[Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester

[Mr. Nightmare]

Incidentally, is this deck now the hardest to build? 

There were seven players playing it at both Rochester events.  How many of them needed NO proxies?  Maybe 2? 3? 

"Hardest" in the sense that you need to get cards that don't have much use aside from Grimlong.

3x Grim Tutor @ $125ea
1x Imperial Seal @ ~$175

Makes it tough to build.  At least the rest of the $ cards translate, which is the reason why the other expensive decks (UbaStax - Shops/Bazaars) seem cheaper now.

[LordHomerCat]

It seems mostly on par with Drain decks now, except you run Twister over maybe Library, and Grims + Imperial Seal vs. 4 Drains.  I imagine the prices are pretty close, compared to older Combo decks which were considerably easier (since nothing in them was expensive except the 9 power cards).

[Mr. Nightmare]

It seems mostly on par with Drain decks now, except you run Twister over maybe Library, and Grims + Imperial Seal vs. 4 Drains.  I imagine the prices are pretty close, compared to older Combo decks which were considerably easier (since nothing in them was expensive except the 9 power cards).

More to the point (the one I was trying to make), it's for the same reason that in general, cards like Drains are worth getting.  There's a lot of crossover between decks, and there are multiple decks where semi-power (drains, shops, bazaars) will be useful.  Grims don't have that.  It's a "virtual expense," if you will.  I think its a better comparison to Illusionary Mask rather than Drains.

[Pave]

Please excuse me if this has been discussed at length in premium articles, but I must ask: how crucial is the Collosus in the sideboard?  I presume it comes in against decks full of hate such as Stax (and perhaps Fish) as an alternate win condition, say when the board gets simply too locked down with Chalices and the like.  But why cede that battle and introduce a secondary opposing strategy?  Is Collosus simply too powerful to refuse in favour of another blue bounce spell such as Hurkyl's (or Rebuild)?

He may also come in as an alternate win condition against Extract, but again the same question applies?  Why cede that battle?  Why not bring in another Tendrils instead?

Is it because Collosus answers both such problems, in only one card, that it is included in the sideboard?  I'm very interested to hear Steve's and others' thoughts on the role and importance of Collosus post-board.

[Smmenen]

I have since cut Colossus from my board.   It caused me to draw a match I should have won in day one. 

It is good against Fish type decks, but there aren't many situations where Jar can't win as effectively. 

[Smmenen]

I go back and forth on the question.  I put it in only because the Fish decks changed more to have crap like True Believer more and more.  I wanted a win condition taht just obviated such tactics. 

[Liam-K]

I haven't really been following this thread, so sorry for dredging up something old.

But I'm really suprised to see you side out EVERY duress against drain.  Sometimes I feel like duress is just better than xantid!  You simply can't argue very well against the fact that it does something NOW and isn't dead.  Drawing duress instead of xantid has won me games against drain by not forcing me to pass the turn and spread out my expendable resources.  I often hate seeing xantid when I'm throwing my weight around with the deck but am not ready to kick my way through the counter wall and win.

I hate time walk for the same reason.  It's good if you start a turn with it (or necro into it as you point out) but it's pretty much dead if you draw it mid-going-nuts.  And sometimes you can be going nuts without having a safe path to lethal tendrils.

[rureddy31]

Duress is usually just better against drain decks then force is as well...I think Steve underestimates Duress. I'm still not sold on FoW.

[NaNaKy3k]

But game 2 your opponent will bring in cards from his sideboard that you should Fow.

If your oponents do it, just replace the xantids and other green cards for fows

If it doesnt, go for the Xantid&duress route

Thats why Fow is in your Sb, to kill the answers that your oponent will be bringing in

[seer]

Grim Tutor isn't to Bazaar level price yet but it's getting close. I would predict that no one will be selling them for less than $150 at Gen Con.

I think this might make it so we see less grim long than we might otherwise at GenCon. I'm sure there will still be 20+ players who could field it though.

[BreathWeapon]

Duress is such a terrible card for reasons I mentioned earlier, it has a 50/50 chance of being relevant against Stax game one and exposes the manabase. I don't think the ability to play it off Dark Ritual is all that great, because most control players Force of Will the Dark Ritual so you can't Duress and resolve a Grim Tutor for Black Lotus. If I have to blindly play a disruption  card in my first game against an unkown deck I'd rather play a Xantid Swarm, which will attract a Force of Will or let me go into gold fish vs blue decks. Maybe it's simply a question of playstyle, but I hate Duress in Storm combo, it's affect is unpredictable, coin flip dependant and inferior to alternatives games 2 and 3. Why sacrifice the SB space for Duress game one when you could move Xantid Swarms or Force of Will into the MD? I can assure you that there are all sorts of possible applications for that SB space from the Hurkyl's/ESG plan for Prison and Null Rod/Chalice of the Void Aggro, the Darksteel Colossus for True Believer, additional Tendril(s) for Extract, Hide/Seek or Jester's Cap or even Misdirection for a pitch counter wall to circumvent control's creature removal.

Duress is so out dated in combo, seriously.

[Implacable]

Just a quick question about sideboarding with Long.  Does anyone here have any real firm ideas on what to take out?  I'm running a pretty standard list, similiar to Menendian's, but with Wish and no FoW's in the board.  What is the boarding strategy against Slaver?

[BreathWeapon]

I understand how Duress works in combo and why it was chosen to be a MD card, however that doesn't change the fact that those 4 SB cards could be dedicated to something more useful in the course of game, match or tournament and that MDing Xantid Swarms or Force of Will etc is a calculated risk. I board out Duress games 2 and 3 vs everything, that alone makes me question a card's merrit in any deck. The information it provides is often irrelevant, because if Xantid Swarm resolved the opponent's hand is moot, and the decision tree against Stax doesn't change, much, based on the information Duress provides because you've already commited yourself to a play that may or may not have been wise against them; if I knew my opponent was playing Stax game one, I'd rather go for the win than use any form of disruption. Granted, Xantid Swarm against Stax is terrible, but Stax hasn't been out in force for awhile and the difference in power level to Duress against a blue deck makes the gamble well worth it. If I saw a lot of Stax for whatever reason, I'd play Becker's build.

I just don't buy the argument on general utility, because Force of Will has more general utility than Xantid Swarm or Duress and no one is calling for it to be put in the MD. You can say I "don't understand" or it's my "play style," I use 4 MD Xantid Swarms, 4 Grim Tutor, Crop Rotation and no Time Walk and I win.

[Moxlotus]

To use FoW maindeck in a combo deck, then deck needs to be specifically tailored to be able to include it.  We concluded IT could only support 3 FoW maindeck max.  Pitchlong has 19.  Steve's Grim Long deck has 12.  If you cut Duress for FoW you have 16--hardly enough to be able to use it when you absolutely need it.  And that 16 includes many of the bombs you would want to resolve.  That is why FoW isn't maindeck in Grim Long.  And I'm assuming its one reason why Steve said he boards in the Chain of Vapors when he brings in FoWs--to bump it up to ~19 blue spells.

What does duress have that Xantid doesn't?  It gives you information.  You are on the play against unknown.  You play turn 1 xantid--do you play your moxen for fear of chalice or do you hold?  Duress would give you that information, Xantid doesn't.  This decision could easily be the game.  This is why Duress is played in 5 color Grim Long and not FoW or Xantid.

[Smmenen]

I've started the massive process of writing a detailed primer on the deck.  I submitted part one two week ago, but I think it got shoved out of SCG article cache to make way for the coldsnap reviews.  My guess is that it will be up early next week. 

Since its such a massive piece, i've broken it up.  Following part one, I've written an article called "Bluffing Drains and Storming Brains: Tips for playing control in Vintage." 

FYI.

Stephen

[Bakes]

most tourneys now are supplying 15 proxies at 1$ each after 10
proxy:
-grim tutor 4x
-moxen 5x
-black lotus 1x
-ancestral recall 1x
-time walk 1x
-imp seal 1x
---------------
14 proxies for budget players

[Harlequin]

I took Grim long to a real tournement for the first time this weekend.  and went 3 and 2.  Not bad for a first attempt. 

Force of will in the board is amazing.  I got to experiance what I think of as the posterchild for Force of Will in the board ... and thats turn 1 chalice for 1 (when your on the draw).  In the first 3 rounds, I won 2-0, 2-1, and 2-0 and was on the DRAW for all games accept 2.  Lets here it for winning on the draw!!  Force of will made those game 2 on the draws totally winnable.

Duress on the main was amazing.  there was a game that I had a turn 1 win, and could not duress.  We went to game 2 and I sided in my forces and I think 2 extra chains, but nothing else.  Then I got sho-owned.  I wish I had duressed so I knew to side it my Hurks.

There was one game, where I sided out all 4 duresses and regreted it.  I was going off and I had force/brainstorm.   My opponent had 5 cards in hand 2 open blue, and didn't counter will.  The only way I could loose is if he had double stifle (and he had 4 in the deck I think).  I had the win set up, with one metric ton of black mana, had tendrils, and had the option to tutor.  I tutored for duress to seal the deal... but I forgot that I sided them all out.  I REALLY wished that I had left one in the deck, because I always try and get a tutor -> duress into my winning turn.  For that reason, for the rest of the tournement I always kept 1 duress in my deck.

As for other general comments about playing:
-- Necro wins games.  I won SOOO many games standing on the sholders of necro.
-- I <3 FoW on the draw
-- Shop is rough. 
-- Crucible wasteland is rough.

[BreathWeapon]

Necroptence has to be the most powerful card in this deck, I win with it more than i win with Yawgmoth's Will games 2 and 3. People seem to be under the impression that discard hate for Yawgmoth's Will post board is an effective plan against Grim Long, it isn't thanks to Necropotence and to a lesser extent Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mind's Desire and the Draw 7's.

Just curious, do other people find themselves using Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual and Grim Tutor/Demonic Tutor to find either Mind's Desire or Tolarian Academy when one or the other is in hand with enough artifact accelerants to set up a Mind's Desire against a counter wall? I kept getting into situations where people knew I didn't have Duress, so the Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual wasn't countered in favor of the tutor target.

Here is the situation as it went down,

Opponent Turn One: Island, Mox Pearl, Merchant Scroll->Mana Drain.
Me Turn One: Draw, City of Brass, Pass.
Opponent Turn Two: Draw, Island, Pass. Me EOT: Brainstorm, Him EOT Force of Will removing Chain of Vapor from the game.

At this point here is what I concluded, the opponent had to begin the game with a Force of Will in hand and decided that Merchant Scroll for Mana Drain was the best move to set up a Gifts Ungiven. After I played a City of Brass he assumed I was playing Grim Long, and after I passed and tried to play Brainstorm on his EOT that I had a mediocre hand that needed to be otpimized and decided to use the Force of Will at this point so he could ensure his control of the stack with the Mana Drain and Drain into a threat on his next turn.

This is the hand as I drew it with the two card I top decked,

First grip

1 City of Brass
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Brainstorm (Drawn on the first turn)
1 Tolarian Academy (Drawn on the second turn)

I kept the first hand on the basis that City of Brass, Tap for 1 black, Mana Crypt, Tap for 2 colorless, Mana Vault, Cabal Ritual, Grim Tutor -> Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Tap for 1 black, Tap Mana Vault for 3 colorless, Demonic Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will, Black Lotus, Tap for 3 black, Yawgmoth's Will, Black Lotus, Tap for 3 black, Cabal Ritual, Demonic Tutor and Tendrils of the Agony was GG. If the opponent had no Force of Will I won, and if I drew another threat or land I could slow roll into a Necropotence and Draw 7.

The Merchant Scroll for Mana Drain screwed that entire plan, because I knew he had Force of Will and Mana Drain. Force of Will on Brainstorm was unexpected, and now I have to decide how I'm going to turn mana acceleration and tutors into a win vs a Mana Drain.

So I go with, Mana Crypt, Tap Mana Crypt for 2 colorless, Tap City of Brass for 1 black, Demonic Tutor->Mind's Desire, Mana Vault, Tap Mana Vault for 3 colorless Mox Jet, Tap Mox Jet for 1 black, Cabal Ritual, Tolarian Academy, Tap Tolarian Academy for 3 blue, Mind's Desire for 6, Mana Drain one copy on the stack, 5 cards from Mind's Desire hit Yawgmoth's Will and the game is over.

Now, I think the Force of Will on the Brainstorm was debatable, and not Mana Draining the Cabal Ritual was a mistake in hind sight that was made because there was no way he could know I had Tolarian Academy and had tutored for Mind's Desire instead of Yawgmoth's Will. I managed to sand bag the right cards and win the war of information, the question I have tho' is often do people set up Academy into Desire and is it an effective plan or just another reason to "counter the ritual?"

[Implacable]

Umm, not countering the Demonic Tutor was the big mistake on his part.  Your hand was busted, and it's certainly conceivable that you would have won anyway, but Draining DT would have slowed you down for the turn.  Because you play with cards that are in effect uncounterable, Tutors must always be countered.  The Forcing of your Brainstorm was a very good play on his part, because Brainstorm is absolutely critical to GrimLong's gameplan.

[houseplant]

I'm trying to make a 10 proxy grim long for a tournament this weekend. which not owning any power or the expensive portal cards is making it difficult.

right now the deck is.

land: 11
4 city of brass
3 gemstone mine
1 forbidden orchard
2 watery grave (all of our underground seas are in a different deck)
1 tolarian academy

artifacts: 12
5 moxes (proxy)
1 black lotus (proxy)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 memory jar
1 chromatic sphere (i don't know about this one, but can fix mana and give me a card)

instants: 16
4 brainstorm
1 chains of vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
1 vampiric tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 ancestral recall (proxy)

sorcery: 16
1 demonic tutor
3 grim tutor (proxy)
1 burning wish
1 tendrils of agony
1 wheel of fortune
1 tinker
1 windfall
1 minds desire
1 yawgmoths will
1 regrowth
4 duress

enchantments: 2
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoths bargain

creatures: 2
1 elvish spirit guide
1 xantid swarm

Sideboard right now is
4 force of wills
3 xantid swarms
3 chains of vapor
X elvish spirit guides
1 tendrils of agony
x ???

haven't finished the rest.

for the card changes.

i don't have imperial seal, don't know if i should go to 2 grim tutors and 1 seal or stay at 3 grim tutors,  the fact it goes to your hand is so important. right now instead of seal i have demonic consultation in the deck. that made me run burning wish so i have more of a chance of not instantly loosing when I consult. also because timetwister is not in the deck make consultation alright. twister really wants to recycle your library which if i consult for anything most of the library is probably gone.

the chromatic sphere is maybe for if i have a whole lot of colourless mana or blue mana i can make a black to win, and the fact if gives you a car helps with VT and MT. it might come out for sol ring though since i forgot about sol ring when i was making the deck.

for my meta I've noticed i NEED hurkyl's recall, so i put one in along with the chains. they both also work as amazing storm builders as everyone knows.


I like the sphere because one thing, I'm really used to this mono black storm deck my house build, so I'm not used to having to save more than just black mana. it also helps if i play a bunch of rituals then drop it get blue and tinker or something. or red and wheel. second it helps me make sure i can get the right colour at the right time. but it is slow so that is why there is only 1 in. i do need to find a spot for sol ring. 

my problem is i seem to fizzle a lot, but i think thats mainly my playing ability, it is a lot different then the other storm deck i used to play. just wondering if anyone has any ideas on a 10 proxy grim.

I'm also thinking of one Echoing Ruin in my sideboard as a wish target, I've seen a lot of chalices and against grim they will be set at 0 and 1 usually so i could wish for ruin then blow them up, and with shattering spree if there was one for 1 I'd end up spending RR to blow it up instead of R1 that it would be for ruin, and R1 is a lot easier to get then RR. it also has the ability for R1 to blow up one at 1 and at 0.

I'll report later on how the tournament goes. I've yet to have a good tournament showing but I'm also still a hardcore noob. but meh.

[Brianc608]

Try this:

//LAND
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Forbidden Orchard
1x Tolarian Academy

//MANA ACCELERATION
5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

//TUTORS
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Grim Tutor

//THE WORKS
4x Brainstorm
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Windfall
1x Mind's Desire
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Regrowth
1x Yawgmoth's Will

//PROTECTION
4x Duress
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Chain of Vapor

for my meta I've noticed i NEED hurkyl's recall, so i put one in along with the chains. they both also work as amazing storm builders as everyone knows.

Sounds like you are in a Stax heavy meta.  If that is the case, I would drop the Burning Wish.  It is just too bad of a card to have in your opening grip when you want to go crazy and win first turn against a deck that can't counter your threats.  I also think that two bounce spells are overkill.  IF you are facing a lot of Stax, simply switch the Chain of Vapor for a Hurkyl's Recall, and leave the bounce count at one.

the chromatic sphere is maybe for if i have a whole lot of colourless mana or blue mana i can make a black to win, and the fact if gives you a car helps with VT and MT. it might come out for sol ring though since i forgot about sol ring when i was making the deck.

DEFINITELY do that.  Sol ring is incredible reusable mana acceleration.

Try it out, you would be surprised what a difference a few small changes can make.  (i.e. The 2x Tendrils are a must with Consultation (even in a list including Burning Wish).) 

Cutting down proxies, I don't think I have lost speed or resilience.  Demonic Consultation is arguably better than Imperial Seal, and I'm arguing that it is.  Even if I did have an Imperial Seal sitting in my binder, I wouldn't use it over Consultation.

[Imsomniac101]

Consult is better than Seal, but it forces you to run 2x Tendrils which is suboptimal.

[Gabethebabe]

If you don´t have Grim Tutors and are scared to run Consult, you could try Tainted Pact or Infernal Tutor.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I refuse to rely soley on the 1 MD Tendrils to win, since there are players in my area that are in love with Extract.  It's for this reason I run Burning Wish, and it has gotten me out of some sticky situations.  As far as Wish targets go, I only run 2, Balance and Tendrils, and really only ever wish for Tendrils.  Post Board, I'll often side out Windfall and a Grim, so that in a scenario where I need to draw cards or find a specific card, I have access to either through Burning Wish.

[rureddy31]

I also run a Burning Wish in my main. But I find it is next to useless Game 2 and 3. It very often gets sided out.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I also run a Burning Wish in my main. But I find it is next to useless Game 2 and 3. It very often gets sided out.

Why would you side it out game 2 and 3, when your opponent is more likely to have hate?  It seems logical to me that it would be more useful game 2 in particular, especially if your opponent didn't see it game 1.  I dunno, I feel like having a second route to Tendrils is never dead.  Wish is one of the spells I very rarely side out.

[Brianc608]

Consult is better than Seal, but it forces you to run 2x Tendrils which is suboptimal.

Why do you call 2x Tendrils suboptimal?

It is typically bad to have in your opening grip, but while going off, it is almost never a bad card to draw into.  The ability to "mini-Tendrils" is nice.  The protection from extract is nice.  The protection from Necropotence on the table into opponent's Duress is nice.  Not being forced to choose Tendrils in a Necropotence stack is nice.  There is some reasoning behind 2x Tendrils other than the inclusion of Consultation (although Consultation was the biggest factor).

I'm assuming the main reason you called 2x Tendrils "suboptimal" is because Steven's list didn't run them.  Granted, Steven is an incredible deck builder, probably the best, but I don't think that is enough of a reason to call all deviations from his list "suboptimal".  If you want to call a card "suboptimal" please include some reasoning other than the implied "because Smmenen thinks it is".

[Implacable]

Consult is better than Seal, but it forces you to run 2x Tendrils which is suboptimal.

Why do you call 2x Tendrils suboptimal?

It is typically bad to have in your opening grip, but while going off, it is almost never a bad card to draw into.  The ability to "mini-Tendrils" is nice.  The protection from extract is nice.  The protection from Necropotence on the table into opponent's Duress is nice.  Not being forced to choose Tendrils in a Necropotence stack is nice.  There is some reasoning behind 2x Tendrils other than the inclusion of Consultation (although Consultation was the biggest factor).

I'm assuming the main reason you called 2x Tendrils "suboptimal" is because Steven's list didn't run them.  Granted, Steven is an incredible deck builder, probably the best, but I don't think that is enough of a reason to call all deviations from his list "suboptimal".  If you want to call a card "suboptimal" please include some reasoning other than the implied "because Smmenen thinks it is".

Well, I don't know about calling it 'suboptimal', but I'm just not sure that there's space in the deck for two copies of a card that doesn't 'do' anything (until you win with it, of course).  There are at least 50, and perhaps even 55, cards in GrimLong that cannot be changed.  That's just 'how it is'.  Those other five cards must be very powerful. By running Consultation and another Tendrils, you take two of those cards away from you.  Furthermore, by running Consult, you run the considerable risk of removing your most powerful spells.  Mind's Desire; YawgWin; Wheell; 'Twister: All of these are one-ofs that Consult could end up removing.  I think that the decklist is too tight and the costs of removing your cards too great to run Consult.

[rureddy31]

Consult isn't right in Long. It IS right in Meandeck Tendrills. Infact, it's perfect in that list, that's why Stephen runs 5 of them (1 Consult, 4 Spoils).

@Nightmare

The only hate that makes burning wish good is Extract. What hate from Stax, Slaver, Gifts, Oath, Goblins, etc... is going to be so bad that you need a Burning Wish for Tendrils. In my experience, Burning Wish was used for protection from extract. It probably doesn't have to be in the deck, and I will most likely remove it, but when it was, it was there for security reasons.

After Game 1, you know what you're playing. I'd rather have cards that actually do thing vs. the above metioned decks. The problem with B. Wish, and it's always been a problem in 90% of the decks it is in, is that unlike every other Tutor, it's a dead card most of the time. It's really only useful as you're about to win, and that rare opportunity when you fetch a Utitlity card (in Long's case, Balance).

The OLNY fear you can have is facing three duresses with Tendrils, Will and Twister in hand. THEN, Burning Wish would come in handy. Otherwise, it seems like a waste of a slot. In a deck that is SOOO tight, you need to maximize your space. Wish does not do that.

Still on the topic of Grim Long's build, what does everyone think of Regrowth. I'm personally not a fan of this card. It seems like it's not particularily useful 90% of the time, although Regrowth for Recall sounds like fun. Is this card a staple, or replacable? Thoughts...

[Mr. Nightmare]

@ Burning Wish -  I understand the arguments for running it, and those for not running it.  I run it.  Because I run it, I don't generally side it out.  If I did that often, I would just cut it for the 4th Duress again.  By the way, another situation you didn't mention, but that happened to me more than once, was having to pass the turn with Necro on the table, and getting Duressed.

@ Regrowth - I actually find myself siding it out when I know I'm less likely to want it (vs. Shops, for example), but it can be clutch in the control matchup.  It also lets you take infinite turns with Walk and Twister.  It's probably replaceable, but I think it's strong enough to keep.