[Discussion] What is your ideal Banned/Restricted list?

[scutakicker]

The restricted list should be reserved for cards that are 1)so inherently powerful that they must be restricted (Recall, Will, Lotus) or 2) synergystic enough with an archetype or deck that without restriction the format becomes unbalanced. Trinishphere, Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish are examples. Vintage decks are very powerful and can certainly deal with some new threats thrown at them. The things I think need to be looked at the closest for unrestriction are 1) cards that were once very powerful, but at this point are just chaff on the list and 2) cards that would make new/old decks viable. Some people have objected to certain cards because they could easily break them. It matters a great whether they can break it like unrestricted Wish/LED was broken or break it like Oath of Druids is "broken." Its ok if they unrestrict a card and a decent deck can actually be built around it.

I think definitely:
Voltaic Key
Dream Halls

More debateably:
--Mindtwist (Misdi and Drain definitely keep this in check how many would you really want to run anyway?)
--Personal Tutor (Is anyone playing this? Some cards are only good as 4 ofs, as 1-ofs they are too neutered. Tutors are not generally in that category a good tutor says "This card is anything in your deck" and gets played as a 1-of. Were there not so many tutors at this point it might be restriction-worthy, but a sorcery speed Mystical is not something people will be filling decks with.)
--Gush (Land drops are important, especially for decks control decks that are trying to combo out, so the land bounce matters and it makes Gro potentially viable. Again, if it were that broken of a spell on its own you'd see decks running it occassionally as a 1-of like Fact or Fiction
--Mox Diamond (most decks are mana-light and can't afford to run many anyway)
--Enlightened Tutor (might be useful in a more enchantment heavy 5c stax deck but similar to Personal Tutor decks are not going to b)
--Time Spiral (I honestly don't think that this is too broken. Fast combo decks only have a few lands in play so without Tolarian its not an auto-win. Something to keep an eye on, but if its that amazing why aren't people using it in combo now?)

WoTC seeks input from players all the time, it would be interesting if they ran a poll on how much people actually want some of these cards unrestricted. The months before GenCon seem a bad time to do it, but a good time to gather some information on it.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Er, did 1/5 of this thread just asplode?

Yeah, I cleaned it up a bit.
-Jacob[/b]

Ah. Thanks.

[onelovemachine]

This is what you get when you ask questions like the one posed:

"workshop should be retricted.

I dont think ritual  should be restricted, since its a core card for mono black decks. its not rituals faulthats its being abused with tendrils and yawgwill

maybe tendrils should be restricted, thats would stop a lot of combo decks, or it would make them more fair.
mana drain is good, but it still gives mana burn in the worst case scenario, so I dont think it should be restricted. its a counterspellafter all, not a combo card ( although the mana produced helps combosobviously)"

[Evenpence]

I for the most part, agree with the current Banned/Restricted list, although Banning Yawg Will would be nice.

Oath would also have to be restricted if we Banned Yawg's Will.

Two things about discussion:

Frantic Search is retarded.  It's a free Bazaar of Baghdad for blue decks that don't force you to use a land drop and fill the graveyard for Yawg Win.

Every blue deck should currently be running the maximum alotted copies of Frantic Search - the card is beyond retarded.  I once advocated unrestricting Frantic Search until I tested a deck with 4x Frantic Search.  There is no question that this card is far better than Time Spiral in my mind.

I'm thinking about starting up a topic on the Vintage Open Forum about Frantic Search, as most (if not all) Drain decks do not play with the card.  It's been absolutely retarded every single time I've tested it in a Drain deck.

Knowing what we know now about Stax (or maybe at least what I know), unrestricting Trinisphere is just stupid.  Wasteland would become a good strategy again, as would dropping Vintage and never picking it up again.

Although I would love to see my favorite deck get the biggest boost in power level ever, I would like to see people continue to attend Vintage tournaments more.

[yespuhyren]

Considering the pathetic results of Stax recently, I think that unrestricting trinisphere would boost stax on the same level as combo was boosted when given Grim Tutor.

[Implacable]

Who wants to play against Trini?  It blows.  There's really nothing more to be said about that.

[Evenpence]

Considering the pathetic results of Stax recently, I think that unrestricting trinisphere would boost stax on the same level as combo was boosted when given Grim Tutor.

Trinistax would own EVERYTHING though.  I would try to look past selfish reasons for unrestricting certain cards.  Trinistax would defeat approximately 95% of the metagame, now that we have cards which deal with problematic matchups under our belt (Granite Shard).

I really don't think unrestricting Trinisphere would be right.  It would create such an unbalance in power towards Stax, it'd be crazy.

[Moxlotus]

Considering the pathetic results of Stax recently, I think that unrestricting trinisphere would boost stax on the same level as combo was boosted when given Grim Tutor.

Trinistax would own EVERYTHING though.  I would try to look past selfish reasons for unrestricting certain cards.  Trinistax would defeat approximately 95% of the metagame, now that we have cards which deal with problematic matchups under our belt (Granite Shard).

I really don't think unrestricting Trinisphere would be right.  It would create such an unbalance in power towards Stax, it'd be crazy.

It would not own everything.  Decks would simply adapt as they always have.  Oath and IT would become even more popular.

[ErkBek]

Am I one of the few that really hate 3sphere? That card is soooooo gay.

Stax is fine, it will make a rebound soon enough.

[AJFirst]

On a scale from 1 to Homosexual...

Seriously though, Triple Balls is one of the most annoying frustrating cards ever printed, and the fact that it conviniently goes with Workshop just makes it that much worse. The problem isn't that Stax would be overpowered if it were unrestricted, the metagame would easily develope past it, the problem is that player interest would go down. What kind of right-minded player likes to face a turn one TripsBalls on the draw?

It just randomly wins too many games right now to be considered fair, from both a competitive point, and even more so a fun point of veiw. Then again this is just one kids humble opinion.
-AJ

[Evenpence]

I will say right now that Trinistax would completely own the metagame worse than it ever has.  We know things about Stax now that we didn't know when Trinistax was around.  We play with cards now that terribly enhance Stax's ability to do well (Bazaar of Baghdad for reference).

I got 0 Trinispheres into play during my entire time at Richmond - and it was only force of willed once (vs. Rich Shay on Day 2).  I still made Top 8 both days.  I don't even want to think about what I could do if you gave me a full playset of Trinispheres to work with.

If you were to legalize Trinisphere tomorrow, I would guarantee that both days at any major event would be dominated by Trinistax.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I have several updated lists of Workshop that include 4 Trinispheres that I test for my own amusement. Either one would be almost unconditionally dominant were they legal. The card is just disgusting. I stand by my prior claim that the only reason 4 Trinisphere Stax/Aggro wasn't completely ruining the format was entirely the result of most people playing 4 Trinisphere + 56 random dot deck. People crutched on it, and thus their decks were only overpowered contenders rather than overpowered wrecking balls.

[zeus-online]

how about unrestricting 3sphere, strip and black vise? That'd be "fun"!
...right...

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

Considering the pathetic results of Stax recently, I think that unrestricting trinisphere would boost stax on the same level as combo was boosted when given Grim Tutor.

Trinistax would own EVERYTHING though. 

That is absolutely false.  I was at my tournament peak at the hieght of Trinisphere season.

I think that card is perfectly fine. 

Turn one Trinsphere can easily be beaten with fetch and basic lands and Force of Will and Wasteland.  Oath would be a fine solution, as would a new TPS or any number of decks. 

[Evenpence]

That is absolutely false.  I was at my tournament peak at the hieght of Trinisphere season.

I think that card is perfectly fine. 

Turn one Trinsphere can easily be beaten with fetch and basic lands and Force of Will and Wasteland.  Oath would be a fine solution, as would a new TPS or any number of decks. 

Fine.  I challenge you to make some deck that can compete in the field that can beat Turn 1 Trinisphere.  I'll play you over MWS, and I'll make my 4x Trinistax deck, and you make something you feel can compete against the field AND my Trinistax deck.

You up to the challenge?  Maybe you'll win a majority of the games and I can get my favorite card unrestricted.

Maybe you can write an article about it.  It will be fun.

[roberts91rom]

With Trinistax legal the whole "field" would be oath, trinistax and whatever "TPS" Smennen believes can take turn 1 Trinisphere. The only deck that runs Fetches, basics, wastelands AND FoWs is Fish.

The whole format will be morphed into 2 categories of decks.

#1. Trinistax.
#2. Anti-Trinistax decks. (Oath, Fish and "TPS")

[dicemanx]

Trinisphere never dominated and never will, but it was grossly distortive. Don't be fooled by the justification put forth by Aforsythe about the card being "unfun". It was unfun because of that distortive effect on the environment, and the fact that it increased early game randomness to an unacceptable degree. The card should never, ever, come off the restricted list.

Another card that should not come off is Entomb, for a very similar reason cited above for Trini - it will lead to the most retarded, easy, turn 1-2 kills/draws. 

[yespuhyren]

Entomb, in my opinon, would be a 4 of in Dragon as soon as it got unrestricted.  Dragon would go INSANE.  Though I'm not a dragon player, that is still what I feel would happen

[roberts91rom]

Entomb isn't broken as a one-of, because of the inconsistancy. Yet as a four-of it reads: B, fetch a welding target, or animation target, or what you need to GG with Will, or Deep Anal, or ramp up threshold. It's not worth the small chance of drawing this conditional tutor as a one-of. As a four-of however, it becomes Vampiric 2-5 with a different drawback.

Trinisphere would kill combo and aggro, 2 of 3 archetypes. Um..., that is not good. That is why it was dubbed as "unfun." It limits everybody to play Control in one way or another. Not everybody is smart enough to competantly play a control deck, and then there are those that don't want to. 1/3 of the meta is left post-unrestriction KTHX.

[Purple Hat]

Trinisphere would kill combo and aggro, 2 of 3 archetypes. Um..., that is not good. That is why it was dubbed as "unfun." It limits everybody to play Control in one way or another. Not everybody is smart enough to competantly play a control deck, and then there are those that don't want to. 1/3 of the meta is left post-unrestriction KTHX.

this is simply not true....seriously trinisphere doesn't kill aggro, it gives it life in the form of workshop aggro, which when built inteligently with 3sphere is a nasty nasty beast.  it doesn't kill combo because combo adapts to be something like IT, TPS or 2-3 color dragon. 

Dicemanx's argument about distortion is FAR more compelling than this.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Entomb gets Strip for Crucible as well.

[emidln]

Entomb gets Strip for Crucible as well.

Or Will/Recoup depending on what you have in hand/graveyard.

[dicemanx]

There's almost 0 chance Entomb would get played over a tutor that puts a card in hand or the top of the library, so the point is moot about Strip and CoW. Entomb has very few good targets as it is, and I even hesitate to add it to WGD builds (arguably the only deck that can use it best).

I'm also pretty sure that 4 Entomb WGD also wouldn't dominate (I hope no one inferred that from my post). But it would lead to retarded turn 1-2 plays and make the game less skill intensive and more about lucky early hands.

[Moxlotus]

Trinisphere would kill combo and aggro, 2 of 3 archetypes. Um..., that is not good. That is why it was dubbed as "unfun." It limits everybody to play Control in one way or another. Not everybody is smart enough to competantly play a control deck, and then there are those that don't want to. 1/3 of the meta is left post-unrestriction KTHX.

this is simply not true....seriously trinisphere doesn't kill aggro, it gives it life in the form of workshop aggro, which when built inteligently with 3sphere is a nasty nasty beast.  it doesn't kill combo because combo adapts to be something like IT, TPS or 2-3 color dragon. 

Dicemanx's argument about distortion is FAR more compelling than this.

I also doubt 4 Trinisphere would affect the aggro deck that is Ichorid.

[cssamerican]

My ideal list would be what we have with the condition that one card comes off the list every six months for a trial period. If the card does not distort the metagame in a negative way then it stays off the list. If it does warp the format it gets restricted again. The DCI could use a common sense policy that could be influenced by a poll on their web site to decide which card would get paroled at the designated time. This kind of list would ensure that the format is always changing and evolving sort of like a mini rotation for the format.

This would also keep the list cleaned up. You wouldn't have a bunch of cards on there that aren't even powerfull enough to see play, let alone be powerfull enough to be restricted.

[Evenpence]

My ideal list would be what we have with the condition that one card comes off the list every six months for a trial period. If the card does not distort the metagame in a negative way then it stays off the list. If it does warp the format it gets restricted again. The DCI could use a common sense policy that could be influenced by a poll on their web site to decide which card would get paroled at the designated time. This kind of list would ensure that the format is always changing and evolving sort of like a mini rotation for the format.

This would also keep the list cleaned up. You wouldn't have a bunch of cards on there that aren't even powerfull enough to see play, let alone be powerfull enough to be restricted.

I like this idea.  Six months sounds like a good time.

It would also give players more interaction with the game itself, which is always good.

The better we get Voltaic Key and *grins* Trinisphere *grins* off the list, the better.

Yes, I was joking about Trinisphere.

[Smmenen]

That is absolutely false.  I was at my tournament peak at the hieght of Trinisphere season.

I think that card is perfectly fine. 

Turn one Trinsphere can easily be beaten with fetch and basic lands and Force of Will and Wasteland.  Oath would be a fine solution, as would a new TPS or any number of decks. 

Fine.  I challenge you to make some deck that can compete in the field that can beat Turn 1 Trinisphere.  I'll play you over MWS, and I'll make my 4x Trinistax deck, and you make something you feel can compete against the field AND my Trinistax deck.

You up to the challenge?  Maybe you'll win a majority of the games and I can get my favorite card unrestricted.

Maybe you can write an article about it.  It will be fun.

I actually did a metagame analysis of the restriction of Trinishpere.   When Trinisphere was legal, there was more metagame diversity than the four months after its restriction.

When it got restricted, ironically, that killed Ritual decks until Portal was legal.   TPS was designed and play specifically to fight Trinispheres.  The deck has all basics and fetchlands, multiple rebuilds and Hurkyl's maindeck, and Force of Wills and could easily fight Trinisphere.   

Trinisphere, by itself, had two strong game ending follow ups using unrestricted cards:

T1:
Shop, 3Sphere

T2:
Land, Stack
OR
Land, Juggernaut

Anything else was too weak.

Consider:

T2:
Land Crucible + Wasteland

You only lose to this if your deck lacks more than 4 basics and 5 Fetchlands

The only other way you auto lose is:

T2:
Crucible + Strip mine (a restricted card)

Thus, the only way you lose is if they
a) are on the play
b) they have shop, trini and stack/jugg
c) you do not have FoW or Wasteland

Force of Will + Wasteland in every deck gave you 9 solid answers to turn one Trinisphere.  You just need basics as well.

Trinisphere, in retrospect, had some unexpeted effects when restricted:

1) it resulted in a rennasaince of Workshop innovation
Trinisphere kept workshop innovation capped becuase of the design constraints of the card

2) made drains alot stronger, not combo, ironically. 

When trinipshere was unrestricted, contrary to predictions of combo rampage, drains really took off.  We saw gifts, etc, emerge.

I personally felt that trinisphere was fine.  I made gencon top 8 based on a trinisphere field using back ot basics and energy flux.  I lost becuase I got strip mined in the crucial game when I failed to play flux. 

Trinisphere was distorting and stupid.  It's presence may not have actually hindered the diversity in the format, but it certainly did distort it.  It let people win on the back of trinisphere instead of actual skill. 

Peter is right - it was distorting - but Forsythe is also right - it was very unfun.  I think that Trinisphere was only marginally more distorting on the constraints it put on deckbuilding than say mana drain, but i concede that it did put more restraints on deckbuilding.

You basically had
1) to have 9+ fetchlands/basics
2) Force of Will or Workshop
3) and probably wasteland
to have a viable deck.

However, I see nothing wrong with those constraints, inhernetly.

Granted, there are slightly more sweet plays today than back then: you could follow trinisphere up with J. Cap or bazaar, but that would just further constrain deck building so decks wouldn't lose to Cap. 

I am not advocating its unrestriction, I'm just explaining the precise effect it had on the metagame.  It did permit a certain  number of turn one wins on luck, but I argued at the time that those were necessary to permit shops to compete.

And there are no developments that make it worse.  Do you think that Ichorid gives a crap about Trinisphere? 

And let's not forget that Trinisphere was only marginally good on the draw.  Stax wins on the play far more than 50% anyway in most matchups.  Otherwise Stax wouldn't be viable. 

[AngryPheldagrif]

The real question in my mind is not whether Trinisphere was too metagame distorting to be unrestricted, but whether we have reached the point where Shop is simply not going to be consistently tier 1 without it, but would be too distorting with it. While we saw Stax peak long after the Mirrodin days, the fact is that absent another Urza/Mirrodin set, Shops simply are not gaining competitive cards at the rate other decks are.

The only reason I believe Trinisphere should remain restricted is because I do not believe we could enjoy a metagame anywhere near as healthy as the one we enjoy now if it were allowed. Decks would adapt, but inevitably a lot of the varients and more fringe designs would die off.

[Glix]

It's really not a matter of Trinisphere being really distorting among the highly competetive.

Yes, its a powerful card, but having played during Trinisphere's reign, it was easy to not only work around the sphere with fetches and basics and use your own strip/wastes to screw an opponant under his or her own sphere.  There were bounce spells, and players could win around it.

No, that is not the problem.  The problem is that the new players, the medicore to poor players, the innovative players, they were all, and would be again, squashed under turn one 3sphere, which just sucks.  Its not the power level, its the "fun" level.  Decks had to be designed to beat the card.  Decks had to pack 4 Forces, a tun of fetches, or be stax themselves.  New decks would perish, and although the format would live, it would become so assinine that no one would want to play it.

There are definitly cards on the list that should be on because they are stupid as a four of.  There are cards that are stupid in fours, and good, but not broken, as one-ofs.  There are strong cards on the list, but that define the format.

The following cards are obviously broken, even as singletons, but define the format.  They should be obvious:
    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Channel
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Fastbond
    * Imperial Seal
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will (I will discuss this later)

The following are less obvious, but if any of you have been around during their unrestriction, you recognize how broken they are as multiples due to the insane engines they promote.  For the most part, they deserve to be on the list:
    * Burning Wish*
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fact or Fiction
    * Frantic Search
    * Gush
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Memory Jar
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Personal Tutor
    * Regrowth
    * Time Spiral
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall

The italized cards here are the weaker cards in this bunch.  I am not sure that if any of these cards were unrestricted they would necessarily become broken.  Personal tutor is very slow and cumbersome, searching for but a handful of the powerful cards.  Entomb was restricted because of dragon, but dragon has since evolved.  What deck could abuse this now?  Time Spiral is the best of the bunch, but the 6 mana hurts a lot right now.  One might as well stamp a big "DRAIN ME" on it, as the caser usually is forced to invest all of their mana into it.  That being said, any one of these cards is also concievable broken, but I believe that we should test them.

The following remain on the list:
    * Black Vise
    * Chrome Mox
    * Dream Halls
    * Grim Monolith
    * Mind Twist
    * Mox Diamond
    * Trinisphere
    * Voltaic Key

Chrome Mox, among the unbolded cards, is the only card in my mind of these remaining card that can be considered for leaving restricted, as it does have aplications, but I am not sure it is broken.  Mox Diamond is considerably weak, difficult to cast, and its benifit no longer outways the cost.  Mind Twist is both too slow now, and counterproductive against many decks (Ichorid, Dragon, Stax, etc., etc.).

That leaves Black Vise and Trinisphere.  Why are these cards on the list?  They are "unfun".  Black Vise is a card easy to play arround.  It doesn't even see play now.  However, with 4, it makes control so "unfun" to play as you take a lot of damage simply for playing in your style, with a 1 mana artifact.  This, I am sure, is debatable, but it is not fun to play against, and so it remains on the list.  Trinisphere is likewise able to played around.  Heck, everyone could just play stax and it wouldn't even be that good of a card any more.  But then the format is a terrible game.  It looses its inricacies.  So it remains restricted.  I would keep these cards restricted for the sake of the format, I am not sure about the rest of you.

That leads into the next point.

Yawgmoth's Will.  This seems to be a point of contention.  It is an insainly broken card, true.  It wins the game when in resolves, also true.  Is it too good though?  Is it "unfun"?  If it is banned, should burning wish be unrestricted?

I believe that to determain the answers to these questions a vintage version of the ffl would have to be formed, in which we would test the proposed points of contention.  What would happen to the format if Will were banned?  Time Spiral unrestricted?  What decks emerge, what die?  These must be addressed.  Will could get the axe, imo, but only if the gain outweighs the loss, whcih I am not so sure on.  Its a stupid card, but it is a strategic card, to a point.  Combo and control tend to either use will as a win condition currently.  If it is banned, could another source of win condition be established that would maintain the decks so that they did not die to other unnefected decks in the format?

The following could be unrestricted with no hesitation:
    * Dream Halls
    * Grim Monolith
    * Mind Twist
    * Mox Diamond
    * Voltaic Key

They would not break or effect the format greatly, imo.  Chrome Mox is debatable, but could be added to this list as well, imo.

The other ideas must be extensivly tested.  Banning will is treading on thin ice.  I believe we must try it for perhaps six months, and see what happens.  Or at least conduct an experiment.  If it does not shatter the format, if it can be banned and make the format better, than we should likely try it.  But banning will is an unequal blow.  Aggro, stax, ichorid, oath, they suffer nothing.  Control takes a blow, but can survive.  Combo, however, would be mortallly wounded, I would suppose.  But this is all speculation.  We should test this.

[Harkius]

I've noted that pretty much the entire community agrees with a number of cards being easy targets for unrestriction. Does anyone know if Mssr. Buhler still reads these boards and/or whether he could point any of the luminaries at the DCI over this way to take a look?

It may do some good things.

Harkius