[Premium Article] SCG P9 Rochester Report *Top 4* Grim Long

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12134.html

Stephen took the powerful Grim Long deck to the SCG Power 9 events in Rochester, and came away with a Sunday Top 8 performance. His report examines the strengths and weaknesses of both his deck and his playskill over the two days, and shares a massive amount of matchup and scenario data. In July, the next SCG Power 9 events are being held at Heroes Con in Charlotte, NC... is Grim Long the deck for you?

Read my detailed PWNING of Rich Shay

[rureddy31]

You've made me a believer, thats for sure. I am sick and tired of timing out with Control Slaver.

[TimeWizzle]

Steve, I noticed that you ran a MD Hurkyl's on Sat. but not on Sun., replacing it with a chain of vapor.  What was the reason for this change?  Doesn't that dramatically increase the damage done by a chalice for 1? 
Have you run into any problems where you wished an underground sea was the 4th gemstone mine?

[rureddy31]

How many people actually run MD Chalice ATM?

[Moxlotus]

How many people actually run MD Chalice ATM?

Oath and a lot of decks with Workshops.  A number of Slaver decks ran them in the board.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I chose Chain over Hurkyl's mostly due to it handling issues Hurkyl's does not, specifically Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab and Blood Moon, while still acting as a Storm/Mana generator.

[rureddy31]

Depending on what you expect in the metagame, you could always take out the Time Walk to add in the Chain or Hurkyl (which ever didn't make the cut). I asked Stephen about why he runs Time Walk, and this is the answer he gave me:

"Because you can just go Mox, Land, Time Walk, Win."

He did eventually give me a serious and realistc answer, but running Time Walk in case you don't go off seems counter intuitive. Grim Long is the most aggressive combo deck in this current format. Running an extra storm generator + helpful utility seems a lot better to me. Although, Stephen is the master with the deck. I'll let him address this question personally, if he would be so kind.

[TimeWizzle]

I certainly see the value of chain of vapor, I didn't mean to question its inclusion.  I was more referring to the relative ease of someone dropping chalice=0 and chalice=1 and you have no real outs short of casting both cabals with threshold to build mana/storm (slight exaggeration, i know).  But in any event, in my build i run 2 out of 3 of: chain, hurkyl's, and/or rebuild to minimize my exposure to chalices.  I also realize that it may depend at least in part to the expected meta.

[rureddy31]

Rebuild is just too expensive. If you look at the spells you are paying 3 for, you are either getting 7 cards, access to a broken graveyard, or any card you want in your deck. Bouncing your own artifacts, or just your opponents is ALMOST always enough. Grim rarely has trouble building up Storm.

[LordHomerCat]

Chain vs. Hurkyl's was a heated debate (Paul ran chain on Saturday over Hurkyl's as well, which caused me to pull the trigger on that same chance).  Chain seemed stronger in this metagame, with so few workshops and so few chalices at all (past the first round or two, after all the oath decks had lost).  Chain dealt with the random meddling mages and true believers, among other issues.  I personally used it to win multiple games by building storm and/or mana IN ADDITION to bouncing the problem card, and if i recall, Steve used it to help him resolve Bargain against none other than Rich Shay (perhaps he can relate the whole story).  For that meta, Chain was really really good.

[rureddy31]

Seeing as it looks like Stax is becoming worse and worse, I think Chain will become the staple MD bounce. It is SOOOO versatile!!!

[Smmenen]

You've made me a believer, thats for sure. I am sick and tired of timing out with Control Slaver.

Haha!   

I like your spirit, but you may be dissapointed to discover how frequently you'll go to time with Grim Long.  Almost all of my matches went to time in Rochester. 

Steve, I noticed that you ran a MD Hurkyl's on Sat. but not on Sun., replacing it with a chain of vapor.  What was the reason for this change?  Doesn't that dramatically increase the damage done by a chalice for 1? 
Have you run into any problems where you wished an underground sea was the 4th gemstone mine?

Paul Mastriano and LordHomerCat convinced me that Chain was better.  I felt more comfortable with Hurkyl's, particularly since I had been running that same maindeck for six months.  But they persuaded me that it was just better in this metagame (chain) and they were right.  It ensured my game one win against Rich Shay.

NEVER EVER EVER Wished Sea was Gemstone Mine.

I'm convinced that a huge reason people don't like Grim Long is cause they incorrectly build the deck with 4 Gemstones.

How many people actually run MD Chalice ATM?

Oath and a lot of decks with Workshops.  A number of Slaver decks ran them in the board.

Yeah, and I pwned every single Oath deck.  Read my report.  I beat Oath with multiple Fows and Rods and Chalices. 

For example, I beat this guy:  http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17582

I also beat most of my Shop matches and should have won every single one if i wasn't such a poor player. 

I chose Chain over Hurkyl's mostly due to it handling issues Hurkyl's does not, specifically Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab and Blood Moon, while still acting as a Storm/Mana generator.

Exactly, Chain of Vapor is like Hurkyl's recall on your opponent but also on yourself too - it's Rebuild at 1 mana. 

Depending on what you expect in the metagame, you could always take out the Time Walk to add in the Chain or Hurkyl (which ever didn't make the cut). I asked Stephen about why he runs Time Walk, and this is the answer he gave me:

"Because you can just go Mox, Land, Time Walk, Win."

He did eventually give me a serious and realistc answer, but running Time Walk in case you don't go off seems counter intuitive. Grim Long is the most aggressive combo deck in this current format. Running an extra storm generator + helpful utility seems a lot better to me. Although, Stephen is the master with the deck. I'll let him address this question personally, if he would be so kind.

Go read my match against Rich Shay.  Seriously.  Do i still need to explain?  The additional draw, land drop, its totally insane for the price.  It's like a mox on crack.  I use it not only to power out the early game, but also to untap after a draw7 - or tutor target after a draw7.  I also use it in conjunction with Necro and Bargain ALL day.  Its stupid with both cards. 

[Mr. Nightmare]

I'm glad to hear you agree Stephen.  Although now that I read the article, I must admit to being slightly offended at being the only person you played against all weekend to remain nameless.

Edit - @ below - All's well that ends well.  And Burning Wish FTW, especially since the cat is out of the bag on this deck.

[Smmenen]

Heh, I knew you were mr. nightmare, but I couldn't remember your name - I know it now

BTW, I want to make sure everyone knows: Grim Long must contuously adapt like every other deck.  I think that running Burning Wish is looking better and better as decks try to run Extract.   That is just one example of a direction you may want ot take.  At the least, you'll want access to a second post board. 

[rureddy31]

What do you take out for the Wish? Regrowth?

[Smmenen]

What do you take out for the Wish? Regrowth?

I do not know.  I am probably a bad person to ask about - I was realy hesitant to make the correct change from Hurkyl's to Chain of Vapor.  I played with a particular list for so long based upon my understanding, that it is very hard for me to make mainboard changes.   I am not sure that I'd even make a mainboard change unless I expected a high threshold of players to run maindeck cards like Extract or Hide/Seek.

[Mr. Nightmare]

To fit Wish, I moved the Time Walk to the Sideboard, which may not have been the best call.  You definately need to rework the board a bit to fit in a Wishboard, but the only two cards I wished for all day were Tendrils and a sided-out Wheel of Fortune.  I think having a draw-7 in the board is a great thing to have.

[Smmenen]

Someone suggested cutting one Duress.  That sounds quite reasonable.

[rureddy31]

Well, here is my SB. My MD is card for card from Menedian's Day 2. The only change is -1 Regrowth, +1 Burning Wish.

Sideboard
4x Force of Will
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Chain of Vapour
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Balance
1x Regrowth
1x Tendrils of Agony

In the small amount of testing I have done, I absolutely LOVE Time Walk. Menedian was right for sure, it is AMAZING!!!!

I'd appreciate some constructive criticism. The one card in the MD that I have come to absolutely hate is Spirit Guide.

[AJFirst]

That's what I said in the Grim Long official deck thread and got yelled at for saying that I didn't bring the deck to tournements and only playtested it for fun with friends. The answer was that it's good against Stax, basically.
-AJ

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, it's not that simple. ESG also helps to fuel the ever-busted Regrowth quite often as well as helping to circumvent CotV on occasion. But yeah, it is the nut high versus Stax. They almost never cast CotV @ 2, which often proves to be their undoing via Regrowth and Hurkyl's Recalls, a play which is often impossible if it were not for ESGs.

@ AJFirst: I apologize for the group if you were offended. Basically, this deck is built around the premise of competitive play, hence it's complex decision trees. I am simply of the personal opinion that casual Magic should be light and enjoyable. I know that when I play GrimLong, I am a miserable person in some respects. I don't get to take in the great atmosphere of a big tourney because I don't have that luxury, whereas the random aggro player across the table is having a ball but may not do as well due to lack of focus. It's a clear instance of give and take. If you can play GrimLong just for kicks and still do well while enjoying the game, kudos.

Later,
Dave

[Gabethebabe]

I play City of Brass: Ritual, Duress. He Force of Wills my Duress, pitching Force of Will. I think the way is clear to go off. I play Grim Tutor and sacrifice my Lion's Eye Diamond. He plays Force of Will #3. I burn for six.

What would you have tutored for? if your opponents puts on his "I´ve lost this game, face" are you going to get Will? It´s likely isn´t it? The alternative is to Desire for 6, but if you think that you´re going to win, why not will? Afetr all, Desire can fizzle.

If he waits for you to find Will and counters that, you have just spent a VERY important resource in your deck.

[Purple Hat]

I play City of Brass: Ritual, Duress. He Force of Wills my Duress, pitching Force of Will. I think the way is clear to go off. I play Grim Tutor and sacrifice my Lion's Eye Diamond. He plays Force of Will #3. I burn for six.

What would you have tutored for? if your opponents puts on his "I´ve lost this game, face" are you going to get Will? It´s likely isn´t it? The alternative is to Desire for 6, but if you think that you´re going to win, why not will? Afetr all, Desire can fizzle.

If he waits for you to find Will and counters that, you have just spent a VERY important resource in your deck.

I feel like you have to get desire here if he lets to tutor resolve....he basically just announced that he was holding force+blue card in his remaining 5 cards. I assume this play was actually cob: ritual, duress-->force, ritual, crypt, led, tutor, crack led-->force, so isn't it desire for 8 if the tutor resolves anyway?

[Smmenen]

or protecting ancestral. 

[ashiXIII]

To fit Wish, I moved the Time Walk to the Sideboard, which may not have been the best call.  You definately need to rework the board a bit to fit in a Wishboard, but the only two cards I wished for all day were Tendrils and a sided-out Wheel of Fortune.  I think having a draw-7 in the board is a great thing to have.

How about moving the Windfall to the sideboard for it?

[Komatteru]

To fit Wish, I moved the Time Walk to the Sideboard, which may not have been the best call.  You definately need to rework the board a bit to fit in a Wishboard, but the only two cards I wished for all day were Tendrils and a sided-out Wheel of Fortune.  I think having a draw-7 in the board is a great thing to have.

How about moving the Windfall to the sideboard for it?

Ooh, now we're getting to JD.tech from DeathLong from over a year ago. Vintage innovation at its finest. 

[Mr. Nightmare]

To fit Wish, I moved the Time Walk to the Sideboard, which may not have been the best call.  You definately need to rework the board a bit to fit in a Wishboard, but the only two cards I wished for all day were Tendrils and a sided-out Wheel of Fortune.  I think having a draw-7 in the board is a great thing to have.

How about moving the Windfall to the sideboard for it?

Ooh, now we're getting to JD.tech from DeathLong from over a year ago. Vintage innovation at its finest.

JD, I wasn't playing Vintage a year ago, honestly, so I wouldn't know:P.  I've since cut the 4th Duress for Wish, and in boarding often side out Windfall to Wish for.  I still want it maindeck, but it does get sided out when necessary.  Other unconventional cards I side out include Grim Tutor #3 and Regrowth.  Not that it means much, but Wish does make sideboarding a whole lot easier and more comfortable.

[EnialisLiadon]

I'd recommend cutting Time Walk.  I cut it from my 2c Long list for quite some time, but ended up having to put it back in for lack of other cards I liked.

Amen.  I hate Walk in storm combo.  If you really want it, I just put it in the sideboard for Burning Wish and DSC purposes and if you want game 2/3 for some reason.

[Smmenen]

I'm going to say it again: the fact that Time Walk interrupts storm is irrellevant.  Utterly and totally irrellevant.  If that is the reason you are cutting it, that is foolish.

[rureddy31]

I was originally among those that thought walk was bad in Grim Long. That card is AMAZING in long. When Walk is in your hand, you play differently of course, and you usually win. Storm is EXTREMELY easy to achieve in Grim Long. Walk is crucial. What are everyone's thoughts on Regrowth. I am not a big fan of the card... I have it in my board as a Wish target. Burning Wish has won me nearly half a dozen games where Regrowth wouldn't have helped much.