Niv-Mizzet makes Top 8 in Iserlohn: A look at 4cC

[Dozer]

A look at recent 4cC, taking CAB to a T8

At the recent Iserlohn (Sunday, June 4th), Womprax made T8 with a recent incarnation of 4cC that was developed that very weekend. The decklist featured Hide // Seek, which has been talked about both here on TMD and currently on SCG, and Guildpact's favorite dragon, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.

The list, with slight revisions after the tournament:

"(Z->)90° - (E-N²W)90°t = 1"

-- Blue (17)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

-- Black (8)
3 Skeletal Scrying
2 Night’s Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

-- Gold (4)
2 Hide/Seek
1 Fire/Ice
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind

-- White (3)
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

-- Red (1)
1 Gorilla Shaman

-- Artifacts (9)
*1 Isochron Scepter
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

-- Lands (18)
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 City of Brass

*Scepter is a post-tournament addition, which was Gorilla Shaman #2 in Wompi's deck. /edit: Put in the missing Gorilla Shaman.

This decklist breaks one fundamental rule of the format that Azhrei had propagated a long time ago: Don't play anything that costs more than 4 unless it wins you the game. Niv-Mizzet costs six (with double red) and is vulnerable to creature removal, Red and Blue Elemental Blasts, and is a giant Mana Drain target. However, the dragon is ridiculous once it's down. Without any help, it draws you an extra card a turn and shocks your opponent for two.

Every draw spell in the deck, though, makes Niv-Mizzet positively insane. Every Brainstorm becomes a Lightning Bolt. Every Skeletal Scrying gets a free Fireball attached. LoA becomes a Tim. That offsets the four mana rule: The deck is full of synergy just with the existence of Niv-Mizzet and draw spells. Once you have Niv-Mizzet active, it becomes very hard to lose the game, and the rest of the deck is geared to take you there.

Drawing Cards

The card drawing of this deck is high and resilient. Night's Whisper has never taken off, because the sorcery speed stopped many people from actually trying it in a control deck. But, what other options are there? Control decks traditionally only have a few card-drawing engines to chose from:
- Ohidian/ Ninjas
- Intuition/ AK
- Thirst for Knowledge
- Merchant Scroll/ Gifts Ungiven
- Skeletal Scrying

The Ophidian route hasn't been tried for true control decks for a while, mainly for speed reasons. With decks like Control Slaver and Gifts Ungiven rampant, a card advantage strategy that pays out over a steady trickle across a whole game doesn't cut the mustard. AK/ Intuition has mostly been used in conjunction with Psychatog, where the enourmous one-time boost was enough to push the deck over the edge. Thirst and Gifts need decks built around them, and the Merchant-Scroll-based approach suffers from the same one-shot problem that Intuition/AK has.

Skeletal Scrying was the draw spell of choice in traditional 4cC, where the flexible spell provided early-game shots, mid-game refills and also a tremendous late-game capacity. As an instant, Scrying could (and can) be used whenever an opening presented itself. Scrying has the same function in the above deck.

In the early game, Night's Whisper fills the same role, only more efficient. Scrying always had the problem that an early Scrying sometimes wasn't possible when low velocity brought no cards to the graveyard. Night's Whisper does not have that limitation. It's also cheaper. Two mana for two cards is a very good deal.

The fact that you have to play the Scrying on your main phase cannot be forgotten. How you handle that is very match-up dependent. On the play, with a land-mox opening, playing Night's Whisper is almost never wrong unless you have the Sapphire and Drain in hand. Just think about what you normally do with a land-mox opening in a control deck? Most often, you pass the turn. Night's Whisper gives you a possible action where you had none before, much like Merchant Scroll does in MD Gifts.

Besides that, Night's Whisper remains a cheap card drawer you can sneak in during any phase of the game, when you have your protection up or another plan in hand. It's versatile, but not as good as Scrying is -- that's why the two cards are split 2/3. Scrying is the better card, but also the one that you don't really want four of, while Night's Whisper also becomes weaker the longer the game goes and that's why you don't want four of that, either. With the 2/3 split, you're happy to see either whenever it shows up.

**Aside:** Kim Kluck and Wompi, who built the deck together, wanted a real card drawer in that slot, one that gets you closer to the meat of the deck. Merchant Scroll would have been a possibility, but Night's Whisper is just better on its own. Merchant Scroll does nothing impressive here besides fetching Recall and maybe Fire/Ice. You want to be more mana-efficient in the early game. Also, with Niv-Mizzet in play, you really rather want to draw Night's Whisper than Merchant Scroll. Niv-Mizzet is huge. **end aside**

Gaining Life

The deck has one issue that both Night's Whisper and Sceletal Scrying help to create: Self-induced loss of life. Traditional 4cC used to combat this with Exalted Angel's lifegain ability. This deck has the Seek half of Hide//Seek to help out there. Hide//Seek fulfills multiple roles: It works as Renewed Faith, Extract and Disenchant all in one card. The recent emergence of Jester's Cap as cornerstone for Workshop decks has shown that manipulating an opponent's library can be very strong.

Seek is especially good against Gifts decks with Colossus and Tendrils as win conditions, because removing the Colossus simultaneously forces them to play a bigger Tendrils. Also, other than the actual Disenchant, Hide can deal with an in-play Colossus when you don't have Swords. Against Oath, taking out one of the win conditions is strong for similar reasons. The Hide part of the card comes in particularly useful against Slaver and other Welder-based decks, because it can fizzle a Welding and prevents artifacts from hitting the graveyard.

Hide//Seek fills a role that no other single card could fill in this deck. It gives the deck a way to handle artifacts and enchantments (including DSC in play) without playing a card that is potentially dead in hand, has a potent lifegain-capacity and can pre-emptively take out an opponent's key card or even an entire strategy.

The inclusion of the Isochron Scepter in the deck is logical but not necessary. It was not present in Wompi's T8 deck. Scepter can be MVP and gives the

deck another angle of attack if the opportunity presents itself, but 4cC is by no means a dedicated Scepter deck. Scepter isn't new to 4cC either, as it has been tried in the past. It certainly depends on the environment you play in: If you expect lots of Null Rods, run a third Hide//Seek. If you can get the split-card on the Scepter, though, and you start hitting your opponent with it, it's just like a rich man's Jester's Cap with Moat attached. (Your opponent won't get damage through, and soon run out of options to deal damage with.)

When to choose the deck

The deck as it is seen above plays like all other control decks of its ilk: Get ahead on cards, stay alive and drop a win condition (a.k.a. Niv-Mizzet), then proceed to win from there. If that doesn't work, Tinker is always good.

The deck was constructed this way to fare well in a very open environment. To get to his 5-1-1 record, Womprax won against a WTF variant, Long, Goblins, Gifts and Oath, lost against the eventual tournament winner with Slaver and drew with another Gifts. It is not specifically built against a defined field. But the deck, as all 4cC variants, has the tools to deal with anything. And Niv-Mizzet is a combo-finish with the rest of the deck, since you can now kill people with everything from Brainstorm to Skeletal Scrying.

The deck still needs more testing, especially against Stax. Hide is cheap enough to help you out, but the lack of Wastelands means you have no way to deal with the Workshops themselves. Wompi had two Rack and Ruins and a Sacred Ground in the sideboard, which does bolster your options a fair bit. Against Slaver, you have a draw engine that can easily match theirs and you have more ways to deal with Welders than they have Welders.

Concerning Niv-Mizzet's casting cost, there is just enough red to cast the dragon but be prepared to use Lotus for Niv-Mizzet. The look on your opponent's face when you announce Lotus for RRR and drop the dragon is prizeless. It's fun to play with the Izzet Parun!

As a finishing caveat: I'm not saying this deck is the best ever, or that it can beat everything, or even that this is the best possible version. But it does have a lot of game against an open field thanks to versatility (Hide//Seek shines) and a very strong card drawing suite. It's
fun to play and adaptable.


Dozer


P.S.: Wompi's tournament sideboard:
3 Arcane Laboratory
1 Cranial Extraction
3 Duress
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Pyroclasm
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sacred Ground
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt

One card I felt he was missing is Platinum Angel, which helps with the lifeloss problem and provides a lot of time against combo, often enough to take the game from there.

I know this post sounds like another Keeper rehash, but I also believe that Hide//Seek is very strong and fits very well into this archetype. And while Niv-Mizzet may be slow, he is also insane. The fact that it comes with a 4/4 flying body is gravy; the ability is already insane and the extra card doesn't hurt, either. Niv-Mizzet forces an opponent to deal with him now or die. Remember that every draw triggers the dragon's ability individually, so a Brainstorm gives you three damage you can freely distribute between players and creatures. Niv-Mizzet is a total nightmare for every aggro deck. He's just like Masticore, only he draws a card instead of making you discard. Niv-Mizzet is insanely insane.

[zeus-online]

What do you do against heavy mana-denial? The decks mana-base looks extremely fragile.
Other then that, it looks interesting!

oh...and why run vampiric tutor? from my testing of similiar decks, i have found that having 2 card-disadvantage tutors just somehow dosnt work...how have they been working out for you?

/Zeus

[adrienger]

However, the dragon is ridiculous once it's down. Without any help, it draws you an extra card a turn and shocks your opponent for two.

how is it better than dark confidant?

they do pretty much the same thing but one costs 1B 

[Implacable]

However, the dragon is ridiculous once it's down. Without any help, it draws you an extra card a turn and shocks your opponent for two.

how is it better than dark confidant?

they do pretty much the same thing but one costs 1B 

Buh...  Wah?

Niv-Mizzet does damage^nth, maybe?

[UR]

I just can't see how this would be better than any other win condition. What makes Niv Mizzet worth the UURR2? Psychatog would be just as broken IMO...

P.S. I read the text... I just don't see how this is any more broken than the stuff that is already out there... (unless in a very aggro-heavy meta).

[goobafish]

This kinda proves the point that in a control deck, the win condition is almost irrelevant.

[jpmeyer]

Niv-Mizzet is a Psychatog that also Wraths your opponent's side and doesn't force you to discard your cards.

[Imsomniac101]

OMG. The guy who made Niv-Mizzet work in T1 must be insane. I love the deck.

I think your list is missing 1 Gorilla Shaman.

*Scepter is a post-tournament addition, which was Gorilla Shaman #2 in Wompi's deck.

I'm assuming there's 1 Shaman as your deck is 59 cards without it.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Niv-Mizzet is a Psychatog that also Wraths your opponent's side and doesn't force you to discard your cards.

And is infinitely harder to cast.  I just don't see how a deck that runs 3 lands that tap for red can consistently cast it.

[roberts91rom]

Actually he has 2xVolcanic, 1xCoB, 6xFetches, Mox Ruby, Lotus and 14 ways of digging/tutoring for red mana. I do not agree with running Niv-Mizzet however. He is a win-more card. If you can draw 18 cards AFTER dropping Niv, (Since you said you draw with him rather than attack for 4. We are also assuming 2 fetches in a game of Control vs. Control.) then you have won. You might as well just tinker for DSC or go for the tendrils kill. He is just a more complicated method of winning. All this seems like is Gifts with life loss black card-drawing instead of Gifts, Niv instead of Burning Wish and a different array of answers. Don't take this the wrong way. This deck is extremely cool and I love the ability of Niv-Mizzet. The difference is you're willing to pay 2UURR, where I would rather pay 3U at instant speed and have a few Time-Walks built in because I win in 1-2 turns where as you win in 6-7turns.

Without any help, it draws you an extra card a turn and shocks your opponent for two.

[Edit] Oh, and to your note on the slaver match-up. I don't see how you can say you have a draw-engine that "easily mathces theirs". Your draw-engine is either a SORCERY speed 2/2 -2 life or a SORCERY speed BX/X -X life -X cards for Yawgmoths Will. Slaver has 3/2 +dumping cards for Welder (Notice it isn't - something?) at INSTANT speed plus most lists run 1xGifts. (Which my list does) You are comparing Night's Whisper to Thirst (Which is ridiculous) and Skeletal Scrying to Gifts+TfK (Which is even MORE ridiculous.) Slaver owns your draw-engine and no, I don't NEED welder to smash your face in. I just need to drain Niv-Mizzet.

[Womprax]

OMG. The guy who made Niv-Mizzet work in T1 must be insane. I love the deck.

Yeah.. everbody knows I am

First of all, the real decklist I played that sunday can be found at http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=420.
Me and Kim tested some decks before the tournament but none of them made us real happy. At one point I even built UR Phid with Niv-MIzzet to see if it works. Because the deck was still bad, we drove to a friend for further playtesting. In the car we joked around with some deck ideas and threw together a Keeper decklist with 4 Bob, 4 Ophi, 4 Whisper and 4 Scrying AND Niv-Mizzet (which was the running-gag that weekend). After some testing we had a build with 4 Scrying, 4 Whisper, Niv-Mizzet and no life gain. We looked through magic-cards.info to find a better way to gain life than renewed faith and stumbled over Hide/Seek. After 0.002 seconds we removed 1 Whisper for 1 Hide/Seek and the 4th Scrying became Balance.
So basically, we added Niv-Mizzet for fun but still, it won me 2-3 games where no other creature would have helped me.
Against UG-Madness, I was able to tutor up a Lotus, play Niv-Mizzet, cast Brainstorm into Night's Wisper ínto Brainstorm and clear his board. With Darksteel Colossus or MOrphling or Exalted Angel I would have lost the game. So still, even if he was more of a fun addition, i was really happy to have him in my deck.
No idea if I would play with Niv-Mizzet again, but i was really impressed by his power.

Night's Whispers were awesome because nobody ever countered these. And turn 1 Land -> Mox -> Whisper is a great start. You draw 2 cards while a turn 1 Dark Confidant can still be Fired/Stpd/Lightning Bolted/Triskeliond before it gives you the same cardadvantage. And Confidant can lose you way more life. One thing you really dont want in this deck.
Hide/Seek was so good, that we imediately added another one right after the tournamet.

This deck was a blast to play and it feels really good to be back into magic after like 15 months

[Dozer]

You are comparing Night's Whisper to Thirst (Which is ridiculous) and Skeletal Scrying to Gifts+TfK (Which is even MORE ridiculous.) Slaver owns your draw-engine and no, I don't NEED welder to smash your face in. I just need to drain Niv-Mizzet.

Comparing Night's Whisper to Thirst is a fair comparison in terms of card advantage. TfK has further implications (like getting artifacts in the graveyard) but with Night's Whisper, you pay one mana less than for TfK for the same amount of cards. You exchange instant for sorcery speed, but you pay less mana, which is not a problem in this deck.

Also, Scrying is an instant, not a sorcery. In my eyes, it's highly comparable to Gifts and a straight-out better draw-spell than TfK. It is adaptable, it can be relevant earlier than Gifts, and it can be bigger than Gifts in terms of pure numbers. Gifts is the stronger tutor, but when you aren't looking for tutoring capacity, Scrying wins the price. The two spells are being used differently, and fill a different role. A deck like this is very focused on answers and has less proactive plays (mainly just Tinker and Night's Whisper). That's why Scrying is good, keeping up the steady stream of removal, counters and mana and eventually developing into a win condition (or finding one, and the means to protect it). Scrying is also immune to Red Elemental Blast.

This deck is extremely cool and I love the ability of Niv-Mizzet. The difference is you're willing to pay 2UURR, where I would rather pay 3U at instant speed and have a few Time-Walks built in because I win in 1-2 turns where as you win in 6-7turns.

With the dragon in play, every turn you have to decide if you are far enough ahead to forego the extra card and attack for four damage instead. Often, it's not worth it because the extra card you draw will get you draw spells for additional damage and keep you ahead. When you attack with Niv-Mizzet, you run the risk of parity -- but it's something you'll have to decide from situation to situation.

Remember that I don't need to draw the "18 extra cards" with the help of spells. Niv-Mizzet and your regular draw are already two cards and two damage a turn.
The deck doesn't need Niv-Mizzet, per se. What Goobafish said is true: the win condition is nearly irrelevant (as long as it's a good one). On the shell of the deck, many other win conditions could be grafted, no problem. What's important for me is: Something like Niv-Mizzet takes up only one slot. If you want Gifts, you'd have to devote at least four slots (3 Gifts, 1 Recoup), which would reduce the number of answers. Now, how many cards are there that actually win the game on their own? Which cards would rely on to take the game on their own with a single copy, and without extra setup? A short list: Morphling, Decree of Justice, Platinum Angel, DSC, maybe Exalted Angel and Sundering Titan, too. Belcher needs another card at least. Mindslaver needs a recursion engine. In a reactive control deck instead of a combo-control deck, you go with something that can stand on its own, and Niv-Mizzet is of that ilk (even without in-built protection like Morphling has).

I also take this deck into small local metagames rather than Gifts. That's because it is winning just as much there, and it's more fun. I understand your concerns about casting Niv-Mizzet. But try the following experiment: Take any deck with 4 Brainstorms and 6 other draw spells (not counting Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven), and on about turn nine, put Niv-Mizzet into play (just like that). Then you'll see why it's worth going for the dragon. But it's not Niv-Mizzet that makes the deck what it is. Just put Burning Wish in the Scepter slot and win however you want: Decree, Belcher, Grim Power, Noble Panther, Mountain Goat -- all would work.

It just so happens that Niv-Mizzet is very synergistic with the heart and meat of the deck.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Thirst also pitches to FoW and doesn't cost you life.

[edit]: Is this a "Revenge of 1997" type thread?

[chrissss]

Interesting read.

the only thing I don't like about the dragon, is that it only costs 2 colorless. a huge drain wont help you cast it, and it might even cost you burn. this said, I am going to test this dragon in my deck for sure I bought one on ebay a few days back for my dragon collection, and so I might as well use it.

[PacmanXSA]

While the decklist certainly looks fun and I really believe that Hide/Seek has a place in Vintage, I do believe that Niv-Mizzet probably won't last.  If you can resolve a 6cc spell against any control mirror, you've already won the game anyways.  While you would think that a 6cc spell should, in fact, win you the game, Niv-Mizzet certainly does not on its own, although he is pretty damn cool

Pac

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I personally think if you want to play expensive cards like Niv-Mizzet that allow "so many insane plays" I think you should think about sticking Future Sight in Keeper, if you resolve that you are taking the game waaaay home.

[Vreak]

I was the third Player to play the deck in that tournament, and even though I really didn't do that well, I liked it every game I played with it.
The first thing, that I liked about the deck is the look on your opponents face, when you Will in the late game and nuke them down with an Niv Mizzet in play.
The second thing was the fact, that my opponents literally never countered my Night's Whispers. The card is awesome, and while I do not want to compare it to TfK, because that card has an entirely different role to play in its deck, it generates a great deal of card advantage. As for skeletal scrying, I won like every single draw-go match I played with a topdecked scrying for 5 to 7, if I shot a duress up front, so I just think, that this card was on several occasions the best thing I could have drawn.

The biggest problem I had with the deck was the lifeloss, our draw-engine provided. On the already mentioned weekend before the tournament we only tested against CS, Gifts and Combo, just because we didn't have enough time for anything else, and that didn't make the lifeloss Problem obvious enough. That's why we cut the third Night's Whisper directly after the tournament and immediately added a second Hide//Seek.

Hide // Seek was totally amazing. In the tournament it provided three valuable services for me:
1. Removing the Colossus from a TPS deck is huge. He has to cast Tendrills for 15, instead of 10 now, which is a great, because it gives you enough time to find additional answers against him.
2. Playing Hide against Slaver or Stax is also great, because they can't Welder their Artifact back into play. (I removed a mindslaver that way which could have killed me the next turn )
3. Playing either Side against oath is also pretty good, because you either hide the oath or remove one of his beatsticks fast enough, so you only have to handle one of them.

All in all I have to say, that it is a really fun deck to play, even though I will probably not play the Dragon next time, because most of the the time he was more annoying than anything else.

So long

[MaxxMatt]

The deck is really interesting.
Giga-props to German players to dig through the new cards pool so deeply.

I have some quick questions:

The total number of Blue cards is 17 +1(NivMizzet) +1(F/I) = 19.
Back to UBW-3cc's Era, I found that number, really inconsistent to support FoWs *without* needing to remove crucial cards from the game.
I don't occur *too* often to be considered negative, but when it happens, the winning plan should be change *too much*. I feel nude when I'm holding a FoW and a Drawer spell without being able to play my counters ONLY if the drawer would luckily find for me another blue card.

I'm really impressed by Hide/Seek.
Conversely, I'm not sure about StPs at all.
It is totally off color, uneeded against almost any opponent, uneeded specifically because of Tinker, NivM and Balance, usually a good board control element that clunk your hand against all the Draw-Go decks.

I think that my field is really different from the Deutsch's one.
I cannot think about playing with StPs maindeck since at least 1 year.
I can see them as the perfect card to swap in against *some* form of aggrodecks.
Against Welders, I can see them useful, but as much as I play with a skeleton like the one you proposed, I see Needles more versatile, because you can freely name Wasteland against MW.decs and Fish.decs, saving your own mana base.

I'm confidant that playing with TFKs or NightWhispers would be a choice that would not change the entire porpouse of the deck, but would help a bit rise the blue cards' count.

I have to suggest ( because of playstyle and field adjustment ) those changes:

-2 Night's Whispers
-2 Sword to Plowshares
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Thirst for Knowledge

You can see those insertion, not necessarily as an improvement, but I have good feelings towards those changes. The deck gains a bit more of flexibility while increasing his ability to play with duals in play to support off colors spells.

LoA+NivM is really cool as the entire deck *after* NivM resolve.
You would find really intriguing drawing cards and killing opponents without paying more mana for it.

If there would be a nicer or wuicker way to put it into play, I think that it could be considered strictly better than Tinker+DSC. On the other hand, I don't see too many way to accomplish this idea, without playing Reanimator or Oath.

H/S are good insertions. With Needle out naming Wasteland, you can safely sculpt your board position and play with a deck that can perform really well against anything. Reversely, if you fall manascrewed or colorscrewed, there are really few things that can help you to recover and win.

Again, good work!
MaxxMatt

[Grand Inquisitor]

Not to be a wet blanket, but this card costs 6 mana at main phase speed.  This is the Vintage Open forum.

So far the chief arguments for this card are:
1) It's cool
2) It's good when going off with Yawgwill

You could be playing Yawgmoth's frickin' Bargain.

Perhaps you want to assume a more control roll, or the life for cards engine offers something new here, but I don't see it.

I'm a big fan of german ingenuity (in fact I'm going there in a week), but, regarding Niv-Mizzet, I don't see him spending a lot more time in T8's.

[Kasuras]

I'm not convinced either GI, but your summary of arguments lacks:

-1 card to kill, compared to 3 (Recoup, etc.)
-It actually does kill. I've seen suggestions of Future Sight and Y. Bargain, but they don't KILL. They give you an advantage, but neither say '0: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target player.'

Nonetheless, I am partially convinced on Niv but I'm really not that impressed with the deck: old 4cc could afford the lifeloss because of the killcondition, Exalted Angel. Am I wrong to see your changes as the following?

-Exalted Angel
+More expensive killcondition you can't cast off Drain
+Lifeloss
While nothing has changed with the fundamental idea behind such decks: controlling and slowly killing the opponent.

Sure, it looks pretty fun; but how does it REALLY increase your chances against aggro (your lifeloss + the occasional attacker WILL kill you over time) and combo (same, less life = less storm = less spells = easier).
I can see how your chances against current day's 'DSC' control are increased, but I don't see how you can justify that, in my opinion, marginal difference when looking at the other matchups that have not increased at all.

As said, I'm not convinced.

[netherspirit]

Not to be rude, but all you people who are saying that Niv-Mizzet is bad, have you actually tried testing him?!!! If new ideas aren't tried Vintage will become a very dull format.

[Cross]

I'm not convinced either GI, but your summary of arguments lacks:

-1 card to kill, compared to 3 (Recoup, etc.)
-It actually does kill. I've seen suggestions of Future Sight and Y. Bargain, but they don't KILL. They give you an advantage, but neither say '0: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target player.'

Getting bargain into play should be more than enough to kill your opponent a majority of the time.

Not to mention bargain can not be both REB'd and BEB'd.

[Kasuras]

Not to be rude, but all you people who are saying that Niv-Mizzet is bad, have you actually tried testing him?!!! If new ideas aren't tried Vintage will become a very dull format.

A deck with more lifeloss, no lifegain and a slower win condition than the already outdated 4cc seems interesting yet not interesting enough, yet, for me to test it right away. Moreover, I would expect the OP who has been playing the deck for a lot longer than me to give his insights rather than me testing the deck wrong.

Getting bargain into play should be more than enough to kill your opponent a majority of the time.

Not to mention bargain can not be both REB'd and BEB'd.

You seem to misunderstand mine and Dozer's arguments entirely;

My point was that bargain does NOT kill the opponent, ever. He puts you at an advantage, that's ALL. Stop with that argument because it's going to kill this good topic. You'll ALWAYS need something to kill the opponent. As Dozer mentioned, an advantage of Niv (and Morphling, Ex. Angel, etc.) is that it requires you to play but one card to actually kill the opponent instead of 2. (Tinker+DSC) This ALONE is not good enough to play Niv over anything else, but it is definitely something to consider.

[nataz]

A deck with more lifeloss, no lifegain

just an FYI

Hide/Seek
Card type: Instant
Casting cost: RW/WB

Oracle text: Put target artifact or enchantment on the bottom of its owner's library.
//
Search target opponent's library for a card and remove that card from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

+ like the entire paragraph entitled

Gaining Life

in the opening post should highlight why the angels aren't needed

[chrissss]

you know what would be great, having a bargain AND a dragon in play

then if you have more life than your opponent, you win the game.

the good things about the dragon is, that your draw becomes direct damage. ancestral recall becomes a 3card/3damage shooter, brainstorms become sick, and other draws combo great. plus you could attack for 4.

I was really suprised by hide // seek. first turn removing the 11/11 and gaining 11 life for 2 mana is great. and the encahntment / artifact removal. I am going to put it in more decks from now on.

[Purple Hat]

I was really suprised by hide // seek. first turn removing the 11/11 and gaining 11 life for 2 mana is great

this seems like an unreasonable thing to count on.  It requires you to have one of 2 one ofs, and hide/seek in your opening hand and your opponent not to counter seek with a DSC in their deck.


@ niv: is the draw ==> burn really much better than morphling's natural protection and ability to block or exalted angel's ability to morph, and life gain?  and is it really enough better to justify the unwieldy casting cost and ease of removal?

[chrissss]

this seems like an unreasonable thing to count on.  It requires you to have one of 2 one ofs, and hide/seek in your opening hand and your opponent not to counter seek with a DSC in their deck.

I was thinking of my deck. its a rd, black white deck, and the hide seek is very well in it. its a disenchant that can protect you own cards, and it removes big threats.
its also good once you donated illusions to your opponent

[Grand Inquisitor]

You seem to misunderstand mine and Dozer's arguments entirely

I'm not sure if Cross missed it, but I think you're point is irrelevant to good deck building.  If you're arguing that Niv streamlines your build by reducing the number of slots that you allocate to a win condition to one (which this list doesn't do), than you're taking an unnecessary risk in an environment that now has hide/seek to give you an auto-loss.  If you're trying to compare Niv to other cards that occupy that slot, I'll take burning wish, an actual tendrils and psychatog before I choose Niv.

I hope you see that while you can't literally kill someone else with YawgBargain (although I have seen one donated, Wicketsnatcher 4L), it will put you in a position to win the game far more often than Niv will.

[nataz]

4cc used to run 2-3 angels, so two hide//seek which are considerably easier to find ->cast doesn't seem that bad. Not to mention most decks in vintage have at least a few juicy targets for large amounts of life gain.

Not saying I <3 the deck or anything, just bringing up the point.

[LordHomerCat]

Not to be rude, but all you people who are saying that Niv-Mizzet is bad, have you actually tried testing him?!!! If new ideas aren't tried Vintage will become a very dull format.

A deck with more lifeloss, no lifegain and a slower win condition than the already outdated 4cc seems interesting yet not interesting enough, yet, for me to test it right away. Moreover, I would expect the OP who has been playing the deck for a lot longer than me to give his insights rather than me testing the deck wrong.

Getting bargain into play should be more than enough to kill your opponent a majority of the time.

Not to mention bargain can not be both REB'd and BEB'd.

You seem to misunderstand mine and Dozer's arguments entirely;

My point was that bargain does NOT kill the opponent, ever. He puts you at an advantage, that's ALL. Stop with that argument because it's going to kill this good topic. You'll ALWAYS need something to kill the opponent. As Dozer mentioned, an advantage of Niv (and Morphling, Ex. Angel, etc.) is that it requires you to play but one card to actually kill the opponent instead of 2. (Tinker+DSC) This ALONE is not good enough to play Niv over anything else, but it is definitely something to consider.

I guess they didn't read this argument when they made the deck either, since Tinker + DSC and Niv are all in the deck.  It seems like, as GI said, Wish for Tendrils or Psychatog or like even Morphling would be just as effective if not more.  Please don't say that "saving" one slot on Niv over like Colossus is somehow justification for a much clunkier, harder to cast monster.