Does Grim Long lose to Leyline?

[Smmenen]

The answer is: it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
Consider: that Rich Shay lost games 1 and 3 to me without getting a turn at Richmond.  He wanted a weapon that would at least give him a turn.

Leyline slows grim long down by a turn - so it is harder to win on the first turn. 

[Mr. Type 4]

Yes, the best thing about Leyline is that it has potential to prevent many turn 1 wins.  You'd be surprised how many times you can turn 1 win right through a Force of Will and just not even care, so if your plan is to mulligan looking for an answer, you'd be better served looking for the Leyline than the Force of Will.  Of course you have to weigh how important it is for you to block turn 1 wins, because only the very best long players get them with any amount of frequency. 

What beats Grim Long?  That is a loaded question, because in a sense, there are really no perfect silver bullets to beat Grim Long.  You're probably better served to not even try to break up the strategy too much and just go for what makes you win faster.  Go get your Ancesrtral and draw a bunch of counters, that makes me cringe inside, especially because my brain has to go through all the possible permutations of three cards you could have drawn.  Dave is right when he says that a single answer card isn't enough, if you want to go that route, you need a combination of answers. 

Blood Moon - I beat Blood Moon.  There are a lot of problems with cards that cost 3 mana, in that they may not be able to get down reliably when they matter most.  Do you think I care about blood moon when I've had time to develop moxen?  Blood Moon is stronger when paired with Shaman, but then we're talking about playing two cards, one with cmc = 3 and my deck is trying to go off on turns 1-3, and it cuts off your ability to cast Drain.  There are decks that would probably want to run Blood Moon as a sideboard card AGAINST Slaver, because it would be fairly effective.  That why Chalice is good, it costs 0, and Leyline also can cost 0, which is a pretty serious benefit that shouldn't be overlooked.  I would only play Leyline if I planned on backing it up with some other sideboard card, or if I already had some lock components in the main. 

[arcanis2000]

Speaking with tin_mox(Dave) today, he reassured me that leyline was total utter garbage against grim long, and I agree.  The deck is truley unbeatable unless piloted be an incompetent player.  Or you just get the jankiest hand ever.

~MR. 2000~

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, the term "unbeatable" may be a bit overzealous, but yeah, Leyline alone is useless against Grim Long unless you're just looking for one turn. As many folks have mentioned here, you need a combination of efficient hate to survive. The absolute best measure to help you win versus Grim Long is to try to shake your opponent's confidence. The deck has such complex decision trees that the slightest distraction can spell disaster. Forget the hate cards that only serve as an annoyance more often than not. You're wasting your time there. Your deck can't beat Grim Long, but their deck sure can. 

[LordHomerCat]

Most of the games I lost were when my opponent could stall me a turn or two, and then just win or lock me out (STAX) really fast so I couldn't try again.  Leyline and Tormod's are just stalling, the best way to beat the deck is stall with your drains and forces, then resolve Gifts Ungiven and just win.  Winning first is much better than trying to lock Grim out with your slaver deck.

[Guli]

As a Control player that utilises creatures (aggro) to help out the gameplan i think i have a good chance stopping grim long. However without a force and they going off turn 1 there isn't much any deck can do. the aggro/control player has several little disruptions like Force/Stifle/wasteland/Meddling Mage and side in chalice/Orim's chant/Leyline of the void(or planar void,tornocrypto).

I believe being able to play a Tundra and holding Stifle/Orim/Force should give the combo player a hard time to finish the game.

[Tin_Mox5831]

If I were really trying to build a deck to beat Grim Long with hate cards, I'd go insane. You have to cover so many bases in order to strengthen your game. Force Of Will and Leyline Of The Void are both strong choices, as they can both be of use to you before you get a turn. After that, Chalice Of The Void is probably the next card in line. The better idea, however, is to try to mentally overload your opponent. Paul touched on this earlier, and he's dead on as he often is. The best thing you can do is draw cards and tutor for cards. This makes me greatly increase the range of options in my decision process. Instead of one or two variables (Or perhaps none, via Duress or Xantid Swarm), I have several unknowns to account for.

Let's put it this way, playing Grim Long is very analogous to solving Algebraic equations. Even if there are several variables, as long as a significant portion of the information is defined, I can solve the equation (i.e. Figure out the optimal play). If the ratio of known information to unknown information shifts too much, I'm left grasping at straws with a sketchy gameplan at best.

For instance:

If I know via scouting or w/e that the opponent is playing Stax and I'm on the play the equation is really just basic addition with no unknowns.

If the opponent's deck is unknown, I may Duress Turn 1 in hopes of winning uncontested Turn 2 or 3. This is reminiscent of an equation with a single defined variable. Find the value of the variable and you solve the problem.

If the opponent's deck is unknown and they draw multiple cards, the decision tree becomes quite complex. An appropriate illustration would be an equation with multiple undefined variables. The variables in this case are often dependent on one another. To solve these problems, you have to first find the proper range of values, then narrow your efforts progressively.

Hopefully that illustrates the point a bit more clearly.

Later,
Dave

[raiL]

Like someone said earlier, Leyline alone wont do it. But if you add in cards such as Chalice for 0, it would make it almost impossible for grimlong to win fast enough  before you win/solidify your board&hand. They wont have access to Ritual will mana and artifact mana. Thats why i believe Smen's new Ichorid is so strong against grim long. And those are just maindeck hate for combo.

[Kieranwolf]

Actually, it depends on what bounce spells are in the side or the maindeck.

Generally, I go for Leyline, Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 2, Chalice @ 3 for permanent hate (in that order). Chalice @ 0 is still necessary, because they can still Tendrils for the kill with their jewels if you're at low life, but it doesn't shut off enough cards to secure a win. Oh yeah, and Null Rod might help too.

If you don't have all of those, you can cast lots of Duresses/Cabal Therapies and/or Fow to try and slow them downs. The problem is that they're going to find an answer to Chalice if you don't have them set @ 1, 2, and 3. Chain, Hurkyl's and Rebuild are all possible answers to Chalice, and Leyline only shuts off two cards.

On top of a healthy smattering of the above hate, you need a fast clock unless you have all four chalice out. Or you need the GrimLong player to draw like a scrub the whole first game.

Second game, of course, you also need to be able to deal with a Colossus on the table around turn 1 or so (or a Tinker on the stack) with possible FoW backup.

Ichorid can get manas, of course, but Chalice @ 2 and above might be difficult, and without it Hurkyl's or Rebuild give the GrimLong player the turn they need to win. Ichorid has a fast clock, though, so with Chalice @ 0 and @ 1 on the table, it should have a chance.