You want Aggro? Bazaar Madness that'll woop.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I was thinking about writing about Madness, but I was FAR FAR too lazy. My friend convinced me since I decided that Rochester would be the last time I play the deck even though I was 3-1. I have decided to let you know about it, and reasons it is a worthy contender. I won a Mox with it about 6 or 7 months ago, won a pair of side events at SCG Richmond. I also feel that the power level is much higher then any other aggro deck in the format.

Here is the list:

Da Beatzorz:

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Roar Of The Wurm


Broken:
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Windfall
1x Wheel Of Fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Crop Rotation

Burnzorz:
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Fiery Temper

Trickz:
2x Anger
2x Wonder

Draw:
2x Deep Analysis
4x Bazaar Of Baghdad


Mana:
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
8x Solomoxencrypten
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Strip Mine
1x Riftstone Portal

SB:
4x Ray Of Revelation
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Chalice Of The Void
4x Artifact Mutation
1x Gilded Drake

Looks janky doesn't it? I modeled it off Ben Kowal's old list and constantly tinkered with it a bit. It certainly isn't a masterpiece but it has the speed to take down decks turn three undisrupted by either Wild Mongrel Draw 7 tricks or Flying Haste Colossus stuff. The deck has bad matchups but there are certainly reasons I would play this any day over Ichorid or Fish.

Why this over Ichorid?
It goldfishes at a few turns faster then Ichorid, and most importantly doesn't flop to hate. It trumps Fish like no tomorrow and has a pretty good match vs Slaver. Most sideboards won't bring in splash cards that they have for Ichorid that will molest Madness. The comfort of having a deck that won't die to hate in a 7+ round tournament is a pleasant thought. The only reason I can see Ichorid being a good choice over this is for Cabal Therapy, Therapy makes the Combo match ten times better and Oath a much easier match. But against nincompoop combo players Pyro Pillar teamed with an Arrogant Wurm will easily go the distance.

Why this over Fish?
Fish without drawing NullRod and FoW is 52 bad cards that any deck can sit around 6 or 7 turns on. Wild Mongrel and Arrogant Wurm won't leave will put your opponent scrambling to get that Tinker or in a hurry to see that Oath. You can just do so much more then Fish can. Blazing through the top 20 cards of the deck with a Bazaar to try and find Tinker, or a draw 7 to attempt to get out of a sticky situation are all extremely possible. The game plan can vary much more then the narrow plan of hope to draw Null Rod then avoid Darkblast. Plus this along with Ichorid has great game against Stax. Artifact Mutation is a beating and you can dump permanents out of your ass vs Stax.

Choosing between Madness and Ichorid is questionable and certainly up for debate. It is usually a metagame call. But fish is no where up to par. Many readers will think the following "This pile ain't got shit vs combo" Most metagames aren't dominated by combo and you should fear combo only piloted by the good players. The worse combo players will lose to a Pyro Pillar, hell I've even won a game vs a TPS player when he went down to three life off his Bargain and I fiery tempered him. No matter what deck you play, the good combo players are to fear.

What metagame to play this deck?

Waterbury, is perfect. Almost 25% of the decks are random aggro that you would stomp, quite some fish always there and Slaver. Leyline and Tormod's Crypt would be overly present to mess with the Ichorid idea. Slaver isn't the most difficult of matches thats for sure. It tends to be slower then Gifts which was a bad match because of the speed it possessed. Fish is a bye, literally.

Where not to play this deck?
 
A metagame full of competent Combo Players. They will play around Pyro Pillar and Chalice. And you don't have FoW sorry kids. A heavy Oath meta is tricky. Ray of Revelation helps so much. With Riftstone Portal in your yard it's much easier to nuke an Oath. I will admit first turn Oath's will take this deck down, but if they do not have the Oath in the opening hand, the control route is practically useless.

Tricks with the deck:
Don't ever walk into a Mana Drain. That's suicide. Wait for the Eot effects like brainstorm then Madness in your Arrogant Wurm. Also if you Bazaar on two mana and discard an Arrogant Wurm, you can play a land then madness him into play. These are a lot of tricks that people miss. Optimize the use of instant speed Madness. Chalice Of The Void can be set to 1 easily as well vs combo and Slaver. Basking Rootwalla is the only relevant one drop and that can be sacrificed for quality disruption.

Wrap up:
This is basically a viable aggro deck with a clock. The only reason I am going to set this aside is because I have another deck in mind to tinker with. Play with it a bit and you will see what aggro in Vintage should be more like. The disruption is more limited but you trade it with speed. You can nuke welders and just force your opponent to deal with your clock. Even Oath when it wins, it is always on life in the single digits. Give it a try, I'm sure those of you have seen me play it can agree on just how scary this deck can be.

[Kieranwolf]

Yes, lots of face-smashing and stuff, but where's the disruption?

Did you find yourself often able to race opposing TurboTinker plans with all those beats?

Also, I'm having a little bit of trouble figuring out why Twister is in here. Is it randomly good, or for something specific like nuking opposing Y. Will plans?

I'd love to go back to the JUST SMASH FACE game plan someday, I just don't think those Control decks are going to get any slower anytime soon.

[AngryPheldagrif]

So wait. . . it's an aggro deck whose sum total disruption is 3 Pyrostatic Pillars, has creatures on par with or smaller than Workshop Aggro, plays a 100% Wasteable manabase, only 1 Strip effect of your own, and your justification for why to play it over other aggro decks is that people won't be sideboarding against it?

Am I missing something? This seems downright horrible. At least UG Madness had counters and bounce spells and that kind of thing.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

So wait. . . it's an aggro deck whose sum total disruption is 3 Pyrostatic Pillars, has creatures on par with or smaller than Workshop Aggro, plays a 100% Wasteable manabase, only 1 Strip effect of your own, and your justification for why to play it over other aggro decks is that people won't be sideboarding against it?

Am I missing something? This seems downright horrible. At least UG Madness had counters and bounce spells and that kind of thing.

On Wasteland:
Funny how often I used to want to even cut Strip Mine. I used to play Wasteland and I felt it was too ineffective too often at disrupting my opponent. The 100% wasteable manabase is the least of worries, usually you drop a turn 1 mongrel or are bazaaring into rootwallas first turn, and if the feel like dropping a Wasteland on you, then by all means fall behind on tempo and don' t stop threats. The only time Wasteland is a serious threat is if it is paired up with Sphere Of Resistance.

Disruption of your own:
As Ben Kowal told me and I learned quickly when I built the deck, the speed of your creatures forces your opponent to deal now. A first turn Mongrel with Anger in hand will put your opponent on a turn 3 clock, remind you Fiery Temper is also a form of disruption vs Welders, and Pyro Pillar turns into at least 6-8 damage a game. I'm sure it seems skimpy to you because it lacks 4x Wasteland, 4x Chalice, 4x Null Rod. But very rarely did I wish I was dumping another two drop that was a Null Rod, or seeing a Chalice Of The Void that instead can be a phatty or a Draw 7.

Turbo Tinker:
If they have 7/10 and you walk into it and lose all of your lands, it's big trouble. I have raced a Colossus several times. If you seriously worry about Tinker, play either Artifact Mutation or Gilded Drake in the maindeck. Tournament wise I have been able to race it 2 out of three times, as long as it isn't coming down on turn 1 or turn 2. Also, you have a Colossus of your own with Anger and Wonder which can give you an edge over theirs.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

So wait. . . it's an aggro deck whose sum total disruption is 3 Pyrostatic Pillars, has creatures on par with or smaller than Workshop Aggro, plays a 100% Wasteable manabase, only 1 Strip effect of your own, and your justification for why to play it over other aggro decks is that people won't be sideboarding against it?

Am I missing something? This seems downright horrible. At least UG Madness had counters and bounce spells and that kind of thing.

Without saying that this deck is good or bad: I think you are looking at this from the wrong point of view.

This is not an aggro control deck like Fish or something like that. Its more a aggro combo deck like FCG. Disruption if needed  is in the Sideboard. So the focus of the deck is much more on winning fast than control your opponent and kill him slowly. Sure there are matchups you have to play a more contolish way but its not the primary goal.

[Hydra]

Interesting deck, although I'm a bit curious.  If you're already running Tinker, was Memory Jar tested in the deck?  It's perhaps the safest of the Draw 7s in terms of how much your opponent can do off the cards they see from it, and can put things like Yawgmoth's Will out of the way without your opponent ever getting a shot at using it.

[Sephiroth_FFVII]

Your Creatures are bigger than any other aggro/fish deck out there. Except for maybe a little help agaist oath, I cant see why wonder is needed in the deck...so you can fly over a colossus? I just feel those two slots can be used for something more effective. Otherwise, the deck looks really fun to play and I will tinker with it on MWS. 

[Kowal]

Interesting deck, although I'm a bit curious.  If you're already running Tinker, was Memory Jar tested in the deck?  It's perhaps the safest of the Draw 7s in terms of how much your opponent can do off the cards they see from it, and can put things like Yawgmoth's Will out of the way without your opponent ever getting a shot at using it.

Jar goes in and out when I play the deck.  Sometimes it's worth it, but usually when I cast Tinker I just get Colossus anyway.  It becomes a much better tinker target when it swings this turn and flies over your opponent's colossus.

Jar is usually included to hardcast it.  I tend to like Windfall better.

[AngryPheldagrif]

So wait. . . it's an aggro deck whose sum total disruption is 3 Pyrostatic Pillars, has creatures on par with or smaller than Workshop Aggro, plays a 100% Wasteable manabase, only 1 Strip effect of your own, and your justification for why to play it over other aggro decks is that people won't be sideboarding against it?

Am I missing something? This seems downright horrible. At least UG Madness had counters and bounce spells and that kind of thing.

Without saying that this deck is good or bad: I think you are looking at this from the wrong point of view.

This is not an aggro control deck like Fish or something like that. Its more a aggro combo deck like FCG. Disruption if needed  is in the Sideboard. So the focus of the deck is much more on winning fast than control your opponent and kill him slowly. Sure there are matchups you have to play a more contolish way but its not the primary goal.

So it's a deck like FCG except it doesn't have as much disruption, has about the same speed, doesn't actually have a combo win, and can't even be played budget? I'm still failing to see how this is supposed to be viable. I'm wondering why I would want to play this over, say, Gilded Claw which has plenty of aggro, plenty of combo, and ~15 pieces of disruption.

[Kowal]

Are you being serious?  I can't tell if you're just trolling or if you actually want a reply.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

So it's a deck like FCG except it doesn't have as much disruption, has about the same speed, doesn't actually have a combo win, and can't even be played budget? I'm still failing to see how this is supposed to be viable. I'm wondering why I would want to play this over, say, Gilded Claw which has plenty of aggro, plenty of combo, and ~15 pieces of disruption.

I also failed to mention, Workshop Aggro and FCG don't have a draw engine that is uncounterable and easy to get going, this deck has a fast clock. A more synergistic approach, a backup draw engine, an insane suprise factor, doesn't roll over and die to the hate people have in their boards for stax, won't die to Pyroclasm, and won't lose to Old Man Of The Sea and FoW won't be too hot against it.

I understand questioning but like Kowal said, are you serious?

[Juggernaut GO]

gilded claw sucks big fat donkey balls,  right up the seam.

/enter moderator phase

Actually, this just got me to fix the permissions so that they work the way they were supposed to. Such a confusing system.
-Jacob

[AngryPheldagrif]

Are you being serious?  I can't tell if you're just trolling or if you actually want a reply.

Very serious. Gilded Claw may be an out-of-date pile, but it still serves as a decent comparison piece.

I also failed to mention, Workshop Aggro and FCG don't have a draw engine that is uncounterable and easy to get going, this deck has a fast clock. A more synergistic approach, a backup draw engine, an insane suprise factor, doesn't roll over and die to the hate people have in their boards for stax, won't die to Pyroclasm, and won't lose to Old Man Of The Sea and FoW won't be too hot against it.

Uncounterable? Really? I don't really want to spend my time debating Gilded Claw or FCG versus this. You know why? Because both of those are admittedly outdated piles. Your 'why play this over X' lists 2 decks, neither of which made a single T8 slot in either day of Rochester. Here's a much better question: Why should we play this over Oath, Slaver, GrimLong, Stax, SS, IT, or Gifts?

[Purple Hat]

Here's a much better question: Why should we play this over Oath, Slaver, GrimLong, Stax, SS, IT, or Gifts?

cus you want to turn fat men sideways and don't like oath?  sometimes you go to tournaments to have fun and winning is kinda a bonus.  This deck in theory, I've done no testing, stands a chance against everything and is reasonably straightforward to play, in addition it lets you play a "pure" aggro deck.  so uh...cus you feel like it?

[AJFirst]

Oath doesn't turn fat men sideways, it pushes scadly dressed women forward.
-AJ

I figure I should say something on topic:

The reason I think this deck sucks is it is just underpowered. It flat out loses to any form of combo (even Gifts, which isn't even that fast anymore), and can be crushed by broken starts like turn one Tendrils win, turn 1-2 Tinker, turn 1 Oath, turn 1 3Sphere, turn 1-2 Chalice at 2. It is fine if left undisrupted, but even a timely FoW can be catastrophic, and again, that's not even talking about how this deck can't go broken (with the exception of a turn 2 DSC without disruption back-up), which is the real reason this deck would never be fully viable in a truly competitive metagame of seasoned players with well tested decks.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Here's a much better question: Why should we play this over Oath, Slaver, GrimLong, Stax, SS, IT, or Gifts?

cus you want to turn fat men sideways and don't like oath?  sometimes you go to tournaments to have fun and winning is kinda a bonus.  This deck in theory, I've done no testing, stands a chance against everything and is reasonably straightforward to play, in addition it lets you play a "pure" aggro deck.  so uh...cus you feel like it?

Fun decks belong in the casual forum. It's posted in Open as a 'viable deck' so I have little choice but to treat it as such. AJ basically hit the nail on the head on why this isn't very good. The fact is, the deck doesn't stand a chance against everything. It is a bye for combo and a bye for Oath. Izzetron has the capability to beat any T1 deck, heck, it's even pretty fun, but I sure as heck don't go around suggesting it in the Open forum.

[Purple Hat]

it went 3-1 through 4 rounds at SCG...while it may not be the best deck in the format it's a reasonable thing to play in alot of tournament fields (europe for example).  to me this makes it not a casual deck.  if you wouldn't play it then I suggest you uh....don't?

[AngryPheldagrif]

it went 3-1 through 4 rounds at SCG...while it may not be the best deck in the format it's a reasonable thing to play in alot of tournament fields (europe for example).  to me this makes it not a casual deck.

So did Gilded Claw.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Here's a much better question: Why should we play this over Oath, Slaver, GrimLong, Stax, SS, IT, or Gifts?

Because it has game against a majority of those decks, which Fish and Ichorid has. But this deck is better then Ichorid and Fish, so you do the math. People like playing competitive aggro. I won a mox with this, yes ok first time suprise factor understandable. A pair of Richmond side events, thats going 6-0 in swiss style tournament, not great not bad, I did scrub the main event at 2-2 drop oh well. Finally I 3-1 dropped at Rochester Day 2 because I didn't feel like playing anymore. I gave reasons why it is playable for certain. If you are a master with GrimLong by all means play that instead, it is the best deck in the format. Most GrimLong players wouldn't even look at this forum.

There are certain metagames I would take this deck to again, if its piled up with Stax, Fish type decks, some Slaver, and some Oath. I would gladly play this again.
Or hate metagames like I said Waterbury, where the popular archetypes tend to get hated out, I would play this again. Those are my reasons.

Jar goes in and out when I play the deck.  Sometimes it's worth it, but usually when I cast Tinker I just get Colossus anyway.  It becomes a much better tinker target when it swings this turn and flies over your opponent's colossus.

Jar is usually included to hardcast it.  I tend to like Windfall better.

There was a time I played both. Memory Jar can be so explosive. But too often the 5 Mana cost gets it dumped. But like in any deck, next main phase wins the game. Especially with Wild Mongrel out.

[Methuselahn]

Oh, I thought this deck died when LED got restricted.  Lion's Eye Diamond was an integral part to making this deck fast enough when Bombs over Baghdad and the like were actually taking tournaments.  You can add Draw7 bombs and other powerful spells, but nothing compares to the unique power that LED gave you.  I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how this deck is fast enough, especially after re-reading the original primer that my own teammates wrote on the deck.  The deck was well known and won tournments with 4 LED, now they are gone and so is most of it's explosiveness.

[Razvan]

Oh, I thought this deck died when LED got restricted.  Lion's Eye Diamond was an integral part to making this deck fast enough when Bombs over Baghdad and the like were actually taking tournaments.  You can add Draw7 bombs and other powerful spells, but nothing compares to the unique power that LED gave you.  I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how this deck is fast enough, especially after re-reading the original primer that my own teammates wrote on the deck.  The deck was well known and won tournments with 4 LED, now they are gone and so is most of it's explosiveness.

This is unfortunately true. This deck is fast, it's just not fast enough.

It beats fish, and it beats Slaver (well, it's Slaver, so it's always a drag, but in a long enough timeline, it has good game vs. it). It's good in certain metagames, where that's ALL there is (like Toronto sometimes). But it's bad against a varied field. And combo's always an issue if you don't get Pillar, and you might not even be able to cast that fast enough. Introducing FoW's or any sort of control beyond what red offers is probably necessary, but might completely derail the deck.

I disagree that it's a bye for Oath. Oath's vulnerable enough to this kind of strategy, especially if they get a bit more disruption or Drakes. In a long enough timeline, again, Oath will prevail (at least with THIS version). But not enough to call it a bye.

[klu]

it went 3-1 through 4 rounds at SCG...while it may not be the best deck in the format it's a reasonable thing to play in alot of tournament fields (europe for example).  to me this makes it not a casual deck.  if you wouldn't play it then I suggest you uh....don't?

What are you guys thinking European metagame is?  :shock:


In my oppinion, a deck loosing to any form of combo can't be a good deck ATM because combo is a lot present in our meta.
People now know how to play against aggro deck (hear ichorid) and now have some solutions like silent arbiter or echoing truth.
Another thing is that i really can't see in what way draw7s can be good when you do not run some disruption to stop all the broken thing you'll let your opponent do

I think the deck is able to beat any bad slaver player that goes to the welder path were any nowadays control player does not have to counter any threat of your deck to go goldfishing into yawgmoth's on turn 3. (i don't even say anything about draining a wurm )
You claim a good match against stax?
with a good 0 basic lands, who are you playing against???

[Purple Hat]

Lots of european metagames contain lots of aggro decks, if you're paired against other aggro with this you should win handily.

Your match is good vs stax cus you play a whole bunch of very cheap perminants that deal damage.

Circular logic could help with the combo match.

[Whatever Works]

How can this deck not be considered a competitive deck when you consider:

Favorable Matchups:
CS
Stax
Fish
Ichorid

Unfavorable:
Combo
Gifts (perhaps?)

Then the sideboard can also account for alot of the problems. This deck can give combo fits by playing agressive damage dealing cards that also act as forms of hate (Piller)... Then bringing in CoTV, etc. and most combo decks have some competition.

@AngryPheldegriff

If your going to bring in decks like "gilded claw" and FCG into the equation... when people argue explanations against said decks. I really hope you have a better arguement then "oh... the decks I listed were out of date I am still right!?!?"

About speed... without 4 LED the deck is a bit weaker, but the metagame is also MUCH slower then it was back then. Stax was less powerful, 4 gush GAT was legal (for a short time), Long.dec was around, more creature hate was played. So comparing deck speeds is really unfair.

Kyle L.

[kirdape3]

I would absolutely challenge the notion that this deck is better than Fish or Ichorid.  Fish is the most disruptive current deck in the format - the only one that's really capable of slowing the game down such that their smaller creatures are a fast enough clock to close the game.  Ichorid's full potential has not yet been reached, and even then I would want to play Ichorid over Madness as it relies on a more degenerate mechanic.  This deck has no ability to defend itself, so it's just comparing goldfish speeds with decks that have more firepower than your own.  That seems like a race that you're only going to win if your opponent is incompetent or has an inferior deck.

[Toad]

Lots of european metagames contain lots of aggro decks

Uh?  :shock:

[AngryPheldagrif]

@AngryPheldegriff

If your going to bring in decks like "gilded claw" and FCG into the equation... when people argue explanations against said decks. I really hope you have a better arguement then "oh... the decks I listed were out of date I am still right!?!?"

The point is that if this deck can't be conclusively proven better than some out-of-date shipwrecks, why should we even bother talking about this?

[Dante]

@AngryPheldegriff

If your going to bring in decks like "gilded claw" and FCG into the equation... when people argue explanations against said decks. I really hope you have a better arguement then "oh... the decks I listed were out of date I am still right!?!?"

The point is that if this deck can't be conclusively proven better than some out-of-date shipwrecks, why should we even bother talking about this?

No one is forcing you to discuss this deck.  You seem to keep posting in it out of your own free will.  If you don't like doing it, then stop.  Sort of like patient says, "doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the doctor says, "well don't do that".

Now the deck won several SCG side tournaments and a Mox, as well as showing 3-1 day 2 Rochester before dropping out.  Does that necessarily make it a top choice to play?  No.  Does it mean it's worthy of being discussed further?  Yes.  If anyone doesn't want to "waste their time", then ignore this thread.

You people are like squabbling fucking toddlers sometimes.

Dante

[Purple Hat]

Quote from: Purple Hat on Today at 11:14:24 AM
Lots of european metagames contain lots of aggro decks

Uh?  Shocked

that's certainly the impression I get from reading posts from some of the euro players. it seems to me that they frequently mention needing creature removal in their MD's in order to deal with the aggro decks they face.  perhaps I'm mistaken.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Also if anyone is considering playing this at Waterbury, out of the top 75 placing decks, 27 of them were aggro. That's already a third of the upper tables that you would stomp the hell out of. There was also plenty of stax last Waterbury as well so its just an idea. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Gifts was a hard match, but now its much less played which makes things a little smoother.