[Triple Card Discussion] Static Orb / Winter Orb / Icy Manipulator

[Evenpence]

Static Orb
3
Artifact
If Static Orb is untapped, players can’t untap more than two permanents during their untap steps.

Obviously, this card does well to combo with Tangle Wire, effectively locking your opponent out of the game.  However, it locks you out of the game as well, as once you tap your stuff to your own Tangle Wire, you don't get to untap it as the ability of Static Orb is well...static, and not triggered.

It's moreover got a clause on it which reads "If Static Orb is untapped."  That means your tangle wire tapping your Static Orb is bad times.

Welder can obviously be used to abuse Static Orb's ability, but are there other ways as well?

Stax players rarely need more than a Workshop and a Mox to tap to play hardly anything in their deck.

Is Static Orb able to be abused, or even useful in a Stax-like deck, or is this artifact too detrimental to the controller of Static Orb? 

Could a card like Icy Manipulator become mainstay in future Stax builds to help with mana denial and drain-avoiding while comboing well with Static Orb and Trinisphere?

Or can a deck like Metalworker Staff use Static Orb to neutralize the opponent's effectiveness in the mid-game, allowing them to gum up the works while slowing themselves down not considerably?

Winter Orb
2
Artifact
As long as Winter Orb is untapped, players can’t untap more than one land during their untap steps.

Is Winter Orb a viable lock piece for the Stax archetype alongside Chalice of the Void + Mox Monkey or Null Rod?

Are these methods simpy too slow and old school for the current Vintage Metagame, or are the strategies viable with the rise of controlling decks in the metagame such as Control Slaver and ICBM Oath?

Is a list that looks like this:

4 Winter Orb
4 Icy Manipulator
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Monkey

Really that bad?  It looks to have sufficient mana control to beat both moxes and lands, and Icy Manipulator can both be used to tap out your Winter Orb to get all your lands back online, or to continually shut off your opponent once he's at one land - forcing him to never get past one mana in his main, two during his upkeep.  Not to mention the possibility of Wasteland/Strip Mine being thrown in here.

Couple this with other cards, and we might have a new strategy on our hands.

How effective are the orbs and manipulator against the current decks in the metagame?

[Harlequin]

I think the Static Orb will punish you as much as it does them, so I would be reluctant to use static orb. 

Winter's Orb I actually DID test in worker/staff.  I found it lacking.  If your going to take a crack at It I think 4 chalice are a must, as well as Mox monkey and possibly other artifact hate that can control Null Rod.  Another possability is Loadstone Myr as a "tap my artifact EOT" sort of thing that doubles as a wincondition. 

You also might consider some other powerful artifacts like Gilded Lotus.  and Un-tappers like Candelabra and Voltaic Key.


All in all, I don't think this stratigy will be strong enough.  Land, repeal chalice, Mox-Strike!  will be your biggested issue.

[Juggernaut GO]

you can always go old school and run relic barrier

[dandan]

I haven't run WOrbIcy since they castrated Power Sink. I think the lock is far too slow for Vintage today and is at best a soft lock (unless you get your 1 Trinisphere). I could see WOrb being a viable SB card against some decks but I honestly feel that it is better to 'just win' than try to muck around with an opponent.

[yespuhyren]

you can always go old school and run relic barrier

Relic Barrier isn't really that bad.  It DOES tap down Colossus, Titan, Trike, etc

[dicemanx]

Colby, have you noticed that some MUD decks have been doing well in Europe with Winter Orb? The card makes more sense in builds where you can readily attack their artifact mana base and exploit the power of WOrb (CotV, Karn, Tangle Wire, even Rishadan Port)

[MuzzonoAmi]

Theoretically, I agree that WOrb could work, but I think Static Orb is just plain better. Relic Barrier out of the board could be busted. Also, there's enormous synergy with Pyrostatic Pillar to be explored, and with Shops at their weakest in a long time, that card is an absolute wrecking ball right now.

[RaZe]

Static Orb would work better for Legacy. But with the low casting cost of tutors and draws [2U for TfK, 3U for Gifts] makes the effect hardly noticable unless backed up by Trini/Resistors. In which you are worse of since Workshop tends to use up it's mana resources on every turn. I think Null Rod works good enough for Vintage. Winter Orb is a nice idea, but that is only if your opponent casts a lot of spells per turn. Stax's main problem is it's slow clock which doesn't put pressure on the opponent so they just sit around until they get the mana they need and 'rebuild' from there. Even if winter orb was in play, it won't affect most drain decks since they will just wait for "must counter" cards, in which they only need to tap 2 lands. While the 3CC spells are 'win' spells, and one of the most problematic one of them happens to bounce back Orb back to your hand.

[The Chosen One]

Tapping static orb to bump a lodestone myr wouldnt be so bad. The same goes for the winter orb too. hey why not throw howling mine in there?

[jpmeyer]

I ran Winter Orb in Stacker like 6 years ago when I first made the deck.  It was good and all but 1) you needed to run a way to handle Moxes and 2) that was before we had cards like Trinisphere and Crucible of Worlds.

[Mantis]

The main problem that arises in the case of Static Orb/W.Orb + Icy Maniplutor is that you need both lockpieces to resolve and stick to make it work. Smokestack and Crucible for example work well together but are useful apart from each other as well, I'm really not sure if Icy or Static Orb are really that strong without each other. Nevertheless the might prove effective if one could power these out before Drain mana or something else that restricts your plan comes online.

This would probably be the case in a Mono Brown deck which raises another dillema, namely to stop Artifact mana. Null Rod + Metalworker is obviously not an option so that leaves only Chalice of the Void. Or would a mono red version be better? Gorilla Shaman and Mox Monkey open up perspective and Barbarian Ring is just awesome in Stax. I think it would be a good move to cut Wasteland for Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors to unload fast. This also makes you less dependant on Workshop and gives you more mana under Static/Winter Orb.

Stax should go for the Metalworker route I think. Metalworker/Workshop/Ancient Tomb just makes running those expensive artifacts that much easier. There's just one thing that's for sure: Moxen must be stopped. Forgot about Relic Barrier, that card is insane. Powerful synergy with Static Orb and it taps down Moxen.

And Evenpence I'm really curious what list you have in mind, share it to the world!

[Moxlotus]

I was working with a Shop aggro deck that ran Orbs about 2 months ago when I realized CoW+Waste isn't so hot anymore.  It still didn't work out because you need to have Rod on the table and a clock.  If one of those pieces is countered, you're screwed.

[Evenpence]

And Evenpence I'm really curious what list you have in mind, share it to the world!

I don't have any particular list in mind.  I'm simply wondering what people think about these cards.

To my overwhelming surprise, the cards haven't been harshly dismissed, and this thread continues to remain in the Open Forum, and has not been downsized to the Improvement Forum.  Go TMD.

Out of the three, Winter Orb stands out to me as having the most potential as a lock piece.  Being two mana (which is extremely doable), and abuseable with tap effects as well as other lock pieces in the deck shows that Winter Orb might have potential.

So, yeah, just looking to spark up some discussion on the cards.  Winter Orb seems like it can be promising.

[vroman]

has anyone here actually tested static orb?
I have. it sucks. it punishes ppl the more permanents they play. stax plays more permanents than anyone. hence S-orb hurts you more than them = wrong choice.
orb of dreams is the only ball that actually helps.

[xycsoscyx]

I have been playing against a lot of aggro decks lately, and that can really hurt Stax if they get out a few critters fast.  One thing I have been looking into for a while now is Static Orb and The Tabernable at Pendrell Vale.  Both cards do create effective disruption by themselves, Tabernacle helps by forcing aggro decks to either pay mana to keep critters out, or let them die and cast new critters.  Static Orb helps lock them down, especially when coupled with land destruction so that don't have much left.

Also, it was posted that Stax plays more permanents than anyone, and that Static Orb hurts them more, but what do you actually need untapped in a Stax deck?  If you have a lock out, then you just sit there and keep it out, slowly beatting with your Welder each turn.  I don't think Static Orb AND Tangle Wire are the best solution (as that does hurt you just as much), but it can definitely be a viable alternative to Tangle Wire depending on your environment.  It can also go well WITH Orb of Dreams, meaning they don't get to use things right away, and they have to decide what to use the next turn, even.

[Rock Lee]

just to reinforce what others have said:

static orb seems like it could be broken in a metalworker deck (untap metalworker + orb, dump hand, combo out, lock out, or lay down the smack.

If the orb were to see play, I would definetely see it with lodestone Myr, for their EOT boost win condition. As lodestone is often a Juggernaut+ if you tap EoT you can remain under the static orb lock, or tap it down to go lethal.

Static orb won't work in massive-permanent type decks like Uba or Traditional Staxx. But for people like Evenpeace who are CRAZY, I think it has serious potential.

[xycsoscyx]

Why doesn't it work for massive permanent based decks?  In a traditional 5c Stax deck, what do you need untapped other then a Shop plus another Mana Source?  Everything works tapped, so why bother untapping, as long as you have your opponent locked down.  Welder tricks to avoid the effect yourself only make it stronger.

Again, I may just be missing something here, but I really don't understand why Stax would worry about not being able to untap it's permanents?  Most other decks have to worry, Fish wants it's mana and creatures, Combo wants it's mana, Gifts wants it's mana, etcetcetc.  It's even worse if Stax waits to destroy lands or Mox, let them untap the two that they want, then destroy those during their Upkeep. 

[Rock Lee]

I'm sure Evenpeace and others would be able to give more insight on this, but I was under the impression that Staxx capitalizes on untapping less and sacrificing less (or at least less first), while plugging out your win.

The problem I forsee is Static orb removes the fading/upkeep decisions and sets everyone at a flat 2. So where the previous goal was to acquire massive permanents to have sacrifices long enough to outlast your opponent, now those massive permanents are tapped out and doing your nothing.

I think the idea of this arguement is to use static orb effectively, not if it can be run in current staxx. it "could" be run in staxx, but so could wORB/relicbarrier/forcefield. I think a deck that could use static orb effectively is one that can maintain and build an advantageous situation while keeping only 1 permanent (or less) untapped.

If a build of staxx can do this, then I say the orb is a welcome inclusion.