Dissension in Type 4

[Mr. Type 4]

This is what I am trying in my T4 stack from Dissension.  Other people's stacks probably support a number of the cards differently than my stack does, especially the split cards.  I think that Bound//determined would be good if it were easier to have creatures in play(it's pretty challenging to get anything good to live very long in my type 4)

So here it is:
Protean Hulk
Vigean Intuition
Voidslime
Azorius Guildmage
Swift Silence
Crime//Punishment
Odds//Ends
Research//Development
Trial//Error
Muse Vessel
Prahv, Spires of Order
Rix Maadi

And I want to try Tidespout Tyrant, might be good.

[carlossb]

Why not Bound//Determined?. It´s an instant regrowth, or a cantrip in the worst scenario.

Simic Sky Swallower (6/6 flying trample can´t be target) seems a decent creature.

Biomantic Mastery is very powerful, but if you say your creatures don´t survive enough time...

Your others choices were also mine.

EDIT:
Other powerful cards to consider:
* Dovescape: Fun, combos with some cards (Boseiju...)
* Aethermage´s Touch: with creature decks.
* Wrecking Ball: another Fissure-spell
* Hit//Run: more Hit than Run.

[RaZe]

My Dissension Picks are

Azorious Guildmage
Crime/Punishment
Dovescape*
Govern the Guildless
Haazda, Shield Mate
Hellhole Rats
Hide / Seek
Hit / Run
Muse Vessel
Novijen Sages
Odds / Ends
Phrav, Spires of Order
Pride of the Clouds
Protean Hulk
Pure / Simple
Research / Development
Simic Sky Swallower
Swift Silence
Tidespout Tyrant
Trial / Error
Voidslime
Wits End
Wrecking Ball

Forecast would have been a stronger mechanic in T4 if only the forecast abilities were better. But having an uncounterable 1/1 every turn that doesn't count towards your spell for the turn seems to be complete card advantage.
Phrav is another utility land [which makes it harder to deal with] that acts as a Maze of Ith on pretty much everything.
Novejan Sages is included simply because creatures have an end of turn life span in my build and so drawing 2 cards would be a pretty nice return investment on the mana and turn I spend casting the damn thing.

[Mr. Type 4]

I do have wrecking ball... I think it missed my list because I actually own one already.

As far as Bound//determined I feel like it might be a bit too conditional in my build.  I have to sacrifice a guy, and I might not even have one to sacrifice.  Determined is useable if you play fantasy card "Decree of the Creator", but is very limited.  Bound, I suppose could be real cool in response to comething that removes my guy, I just think it might be a bit weak, but I do have Reclaim in my deck, so it's not that the effect isnt good. 

I'm really really afraid to put Dovescape in my deck just because it's almost impossible to destroy.  I'm not sure i want a card that forces "bird war endgame", although it does sound somewhat interesting.  As of now, the only cards in my deck that can destroy Dovescape once it's in play are Angel of Dispair and some sort of combo involving Boseiju.  Of course, you just needto resolve something like Memnarch or Masticore and you'll probably win post Dovescape, but i have a feeling that most players will be apprenhensive about putting it into play because it will cancel out a large portion of thier hand. 

I think the Forecast effects are too marginal for my stack.  Even though they are essentially free, I could really care less about making a 1/1 each upkeep... I just don't get real excited by that.  It's unfortunate that none of those cards came out very good, because that mechanic had the potential to be as good as "when you cycle this card..."

Novijen Sages is ok... Raze, are you playing Skullclamp?  That's way better than Sages, Doug Linn calls it "creature insurance" because you get some cards whenever your guy gets killed (which is usually inevitable).  If you have some other +1 +1 stuff ,this guy could actually be good, though.

Simic Sky Swallower is probably better than some guys I have in my deck right now, I should hunt through and cut some chaff out and replace with that guy. 

Hellhole rats would be a lot better if they didn't get to pick the card.  I'm sure you can probably make some combos out of it, but I'm not sure it's good enough.

Hit//run is probably good enough.  Both abilities are definitly useable, Hit certainly has some merits as removal for regenrators/untargetables/indestructables

I think Pure//simple is too limited for a sorcery.  Does anyone play a lot of auras or equipment?  Enough multicolored cards to justify a sorcery that only destroys them when you could play Desert Twister or Vindicate which would hit anything(not to mention instant speed targeted removal that would be more versitile)?  I'm just not sre either of these abilities makes the cut, and the versitility of being able to do either doesn't make it much more appealing. 

Govern the guildless might be good if you can justify a good use for the forecast.  The sorcery speed creature stealing seems a bit weaksauce. 

Haazda is redundant in my deck which already contains superior cards: Combat Medic, Glarecaster, 8.5 tails, Shield of the ages. I just don't think more of that effect is necessary.  if you're missing some of the above, then he might fill a solid defense niche.

Wit's End- It was of popular opinion to cut all Mind Twists from my deck except creature based ones (Hypnox, Nicol Bolas.  Black Myojin is removed for more serious games, but is okay if we're just messing around).  Maybe you like that stuff, but we generally found it too harsh, and made the game less fun.  Black Myojin seems more broken, but it does it to most of the players so it causes them to rally against the person who did it, and that's still fun.

Biomantic Mastery is only good if you can get some good targets out of it.  I think Rush of Knowledge is better, and i don;t use that either.  I do use Heed the Mists, which i think is good because it's difficult to decide weather or not to counter it because you don't know how broken it's going to be, which often causes it to slip past counter magic.  I'm SURE that Biomantic Mastery fits well in some Type 4 decks, just not mine. 

[RaZe]

I don't run skullclamps. I have put every viable spot removal in the stack. And they're all instants. So my equipments have to be better than that just that. I only run 2 Equipments - Sword of Paruns and Tatsumasa. I like Novijen cuz would either draw a counterspell, or it nets me 2 cards when I choose. Even after chum blocking a 14/14 Multani.

You're right about Dovescape. That is why it has the "*" sign in the end for it. It's not that it makes all the othher spell in the stack useless. It becomes a battle of High CC cards. I run Boseiju and AoD so it might see play. It depends. But considering I run Biorythm and Sway the Stars...it's nice to have a bit of random WTF effect to the board. It's all in the sport of F@#$ing up the game from nowhere. We then to do that a lot in our games. 1/5 of the time, our matches end with someone getting the upperhand from a ridiculously messed up situation like Sway for the Stars and drawing Urza's Rage after. Biorythm is always a good way for speed the game up. Cards that completely warp the whole boardstate is something we like.

Forecast as a mechanic is nice for T4. Just that the effects printed aren't worth it. But with how the first 5 creatures of every player being countered of killed at EOT, having an uncounterable 1/1 every turn which can only be dealt with via discarding the card from my hand can go a long way, especially as the game progresses longer.

I put hellhole cuz it reminds me of Agonizing Demise. I hate dying to that card. Almost all discard effects are sorceries, but this one give damage. And considering T4, the cheap spells are usually utility spells like removal. It's a 2-1 effect as you get a creature too. I get a 2/2, I discard StP and deal 1 dmg from their hand...so next turn I can feel safer for my Serra Avatar. Plus imagine that creature with Kiki-Jiki?


Pure // Simple - oops, I thought it killed enchantments. Just auras. NVM then.

Sorcery creature stealling is weaksauce? Hmm...almost all creature stealing is sorcery as far as I know. From Bribery to Control Magic. Only Dominate comes to mind when it comes to instant-stealing effects. I like it how it's un-disenchantable like Treachery and such. The forecast isn't really anything. So I have to forcast it to grab Tsabo, big deal.

[Necrologia]

Sorcery creature stealling is weaksauce? Hmm...almost all creature stealing is sorcery as far as I know. From Bribery to Control Magic. Only Dominate comes to mind when it comes to instant-stealing effects.

Off the top of my head there's also Ray of Command, Flash Conscription, Grab the Reins, and the bomb that is Reins of Power. Nothing like Reins of Powering the guy who just played Crush of Wurms last turn.

[CwaM]

What i think about all these cards:
Insane so can't be played
Wit's End

Really very good
Haazda, Shield Mate
Azorious Guildmage
Crime/Punishment
Govern the Guildless
Hit / Run
Muse Vessel
Odds / Ends
Protean Hulk
Research / Development
Swift Silence
Voidslime
Prahv, Spires of Order
Simic Sky Swallower

Not really convinced
Hellhole Rats
Wrecking Ball
Tidespout Tyrant

[Mr. Type 4]

Dominate and Grab the Reins are the ones I had in mind.  Reins of Power is definitly interesting, but is less of an instant as it must be cast in the combat step, still, the effect is pretty potent.  I agree that since this effect is a sorcery and not an enchantment that it makes it more powerful, definitly worth reconsidering on my part, although I've found that even the more powerful Blatent Thievery doesn't see much play out of my build, but maybe it's because it hates on everyone, so it's more likely to get countered.  Is Govern the Guildless better than Confiscate?  Bribery is in a different category, in my opinion, because it lets you tutor your opponent's deck and take their best guy, MUCH better than this effect which can only target a creature on the board (and with protection abilities, Bribery can capture a number of creatures that Govern the Guildless can't touch).  It also is still good in the early game when there is nothing good to take on the board.  I think we can agree that Bribery is well worth playing despite the sorcery speed.

@CwaM I agree that hellhole and tidespout are questionable.  They have a good amount of potential, though, and are probably worth playing around with just to see.  Wrecking Ball on the other hand seems universally good.  Unless you don't think you need more targeted removal, but it seems like WB can replace a lot of other targeted removal cards.  It doesn't have the "nonblack creature" stipulation and as a bonus it could destroy a land.  It doesn't prevent regeneration, so it's not quite as good as Fissure (Fissure is also better because it's only red which saves it against ProBlack and Trial//Error) but few targeted removal spells are as good as Fissure. 

[RaZe]

Sorcery creature stealling is weaksauce? Hmm...almost all creature stealing is sorcery as far as I know. From Bribery to Control Magic. Only Dominate comes to mind when it comes to instant-stealing effects.

Off the top of my head there's also Ray of Command, Flash Conscription, Grab the Reins, and the bomb that is Reins of Power. Nothing like Reins of Powering the guy who just played Crush of Wurms last turn.

All of those cards are temporary 'steal' effects. Granted it's awesome, but I'm talking about stealing stuff permanently. So the card is a sorcery...think of it as casting a creature of yours, but with the side effect of your opponent loosiing his. It would get counter either way of it was a creature of importance. Heck, if the only card they have in hand were a spot removal, then they might be forced to kill their own. It's quite a tempo swing when it resolves. If it doesn't, it's just like they countered a creature you were playing.

@Mr.T4
Hellhole is gonna be a questionable inclusion. It's not an all around card. I would disagree with Tidespout though. Remember the spell doesn't have to resolve, it's a triggered ability. Play a spell, and you stack the bounce effect automatically. There is nothing like casting StP on opponent2s DSC, and bouncing your Duplicant back to hand at EOT.  Considering how very few permanents everyone usually has, I Tidespout is an awesome include if it gets to survive past your EOT. And Blatant Thievery is awesome. I mainly use it as a counter bait. If it resolves, well...just grin at your opponents as you take their stuff. Enchantment stealing cards are there for tempo swings. It nets you a creature, takes one from your opponent and is a virtual time walk cuz it pretty much negates the turn your opponent used to cast that particular creature.

[Mr. Type 4]

I agree with your opinins about Tidespout.  The only problem is that it's no good if it's the only legal target in play, you can't play spells unless you want to bounce your tidespout.  Still, it's probably awesome. 

I decide to put Govern the Guildless in.  The forecast combos with Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast and the main effect is not an enchantment so it doesn't go away.  Sounds at least worth trying.

I played a few games with Dissension in, but we didn't see many of the cards.  Simic Sky Swallower was a house, though.

OH, by the way, we're allowing Research to get any card that has been RFGed, reguardless of weather or not it's in your deck.  This has a sweet interaction with Tatsumasa the Dragon's Fang, and is a killer combo with Withered Wretch.

[DeadHead]

After looking at the spoiler these cards stand out to me:

Psychic Possession 2UU
Enchantment - Aura 
Enchant opponent
Skip your draw step.
Whenever enchanted opponent draws a card, you may draw a card.
--> Brutal draw engine. It will suck if the opponent decides to draw so much that you cant handle it no more.

Tidespout Tyrant 
Creature - Djinn 
Flying
Whenever you play a spell, return target permanent to its owner's hand.
5/5

Wit's End 5BB
Sorcery 
Target player discards his or her hand.
-->A card waiting to get Shunted / Radiated.


Nihilistic Glee 2BB
Enchantment 
2B, Discard a card: Target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
Hellbent - 1, Pay 2 life: Draw a card. Play this ability only if you have no cards in hand.
--> Seems pretty strong to me. Im curious how this will turn out to be. It might be too strong with big piles and little lifegain.

Stalking Vengeance  5RR
Creature - Avatar 
Haste
Whenever another creature you control is put into a graveyard from play, it deals X damage to target player, where X is the power of that creature.
5/5
Fire!

Protean Hulk 5GG
Creature - Beast 
When Protean Hulk is put into a graveyard from play, search your library for any number of creature cards with total converted mana cost less than or equal to 6, and put them into play. Then shuffle your library.
"Meat and eggs. We eat!" -- Borborygmos
Illus. Matt Cavotta
6/6
--> Very nice card to look up your tech creatures. Or a Voidmage + Sakashima !

Loaming Shaman 2G
Creature - Centaur Shaman 
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.
3/2
--> It can mess with your opponent's strategy or shuffle back your hotness.

Cytoshape 1GU
Instant 
Choose a nonlegendary creature in play. Target creature becomes a copy of the chosen creature until end of turn
--> Funky!

Pain Magnification 1BR
Enchantment 
Whenever an opponent is dealt 3 or more damage by a single source, that player discards a card.
--> Really strong, an enchantment that most likely will be countered / destroyed asap.

Rain of Gore  BR
Enchantment 
If a spell or a ability would cause its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead.
--> Not as game-ending as False Cure since you will not gain life with this in play. It does change the state of the game tho.

Swift Silence  2WUU
Instant 
Counter all other spells. For each spell countered this way, draw a card.
--> Good counter to get rid of these huge stacks.

Voidslime GUU
Instant 
Counter target spell or activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)
--> Sooo hot.

Wrecking Ball   2BR
Instant 
Destroy target creature or land.
--> Very solid card

Bound 3BG // Determined   //  GU
Instant 
Sacrifice a creature: Return up to X cards from your graveyard to your hand, where X is the number of colors that creature was. Then remove this card from the game.
//
Other spells you control can't be countered by spells or abilites this turn.
Draw a card
--> Either an instant speed regrowth+ or a cycle. I think its very decent

Crime 3WB // Punishment   //  XBG
Sorcery 
Put target creature or enchantment card in an opponent's graveyard into play under your control.
//
Destroy each artifact, creature and enchantment with converted mana cost X.
--> Cards like this make me cream my pants.

Odds UR //Ends 3RW  // 
Instant 
Flip a coin. If it comes up heads, counter target instant or sorcery spell. If it comes up tails, copy that spell and you may choose new targets for the copy.
//
Target player sacrifices two attacking creatures.
--> <3

Pure 1RG // Simple 1GW // 
Sorcery // Sorcery 
Destroy target multi-colored permanent
//
Destroy all equipments and auras.
--> Im just a sucker for split cards.

Trial WU // Error BU  // 
Instant 
Return all creatures blocking or blocked by target creature to their owner's hand.
//
Counter target multicolored spell.


Muse Vessel  4
Artifact 
3, T: Target player removes a card in his or her hand from the game. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
1: Choose a card removed from the game with Muse Vessel. You may play that card this turn.
--> Very annoying, very good

Prahv, Spires of Order 
Land 
T : Add . to your mana pool.
4UW, T : Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you this turn from one source.
--> Yet another great land



Maybe's:

Brace for Impact 4W
Instant 
Prevent all damage that would be dealt to target multicolored creature. Put a +1/+1 counter on that creature for each 1 damage prevented this way.
--> It might be too narrow. I have to check the amount of multicolors in our staple.

Haazda Shield Mate  2W
Creature - Human Soldier 
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Haazda Shield Mate unless you pay WW.
W: The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn, prevent that damage.
1/1
--> The staple is quite defensive as it is and this will not improve the aggressiveness of the pile.

Ignorant Bliss 1R
Instant 
Remove all cards in your hand from the game face down. At end of turn, return those cards to your hand, then draw a card.
--> It might be useless too often, but I like the effect a lot.

Indrik Stomphowler 4G
Creature - Beast 
When Indrik Stomphowler comes into play, destroy target artifact or enchantment.
"The howl of the Indrik has a destructive power more subtle than its crushing leg. The sound is banal, but inaudible vibrations scramble and break magic defenses."
Illus. Carl Critchlow
4/4
--> Nothing great, but a nice addition to most piles.

Omnibian 1GGU
Creature - Frog 
T : Target creature becomes a 3/3 Frog until end of turn.
--> It might suck too much, but it made me giggle.

Pride of the Clouds   
Creature - Elemental Cat 
Flying
Pride of the Clouds gets +1/+1 for each other creature in play with flying.
Forecast - , Reveal Pride of the Clouds from your hand: Put a 1/1 white and blue Bird creature token with flying into play. (Play this ability only during your upkeep and only once each turn.)
1/1
--> If you're the token kind of person

Simic Sky Swallower 5GU 
Creature - Leviathan 
Flying, trample
Simic Sky Swallower can't be the target of spells or abilties.
6/6
--> A solid beater, dunno if its good enough tho

Biomantic Mastery   4G/U G/U G/U
Sorcery 
( can be paid with either  or )
Draw a card for each creature target player controls, then draw a card for each creature another target player controls.
--> For a creature pile.

Dovescape   3W/U W/U W/U
Enchantment 
( can be paid with  or )
Whenever a player plays a noncreature spell, counter that spell. That player puts X 1/1 white and blue Bird creature tokens with flying into play, where X is the spell's converted mana cost.
--> Will it kill the game? Or will it make a game more fun?
(If you're going to add this to your pile, make sure to include the Indrik Stomphowler as well.)

Hide RW // Seek WB // 
Sorcery 
Put target artifact on the bottom of its owner's library
//
Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game. Gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
--> Good enough?

Hit 1RB // Run 3GR // 
Instant // Instant 
Target player sacrifices an artifact or a creature. Hit deals damage to that player equal to the sacrificed permanent's converted mana cost.
//
Each attacking creature you control gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking creature you control.
--> I dont like it a lot, maybe you do?

Research GU // Development 3UR // 
Instant 
Shuffle up to four cards you own from outside the game into your library.
//
Put a red 3/1 Elemental creature token into play unless an opponent lets you draw a card.
Repeat this process two more times.
--> To bring back removed cards?

Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace 
land 
T : Add  to your mana pool.
1BR, T : Each player discards a card. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.
--> Does it slow the game down too much?

[Mr. Type 4]

Psychic Possession 2UU
Enchantment - Aura 
Enchant opponent
Skip your draw step.
Whenever enchanted opponent draws a card, you may draw a card.
--> Brutal draw engine. It will suck if the opponent decides to draw so much that you cant handle it no more.

The ability is a "may"  if you can't handle it, don't draw.

I'm pretty sure Simic Sky Swallower is better than a "maybe" it's probably better than most creatures in the game at any mana cost.

[DeadHead]

I'm pretty sure Simic Sky Swallower is better than a "maybe" it's probably better than most creatures in the game at any mana cost.

True, its a very decent beater. But still, its a creature. And creatures tend to die. So imo, if it doesnt have a big abiliy like Bosh / Voidmage Prodigy I wouldnt rate the creature too high. But yeh, its a solid beater.

And it seems I didnt read Psychic Possession

Im curious tho, what do you think about Nihilistic Glee 2BB?
Is it too good?

[carlossb]

I'm pretty sure Simic Sky Swallower is better than a "maybe" it's probably better than most creatures in the game at any mana cost.

Azorius Guildmage is more broken. And also combos with Dovescape!! 

By the way, Dovescape has multiple "outs", like Masticore (and "ping" creatures), Azorius Guildmague, Crowd Favorites...
You don´t have to destroy it or play non-creature spells with high casting costs, but creatures with those abilities.

[CwaM]

Psychic Possession
Tidespout Tyrant
Wit's End
Protean Hulk
Swift Silence 
Voidslime
Wrecking Ball   
Crime // Punishment   
Odds //Ends
Muse Vessel 
Prahv, Spires of Order 
Haazda Shield Mate 
Simic Sky Swallower
Hit // Run
Azorious Guildmage
Govern the Guildless
Hellhole Rats

That's what I like the most at the moment, but need to test some of them like rats, tidespout tyran..

[Mr. Type 4]

Azorius Guildmage's ability is amazing,  BUT she's fragile as hell. She even dies to Suffocating Blast.

I wouldn't consider Masticore an "out" to Dovescape, as much as it is a way to dominate the Dovescape situation.  Still, not as good post-Dovescape as Memnarch.  Dovescape is certainly a matter of taste.  I know people that like to play with Humility and Peacekeeper.  I'm just not one of them.

[Mr. Type 4]

So this stuff has been out for a while and I've played a lot of games with it so here's a follow up report:

I tried these cards:

Azorious Guildmage - Amazing.  This guy shuts off the whole board and puts you in control of the action.  This card feels like something we needed for a while as a counter to a lot of really powerful activated abilities.  The best card in Dissension for T4, an auto-include for all Type 4 fans out there, it should be solid in any stack.

Voidslime - So versitile, one of the best counters you can draft.

Swift Silence - This one is tricky, as you often don't want to counter every spell on the stack, but drawing cards will make you feel better, and this has a lot of potential to be a huge gamebreaker.

Praav - Underrated, extremely strong, hard to remove, uncounterable.  Praav is great card to help you survive until the end game.  It's a lot like Panacea, but the fact that it prevents all the damage and not X actually makes Praav's effect slightly superior.

Odds//ends - Surprisingly good.  This card actually puts people in some awkward situations.  I lost a game because I couldn't use Misdirection against this card (odds) once.  It's not hard to find a situation where either outcome of odds will be in your favor, particularly vs other counterspells.

Simic Sky Swallower - Solid.  This guy is big and difficult to deal with, pretty good.

Crime//Punishment - Crime seems to be the better side, but both are really good.  Pretty good for being sorcery speed.

Hit//Run - Probably better in type 4 than any other format.  It's easy to put a good Hit on someone.  Watch out if you have Aladdin's artifacts, Draco, DSC or GLEEMAX.  Run mostly sucks, but hit is plenty good enough to justify its inclusion.

Research // Development - Crazy. We allow research to take ANY RFG card, including ones from decks of players who are dead, or even things like Tatsumasa, the Dragon Fang.
Development seems good, but Research is so good, you'll probably never cast it.

Wrecking Ball - As expected.  Typical removal spell

Muse vessel - Unimpressed.  I took this out.

Tidespout Tyrant - This guy hasn't lived long enough for me to know if it's good yet.

Protean Hulk - This guy hasn't really had a chance to effect the game when I've played. lots of potential, though.

Govern the Guildless - We hated it, maybe you'll like it.  My group hates sorcery speed creature steal.

trial // error - hasn't really come up yet.


So that's what I've seen.  What did the rest of you think?

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh man, Research as an answer to Tatsumasa is insanely hot.