Memory Jar and Fact or Fiction in Control Slaver

[seer]

I've been testing out Memory Jar in Control Slaver and I have been having trouble figuring out if we really need it or not.

Some pluses to memory jar, is that it doubles as a pseudo win condition with a Tormod's Crypt (draw cards, discard cards, crypt your opponent's graveyard). Also, I can see a situation where you might want to tinker for it, if you had mystical and tinker in hand, tinker out the jar, mystical for will -> win.

The best thing about jar, imo, is it is the easiest fat artifact to cast. Drain something for 2/3 on turn2, easily hardcast jar on turn3.

However, I'm not quite sure if jar is necessary. I haven't really seen many situations outside the one I listed above where I would want to tinker it out. For, instance, in a standoff control mirror, I guess tinkering out jar is pretty good, but if you just pop the jar and hit a lot of counters/bounce or something it really isn't that strong since you are discarding it all EOT (unless you hit a brainstorm, I guess you can stack the top of your deck in that case).

I was hoping that maybe Kowal and Shay could give us some input on why they think it is running and some of the actual game situations where it has been THE card to go for. So, anyone have some thoughts on this?

[Kowal]

When you blindly Tinker, getting Memory Jar is both faster and more reliable than DSC as a win condition.  Even if all you get off it is a land drop and a welder, that welder will be bringing it back.

It's not a draw7.  It's a draw15.  It's Bargain, but cheaper and weldable.

[AJFirst]

It's really good for the Burning Wish kill, and can give you a leg up on mana early in the control match-up, or draw you into the win late game against something like Stax or Fish. I think the seasoned pros could come up with better game states where it would be good than I can though, so I'll leave that to them as I too am interested to see what they have to say.
-AJ

P.S. I do play Slaver, and have tested the Jar, and the other thing that's really good about it is if you play Repeal, then you can do stuff like Jar, Repeal your Welder and make you discard it. Nutz.

[Kowal]

Burning Wish kill is pretty irrelevant since the deck in question doesn't run it.

Same goes for Repeal.

Memory Jar is always good.  The only times I don't get it when I cast Tinker are when I'm positive a slaver activation will win (I have four artifacts, welder, and will in my hand perhaps) or if I'm playing against budgety type aggro (where DSC is usually the better pull).  Given Peter's performance with Dragon this past weekend, I probably also wouldn't get jar against him since he can go off with Necromancy during the Jar turn.

Given that it's also easily hardcast, it's also a card I don't mind seeing in my opening hand.  If I find Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, or Academy, it's not even unreasonable as a turn two play.  Generally though, it's something I cast when I've bled my opponent of counters and instead of something like Skeletal Scrying that will draw 4 cards and maybe win, it gives me a position where my welders are suddenly game-ending, and lets me see 7 cards right away.

[LotusHead]

Memory Jar is always awesome with an active welder, as is Control Slaver in general.

With 2 Welders, you can soon deck your opponent (unless they scoop first)

And it's a Draw 7 for you and a "Draw 7 for now" for opponent who may or may not have anything they can do with a temporary set of 7 cards.

I think the inclusion of Memory Jar in Control Slaver is the fact that much of the deck is set, and the rest of the deck is metagame choices (which is why some people say 3 welders, or godforbid 2 welders is plenty.).

Plus, putting X number of artifacts into your graveyard is good, that's why Slaver runs Thirst for Knowledge.  This is sorta kinda like a potentially Weldable Thirst for Knowledge.

Lastly, vs Dragon, I could have decked a Dragon Player with Memory Jar via Welding when he was going off with it, but I scrubbed and didn't see the correct play. (By decked, I mean drew the game for both of us. Laquatus was in last 5 or so cards.)

[zeus-online]

Anyone ever welded in and activated jar in response to a spell being played? To find a counter?

Also, hitting bounce aint that bad with jar...afterall, your opponent WILL have to discard what you just bounced...

Still not sure if it belongs, it seems like control decks in general wont have that much to do with jar....counters and other draw spells is more or less a wasted during a jar turn.

/Zeus

[AJFirst]

How do you deck your oponent with it? I'm not retarded or anything, obviously you get them to draw until they can't anymore, but wouldn't you die first (unless it's Ichorid) because you draw infinitly more cards than any other deck in the format?

I like Jar, I just don't think it's all THAT great. Maybe I just don't know how to play with it yet, but I havn't really had a match-up or a game state where I've been thinking to myself "Man, I could really use a Memory Jar right now...". When I tinker, I want to either win with an 11/11 trampler, or take their turn and put them into such a god-awful board position that they can't win the game. That's just my thought, but I'm definitly continuing testing it. Maybe I'll figure it out sooner or later.
-AJ

[Methuselahn]

A lot of us have cut Fact or Fiction for Memory Jar.  Memory Jar is so much more broken.  Basically, a one sided Draw 7 is better than letting your opponent split a pile of 5.

There’s much talk of Tinkering out jar, but it’s so much easier to just dump it with Thirst and Welding it, if not just hard casting it.  5 mana is a great casting cost and not unwieldy like Trike.  Jar makes Welders better.  Obviously the more robots you have, the stronger Welders become.  Jar makes Brainstorm even better.  You get a virtual shuffle effect before you crack the Jar.  When you see a Brainstorm in a Jar you essentially get to put your two best cards on top of your library.  A perfect way to set up Will or any number of other amazing tricks.

Jar really is where it’s at.

[Mantis]

Memory Jar in Control Slaver how fucking savage! Instead of FoF which was in my opinion the worst card in Slaver. Memory Jar is better than FoF in almost every way. It can be pitched to TfK, it's a really good Tinker target and hardcasting it is not that hard. In short, it's useful in early game where you can pitch it to TfK and then later in the game you can Weld it, Tinker for it or hardcast it to just win you the game. I really like this inclusion good job guys!

[CrashTest]

I am going to test Memory Jar in Slaver as well.

         Do you guys feel that Merchant Scroll, FoF, and Gifts is not necessary in Slaver, especially if it is running Night's Whisper?

[Vegeta2711]

I am going to test Memory Jar in Slaver as well.

         Do you guys feel that Merchant Scroll, FoF, and Gifts is not necessary in Slaver, especially if it is running Night's Whisper?

Gifts isn't that great in Slaver, you rather have FoF the vast majority of the time. And instead of FoF, we rather run a card that draws us 7 cards and is pretty much GG whenever it gets going.

Shay still loves his Merchant Scroll, because it's fetching Ancestral pretty much all the time. Personally I fucking hate it, but then again Shay doesn't run Vamp and I do, so it balances out.  :lol:

[Marek]

Hey everybody!  It's my first post so go easy on me 

Well anyway, I've been playing a much less conventional build of slaver myself, that is more control heavy then your tipical control slaver build.  I use the disruption quite similar to Smmendian's Gifts build, and have included duress (only 2 MD though).  I have found that both memory jar AND FoF are the nuts, and have been running both.  I just started running jar the other day and like everyone has been saying it is encredible.  I don't feel like cutting FoF is really wise because feeding drain mana into a FoF is rarely bad to say the least.  FoF generally nets you atleast 1 card you need, and many times more.  Also, why not run both? They are both solid drawers, but if I HAD to choose one over the other I'd go with jar myself.  Also, on the whole merchant scroll issue, i think that running 1 scroll is nice because its going to get you one of the following things:  Ancestral recall, Force of Will, Mystical Tutor, or Mana Drain, ...probably in that order of what i pull the most respectively.

Sorry if i was too vague with anything, im half asleep, ive been up till 3ish every night for the last week, 

-->Marek

[Mantis]

Why not run both? To smooth out the mana curve. You don't want to get stuck with too many high CC spells in your opening hand. This means your opponent is casting spells while you are not building up and this will leave you unable to protect your higher CC bombs in the end. Without a proper setup in early game your bombs will likely not even resolve. Whilst adding one FoF would probably not make the difference and you might not notice it, people look for the optimal build with the optimal curve.

Aside that, I've never really found FoF really that gamebreaking, it was mostly a win more card for me while I just see Jar as 5 mana costing Door to Nothingness.

[Kowal]

Aside that, I've never really found FoF really that gamebreaking, it was mostly a win more card for me while I just see Jar as 5 mana costing Door to Nothingness.

FoF is garbage.  If it were unrestricted tomorrow I still wouldn't run any of them.  It costs a lot and has a piddly effect on the game for what you have to pay to use it.  This is extra important in Slaver since your curve is already so high--  you really need cheaper spells to not suck.

As far as your comment on Jar, I'm not sure if you're criticizing it or not--  If you are, keep in mind it's a 5 cost door to nothingness with no activation cost, which is pretty good in a format where people get ridiculed for not running Bargain.

[Smmenen]

I completely disagree.  Fact is utterly busted in Slaver.  If it were unrestricted, *I* would play Control SLaver with 4. 

Fact is an utter bomb in the control mirror and it has insane synegry with Goblin Welder.   Night's Whisper is garbage compared to FoF.   I have been using Night's Whisper in my vintage decks since the card was printed (see Meandeck Tendrils).  Whisper requires a black source - which makes you vulnerable to wasteland if you find a Sea.  The deck already has enough mana base strain in the need for red for Welder. 

Slaver has the best Facts in the game right now.  Not running it AND jar is folly. 

[The Atog Lord]

I don't think that any Control Slaver deck excluding Memory Jar is properly built. As a spell on its own, Memory Jar is a card which draws more draw than its mana cost, quite a rare thing in the game. Combined with Goblin Welder, Memory Jar becomes absurd.

Here are some fun Jar tricks:

Remember that Tormod's Crypt makes Jar more safe because hitting the opponent's graveyard can undo some of the potential harm caused by Jar.

Remember that with multiple jarrings, you choose the order in which the old hands are returned, so you decide which hand you both keep after the turn -- either you both keep the original or both keep the first Jar hand if you've jared twice on one turn, for example.

Remember that if you get a Mindslaver in your Jar hand, you can go to endstep, discard, and return Mindslaver and slave the opponent before his turn.

Remember that Brainstorm becomes a neat mini-Vamp tutor in conjunction with Memory Jar.

Remember that you can go to you opponent's endstep and pop Jar. Hands won't revert until your next endstep -- just beware of the opponent casting Final Fortune!

[seer]

Remember that with multiple jarrings, you choose the order in which the old hands are returned, so you decide which hand you both keep after the turn -- either you both keep the original or both keep the first Jar hand if you've jared twice on one turn, for example.

I'm trying to understand how this works.

So let's say you start with hand A, Jar into hand B, then Jar again into hand C. You then go to your end step. You stack discarding your hand A to get back B, and then stack discarding your hand C to get back A. So you would first discard C, get back A, then discard A to get back B?

I'm a little confused at how you designate which hand is being "brought back" when you stack the abilities.

[seer]

Well I searched SCG and found the reasoning from Sheldon:


Q: This question is strictly about casual play, as Memory Jar is either restricted or banned in every format. What do you do if you play and activate two Memory Jars on the same turn? You activate the first, and let's say you draw into a second one, which you can cast and activate. So now you have two separate hands face down on the table, and a new hand of seven cards. At the end of the turn, which cards are discarded and which stay with you?

Thanks for taking the time,
Andy

A: Andy

You'd stack the end of turn triggers from the Jars in whichever order you choose. You'd then resolve them in order. Your hand would consist of whatever cards were removed with the Jar's trigger that you put on the stack first. It breaks down like this.

Stack Jar A.
Stack Jar B.
Discard hand, return cards removed with Jar B. (Active player gets priority).
Discard hand, return cards removed with Jar A.

Sheldon

[Kowal]

Fact is an utter bomb in the control mirror and it has insane synegry with Goblin Welder.

In the control mirror, I'd rather resolve Gifts and guarantee myself two absolutely retarded cards.

With active Goblin Welder, I'd rather resolve Gifts and get Slaver and Jar.

Yet, people still aren't running 4 copies of Gifts with their Goblin Welders.

Mana curves are good.

[Vegeta2711]

I completely disagree.  Fact is utterly busted in Slaver.  If it were unrestricted, *I* would play Control SLaver with 4. 

Fact is an utter bomb in the control mirror and it has insane synegry with Goblin Welder.   Night's Whisper is garbage compared to FoF.   I have been using Night's Whisper in my vintage decks since the card was printed (see Meandeck Tendrils).  Whisper requires a black source - which makes you vulnerable to wasteland if you find a Sea.  The deck already has enough mana base strain in the need for red for Welder. 

Slaver has the best Facts in the game right now.  Not running it AND jar is folly. 

In all seriousness though, you start to hit a point where your running so many expensive cards in CS, you can't even properly ifx your hand until turn 3. Considering that's one of Slaver's biggest selling points, I'd put a lot more thought into how many more virtual 6 card hands I'm going to draw with the deck.

And saying it's folly doesn't mean all that much, when Shay and Kowal basically disagree with that assessment. You know, the people that actually play the deck. 

[zeus-online]

Isnt memory jar just another nutty card in CS that gets shut down by null rod?

Also, FoF is like urh, the best card drawer since Ancestral recall (imo)....And i'd agree with Smmenen that slaver uses FoF better then almost any current deck.

While i dont play slaver, i do play AGAINST  slaver, and aside from tinker, slaver and will, the card i fear most is probably FoF.

/Zeus

Edit: Oops i meant best Blue card-drawer Obviosly bargain and necropotence is better.

[Vegeta2711]

Isnt memory jar just another nutty card in CS that gets shut down by null rod?

Also, FoF is like urh, the best card drawer since Ancestral recall (imo)....And i'd agree with Smmenen that slaver uses FoF better then almost any current deck.

While i dont play slaver, i do play AGAINST  slaver, and aside from tinker, slaver and will, the card i fear most is probably FoF.

/Zeus

1. There are no good Null Rod decks currently being played. Even if they were, CS still runs artifact destruction and bounce last time I checked.

2. Ancestral, Jar, Timetwister, Wheel, Time Spiral, Gush

These are all arguably better than FoF, but it's pointless since it depends on the deck. In here, Jar is better than FoF. So why run two expensive cards when we can run one that's just better?

[Smmenen]

I completely disagree.  Fact is utterly busted in Slaver.  If it were unrestricted, *I* would play Control SLaver with 4. 

Fact is an utter bomb in the control mirror and it has insane synegry with Goblin Welder.   Night's Whisper is garbage compared to FoF.   I have been using Night's Whisper in my vintage decks since the card was printed (see Meandeck Tendrils).  Whisper requires a black source - which makes you vulnerable to wasteland if you find a Sea.  The deck already has enough mana base strain in the need for red for Welder. 

Slaver has the best Facts in the game right now.  Not running it AND jar is folly. 

In all seriousness though, you start to hit a point where your running so many expensive cards in CS, you can't even properly ifx your hand until turn 3. Considering that's one of Slaver's biggest selling points, I'd put a lot more thought into how many more virtual 6 card hands I'm going to draw with the deck.

And saying it's folly doesn't mean all that much, when Shay and Kowal basically disagree with that assessment. You know, the people that actually play the deck. 

We had a conversation about this at the scg event, and I thought I heard Andy say that he was running Fact, but Ben was not

I think both jar and Fact are ludicrous in Slaver, and I simply cannot understand why Fact doesn't make the cut.

I've seen Rich win so many games off a broken fact, and to not run it now just is baffling. 

Furthermore, the statement that you'd not run four facts also blows me away.

Fact is much different than gifts in that respect.  You can fact into more facts and chain them in a way that you can't with gifts.  fact, even if not revealing more facts, thins your deck so that more facts are near the top.  Its like necro..... gifts takes the best cards OUT of your deck.  Fact doesn't.  ...then again, I may be one of the few people playing competitive type one who played just as competitive when four facts were legal.

My fundamntal problem is the claim that it is Fact v. Jar.  This is a false choice.  Both cards deserve a spot. 

[Cross]

I think it's more of an issue of casting costs versus effects; you have thirst at a smaller casting cost giving you a similar effect to fact.

[Mantis]

Aside that, I've never really found FoF really that gamebreaking, it was mostly a win more card for me while I just see Jar as 5 mana costing Door to Nothingness.

FoF is garbage.  If it were unrestricted tomorrow I still wouldn't run any of them.  It costs a lot and has a piddly effect on the game for what you have to pay to use it.  This is extra important in Slaver since your curve is already so high--  you really need cheaper spells to not suck.

As far as your comment on Jar, I'm not sure if you're criticizing it or not--  If you are, keep in mind it's a 5 cost door to nothingness with no activation cost, which is pretty good in a format where people get ridiculed for not running Bargain.

I totally think Jar is amazing and much more amazing then FoF. My comment about Door to Nothingness was just referring to a spell that only costs 5 mana and if properly played leaves you in a position where it's very hard to lose, comparable to Yawgmoth's Will. The synergy that Jar has with the rest of the deck is insane and much more insane than the synergy FoF has with the rest of the deck.

If you want to run both FoF and Jar what would you cut in the deck to make space? I think it just fucks up your curve like I said before.

[Smmenen]

Here is MY Control Slaver List:

Meandeck Control Slaver

25 mana
10 Artifacts
5 Fetch
3 Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Volc
2 Sea
1 Academy

35 spells
4 Thirst
4 Brainstorm
4 Drain
4 FoW

3 Welder
2 Slaver
1 Trike
1 DSC
1 Tormod’s Crypt

1 Echoing Truth
1 Rack and Ruin/ Shaman (I prefer the latter)
1 Memory Jar

1 Fact
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Yawg Will

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 DT
1 Mystical

The primary differences are:

LOTUS PETAL.  NOt running Lotus Petal is asinine in my view.  The card is ludicrous.  I would also definately run Vampiric Tutor - I'm totallly with Vegeta on that one. 

[tehmajickguy]

LOTUS PETAL.  NOt running Lotus Petal is asinine in my view.  The card is ludicrous.  I would also definately run Vampiric Tutor - I'm totallly with Vegeta on that one. 

Kowal's top 8 list from SCG day 1 did have Lotus Petal in it.

[Smmenen]

Ah, good.

I was comparing my list to Shays.  I didn't know kowal had petal. 

[Mantis]

Chosing FoF over Fire/Ice is indeed the correct choice I think. It obviously depends on the metagame but too often do I find myself using Ice to tap down a land and cantrip into a new card where having FoF would be so much better as I usually don't play Fire/Ice before I have 4 mana up anyway, so it will not conflict with the curve anyway. I'm with Steve here.

[Vegeta2711]

Chosing FoF over Fire/Ice is indeed the correct choice I think. It obviously depends on the metagame but too often do I find myself using Ice to tap down a land and cantrip into a new card where having FoF would be so much better as I usually don't play Fire/Ice before I have 4 mana up anyway, so it will not conflict with the curve anyway. I'm with Steve here.

I'd sooner run Lava Dart to be honest. Cut another card to fit in FoF if you want, just have something to kill Confidant, Xantid and other Welders with.

I also prefer Petal in the deck. Then again I like anything that helps me get turn 1 Drain mana up.