Adding Black to Uba Stax

[meadbert]

This is purely conjecture and I have done no testing.

Uba Stax really wants to win the Welder war.

What about adding Black.  Black gives Uba Stax the Tutors it lacks as well as Darkblast.

The problem is what can be dropped.  Barbarian Ring is too important for winning the Welder War.
Then it occurred to me.  Maybe wasteland could be dropped.

The number one thing that decks have done to adjust to Stax is play waste proof mana bases.  Mass bounce is annoying but it wouldn't be castable if there weren't two Islands sitting out there.

Wasteland is not the lock it once was.

Replacing Wastelands with Badlands and replacing Mountains with a Volrath's Stronghold and two Cabal Pits would actually increase the amount of red mana sources and make winning the welder war inevitable once threshold is reached.

There will be no Wastelands, but there could be Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal to find Strip Mine.
Darkblast could dredge cards into the graveyard and help win the welder war before threshold is reached.

I have never played Stax running fewer than 4 wastelands but I wondered if this might be worth exploring.

[EnialisLiadon]

I would keep at least 2, personally.  It keeps their duals out of the picture, and/or other specialty lands.  To lessen your vulnerability to Wastes, why noy 2-3 Badlands, but along with some Bloodstained Mires?  Additional stuff to do with Crucible for deck thinning, if you wanted to.

The idea is interesting, since everyone complains about Ubastax's lack of tutors.

[Harlequin]

I've Said it before, and I'll say it again:

Infernal Tutor would be awsome in Uba-Stax ... If the deck could be addapted to run it.

If you are Uba'ed out, then Infernal tutor is demonic tutor.  But even if your not, he could prove valuable for doubleing up on some juicy cards like Welder, Sphere, Chalice, Smokestack, Workshop, Wasteland.... yeah those are cards where 2 is better than 1!  I'm not 100% sure the mana could be adapted to support this though.

[meadbert]

I posted the idea but I am not really sure it is any good.

Uba Stax really wants to put pressure on before your opponents second turn.

That is when they go off if they are combo or get drain mana up if they are drain based.

On the play Vamp Tutor could be used first turn to get what you need put pressure on turn 2.

On the draw it is too late for Vamp Tutor unless you play it and then Bazaar for a net card loss of two.  Bad smokestack synergy.

The question is how much does Wasteland hurt.

It is pretty rare these days for someone to open up with a dual land.

It is more likely to see a combination of fetchlands and islands.  Here is where turn 1 tutor for Strip Mine.
Turn 2 Strip Mine could be helpful.  That only works on the play though and I would probably just rather have a Chalice of the Void than the tutor anyway if I am on the play.

Infernal Tutor has the potential to be a demonic tutor in the long run because of Uba Mask and Bazaar so it does have potential.  Maybe it is better than Vamp Tutor and Imperial Seal.

The whole problem is the fundemental turn is turn 2.

[Moxlotus]

It is more likely to see a combination of fetchlands and islands.  Here is where turn 1 tutor for Strip Mine.
Turn 2 Strip Mine could be helpful.  That only works on the play though and I would probably just rather have a Chalice of the Void than the tutor anyway if I am on the play.

That was a completely pointless sentence since I didn't think anybody was suggesting cutting chalices for the black cards.  You still have Chalices.

[yespuhyren]

Black cards you COULD add

1x Vampiric
1x Demonic
1x Imperial Seal
4x Infernal Tutor
1-2 Darkblast
1-3 Duress

Sure, all these cards could be awesome, but there are a few issues

A)  The reason the green splash didn't work out is because the two green cards we wanted to add both had a CMC of 1.  Duress, Darkblast, Imperial Seal, and Vampiric all cost 1.  Although the cards are good, part of the reason chalice is so good in this deck is because we can freely set chalice@1 and it only hits 4 welders, sol ring, and mana vault, which isn't that much in comparison to what it shuts off

B)  What do you cut?  As far as my most recent list goes, there is one open slot, and the first thing I would cut from the list is Smokestack right now.  Are these better than smokestack is the question you have to ask yourself.

NOTE:  Why do I say smokestack and not Uba Mask?  Uba Mask has PROVEN itself to me in tournament far more than smokestack has.  In the old Ubastax list, smokestack was better.  Now, with Jester's Caps and NO monkeys, this deck has changed from a Stax archetype, which is why I no longer even call it stax anymore.  Smokestack is in there as a way to deal with my own Mana Crypt so I don't die from mana burn.  The deck has become more about slowing down the opponent until you can Ubalock them and/or Jester's Cap them for the win.

[meadbert]

I have been playing without Chalice of the Void in the maindeck.

That is a different issue.

I think the problem with black is that Imperial Seal + Vamp Tutor are card disadvantage which Stax hates.

To me the four most important unrestricted cards are Goblin Welder, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack and Goblin Welder.

The most important card is Strip Mine.

Crucible is not as good as it once was due to the high number of Fetch/Basic lands in decks.  The only way to make it more powerful is to find ways to Tutor for it.

If we swap out Wastelands, one option is to replace the three Mountains with Badlands and the 4 Wastelands with 1 Badlands and 3 Fetchlands.

This could be better than what was suggested before.  It drastically increases the red mana count and also provides 7 black mana sources plus Black Lotus and Mox Jet.

The question really is how good is going Imperial Seal->Strip Mine on turn 1.  Is it too late or really strong?

[yespuhyren]

I have been playing without Chalice of the Void in the maindeck.

And what are you playing instead?  If you don't give us a list we can't help you

To me the four most important unrestricted cards are Goblin Welder, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack and Goblin Welder.

A) You listed welder twice
B) Smokestack isn't that important in the deck right now, depending on which version you play.

[meadbert]

Well I would say that Smokestack is VERY important.

If it resolves first turn it is a gigantic bomb.

If it is countered, but Welder resolves it is still a problem.

I mean Uba Mask as the fourth card.

I run Wires and Spheres over Chalice.

I have never tried running Vamp Tutor or Demonic Tutor in Uba Stax.  It is just that I want more ways to find Strip Mine.

I have tried R/G Uba Stax and found Chalice@1 cut off Fastbond and Crop Rotation and that even if I had Fastbond/Crop Rotation turn 1 I might not have the right collored land.

[yespuhyren]

I would rather resolve first turn Cap than first turn Smokestack in a lot of matches...

[sundering titan]

Yep, in my last games smokestack has proven every time more not very useful, not even playing it early in the game.
I am not a very experienced player, but still I was expecting it to be stronger.
Currently i am playing BRUbaStax (darkblast&demonic) and the main problem i have is that control players just wait until having tinker + enough mana in hands to play it in the same turn so doesnt really matter if i own the board.

I am planing to move to spheres instead of chalices to avoid this, but chalices are stronger and i dont really like the change.

Jesters Cap in that sense is more useful than smokestack since it has an "instant" effect in the game and there is nothing they can do to fix it.  ???

Just my two cents

[Pitlord]

I agree with yespuhyren, smokestack is by far the weakest card in the deck. I play something different from both The Jester and traditional stax, with a local top8 and a ton of apprentice tourny wins. It is much more tempo based, and smokestack is terrible for tempo. If you can get it going with an active welder it is pretty good, but even then it takes a lot of time. I would rather take out my oppoents tempo and go for the throat than actually sit there and try to lock them out with a smokestack.

As for the actual concept or adding black, I think that it could be successful, but some definite cuts would have to be made. I feel that adding another color for more than a card or two actually equires re-focusing the entire uba-stax core, because of the amount of cards you need to lose and how many lock pieces uba traditionally runs. Also, I think the general idea of having a lot of tutors in stax is good, but just using black ones seems weak.

With that in mind, I think the only way for traditional uba to evolve (other than branching into other decks ala The Jester) is to convert to a 5c mana base. I have been a long time 5c player and only played uba a little, but think that adding in the raw bomb-tastic power of multiple colors is great. All that has to be done is to re-work the core of current 5c lists to incorporate a different set of locks.

[yespuhyren]

Exactly.  That is what most players don't understand as to why I claim that Wire is far better than Smokestack right now.  Wire is active right away.  Smokestack isn't useful until at least a few turns in.  Tempo is very key in the format right now.