Sideboarding with Meandeck Tendrils

[Implacable]

Hello.  I've recently started playing Meandeck Tendrils, and am in awe of its speed and power.  I am not enamored, however, of its total lack of versatility.  The problem is that I am not sure what to run in my board.  I know that a starting board of 4 Forces and 4 Duresses is a good beginning, but I'm unsure as to where to go from there.  My metagame is very balanced; people run everything from Slaver to IT to Oath to OrbRod.  I look at the tournament report linked to in the other thread, but apart from the tips regardng the use of Force of Will, I wasn't able to glean anything from it.  Could I get any help from you guys towards finalizing a sideboard and tips on how to use it?  Thanks in advance.

[AJFirst]

Twister, Windfall, 2 Hyrkal's Recall, Tropical Island, 4 Force of Will, 4 Duress, 2 Chain of Vapor.

That's what we were messing with, but we chucked the idea as a whole about two weeks ago because there are just waaay too many Chalices/FoWs/Null Rods in the area to play it without being ensured a winning dice roll every round.
-AJ

[ErkBek]

I've been running Steve's current list -1 Iseal -1 Vamp +2 Sleight of hand

The Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Green Fetches
1 Bayou
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor

After fishing the deck for a while, I decided that I wanted to have 2 sideboards, one for control and the other for stax.  After about 15 games of testing this became my SB plan

Vs. Control
-4 Land Grant
-1 LED
-1 Sleight of hand
-2 Darkwater Egg
-1 Repeal
+4 Xantid Swarm
+4 Fetchlands
+1 Bayou

By dropping 4-ofs to 3-ofs the deck’s consistency wasn’t really affected all that much.  Darkwater egg isn’t as crucial to the game plan since this build tries to win on turn 3ish after pulling their FoW with Xantid or just going in protected after a swing from the insect.  Spoils for Xantid, play xantid was actually a fairly common turn 1 play.  I also found 8 lands to be helpful, since it is important to play xantid off a land so you still have mana the next turn for comboing.

Vs. Stax (only on the draw)
-1 LED
-1 Yawg Will
-2 Night’s Whisper
-1 Crome Mox
-1 Chromatic Sphere
+4 Force of Will
+2 Chain of Vapor

Stax only has a few cards that actually do stuff Chalice, Null Rod, 2 and 3 Sphere.  Force deals with all of these well, especially assuming that they will only have 1 of them in there opening hand.  Yawg will is boarded out since it doesn’t do a whole lot on its own, and its not really all that amazing in this deck.  I only got in a few games post board vs. Uba, but I won 3-0 (going second each game).  On the play vs. stax I plan to just keep the maindeck, so I’ll likely win on turn 1.

Unfortunately, oath and fish wouldn’t be addressed very well, and would fit into the stax SB plan. 

Another problem is you turn 1 kill them, what do I bring in? I’ll try to do a lot of scouting to know what everybody is running, but in the case that I don’t, I bring in the stax SB.

-Eric

[Implacable]

You could argue that Fish doesn't really have to be dealt with as much. 

Meandeck Player: "You play disruption that comes out on turn 2?  That's cute."

Fish Player: "Nuh-uh!  I have FoW!"

Meandeck Player: "So do I."

On the other hand, ICBM Oath can be a tough matchup.  Thankfully, we only have 1 or 2 in my area.

[ErkBek]

On the other hand, ICBM Oath can be a tough matchup.  Thankfully, we only have 1 or 2 in my area.

ICBM oath is the deck's worst matchup followed by URBana fish. FoW, duress, drain/leak, Rod, and chalice are all problematic.

I nearly played this deck last weekend in a tourney for a twister, but upon entering the tournament I saw 2 people running oath, so I audibled to IT.

[Smmenen]

But you would have won most of your matches on turn one!

Eric, if you are tournament capable of playing this deck I have even more respect for you than I already have.  Your skills are great indeed. 

Eric's sb analysis looks great. 

[ErkBek]

Why did this get moved to the newbie forum? I proposed a legit sideboard plan. Do you guys think this deck is that bad?

[Implacable]

That sideboarding plan looks really good to me.  The only thing that I might question is Xantid Swarm.  Playing against Forces, I sometimes prefer to just blitz with my own Forces and Duresses as covering fire.  Do you find that Xantids slow you down a bit?

[ErkBek]

The problem with FoW is that slows you from comboing since you can't play all your spells. On the play Fow creates 5 card hands with FoW and a blue card, this probably won't work. I don't think duress will be all that effective because you always duress the FoW leaving your opponent with draw spells or maybe even a mana drain......so you better combo them out very shortly. Also on the draw, duress into BS = bad times. The beauty of Xantid is that he must be FoW'd or else your opponent better combo you out first, which is very unlikely. FoW'ing the xantid will result in them pitching another counter or draw spell hindering their deck's ability to combo or find more counters.

I haven't tested Duress or FoW vs. control, but I can't see adding 8 disruption spells not slowing you down much more than the xantid + fetchland plan.

[Bum_of_keld]

Hey kobe, i was wondering why exactly you dropped the black tutors. Yeah they are clunky but they do win games occasionally and i always have trouble getting the extra blue for the AR and the brainstorm, let alone for something as minimal as sleight. Was it because you thought they would be better in the real world? Because when you are going for the turn one break neck like you vs. stax then the tutors are probably better, but when i use the tutors i always go "all in" and cant do one of those stop with 2 permenant sources and an extra draw/land drop to finish it next turn and hope they don't drop something you don't want to see. Just curios on that. And yeah that oath matchup makes me shudder, chalice fow null rod ugh. Lets just hope no ones listening to ICBM 

And incidentally, if people are really expecting alot of combo at Richmond, which control decks would go to hate in the board? Slaver used to when TPS was big and it wouldn't be that hard for them to throw some labs in or something and that would be an autowin that with our new slow deck we could never beat. Basically, what do you think the chances are that people are going to be prepared for this? The deck feels sort of like affinity in old extended, incredibly powerfull and incredibly fragile in the sideboard game without and real good answers of its own.

[ErkBek]

Hey kobe, i was wondering why exactly you dropped the black tutors. Yeah they are clunky but they do win games occasionally and i always have trouble getting the extra blue for the AR and the brainstorm, let alone for something as minimal as sleight. Was it because you thought they would be better in the real world? Because when you are going for the turn one break neck like you vs. stax then the tutors are probably better, but when i use the tutors i always go "all in" and cant do one of those stop with 2 permenant sources and an extra draw/land drop to finish it next turn and hope they don't drop something you don't want to see. Just curios on that. And yeah that oath matchup makes me shudder, chalice fow null rod ugh. Lets just hope no ones listening to ICBM 

And incidentally, if people are really expecting alot of combo at Richmond, which control decks would go to hate in the board? Slaver used to when TPS was big and it wouldn't be that hard for them to throw some labs in or something and that would be an autowin that with our new slow deck we could never beat. Basically, what do you think the chances are that people are going to be prepared for this? The deck feels sort of like affinity in old extended, incredibly powerfull and incredibly fragile in the sideboard game without and real good answers of its own.

@ playing this deck in Rochester: I haven't tested it enough yet, but my results have been positive vs. stax, slaver, and gifts. However, I'm not going to waste my time testing the the fish or oath matchup because I know what's going to happen, you are going to lose about 80% of the time. That seems pretty bad considering steve's metagame prediction of 20 -25% fish and 10% oath. The metagame isn't right for it.

@ black tutors: What are you gonna get with Vamp or Iseal?

[Implacable]

Hey kobe, i was wondering why exactly you dropped the black tutors. Yeah they are clunky but they do win games occasionally and i always have trouble getting the extra blue for the AR and the brainstorm, let alone for something as minimal as sleight. Was it because you thought they would be better in the real world? Because when you are going for the turn one break neck like you vs. stax then the tutors are probably better, but when i use the tutors i always go "all in" and cant do one of those stop with 2 permenant sources and an extra draw/land drop to finish it next turn and hope they don't drop something you don't want to see. Just curios on that. And yeah that oath matchup makes me shudder, chalice fow null rod ugh. Lets just hope no ones listening to ICBM 

And incidentally, if people are really expecting alot of combo at Richmond, which control decks would go to hate in the board? Slaver used to when TPS was big and it wouldn't be that hard for them to throw some labs in or something and that would be an autowin that with our new slow deck we could never beat. Basically, what do you think the chances are that people are going to be prepared for this? The deck feels sort of like affinity in old extended, incredibly powerfull and incredibly fragile in the sideboard game without and real good answers of its own.

@ playing this deck in Rochester: I haven't tested it enough yet, but my results have been positive vs. stax, slaver, and gifts. However, I'm not going to waste my time testing the the fish or oath matchup because I know what's going to happen, you are going to lose about 80% of the time. That seems pretty bad considering steve's metagame prediction of 20 -25% fish and 10% oath. The metagame isn't right for it.

@ black tutors: What are you gonna get with Vamp or Iseal?

YawgWill, Recall, or Lotus.  Combined the Eggs and Spheres, I really like Vamp/Seal.  They're an excellent way to get what you need; in a sense, they're a lot like a Spoils or Consult, in that you just have to decide before you cast them whether you want mana or cards (or, in the case of Will, both).

[ErkBek]

@ black tutors: What are you gonna get with Vamp or Iseal?

YawgWill, Recall, or Lotus.  Combined the Eggs and Spheres, I really like Vamp/Seal.  They're an excellent way to get what you need; in a sense, they're a lot like a Spoils or Consult, in that you just have to decide before you cast them whether you want mana or cards (or, in the case of Will, both).

Exactly, and that's the problem. This deck is not a yawgmoth's will deck at all. I normally don't like drawing it all that much since it doesn't do a whole lot on its own. Think about it. Normally your graveyard looks something like this

3x Sphere/Egg/Brainstorm/Night's Whisper
1x Ritual
1-2x Variable

This deck does an excellent job using its moxen to power out tendrils, however these don't produce mana with will. The only cards that make mana with will are

8 rituals
1 Lotus
1 LED
1 Petal

You only see about 10-13 cards a game, so you aren't going to see too many of these.

Ancestral isn't a good target because it basically makes the tutor a bad night's whisper.

Lotus is the most common target in my experience. This play isn't particularly strong though because it usually cost you 1 mana to draw the lotus and 1 to tutor it up, a net gain of 1 mana at the cost of 2 cards.

[Implacable]

This is just based on my experience, but I really disagree with you when you say that Yawgmoth's Will isn't a real house in this deck.  The way I go for goldfishing, I think that about 60% of the hands you get gravitate towards a threshhold-oriented strategy.  The way that it often happens is that I do stuff, leave 2 floating, Cabal for five, Will, Cabal, win.  How does the deck normally work for you?

[ErkBek]

This is just based on my experience, but I really disagree with you when you say that Yawgmoth's Will isn't a real house in this deck.  The way I go for goldfishing, I think that about 60% of the hands you get gravitate towards a threshited strategy.  The way that it often happens is that I do stuff, leave 2 floating, Cabal for five, Will, Cabal, win.  How does the deck normally work for you?

What turn are you killing on? My break down is

Turn 1 - 67%
Turn 2 - 10%
Turn 3/suicide - 23%

Also, Cabal rit -> Will -> Cabal rit doesn't net you any mana, or find you tendrils. All it does is up the storm count, which shouldn't matter since you probably have a large storm count if you've got threshold. How many games do you cast yawg will?

You are right, I have been downplaying Will in the deck. Some games it straight up wins you the game, while others it clogs up the goldfish (not doing anything on its own). Tutoring for Will often times seems like a poor play since it always cost 2 mana and sometimes a card too (a topdeck tutor (one B) and a cantrip effect (one more mana). With all this said, less goldfishing and more playing actual matchups may result in me adding the topdeck tutors back into the deck, but I think its kinda unlikely. 

One observatioin that I've made is that I'm really not liking LED in the deck at all without the topdeck tutors. Drawing LED sucks when you've got a tendrils in hand. I've also been fishing with 2 careful study in place of the topdeck tutors where I used to run sleights. So far I've really liked them for filtering which I have found to be a problem if I don't draw a brainstorm. I lose far to many games to drawing 4 eggs, 2/3 tendrils, 2 night's whisper, etc. Careful study also creates threshold easily too.

I plan to keep working with this deck. I'm gonna try Horden tendrils out for a while for some new ideas.

[Implacable]

This is just based on my experience, but I really disagree with you when you say that Yawgmoth's Will isn't a real house in this deck.  The way I go for goldfishing, I think that about 60% of the hands you get gravitate towards a threshited strategy.  The way that it often happens is that I do stuff, leave 2 floating, Cabal for five, Will, Cabal, win.  How does the deck normally work for you?

What turn are you killing on? My break down is

Turn 1 - 67%
Turn 2 - 10%
Turn 3/suicide - 23%

Also, Cabal rit -> Will -> Cabal rit doesn't net you any mana, or find you tendrils. All it does is up the storm count, which shit matter since you probably have a large storm count if you've got threshold. How many games do you cast yawg will?

You are right, I have been downplaying Will in the deck. Some games it straight up wins you the game, while others it clogs up the goldfish (not doing anything on its own). Tutoring for Will often times seems like a poor play since it always cost 2 mana and sometimes a card too (a topdeck tutor (one B) and a cantrip effect (one more mana). With all this said, less goldfishing and more playing actual matchups may result in me adding the topdeck tutors back into the deck, but I think its kinda unlikely. 

One observatioin that I've made is that I'm really not liking LED in the deck at all without the topdeck tutors. Drawing LED sucks when you've got a tendrils in hand. I've also been fishing with 2 careful study in place of the topdeck tutors where I used to run sleights. So far I've really liked them for filtering which I have found to be a problem if I don't draw a brainstorm. I lose far to many games to drawing 4 eggs, 2/3 tendrils, 2 night's whisper, etc. Careful study also creates threshold easily too.

I plan to keep working with this deck. I'm gonna try Horden tendrils out for a while for some new ideas.

My breakdown is roughly the same as yours.  What Cabal-->Will-->Cabal does is let you maintain mana parity while giving you access to your grave.  It does seem like cutting the tutors starts a chain reaction here.  If you cut the Tutors, LED gets worse, and if you cut LED, Will gets worse.  Obviously, messing with the decks can lead to some problems in the fundamental stability of it. 

[InfinityCircuit]

I completely agree, kobefan, that Careful Study is a great addition to this deck.  It filters extra cards and helps to dig deeper.  Moreover, I've found that it helps overcome the deck's disynergy with Yawgmoth's Will and LED.  Careful Study is a great threshold enabler, and allowing earlier threshold Cabal Rituals into Yawgmoth Will, in which case I might actually need the extra storm and/or graveyard manipulation.  Finally, extra blue cards making siding in FoW all the more powerful.