so they could get rid of their excess supply of Time Vaults at a much higher price.

Can you people please stop being TOTAL FUCKING MORONS?

Hasbro is a multi-BILLION-dollar company.  Starcitygames already makes absurd amounts of money buying low and selling high, just like every other dealer out there.  Randy Buehler probably pulls down several hundred thousand dollars a year (at least) as head of R&D.

The amount of money to be made off speculating on Time Vault was surprisingly little compared to what these people and companies make already.  There was no conspiracy.  Pull your head out of your ass.

I think that there were only something like 15,000 ABU rares ever printed (5,000 A/B and 10,000 UL).  If WotC had every single Time Vault ever printed and sold them all for $100 (UL) and $200 (A/B) they would've made a grand total of...$2,000,000.  That's if they had EVERY SINGLE ONE THAT EVER EXISTED.  Which means that they would've had to have been planning this THIRTEEN YEARS IN ADVANCE.

[Jacob Orlove]

I posted this on the Meandeck forums, but I figured I'd see what people think of it here, too:

"Why now?" is a question I don't have a great answer to, but I do have an ok aswer. The truth is that we only update Oracle when new sets come out. The details of database management mean we can't realistically implement a change, run it through editing, get Gatherer updated, etc more often than about every three months. So we accumulate changes and release them all at the same time whenever we are adding a new set worth of cards to Oracle anyway.

I actually think that last sentence implies an answer to question #4 ("How do I know you won't do this again?"). It is extremely rare for Oracle updates to affect tournaments. It's so rare that not only do you guys not know our schedule for updating Oracle, but *I* didn't even know the schedule.

This is good to know--I had perceived the oracle updates as being extremely erratic, and had not connected them with new set releases. It's extremely unfortunate that there is no way to synchronize oracle updates with B/R updates, because you need that offset to evaluate the B/R decisions properly.

If there was some way you guys could be much more public about oracle updates and rules changes, and more transparent about what kinds of issues you're looking at going forward, that would do a lot to remedy the current situation, I think. I know that "Ask Wizards" and Magic Arcana seem like convenient places to publicize stuff, but it's really not a good way to get information like this to players--forcing us to hunt down not just the actual changes, but your announcements of them as well, is extremely inconsistent with pretty much every other aspect of your player relations.

So, a few concrete proposals:
1) A site like the DCI B/R list page that lists cards and rules that have just had functional changes to them (and maybe a section for cards that get cosmetic changes like new creature types--I was surprised when a gatherer search turned up horrible hordes as a spirit, for example).

2) A concrete update schedule for oracle wordings (and ideally for the comp rules too). Once every three months is fine, as long as we know in advance. I'm looking for specific calendar dates here, ideally as "the 1st of months A, B, and C" the same way you do restriction announcements on a fixed schedule.

3)Some kind of advance warning if cards are going to change. We get a month before B/R announcements take effect, but here we had three days before the card became worthless. In this case, it might have to be something like "we're looking at time vault and these other cards, and their functionality may change", even if you can't yet say how. That kind of warning would let people decide for themselves if they wanted to risk owning a vault, instead of getting them instantly devalued.

[Godder]

So, a few concrete proposals:
1) A site like the DCI B/R list page that lists cards and rules that have just had functional changes to them (and maybe a section for cards that get cosmetic changes like new creature types--I was surprised when a gatherer search turned up horrible hordes as a spirit, for example).

An overhaul of creature types was 'announced' as coming up in a recent column on mtg.com. I haven't seen any update on that as such, but with Dissension being released, it's not suprising that it entered Oracle recently (assuming they finished it, of course).

2) A concrete update schedule for oracle wordings (and ideally for the comp rules too). Once every three months is fine, as long as we know in advance. I'm looking for specific calendar dates here, ideally as "the 1st of months A, B, and C" the same way you do restriction announcements on a fixed schedule.

3)Some kind of advance warning if cards are going to change. We get a month before B/R announcements take effect, but here we had three days before the card became worthless. In this case, it might have to be something like "we're looking at time vault and these other cards, and their functionality may change", even if you can't yet say how. That kind of warning would let people decide for themselves if they wanted to risk owning a vault, instead of getting them instantly devalued.

I realise not everyone pays attention to these things (RB included!), but given how big a task updating Oracle looked to be, the obvious time to do it was when they entered a new set, since they were there anyway. Occasionally huge updates are made (Auras), and they may well be made separately, but I had noticed that updates to Oracle tended to coincide with new sets being entered. Making any errata functional from the same date that the new set becomes legal in Constructed would make sense, though.

On a more practical note, bans and restrictions smack people in the wallet no matter how and when they happen. If Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad were restricted in the next list, it would have a similar effect from the point of view of a dealer or collector. Realistically, cards are devalued the day the announcement is made, almost irrespective of when it's actually implemented. For a card to be really valuable, it has to be in short supply and high demand, which usually only applies to powerful old cards, about which it can hardly be claimed that we didn't know that power level was a potential issue, nor can we really be surprised when cards like that are restricted or banned as the case may be.

Also note that the creation and support of Legacy has boosted the market for a lot of cards that otherwise would have continued to gather dust. While Wizards taketh away from time to time (leading to much wailing and gnashing of teeth), Wizards also giveth from time to time as well (which should lead to much cheering), even without mentioning the obvious fact that a lot of people make a lot of money out of the existence of Magic and Wizards.

[combo_dude]

On a more practical note, bans and restrictions smack people in the wallet no matter how and when they happen. If Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad were restricted in the next list, it would have a similar effect from the point of view of a dealer or collector. Realistically, cards are devalued the day the announcement is made, almost irrespective of when it's actually implemented. For a card to be really valuable, it has to be in short supply and high demand, which usually only applies to powerful old cards, about which it can hardly be claimed that we didn't know that power level was a potential issue, nor can we really be surprised when cards like that are restricted or banned as the case may be.

One point to bear in mind is that restriction, from a Vintage perspective, would have had no influence at all on the card's price - the thing that seems to get to everyone is not even that it's become entirely useless as a card, but that they had several months with the combo working, thus making the reasonable assumption that the combo wasn't going to be touched except in a B/R announcement. What they should have done is to say that "We're going to change this at some point, but we're not sure when we're going to implement it - just letting you know in advance", because the thing that I don't buy about RB's explanation of "Why now?" (as most of the rest of it makes sense, and Rich and others have queried the other points I take issue with better than I would) is that whether or not he knew when the Oracle updates took place, the way he tells it, they knew it was going to happen at some stage several months ago, yet did nothing to inform people. If they wanted to change it, then at least telling people about it before the combo generated massive interest (and fairly soon after it came into existence) would have resulted in a much smaller angry mob hammering at the Hasbro door.

In short, if they clear that bit up about the way they errata cards - that as soon as they know it's going to happen eventually, they tell people, even if it works for a little while - I don't think there's any real cause for concern.

Adam

[The Atog Lord]

I'd just really like to know if Time Vault or Mana Vault will be changed to match the other. After all, the cards are supposed to have been changed to match their initial wording. And the cards have the same wording. And now they work completely differently. This is about restoring things to how they were worded, isn't it? It is the time counter bit I find so hard to swallow.

[Harlequin]

The arguement that WotC did this for some monetary conspiricy is crazy talk.  As many have pointed out.  Also I don't see the thread where people are complaining about how much money they made when they bought timevaults for $50ish when flamevault was on the spoiler list... and resold them in the past few months.  Those type of speculative buyers either hit it big, or not so much.  For Example, when I say Izzet Guildmage on the spoiler list, I went out and bought a play set of Resets... speculating that a reset guildmage combo would become a viable T1 deck .... It didn't so I traded the cards at face vault.  Oh well, no big loss.  Had the combo took flight, I would have made money on my speculation.  I'm sure there are plenty of ppl who BOUGHT Timevaults FROM stores and FROM SCG at around $50ish right before Fuslide debuted, then waited a few months and resold them.

About the timeing issue.  He straight up answered it!  I don't know how you all precieve the WotC office building, and workers.  But I highly doubt they are all just sitting around scheeming about card prices and playing wastepaper basketball.  I'm sure they had a tons of decissions and deadlines that had Higher priority then the errate of timevault getting pushed to the gatherer database.  You don't think that with the release of more game mechanics in 1 block than any other previous block save the alpha block... that they several things on thier plates bigger than errating a non-degenerative combo piece printed 10 years ago?  They are a buisiness, with workers, and cubicals, and meetings, and deadlines, and overhead, and this-that-and-the-other-thing.  they have to prioritize thier tasks just like any other business.  And lets face facts here, vintage is lower on thier priority than most other things.  Why? because they do not make money on vintage.  Does this automatically mean they do not care about us? No.  But if you honestly beleive that WotC should be prioritizing T1 higher ... well you better be doing 60 hours of vollenteer work a week, otherwise your thinking is offly hypocritical.

[PucktheCat]

This is about restoring things to how they were worded, isn't it? It is the time counter bit I find so hard to swallow.

As you have rightly pointed out, if the only thing WotC is concerned about is returning to the way the card "should work," they would have to reconsider not only the time counter but a whole bunch of other errata from Urza's block era and before.

It seems very understandable that they would set aside these "power-level errata" cases for separate consideration, apart from the overall decision to try to make cards work like they are written.  You seem to be saying that the latter decision dictates the former, but the considerations behind the two decisions are not the same.  Power-level errata, by definition, involves cards that proved to be a problem, at least at one point.  Returning to original wording is an easy case when there is no evidence that the original wording is broken, but it is more complicated when there is such evidence.  Done properly, removing the time counter would be more along the lines of unrestricting a card than changing its errata.

Personally, I think it would be kind of cool if power-level errata went away.  But I think that that decision should be evaluated on its own merits, not cast as a logical corollary.

[Harlequin]

I think if they took off the power level errata, the vault would end up on the ban list.  they banned becasue of a 3 card combo (animate + Instill) because THAT was too powerful.  Now you have Voltaic Key and Galvanic Key, and a slew of onetime use cards like twiddle.   March of Machines + Voltaic Construct could be your win condition.  Throw that into Turbo-Staff Combo and you would have an all artifact combo deck with two different winconditions that are highly Synergistic. 

This card would end up being banned because of it's shear raw power, and it's ability to completly cut off "Interaction" (that wizards adimently defends) with your opponent by takeing unlimited turns.  It would be as if Timewalk had buyback ... Just broken.  Even if it was only restricted... It would make a great 1-of  secondary win condition to a staff deck that already runs voltaic key, staff of dominance, and possibly voltaic contruct.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I totally agree on updating any errata to make cards perform in the way they were meant to.

But in the case of vintage, most of the cards in our format see play because they don't function in the way that they were designed to and instead are totally better.  I think everyone is used to playing with the "broken" cards (theres nothing wrong with that).

I feel bad for the people that own vaults

I personally don't care about the errata either way

I do like that Wotc still actively goes through older cards and re-evaluates them.

Have a nice day.

[combo_dude]

I'd just really like to know if Time Vault or Mana Vault will be changed to match the other. After all, the cards are supposed to have been changed to match their initial wording. And the cards have the same wording. And now they work completely differently. This is about restoring things to how they were worded, isn't it? It is the time counter bit I find so hard to swallow.

Indeed - if you ignore the time counter section, then TV and MV now are worded in a similar way as they should be. This is whether or not they match the original wording; Wizards should seek to be consistent above anything else. They need to answer the time counter issue, which they also haven't done yet.

[Harlequin]

seeing as how boths cards are vaults:

[Time Vault -- Mana Vault]

[Time Vault Comes into play tapped -- Mana Vault Comes into play with a Vault counter on it]
At the begining of your upkeep, If ~this~ is tapped, you may [skip your next turn -- pay ] to untap ~this~ and put a Vault counter on ~this~
Remove All Vault Counters from ~This~, : [take an extra turn -- add to your mana pool] you many only use this ability if there is a vault counter on ~this~

Templating problem solved.

[dicemanx]

I think if they took off the power level errata, the vault would end up on the ban list.  they banned becasue of a 3 card combo (animate + Instill) because THAT was too powerful.  Now you have Voltaic Key and Galvanic Key, and a slew of onetime use cards like twiddle.   March of Machines + Voltaic Construct could be your win condition.  Throw that into Turbo-Staff Combo and you would have an all artifact combo deck with two different winconditions that are highly Synergistic. 

This card would end up being banned because of it's shear raw power, and it's ability to completly cut off "Interaction" (that wizards adimently defends) with your opponent by takeing unlimited turns.  It would be as if Timewalk had buyback ... Just broken.  Even if it was only restricted... It would make a great 1-of  secondary win condition to a staff deck that already runs voltaic key, staff of dominance, and possibly voltaic contruct.

If the Time Counter was removed from the errata, and Time Vault subsequently restricted, I don't think we would have that great of a problem. Any three card combos won't be powerful enough (MotM and Voltaic Construct for example), so that just leaves Voltaic Key and Twiddle effects. So how bad is a cheaply costed, two restricted card instant win combo?  It's not entirely clear, although a deck like BMG would immediately benefit for sure.

[Harlequin]

Oh yeah I didnt eve think of that... that just makes the "combo" a million times worse.  Just replace Flaming Fusilade with Voltaic Key... and now you can tinker for both sides of the combo, you can basically drop red almost alltogether, and its cheaper mana.

Yeah definately would get banned.

[Jacob Orlove]

Banned in Legacy, maybe. They don't ban cards in Vintage for power reasons.

(Fixed. Obviously the ante and dexerity cards were implied exceptions, but whatever.)

[bomholmm]

The following cards are banned in Vintage tournaments:

Any ante card
Chaos Orb
Falling Star


I know its a technicality but there are banned cards in vintage.

[That0neguy]

With time vault w/o the time counter look at this gifts pile:

Time Vault
Voltaic Key
Regrowth
Yawgmoths will

That stack requires 6 (7 if they gave you will or regrowth) mana to win the game during your first mainphase after an eot gifts and if you have lotus or somthing in the yard it only takes 4 mana.

In addition this combo would be completly unaffeted by the restriction of time vault or key because they would only be played as singletons.  This would directly lead to the restriction of Gifts ungiven and possibly merchant scroll.  Am I entirely against this? No.  But is it really worth gutting gifts ungiven decks for a card that really was a mistake to begin with.  To people arguing against the time counter the I hate errata part of me says let me play with that extremly broken time vault,  However the part of me that thinks that this combo is just to crazy considering it could be acheived by a workshop and a mox says that this combo shouldn't work.

However I do agree that all other power level errata should be removed.  At least from what ive seen the only thinks that have received the errata are thinks that add mana/untap lands when they come into play and white instant that makes 3 2/2s for 3 mana which could give aggro a boost towards being playable again.  I hardley see why any of these cards should still be errated.  I highly doubt that any of the cards that ive seen with a power level errata would break T1 if unerrated (except time vault that think is just stupid as printed)

[Jacob Orlove]

Of course, without the time counter, you can still have a replacement effect wording that negates the Vault/Key interaction.

[Greistal]

I already posted this on StarCityGames, but I see rbuehler posting here, so I will reply here also.

I really dislike when WotC "over-errata" the cards.
To me, errata should be kept to the minimum necessary to avoid the card being degenerate, by preserving every other use of the card.

Another example is Waylay. If you want to avoid the degenerate use of the card, simply add a "Don't play during EOT" clause.
Instead, they added a "Play only during combat" clause that stops a lot of other non-degenerate tricks such as playing it in your 1st Main Phase and enchanting the tokens with some Haste-granting aura.

To me the cards had other uses beyond the degenerate combo that were better preserved! For instance using it once in your opponent EOT with a Stasis or a Smokestack in play... Hell, I even played it in sideboard against Stax!

Now the card is useless.

Please, Wizards, try to save most of the uses for a card when issuing an errata!
Greistal

[SpencerForHire]

Now the card is useless.

The card was always suppose to be "Useless."  Not every card is suppose to be a cog piece in a combo and not every ABU card is competitive.  For a time this was a cog piece and was competitive in deck slots but now that it is where it is "suppose" to be, we should just get on with it and break something else.  Cmon guys, you can still run 4 Tarpan in every Eternal format!  Let's show wizards the err of their ways and break the damn thing.

[Methuselahn]

The thing about this card on it’s own, and as it reads with the errata today, is that committing yourself to losing your next turn during your upkeep is horrible.  Greistal implies this briefly. You have to be able to decide at the end of your opponent’s turn if you are going to untap Time Vault in order to abuse it on its’ own merit.  If you untap Time Vault with this new ‘original intent’ then you’re telling your opponent that he has the rest of your turn, and two more turns before you untap again.  This is critical.  Waiting until the end of your opponent’s turn to untap Vault means that you give up a card and land drop, sure, but you now have the choice to not untap it if you had to use your mana to Counterspell a nasty threat. If you didn’t have to use that counter and it looks safe to untap Vault, then do so.  This way, you are not telling your opponent to get double the mana out of his lands.  This option allows you to be much more flexible, and thus makes Time Vault a card with some marginal value.  With the current wording today, the card is just plain bad all around.  It hands over so much tempo and is way too risky to use. I really have to question if this newest version (anti-combo with an upkeep activation) is really reflective of the original intention or not. 

Take a look at all the cards in Alpha/Beta and even AN/AQ that have synergy with Time Vault, for the sake of original intent.

Animate Artifact + Xenic Poltergeist – These two cards are lumped together because they are redundant.  Was Animate Artifact and Instill Energy/ Time Vault designed to be a combo?  They say no, but this is still a  ‘fair, 3 card combo.’  It looks like it was intentional to me.

Instill Energy – Untaps creatures.  Critical to taking infinite turns. Paralyze – Really, really bad Instill Energy redundancy, maybe for that mono black infinite turns deck??   

Stasis – Like I mentioned before, if you don’t have the option of untapping Time Vault at the end of turn, then Vault is really bad.  So, this original use is rendered crappy.

The control deck and abusing Time Vault on it’s own merit – This has been rendered all but dead. 

So if none of these above uses were intentional, then what is it?  Was it really intended to be completely balanced for both players and a worthless investment of 2 mana and one card on your part?  What’s the original intent in making this thing rare?  Is it rare because they knew it sucked so hard and that everybody didn’t want tons of them?  Please say no, because that is the lamest thing ever.  Moreso than Tarpan, easy.

Oh, and as far as Time Vault goes versus Stax, it’s horrible.  In order to use it against them, they have to ramp up Smokestack to a suicidal level.  And only after they do this, then you play Time Vault.  Often, it is way too difficult to fight Stax when they have a smoky out with 2 soot counters.  Casting a main step Time Vault becomes unwieldy and there are better, instant speed answers anyway.

[Machinus]

Mana Vault works just fine with Voltaic Key. Time Vault should have the same functionality. If "original intent" has ANY meaning at all, it should be the intent of the designers who put twiddle and time vault in the same set together.

Hell, then it would actually make sense for key to be restricted.

[Anusien]

Wizards doesn't have an obligation to make cards that are playable, and they often like making cards that seem unplayabel and then let people try to break them (One With Nothing, which has seen high-level tournament play).
I love the "it looks like this unwieldy three card combo which builds off basic concepts" was intentional.  That logic is really good.

Machinus: That logic only makes a certain amount of sense.  I don't know enough about the development of Alpha to know how much the different developers (if there were any) collaborated.  I don't know if Twiddle is intended to be able to take an extra turn.

[Machinus]

I don't know enough about the development of Alpha to know how much the different developers (if there were any) collaborated.  I don't know if Twiddle is intended to be able to take an extra turn.

I guarantee you no one in Alpha development could have told you what a time counter was. It says "tap, take an extra turn," so even with the arcane functionality of rules back then, this interaction had to have been known to the designers. In all likelihood, it wasn't that big of a deal, since you could just play Time Walk and not have to assemble a 2-card combo. Anyway, the point of this example is that the rules team claims they understand the "original intent" of the designers, but their changes don't really have any basis in the original cards. Time counters were instituted purely for power reasons, and they have nothing to do with Alpha design.

[jro]

So, a few concrete proposals:
1) A site like the DCI B/R list page that lists cards and rules that have just had functional changes to them (and maybe a section for cards that get cosmetic changes like new creature types--I was surprised when a gatherer search turned up horrible hordes as a spirit, for example).

2) A concrete update schedule for oracle wordings (and ideally for the comp rules too). Once every three months is fine, as long as we know in advance. I'm looking for specific calendar dates here, ideally as "the 1st of months A, B, and C" the same way you do restriction announcements on a fixed schedule.

3)Some kind of advance warning if cards are going to change. We get a month before B/R announcements take effect, but here we had three days before the card became worthless. In this case, it might have to be something like "we're looking at time vault and these other cards, and their functionality may change", even if you can't yet say how. That kind of warning would let people decide for themselves if they wanted to risk owning a vault, instead of getting them instantly devalued.

Thank you for posting the sanest thing said in this whole sorry mess.  What Wizards as a whole and Randy in particular seem to have missed in their concern for the long term health of the game is that players need to have faith in the value of their cards.  I'm speaking of both monetary and play value.  Investing money in expensive cards for Eternal formats seems a dicey proposition when the value of your cards can change so drastically.  Perceived cost is already one of the major factors keeping players away from Eternal formats; that problem should not be compounded by taking on financial risk.  In regards to play value, tracking down that one strange card from an older set because of some strange interaction it has would seem like wasted effort if a new wording update can come out of nowhere to spoil your fun.  So, more than anything, it would be nice if Wizards could find a better system for notifying players of these potential changes.  It took a long time for the B/R process to reach the well-regarded state it is in today.  It would be nice if Wizards could apply some of their successes there to the process of Oracle changes.

[Liam-K]

With time vault w/o the time counter look at this gifts pile:

Time Vault
Voltaic Key
Regrowth
Yawgmoths will

That stack requires 6 (7 if they gave you will or regrowth) mana to win the game during your first mainphase after an eot gifts and if you have lotus or somthing in the yard it only takes 4 mana.

In addition this combo would be completly unaffeted by the restriction of time vault or key because they would only be played as singletons.  This would directly lead to the restriction of Gifts ungiven and possibly merchant scroll.  Am I entirely against this? No.  But is it really worth gutting gifts ungiven decks for a card that really was a mistake to begin with.  To people arguing against the time counter the I hate errata part of me says let me play with that extremly broken time vault,  However the part of me that thinks that this combo is just to crazy considering it could be acheived by a workshop and a mox says that this combo shouldn't work.

However I do agree that all other power level errata should be removed.  At least from what ive seen the only thinks that have received the errata are thinks that add mana/untap lands when they come into play and white instant that makes 3 2/2s for 3 mana which could give aggro a boost towards being playable again.  I hardley see why any of these cards should still be errated.  I highly doubt that any of the cards that ive seen with a power level errata would break T1 if unerrated (except time vault that think is just stupid as printed)

I'm not sure if you've heard, you can make the pile yawgwill/recoup/tinker/timewalk and win the game with 7 mana on your next mainphase after an EOT gifts.

key/vault/will/regrowth is safe.

[heiner]

I'm not sure if you've heard, you can make the pile yawgwill/recoup/tinker/timewalk and win the game with 7 mana on your next mainphase after an EOT gifts.

key/vault/will/regrowth is safe.

Nope. Your configuration is never a secure win as a smart opponent will always put Time Walk into the yard so you can walk only once. The only imediate Collossus kill is made up of Y'Will/Recoup/BurningWish/Demonic Tutor AFAIK and goes like this:

Opponent puts Demonic+Burning Wish into the graveyard so you have to recoup your Demonic, for Tinker, for Colossus, then flashback recoup for burning Wish getting Demonic, getting Time Walk, then Time Walk, then Y'Will, then TimeWalk. Costs a LOT mana as you see.

Better combos are:
- Will/Recoup/Fussilade/TimeVault (requiring 11 mana, with Will+TV in the yard)
- Will/Recoup/Charbelcher/ManaSeverance (requiring 14 mana, with Will+Belcher in the yard)

As you see the mentioned TV+key combo is MUCH cheaper than all currently availlable gift combos.

[PucktheCat]

Nope. Your configuration is never a secure win as a smart opponent will always put Time Walk into the yard so you can walk only once. The only imediate Collossus kill is made up of Y'Will/Recoup/BurningWish/Demonic Tutor AFAIK and goes like this:

Well, once you get another turn and a Yawg. Will you will very frequently be able to pull up Burning Wish to finish the job.  But I guess some builds don't play B-Wish.

But you are right, this combo is probably better than Tinker/Walk (although both Tinker and Walk are better on their own).  The only disadvantage is that you need some other way to actually kill your opponent, even if it is just a Gorilla Shaman.  BMGifts would probably want to find a slot for either Burning Wish/Tendrils or some utility that can kill your opponent if this combo became real.

[Matt]

Beware the Rod of Ruin beatdown!

[Jacob Orlove]

Nope. Your configuration is never a secure win as a smart opponent will always put Time Walk into the yard so you can walk only once. The only imediate Collossus kill is made up of Y'Will/Recoup/BurningWish/Demonic Tutor AFAIK and goes like this:

Opponent puts Demonic+Burning Wish into the graveyard so you have to recoup your Demonic, for Tinker, for Colossus, then flashback recoup for burning Wish getting Demonic, getting Time Walk, then Time Walk, then Y'Will, then TimeWalk. Costs a LOT mana as you see.

What's wrong with Will/Recoup/Tinker/Demonic? You can recoup demonic for walk, walk, will, tinker, walk. Of course, if they give you Will in hand, you should just win the game--the actual kill is mostly irrelevant.