Is Uba Mask necessary in Ubastax?

[yespuhyren]

Although Ubazaar doesn't mean you automatically win, I win most of the games where I have gotten Ubazaar online, and I'm sure Evenpence and Vroman can probably say the same.  You outdraw your opponent so heavily and so quickly, and should probably be able to lock them down once you get active.

[Evenpence]

Although Ubazaar doesn't mean you automatically win, I win most of the games where I have gotten Ubazaar online, and I'm sure Evenpence and Vroman can probably say the same.  You outdraw your opponent so heavily and so quickly, and should probably be able to lock them down once you get active.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to lose.  Obviously if you haven't had Ubazaar going for very long and your opponent gets a threat, or you don't draw the right answers/locks, (five lands in a row or something like that), then you can lose, but it's very rare.

I've never lost a game when drawing six or more cards off Ubazaar.  I've been able to set Chalices at 0, 1, 2, and 3 TWICE because of it.    Drawing five cards a turn is virtually unbeatable.

[warble]

Two card combos that do not win the game are not good unless the cards involved are independantly playable.

Cards should do something as soon as they hit the table.

The issue here is not bazaar of baghdad, it is really the weakness of Uba Mask.  Bazaar does something amazing on it's own for stax, but it doesn't generate card advantage and takes up important colored mana slots.  Uba Mask on its own immediately shuts down brainstorm, forces ancestral to be played at sorcery speed, but again takes up a lock component's space and it waits for bazaar without draw power and in some cases tutors.  The issue is do you dedicate to that gameplan, and if you do not, is it realistic to expect your deck with either bazaar or uba mask to be as strong as one without the partner?

It should be easy to come to the realization that workshop without bazaar and uba mask is not just broken, it's really friggin' broken.  But can it survive as a 5 color deck with 2 bazaar and 1 uba mask?  Yes, but it may not be optimal.  The same reason fish can play tinker darksteel colossus is the justification behind two bazaar and 1 uba mask in a stax build.  When you draw it and it works, it's amazing.  You've limited your risk in fish because you have brainstorm and are running something that not only is surprising, but that is too broken and unexpected to deal with in many cases.  Ubazaar has lost that characteristic, so it can't expect to receive the benefits of the other splash cards.  What it hasn't lost is its brokenness, because ubazaar when resolved in the right deck will generate enough card advantage to win a game.

My personal opinion is to keep running 4 mask and 4 bazaar and null rod.  Null rod is the best way to buy tempo without locking and 4 of both uba and bazaar allow me to keep my 7 card hands way more than less than a full complement of both would.  Uba stax also doesn't want to go beatdown, it wants to lock and draw into some teeny tinies and maybe karn and inch its way to victory.  Anyway that's all I have on this topic.   

[yespuhyren]

While this is true, "Ubastax" has somewhat evolved.  In my updated list, smokestack is questionable, and Uba Mask is not.  Smokestack is good, but the deck doesnt' have to function like a Stax deck.  I try and just play control, and slow up the board and their hand until I can use Jester's Cap.

[Brapp]

While this is true, "Ubastax" has somewhat evolved.  In my updated list, smokestack is questionable, and Uba Mask is not.  Smokestack is good, but the deck doesnt' have to function like a Stax deck.  I try and just play control, and slow up the board and their hand until I can use Jester's Cap.

In testing, I've had trouble with this game plan. Tier 1 decks have already begun evolving so they won't lose to a Jester's Cap activation. Many tier 2 and lower decks are simply unfazed by Jester's Cap. I've lost several games in testing after I've activated Cap twice on an opponent in situations where it really doesn't matter. I feel that the deck really wants something that's going to affect the board - affect the present game state. But this is a different argument.

For the time being, I think I'll continue running UbaMask. It's extremely good verus a wide swath of decks - obviously ones that look to draw cards. The fact that it combos nicely with Bazaar and, to a lesser extent, Goblin Welder, make it currently worthwhile.

[yespuhyren]

A question I would have for you, is what list are you running? I just submitted an article to SCG about how to properly customize a build of UbaStax towards your metagame, including sideboarding, which is purely metagame specific.  The SB listed is for my metagame, which is very Drain and Combo heavy, with some , but very few Stax and Oath.

Here is the current list I'm playing

4 Bazaar
4 Workshop
4 Waste
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Academy
1 Strip

9 Vault, Crypt, Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring

4 Welder
1 Karn/Mindslaver (Still undecided)

1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
4 Jester's Cap
4 Crucible
4 Chalice

SB:

4 Defense Grid
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Granite Shard

[Implacable]

Yespuhyren, in a combo-heavy environment, wouldn't Spheres of Resistance be a pretty good card to include?  It seems like that does a really good job of shutting down storm or denying an early UU.

[dicemanx]

By a similar token, I wonder how much better 3-4 main deck Crypts are over, say, the Tangle Wires, and/or if Crypts are better than SoRs. In addition, once you unload the Null rods, Memory Jar should get consideration as well. I keep forgetting about that card.

Regarding SoR by the way, I really don't trust that card. If you get non-Shop opening hands, its totally counterproductive with your 4cc bombs (Smokestack, Uba Mask, Cap, CotV for 2 etc). Even with Shops, you don't want to necessarily cast that thing if your opponent is running Wastes.

[Implacable]

By a similar token, I wonder how much better 3-4 main deck Crypts are over, say, the Tangle Wires, and/or if Crypts are better than SoRs. In addition, once you unload the Null rods, Memory Jar should get consideration as well. I keep forgetting about that card.

Regarding SoR by the way, I really don't trust that card. If you get non-Shop opening hands, its totally counterproductive with your 4cc bombs (Smokestack, Uba Mask, Cap, CotV for 2 etc). Even with Shops, you don't want to necessarily cast that thing if your opponent is running Wastes.

I know that this might sound bad, but hear me out.  I view Sphere as a sort of variant of a 'win-more' card.  Unlike the usual 'win-more' card, however, Sphere is actually good, because of the amount of threats that Stax plays with.  If you play a threat followed a turn later by a Sphere, you have a massive advantage.  In essence, Sphere is a sort of mini-combo with 1/3 of the cards in your deck, which is actually quite good.  Be the actual threat an Uba, Stack, Cap, or Chalice, the Sphere makes the threat amazing by slowing down opposing production.  Furthermore, one must consider that making Gifts and Slaver wait to turn 3 to play Drain will win you the game.

[yespuhyren]

By a similar token, I wonder how much better 3-4 main deck Crypts are over, say, the Tangle Wires, and/or if Crypts are better than SoRs.

Maindeck crypts wouldn't be bad, but they don't do stuff against a lot of matchups.  As good as it is against Slaver or gifts, a Wire will shut off their drains or make them use it on the wire, which they will rarely ever use on the Crypt in my opinion.  Crypts are great in the SB as well, though I still feel that Pillar is better against all combo except for Dragon.

The main thing about Resistor, is look at my list.  I can almost guarantee that the average converted mana cost of spells is higher in my deck than in any other deck in existance. 

0 - 11 (including chalice, which is usually set at 1)
1 - 6
2 - 0
3 - 9
4 - 12
5/6 - 1

Sphere of resistance will do far more damage to me if I don't have a Workshop or a heavy mox draw.

Memory Jar was definitely an option that I had considered, and its one of the cards I'm thinking of putting in for the last slot.  The Mindslaver/Karn is the one slot I'm still unsure about, and here are the options

Mindslaver
Karn
Titan
Trike
Solemn
Wheel of Fortune
Memory Jar

Those are the main ones I would consider right now

[dicemanx]

Maindeck crypts wouldn't be bad, but they don't do stuff against a lot of matchups.  As good as it is against Slaver or gifts, a Wire will shut off their drains or make them use it on the wire, which they will rarely ever use on the Crypt in my opinion.

I think the "don't do stuff against a lot of matchups" phrase can apply to a number of cards already in (Uba)Stax. The reason I'm suggesting Crypts main extends beyond just CS and Gifts. It includes Dragon, IT, Grimlong, and other Welder based Stax decks. That's already a pretty big chunk of the meta right there. Regarding Tangle Wire, I'm pretty ambivalent about the card. Sometmes it works "well", but sometimes when you can't put on the pressure and your Welders get shut off, they might amount to a loss of a card as the window of opportunity that they represent is small (1-2 turns max usually). I think Wires are a little better suited for Shop decks that have an aggro component, or a deck like this mono-brown Stax (scroll down to see a list):

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28174.0   

[yespuhyren]

I definitely won't argue with you on the strength of Tormod's Crypt.  The card is amazing.  Especially in our local metagame, I'm sure you've seen how much combo (IT/Grimlong/Dragon) and Ichorid, not to mention CS and Gifts. are present.  You definitely might be on to something Peter, and I'll definitely give it a try.

[dicemanx]

I definitely won't argue with you on the strength of Tormod's Crypt.  The card is amazing.  Especially in our local metagame, I'm sure you've seen how much combo (IT/Grimlong/Dragon) and Ichorid, not to mention CS and Gifts. are present.  You definitely might be on to something Peter, and I'll definitely give it a try.

Combo is definitely on the upswing locally, and Null rod decks have almost disappeared (I think JayC was the last regular Rod Fish player in the meta), so I've started testing 3 Crypts in Shop decks. I must say though, there's a little bit of dissynergy with CotV if you need to play it for 0 turn 1. Fortunately any Welder that sticks will make Crypt still possible, or alternately maybe its better to hold off on those early CotVs for 0 - the deck is less focused on mana denial with the absence of Null Rod anyways, and Wastelands are hard pressed to find actual targets. Usually the ideal CotVs are for either 2 or 3 anyways.

Another option is to run Phyrexian Furnaces to avoid the conflict with CotV and to have a way to replace the draw in the event that the graveyard hate isn't necessary. Furnaces are much weaker though in terms of their effect, and they either need to be drawn very early, or in multiples. Still examining the options here.

[yespuhyren]

A good thing though, is unless we are on the play (where I always set it for 0 if my hand proves it to be logical) when I play against combo, I always set it to 1.  This definitely helps with playing Tormod's Crypts.