{Deck}[Combo] : TPS or Grim Long or IT?

[kras2005]

{Deck}[Combo] : TPS or Grim Long or IT?

Looking at the latest Results of Rochester at SCG I am pretty stunned to
see not one TPS list present. Though 14 Grim Long decks showed up. And 7
IT-lists. But Grim Long has Top8'ed three times, while IT has not. What
is the reason behind this? Could it be that Grim Long is more popular? Or
is it simply better?

I am currently playing TPS, the following:
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Cunning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force Of Will
1 Frantic Search
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
1 Darksteel Colussus
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stifle
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Misdirection
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tormod's Crypt

Created by myself. It is not very exceptional; it is very common. I have a
full list of Match-up analysis with sideboard choises.

The only problem is, I don't own Grim Tutors. The prices have gone skyhigh
suddenly, and I am not interested in buying them so expensive.

The advantages of Grim Long:
i) It is faster,
ii) It has more Tutors (obviously), so it can find a way to avoid hate.

The disadvantages of Grim Long:
i) It has little answers to hate,
ii) Easier to disrupt; weaker mana-base.

The advantages of TPS:
i) It plays Force of Will MB,
ii) It is more consistent.

The disadvantages of TPS:
i) It is slower,

Well, both decks have very much trouble with a Chalice @ 1. Seriously, a
Chalice @ 1 is by far the worst thing that can happen. Then follows:
Chalice @ 0, Pyrostatic Pillar, Arcance Lab and all other known anti-combo
cards like Wasteland, Duress, Mana Drain, Tormod's Crypt andsoforth.

And now my question is:
i) Is Grim Long strictly better than TPS?
ii) Or is it better in this environment at this moment?

I intend to open a discussion about comborelated decks. I am not talking
about Two-Land Belcher, Dragon or Gifts because they are pretty different
or just worse.

Greetings Kras.

[Implacable]

In the area where I live, TPS is pretty much considered an inferior build of Tendrils.dec.  Grimlong, while hard to play, is much faster and has much more raw power, and IT is just as fast as TPS but with better cards.  Why would a person want to play TPS over IT?

[M.Solymossy]

As an influential piece of the IT concept, and as someone who has watched the deck develop since it's first public showing at Game Universe in Milwaukee on 1-7-06, i can say that IT is a TERRIBLE Choice for a player if they're not VERY efficiant with combo... but it IS the best.

[g0tenks00]

The advantages of Grim Long:
i) It is faster,
ii) It has more Tutors (obviously), so it can find a way to avoid hate.

The disadvantages of Grim Long:
i) It has little answers to hate,
ii) Easier to disrupt; weaker mana-base.

It seems like the bolded points tend to contradict each other, but this might just be that I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say. I think that, from a power level standpoint, Grim Long is the better deck. Now with Steve's FoW sideboard technology, it seems that tps may be relegated to being an inferior combo deck in vintage.

It can be argued that consistency is an issue with grim long, and that tps is the more consistent deck. However, I think this is only because of the difficulty in piloting grim long. As per Steve's tournament report, there is not really one consistent path to victory with grim long, so there is no real linearity in play strategy. Personally, I would rather explore and work at effectively piloting grim long than spend time with variants of tps or IT.

[MaxxMatt]

@Implacable   ( & Kras2005 )

If your answer is strictly connected to the list Kras2005 posted above here, I can be with you about *what* should be considered superior or inferior to play.

but, if you are blindly referring to a combo scale of strenght in such a way ( GrimLong >> IT >> TPS ) I should aware you about it being completely out of context and inaccurate.

Combo decks are not only *pure speed* or *quick wins*.
You should be able to play Combo in different enviroments, playing different lists but with a basic deck's skeleton that would let you *survive* far more before thinking about winning percentage and game's rates.

Because of TPS' list isn't updated, I would do the work for you all
On this issue, I would post, here, for reference, the skeleton of what should be considered a R E C E N T version of TPS.
The one posted is at least 1 year old, if not more.
Here is a skeleton ready to be played.
I would add some possible different choices that would fit your playstile and metagame.

27 Mana Fonts ( 10 Artifacts, 5 fetch, 4 Rituals, 3 U.Sea, 2 Swamp, 2 Island, 1 Academy ).
9 Protections ( 4 FoW, 4 Duress, 1 Rebuild )
7 Bombs ( 2 Gifts, 1 Necro, 1 Bargain, 1 Y.Will, 1 Desire, 1 Timetwister )
6  Fixers and Drawers ( 4 BS, 1 Ancestral, 1 Walk
3 Tutors ( 1 Demonic, 1 Vampiric, 1 Mystical )
4 Winners ( 2 ToA, 2 C.Wish )
Sideboard: Brainfreeze and other C.Wish targets. You can add Defence Grid and T.Crypts too

You have an almost untouchable skeleton of cards that can win the game for you by their own.
You have only to take care of your self and find the needed 4 remaining cards to let you win minimizing the play errors.

As almost any combo deck ( expecially for a Storm.Based.Once ) it would usually win or lose *alone*.
For the last 4 cards, I can suggest you a selection ( with their respective "#" ) of choices:

Fact or Fiction,
Night's Whisper,
Chain of Vapour,
Library of Alexandria,
Cabal Ritual,
Recoup,
Tinker,
Memory Jar,
Darksteel Collossus,
Gifts Ungiven,
Dark Confidant,
Burning Wish,
Skeletal Scrying,
Mana Drain,
Impulse,
Hurkyll's Recall,
Remand,
Echoing Truth.

***Note. If you play a single red maindeck spell, one Volcanic Island would be enough to let you have it in play when needed.

***Note 2. Stop referring about Time Spiral or Frantic Search or anyhting else weird or crappy as *possible maindeck choices* for TPS. If you refer to a deck filling it with useless cards, the appeal for the reader would decrease fast enough to stop testing it



I would help you again assembling for you the most used and cool maindeck configurations, played all around here in Europe ( stop thinking *only* about U.S.A. as the only possible game choice ) and somewhere in America.

+3 Nights' Whisper
+1 Chain of Vapors

+1 Skeletal Scrying
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Chain of Vapors
+1 Cabal Ritual

+3 Dark Confidant
+1 Library of Alexandria

+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Recoup
+1 Tinker
+1 Memory Jar

+1 Burning Wish
+1 Recoup
+1 Tinker
+1 Memory Jar
+1 Hurkyll's Recall
-1 Cunning Wish

and so on...

I would like to point out that IT and TPS are different decks with almost the same goal.
Protect your self with the cheapest and most resilient set of protections you can achieve and then try to win rising up the storm count. Killing with Brainfreeze or Tendrils isn't crucial. The important thing to do is survive and rise the storm count.

IT and TPS are blue and black.
They kill in the same way ( 10+ Spells and ToA ).
They use the same strategy ( EoT Bomb, Mainphase Bomb+Protection, Win ).

Which is the difference?
Speed?
Almost, No.
Difficulty?
Not too much.
Different approach to the game?
No.

Hatability?
YES


IT win so much through Y.Will to consider grave hate a good strategy to stop or slow down the entire deck.
TPS can win both with Y.Will but almost equally with other *secondary* tools ( such as storm generators, multiple tendrils, coupling DSC+ToA kills and so one.


If you want to judge GrimLong or TPS or IT ( IMHO, all those decks are differently but really strong ), play against real opponents during long tourneys ( 8+Swiss' Rounds ).
If you are equally prepared to play each of them, the most rewarding is and would always be the most resilient to hate and the most stable among them.
It is not MaxxMatt's will to state this truth, but *Statistics themselves*

Have such a deck a nameor not? Maybe yes or not, I'm not here to encourage anyone to play one of them.

I feel that anyone of them could be considered SUPERIOR if compared with the other in specific field or against specific pairings.

Multiple MW.dec and Fish deck would severely stress GrimLong's player.
A field in which anyone would heavily pack grave hate, would reduce a lot the winning rate of IT.
If you are going to face discard effects copuled with good drain based decks, you can have an hard time playing TPS.

These are my hints.
I'm too wise to say that TPS or GrimLong or IT are THE BEST combo deck.
I would not bring to a tourney anyone of them.
They are combo decks.
They would lose or win the game instead of you.

How often any other deck can scrub you out?
Enough, but ...for sure, far less than TPS, IT or GrimLong.


MaxxMatt

[Vegeta2711]

IT is just a weaker Grim Long unless you play in a Stax heavy metagame. TPS (especially without Confidant) is like... well it's like Grim Long, but slower, running less tutors and generally has the same good matches as GL. Just with less power.

[ErkBek]

IT has made traditional TPS obsolete. So I think this should be IT vs. Grim Long. The decision shoudl come down to these 2 factors: Playstyle and Metagame.

Playstyle:  IT is more of a combo control deck. My latest build runs 2 drains as well as 2 Deep Analysis, while maintaining a consistant turn 3 kill. IT also usually invovles no draw7's or mind's desire into the win, which greatly reduces the luck (or bad luck) factor invovled in comboing with grim long. Grim Long on the other hand is a much more pure combo deck. It requires you to play somewhat risky plays at times, that often have positive consequences.

Metagame: Grim Long has a better matchup vs. gifts and slaver than IT.
IT has better matchups vs. fish and stax.
No matchup is unwinnable for either deck by any means though.

@ Grim Long out performing IT in Rochester: Grim Long had a great pilots. I can't comment on the IT players, because I don't know any of them. Kevin Folinus did top 16 both days with IT (10th and 16th), so he must be pretty good.

[Smmenen]

I would not bring to a tourney anyone of them.
They are combo decks.
They would lose or win the game instead of you.

How often any other deck can scrub you out?
Enough, but ...for sure, far less than TPS, IT or GrimLong.

This is blatently false.  I have never ever blamed my deck for anything.  Any time I've lost, it's been pilot error. 

If anything, my deck has been exceedingly forgiving of my play. 

[warble]

This is blatently false.  I have never ever blamed my deck for anything.  Any time I've lost, it's been pilot error.

Hahahahahaha.  Oh, I mean you really added a lot to this thread, Steve.

My choice is really between a modified version of Grim Long or a modified version of TPS.  The real drawback of IT is that the deck needs those initial turns to set up, while both grim Long and TPS can go off on turn 2 consistently without that broken mana development.  This means that playing through hate, which seems to be the main point addressed, is either only relevant for one turn or irrelevant altogether in the case where you win the coin flip with Grim Long.  TPS supports a more controllish build as well as an aggressive build, but with Grim Long you have the ability to really go off on turn 1 CONSISTENTLY.  Thus, you should weigh your options with this in mind.  TPS can be built to go really aggressive into a tournament, but that build is almost strictly inferior to Grim Long's standard build.  In that same regard, a controllish build of Grim Long will be almost strictly inferior to TPS's standard build.  That being stated, the initial statement made:

The advantages of TPS:
ii) It is more consistent.

is completely false.  TPS is, without a doubt, one of the least consistent combo decks ever invented, while Grim Long would be the most consistent hands down.  Grim Tutor's sole ability to grab either black lotus or yawgmoth's will means that you can really consider it a 0-mana tutor for black lotus on turn 1...something that TPS just doesn't have to offer.  8 black lotuses?  Yes, thank you.  That being said, my preference is for even more control than Grim Long provides, while maintaining the ability to win on turn 1 at least 50% of the time.  Unfortunately, doing that means that a combo approach is no longer feasible with what I want to get out of a match, but if I did want to play combo the best and most efficient manner is to win on turn 1 with the highest possible percentage, while giving myself the most ways to dig out of a hole if I play 2nd or run myself into a Force of Will.  That deck is Grim Long, and it's scary because it can do exactly that and was designed with those core principles applied and maximized.

[Smmenen]

Well, i remember steve houdllette chastized me - he said that i wouldn't be able to maximize my skill with grim long as much as I can with a drain deck.  My experience couldn't have been more different.

Let me cut to a core matter which has not been raised as directly as it should be:

The legalization of Grim Tutor.


Grim Tutor is the card that makes both IT and Grim Long viable.  TPS does not run it, therefore how could TPS possibly compete when both IT and Grim Long have proven themselves in the post portal environment?  I'm not saying it can't but it seems like TPS would want Grim Tutor and thus become a bad IT OR a 2 or 2.5 color Grim Long. 

[MaxxMatt]

Warble rised some good points.
At least wise ones.
*Wise ones* usually let us develop a discussion.

Steve, you seem to singlehandly but consistently reach a *not-coming-back-point*, each time you want to support your thesis.
Anyone reading your lines and accepting the first or the second instances, would usually follow you in your logic, until your personal hypothesis would bring them to universal consequences.
Even Socrates would argue that specific arguments cannot conduce to universal conclusions.

But I'm not a philosopher but only an eclettic physician.
I crush hypotheris before going to confirm thesis.
I would FOR SURE conclude that Grim Tutor is *the lecture key* between TPS and IT/GL if we would talk about what each of them can do undisturbed.
Goldfish and win.
Grim Tutor is THE-KEY during this process.
Grim for Lotus and you both rise the storm count and procede to win with the other cards in your hand.
While semplicistic, this argument is really strong.
You *can* state that GrimTutor is the evolution of TPS into IT/GL because you analyse THE ONLY aspect of the game that involve it as crucial: Winning Undisturbed.

On the other hand, I would *try*, if possible, to look at the 3 decks with a different perspective.
THIS perspective, while different, is far more wider than the one you analyse.

Warble, correctly, said all those decks can win fast; they can win on turn 1-2 and the differences about their winning rate is a consequence of field and pairings.
That said, I would like to argue about another issue.

If GrimTutor would be the only key difference bewteen these decks, they would perform almost in the same way against anyone, but GrimTutors would help GL to win faster than IT/TPS.
Of course this statement is false.
GL would win faster than IT/TPS only against those decks that would not slow down ( or completely kill ) him too.

Can you play a fast game against Duress+Drain+FoW? Not always.
Can you play a fast game against CotV+Duress+FoW? Not always.
Can you even think about being able to build up a game againt CotV+SoR+Smokestack+Waste? Only if you are on the play.

HOW can GrimTutor be the crucial difference between those 3 decks if we are talking about real life games during which you lose because your opponent PREVENT you from resolving spells?

Don't underestimate my argument.
I'm not claiming your are wrong.
I'm claiming that people playing combo would win more frequently if they can interact MORE on turn 1 or 2, regardless if they are on the play or on the draw, with the OPPONENT's CRUCIAL plays.

If GrimTutor got undisturbed you win.
If GrimTutor got countered, are you able to protect it or yourself?
If GrimTutor got countered and your additional speed slowed down, could you consider yourself able to win in the same way the subsequent turn, or not?

If you answer YES to my questions, you are right. Grim Tutor is THE key difference between those decks.
But, I'm talking to an intelligent player and decbuilder, so you CANNOT tell me simply "yes!"...and win.

My argument would try to accomplish a goal.
While GrimTutor is a powerful tool, the difference between those 3 decks is that 2 of them can prevent opponent's brokeness with a 40% of rate.
You have FoW in side. You would be able to use them only once both if you are on the play or on the draw ( If you are on the play game 3, I'm quite sure, you would side them out again ).
IT and TPS would abuse of the *tempo* that FoW can buy to you during all the 3 games.
Regardless the NUMBER of Bombs and Power, you cannot afford to your best defences more than 50% of the games.
The best defence would be THE KEY of winning tourneys.
FoW+Duress are both Cheap, On-Color and funcitonally different PERFECT tools.

Me and at least Warble, are completely sure about this argument: Play with a deck that not autoscoop because of opponent LUCKY ( but possible! ) brokeness.
Adding power is cool and strong.
you can sometimes overwhelm opponents with it.
On the other hand, cutting FoWs, IMHO, could be considered not completely safe.

Long lasting tourneys, would see you, as much as me, both as "winner" or "loser" but, when I play with FoWs, I'm in peace with my soul because I did all the needed available to avoid stupid losses.

Warble correctly states that TPS, IT and GL can win on turn 1.
Warble states that IT needs more mana available to afford quick wins rather than GL and TPS.
You correctly states that GL can win faster than the other 2 on turn 1.
I would assure to anyone that GL cannot win through Hate or FoWs as much as TPS/IT.

It is not the player to be unable to accomplish such a goal, but the STRUCTURE that you gave to the deck.
For these reason, and not for any other flaming issue, I would argue that FastComboDecks usually lose or win by themselves.
If you play a deck that cannot avoid opponent to prevent you from playing, you are playing a strong deck that can scrub you out.





Finally, the difference among our perspective would be underlined here too.

If anything, my deck has been exceedingly forgiving of my play.

It isn't your deck to be forgiving, but opponent's ones for not punishing you for your aggressive deckbuilding.
On the other hand, as I stated before, I think that you are not unprepared and you know the field really well.
That said, you could be aware of what opponent can do far better than opponents' themselves.
So you choose to play GL after you analyzed the field.
In a different field, maybe, you would have played a slightly different deck.

IMHO, your argument, fails to be true when you have to project a combo deck for a field where the hate against your GL is high and/or you don't know perfectly which are opponents' weapons.

Being more on topic, I feel that both IT/TPS are good choices for a general porpouse metagame. They are not *the best* deck, but far more over the average ones.
GL, on the other hand, can be considered stronger when unexpected but it is not as much as strong as the other two when it is the deck to beat.
In the end, the best thing that I can argue, is that TPS/IT, being able to take care of themselves, are as much as strong regardless the amount of hate that they have to face.
Talking about a combo deck, I cannot ask more than this.


Maxx

PS.

... how could TPS possibly compete when both IT and Grim Long have proven themselves in the post portal environment?

When played, even in this post-portal enviroment, TPS proved to be able to win.
Surf through Internet and look at the results of this deck when it sees plays.
If you look *only* into USA, where none plays it, it would be really difficult to correctly weight and judge  it.

[Moxlotus]

IT has made traditional TPS obsolete. So I think this should be IT vs. Grim Long. The decision shoudl come down to these 2 factors: Playstyle and Metagame.

Playstyle:  IT is more of a combo control deck. My latest build runs 2 drains as well as 2 Deep Analysis, while maintaining a consistant turn 3 kill. IT also usually invovles no draw7's or mind's desire into the win, which greatly reduces the luck (or bad luck) factor invovled in comboing with grim long. Grim Long on the other hand is a much more pure combo deck. It requires you to play somewhat risky plays at times, that often have positive consequences.

Metagame: Grim Long has a better matchup vs. gifts and slaver than IT.
IT has better matchups vs. fish and stax.
No matchup is unwinnable for either deck by any means though.

@ Grim Long out performing IT in Rochester: Grim Long had a great pilots. I can't comment on the IT players, because I don't know any of them. Kevin Folinus did top 16 both days with IT (10th and 16th), so he must be pretty good.

I could not agree more.  It is important to note that Folinus got 10th on day 1 due to tiebreakers.  IT could have easily replaced one of the Grim Long players in the top 8.  Looking at a few examples I would say it definitely involves style.  Steve has made top 8 3/4 of the time he plays Grim Long.  Becker made top 8 2/2 in SCG events with IT.  Folinus made top 16 2/2 times, one of those times missing top 8 due to tiebreakers.  Endress made top 8 one day and 19th (on tiebreakers) in Richmond with IT.  The other players made top 8 one day and kinda bombed the others.  Those are the only combo player trends I have seen--but they heavily suggest it is the player more than the deck. 

[Tin_Mox5831]

First off, let me preface this post with a small disclaimer. I certainly respect all of the decks as well as their pilots. Anyway, with that out of the way, here is what I have learned by playing all three of the decks mentioned at different points. TPS is far and away the easiest of the three decks to play. In exchange, TPS suffers from a lack of pure power due to the high density of maindeck answers it packs. This makes it a solid choice for less experienced combo players in hostile metagames. The next deck in terms of forgiveness is IT. The deck has an inherent stability primarily due to it's use of Intuition. This stability, however, comes at the cost of some of your brokenness, but clearly less so than TPS. At the other end of the spectrum, we have Grim Long. This deck is by far the most concentrated list of the three. It rewards tight play, but at the same time, strictly punishes multiple mistakes more than the other two lists. Some very good Grim Long players (namely Paul and Smmenen) have imparted a great piece of wisdom upon me about the deck. Basically, you get one or two mistakes with Grim Long. If you surpass that threshold of errors, you may as well extend your hand for the concession right now. So, to make a long story short, determine where your playskill is at and make your choice accordingly. If you let yourself be fooled about your ability, you won't make the right call. Anyway, don't take that as a knock at all, I just feel that proper self-analysis will lead you to make the right choice for yourself rather than picking "The Deck" if that deck doesn't suit you.

Later,
Dave

[kras2005]

I just wrote a pretty long reply, but my f#@(%^ windowscomputer lacked to get it to TMD and now i've lost it and I don't have a safe.

Well, anyways, I'm not going to write it fully again. This is in short what I wanted to say:
To MaxxMatt:
I don't fully agree with everything. The skeleton of TPS isn't always like that. Normally I run 14 land sources because I like to have a land drop the first two or three turns; wasteland is so common around here. Furthermore, I never play more than 1 Cunning Wish. It is necessary but I would rather not draw it.

Q: Why would you play 2 Gifts? I run one. I like drawing it, but I never want two in hand. You don't have enough broken cards in your deck to let Gifts resolve twice. And you cannot go that broken with it as Gifts can; you don't (want to) run Recoup because you don't have Drains and therefor not enough mana.

I agree Time Spiral and Frantich Search aren't very broken on thereself, but they do smoothen the deck and it has some great sinergy with many cards in the deck. I switch them often and they do get sided out usually, because they are weak. I'm thinking about taking a new look at the deck to replace some cards. But that won't be now; I am too busy at the moment with my colleges and exams.

Q: Would you run Wheel of Fortune? You need a Volcanic MB. Would you sacrifice TPS' strong manabase for one (or two (which)) Red card(s)? Time Spiral does the same and more for blue mana, though a bit more expensive.

My skeleton of TPS always look like this:
27 or 28 Mana Sources,
9 Protection,
6 to 8 Bombs,
6 Fixers and draws,
3 Tutors,
3 Winners,
1 Bounce.
That leaves about 3 to 5 cards left to either metagame or smoothen your own deck. What should these be?

Smmenen:
Yes, the legalization of Grim Tutor has had a major influence on Tendrils Combo. But I don't own any Grim Tutors. I regret that.

My playstile definately longs towards TPS, and not to Grim Long. I would consider IT though.

As MaxxMatt and Kobefan says, It depends on you playstile and Metagame. I would also add that the three decks each have their advantages and disadvantages. I don't think TPS is in every way obsolete. TPS can fight better through (rephrase: prevent) enemy hate than Grim Long. Also IT can use Intuition to play around it.

Remand is worth testing in my environment.

Greetings Kras.

[AJFirst]

IT has made traditional TPS obsolete. So I think this should be IT vs. Grim Long. The decision shoudl come down to these 2 factors: Playstyle and Metagame.

Two things.
@ Becker: this is absolutely correct.
@ Thread creator: Owned.

Metagame: Grim Long has a better matchup vs. gifts and slaver than IT.
IT has better matchups vs. fish and stax.
No matchup is unwinnable for either deck by any means though.

I think IT has the same match-up as Long against Gifts. Long's faster, so it races it, but IT has more options for reactive vs. proactive control which allows it to out-control gifts for the few turns it needs to combo out all over their face. A Tendrils facial, I guess you could say.

Other than that though, I completely agree; TPS is junk, and GrimLong and IT are both significantly better. GrimLong is easier to play (more Draw-7s, less tutor power), even though still insanely difficult to master, while giving more speed to the deck. IT is more resilant to hate (Chalice, Rod, Lab (even though Long races it), Crypt, multiple counters), but doesn't have to same fundemental turn. I'm not going to throw out numbers that I don't have facts on. I'll let the guys who designed and tested the decks to do that (Stephen and Eric)
-AJ

(Eric, I missed you at the tournement today. I had to leave early and you showed up late. I saw you, but we didn't get to talk. Next time though.)

[AngryPheldagrif]

I think IT has the same match-up as Long against Gifts. Long's faster, so it races it, but IT has more options for reactive vs. proactive control which allows it to out-control gifts for the few turns it needs to combo out all over their face. A Tendrils facial, I guess you could say.

(disclaimer: I speak from the perspective of my own rather aggressive version of Meandeck Gifts)

This is simply not true. GrimLong is infinitely scarier than IT is to Gifts. GrimLong simply wins before Gifts can play spells, whereas the turn or 2 IT devotes to setup lets Gifts get Duress, Drain, and tutoring/drawing online to overwhelm IT. Heck, you can even occasionally race slow IT hands.

[AJFirst]

Point taken. Right now I'd still say IT is better, but that's only because there are infinit Chalice of the Voids in the Midwest.
-AJ

[Kevin Folinus]

In Rochester I piloted IT and the deck seems solid. The only deck I didn't want to play was Gifts, a rare deck it seems (especially with a good player on the other end). It wasn't the decks fault that it never made a Top 8. On both Day 1 & 2 I had a chance to make it but made a mistake along the way keeping me out. Day 1 (x-2) I lost to a Grim Long player because I went for turn 1 game 3 (on the play) double duress instead of c. extraction on Tendrils because I thought he might have FoW's in the deck. The extraction would have guaranteed atleast a draw but most likely a win for me. Then day 2 my 1 loss from Kobolds was due to bad SB'ing. It isn't a deck I prepared against and should have sided the way I do against Grim Long. Instead I thought my deck was faster then it and sided incorectly. These were all huge mistakes and the good IT players probably would have Top 8'ed if they played.

Here is where I will give some advice. I know I'm not good but it's stuff people did wrong all weekend.

Chain of Vapor: The greatest card EVER. Sac'ing lands for threshold (Cabal Ritual) is a pretty great play. The better play is DMG on the stack bouncing your confidant to kill a meddling mage or so you can massacre.

Necropotence: Life Total - 1 (or you die) + 3 (grim tutor) + 1 (FoW) + 1 (if you will NEED to fetch) + # of dmg he can deal (remember Ninjitsu..it might matter) = How much you Necro for. Someone will follow this guide and miss a tapped mana vault or crypt in play but it's a good start to understanding how much to necro for.

Intution: You can trick your opponents all day with this card.

Trample: Dmg can all be assigned to one creature even if your guy has trample and you can assign more then enough dmg to kill. Otherwise a 4/4 could block a 10/10 trample all day as long as there was a pumper in play (dmg on the stack..pump to save).

[MaxxMatt]

Read the following notes as coming from a man that commonly test Combo matchups more than needed, because I feel that those are one of the hardest to win.

I would like to underline that I have both IT and GL built up and they are part of my gauntlet. I have no TPS ready to be played, because we tuned it for more than an year and we knew it better than anything else.

These are commonly played Intuitions Tendrils

while

these other ones are commonly played TPS

and

The same search for GL


Why am I posting those "easy to find" lists?
If you look at *TPS* results in America, you would find them winning only in the past while new combo builds all resembled IT or GL.
An opposite situation can be found in Europe.

Have they been dropped because of results?
No, they disappeared from Top8 because of the lack of TopTier players giving it a chance.

Why?
Because, as usual, the best player play OR the best deck that they can master OR the best deck that *recently* won around him.

What can I say?
In Europe, where different deck and fields can be find, I discovered TPS be one of the winning choices, now, such as in the past

Again, Why?
Because people continued to tune and adapt it to metagame instead of dropping it and considering it old and weird.
A lot of changes have been done during those months tryng to achieve this goal and TPS continued to win, WHEN PLAYED.
Usually,  best players can win with their pet decks such as with unexpected ones.
Those same players, can win with decks difficult to hate out, be they combo, control or aggrocontrol ones.


The current metagame is filled with hate for combo decks.
The same hate can bring it to both easy wins ( no hate to face ) or stupid losses ( hate to face ).

Both TPS, IT and GL can die to hate, but they usually DIE to different form of hate, because of their own structure.
...Sorry combo players, continue to read, but be kind with me even if I'm telling to all the people here which are the crucial differences among those decks, underlining WHEN they can be played and WHY...


TPS and IT have a similar structure.
They have FoW, Duresses and Bouncer to protect theirselves and enhance storm counts.
They have solid mana bases, few color but strong bombs. They achieve a winning position in different ways and those processes can be deadly or winning ones, when playing in an unknown metagame.
The first one, usually can develop his own mana base, check opponent's hand and tutor brokeness. After then, they pull out a quick sequence of game ending spells in the best way that the player can conceive. There isn't a stronger path to follow, there are different chainable ways to product advantages over the opponent and then try to win.
IT, instead, abuse of a possibly first or second turn abnormal mana development to fill grave and hand of broken spells. Commonly winning routes ( Y.Will ) can be protected with cheap disruption and spells. The interaction between grave and hand is crucial and strong!

GL is broken, in the sense that it can produce lack of interaction at his best.
This precise favorable game situation is *perfect* and the high number of restricted cards in it usually let you abuse of all the sort of tricks and powerleveled plays. Retarded plays are common and they can stress opponent's resoruces until one of them resolve and you instantly win.
IT and TPS can be as much as broken than GL, but the frequence of 1/2 turn kills is really in GL favour.
The same lack of interaction is induced by the hope that the opponent's deck cannot put a stop to his moves.

GL have the minimum amount of disruption available for a combo deck but with the best mana and threats development.
His goal is usually not to play a single first turn threat from hand, but at least two. One could take out opponent's counterspell while the subsequent could usually not be stopped

Even if from my description seems that one of the strategies is better than the other, I think that anyone of them have a lot of additional flaws and pros.

TPS can resist to hate played before it can be able to react and even after.
Its complex winning path leaves to you a lot of open opportunities fomr recovering from bad situations.
Referring to *Hate*, I would consider first turn Trini, CotVs, SoRs, Pyllars, Drains, FoWs, T.Crypts, ArcaneLabs, RuleOfLaw and so on.   
That hate can be superpassed with the inherent solid deck's structure and good maindeck or sideboard choices.
This deck know how to gain *time* and *win* during his last available turn.
It isn't a simply process, but, strong search/bombs balanced with good tools/answers to opponent threats are the best way to achieve the *1-Turn-Kill-Winning-Plateau* without losing to hate.

IT need to speed up his strong plan enough to close the matches as soon as he can, because he consume a lot of resources into the process.
Intuition bury resources, Tutors need mana and the structure is extremely strong if it can chain a couple of bombs with at least one of his defences.
The lack of possible come back after an unlucky series of opponents' defence, usually punish that aggressivity.
Only another combo deck is riskier and more consuming of IT: Belcher.
In IT defence, I can say that it is thousand times more solid than belcher, but resources consuming enough to consder it really mana dependent.
I love that new strategy, but I can assure all, that it can be used really well *only* in specific game situations and fields.

GL is one of the deck that can usually die from hate, but win the susequent game with the same ease. Is it a Constrain for such a  deck?
Not at all, but it is an *unpredictable* weapon to use when you have to weight which deck use and you cannot value the opponents' cards pool.
An opponent's good start with CotV+SoR CotV+Wasteland or Drain+FoW or or Trini+Threat or OtherHate+FoW is usually game ending. Even Wastelands, the best hate of the Magic old era, have reduced his impact against almost all the field but it is extremely effective against GL.
GL is so broken that cannot take care of opponent's weapons, because, in this process, he would lose some of his speed. Is speed the best way to kill opponent's strategy?
GL have only speed and high density threats as most effective winning strategies. It is enough to win tourneys, as much as to lose too much to miss a top8.




GL shines against ANY non MW.dec. or DenialBlueBased ones
IT shines against ANY non GraveHate and MW strategies
TPS shines against ANY Control and AggroControl decks.

GL and IT cannot adapt their strategy too much during the game. They are OR too strong OR too easy for their opponent.
TPS added bonus consist on being as much flexible as broken.

GL, IT and TPS can scrub you out. Those are decks that shift from 27 up to 30 mana fonts. Drawing into more mana than needed is crucial when winning, but lethal when losing games.
On the other hand, you have to produce mana to be able to play ovecosted but game ending spells.

GL have a pletora of Tutors and Draw7 to win, his game plan is oriented to abuse of his mainphase and stopping his mana development is the best way to clunk it.
IT have Tutors, both Instant and Sorcery. He can chain them during opponents EoT diluiting his interaction in the subsequent turn, when he would usually win.
TPS have Tutors and Bombs to resolve both during opponent's EoT and Sorcery speed. His impact on the game vary on how smart and wise is is pilot.

GL and IT are extremely mana intensive. It is the basis of their overwhelming power but their own worst enemy, too.
TPS can compete with them especially in the proper metagame. Fill a place with Fish, MW and Control deck before being sure of paying it.

I really like the last Smmemen's GL list, but until he would not pack in 4 maindeck FoWs, I cannot consider it the best combo deck of the format. It is too open to the opponent's wills when they are playing in their mainphases.
I really like KObefan's works on IT, because it mimic as good as he can, my needs of winning fast with a solid and quick combo deck. It is as much as solid as TPS, but more mana intensive. It would be my deck of choice, if it would be less sensible to grave hate.
I really like the work that we are doing on TPS. *We* means Italian and German players. Some Spanish talented players work with us. I would not bring TPS to a tourney too, even if it is the most *balanced* deck among those ones. I have to *feel* a deck when choosing it for a tourney. At now, it would become the deck of choice, only if that damn 4-5 slots could be filled with stable and good cards, instead of being filled with average ones.


My help for Kras2005 ends here.
I would suggest you to play the deck that you can master better, among those ones.
Any tricky or experienced plays is FAR MORE important than the inherent deckbuilding.
I', sure that you could do well with any deck you'll master




If you want, I can suggest you our bet last build.
Think about it as a *gift* from one of his co-creators


MaxxMatt


TPS - 2006

(28)
4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Cabal Ritual

(13)
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
3 Remand
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Cunning Wish

(13)
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister

(3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

(2)
2 Tendrils' of Agony

Sideboard - (15)
3 Dark Confidant
2 Massacre
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Defence Grid
1 Duress
1 Brainfreeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Chain of Vapors
1 Rushing River


PS: I used *kind* words towards decks that I tested a lot. I'm used to have respect for the different work of other people. It isn't the commonly used behaviour of a lot of people here. I would recommend to all the *commonly superficial judges of others decks* to avoid comments of any nature. They are trivials and uneeded. Test A LOT before talking and we would be friends.

[Webster]

If you're looking for current TPS lists, you'll find them from Europe results on www.morphling.de or from CA where my friends and I have won/split nearly a full set of power with the deck in the last 5 months.

TPS sacrifices speed for resiliency.

Most current TPS shell's look like this:

setup:
4 brainstorm
time walk

protection:
4 force of will
4 duress
1 chain of vapor
1 rebuild

tutors:
mystical tutor
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor

broken:
ancestral recall
mind's desire
timetwister
necropotence
yawgmoth's bargain
yawgmoth's will

the kill:
2 tendrils of agony

accel:
4 dark ritual
7 SoLoMoxen
mana crypt
mana vault
lotus petal

land:
tolarian acadeny
4-5 fetch
3-5 basic
3-4 underground sea

metagame slots:
4-8 cards


most common metagame packages include:

tinker, memory jar

4 dark confidant

1 hurkyl's recall, 1 rebuild (2nd)

2 gifts ungiven, 1 merchant scroll, 1 recoup, 1 wheel of fortune, 1 volcanic island, 1 badlands (volcanic and badlands replace 2 lands keeping the total at 13-14).

1 darkblast

2 cunning wish


TPS is by no means outdated/outclassed although the impression someone may get would suggest otherwise due to the lack of coverage/discussion of tournament results from Europe and CA compared to those east of the Mississippi.


Web

[Neonico]

I think that maxx totally explained the problem. In Europe, we still get some strong players with TPS, still performing very well with it especially in italia and in northern Europa (Deutchland/nederlands) and i think there is one reason for that.

Both IT and Grim got a weakness. An incredible need to resolve the will for the win. There are so much will dependant its not even funny.

TPS and some variants, such as Horden Tendrils (Actually renamed in my team as ToTen (Tobias Tendrils, tribute to the creator)) can win with more regularity without resolving will and that's the main point to play them actually IMHO.

Here in Paris, we got Team CAB members that perform well with Grim but all other regular combo players (and there are some damn good ones) tried both IT and GL without succes and switch back to TPS.

I personnally think (And we actually testing it alot) that the thruth is more between IT and TPS (In fact, a deck with TPS core but featuring intuition to win against stax) than in pure Grim Storm based decks.

On a side note, maxx your list is really strong and i really love it. We allmost came to a close one, featuring Intuition instead of Gifts (as a 2 of) and Night whisper over some slow drawers.
Scrying is great but we cutt it when we removed the red splash (and especially burning wish, which justify both gift and scrying, which become weaker without burning)
We also tested the inclusion of one tutorable Dark confidant main which shined in the control matchup where you can afford a slow start.
Just a quick question, you can think its stupid but did you try Fact instead of Scrying ? What about imperial seal ? We loved him for intuition setups (which is the main reason to include it) but its also very strong without it.

[benthetenor]

Necropotence: Life Total - 1 (or you die) + 3 (grim tutor) + 1 (FoW) + 1 (if you will NEED to fetch) + # of dmg he can deal (remember Ninjitsu..it might matter) = How much you Necro for. Someone will follow this guide and miss a tapped mana vault or crypt in play but it's a good start to understanding how much to necro for.

Slight rules point: Mana Vault deals damage during the combat step, and both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence make you skip that particular step, making Mana Vault -> Yawgmoth's Bargain pretty sweet.

[Webster]

Necropotence: Life Total - 1 (or you die) + 3 (grim tutor) + 1 (FoW) + 1 (if you will NEED to fetch) + # of dmg he can deal (remember Ninjitsu..it might matter) = How much you Necro for. Someone will follow this guide and miss a tapped mana vault or crypt in play but it's a good start to understanding how much to necro for.

Slight rules point: Mana Vault deals damage during the combat step, and both Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence make you skip that particular step, making Mana Vault -> Yawgmoth's Bargain pretty sweet.

Mana vault does damage during your draw step.

Likewise, Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain make you skip your draw step, not combat.


Web

[Smmenen]

I would have sworn that they said skip your combat step as well    

After all, they may as well have

[mistervader]

Funny, but in my mind, resolving Mind's Desire is scarier than resolving Yawgmoth's Will in Grim Long.

I won our proxy tournament (We're usually sanctioned, so this is a rarity.) with Grim Long (And seconded with Friggo the next tourney, but that's not the issue. ) by resolving Desire more than Will. It happened so often that I didn't even care about Tormod's Crypt anymore...

I dunno, but I figure that resolving Desire is way better because barring Stifle, you suddenly multiply threats and your opponent can't do jack about them because at most, they'd be able to counter twice on turn two or three when you resolve Mind's D. If they countered your mana development, then simply go for a Draw 7 afterwards.  (If you planned to generate 6 mana, I'm sure you'd be able to generate 3...)

To me, when playing against Control, resolving Desire is more important than (attempting to) resolve Will, unless Duress or Xantid already guaranteed that Will is going to resolve.

[Moxlotus]

@Maxxmatt.

You missed one major reason to not play TPS.  The deck isn't called That Play Stalled for nothing.  Intuition may use a lot of resources to win, but it will actually win all the time instead of hoping to draw7 into nuts only to pass or giving your opponent counters.  That is the reason TPS isn't played in the US.  IT started as a TPS deck, then we cut the cards that stall out a lot for Intuitions and Grims.  Why play cards that lose you the game that you should be winning?

[Webster]

@Maxxmatt.

You missed one major reason to not play TPS.  The deck isn't called That Play Stalled for nothing.  Intuition may use a lot of resources to win, but it will actually win all the time instead of hoping to draw7 into nuts only to pass or giving your opponent counters.  That is the reason TPS isn't played in the US.  IT started as a TPS deck, then we cut the cards that stall out a lot for Intuitions and Grims.  Why play cards that lose you the game that you should be winning?

This is such a myth. The only symetric draw 7 I run is timetwister which I have stalled out once with. The staple bombs (necro, bargain, mind's desire) don't involve the opponent having access to more cards. When I decide to go off, I know that I will be successful. That's the way TPS plays.

TPS and IT are basically the same shell. The differences being that IT runs 2 grim tutor, 3 intuition, a few deep analysis, and some remand whereas TPS runs metgame packages which are listed above in one of my previous posts. I personally run 4 confidant, 1 hurkyl's recall, and 1 darkblast. The 2 decks are very similar so making the generalization that one is absolutely dominating compared to the other is quite laughable.


Web

[kras2005]

Thanks again for the multiple replies.

You have again wrote a lot, MaxxMatt. About your list. I have a few questions why you play that list. Webmaster
suggests the same skeleton as I do. Talking about a decklist is an other thread so I will PM you.

--
only if that damn 4-5 slots could be filled with stable and good cards, instead of being filled with average ones.
--
Yes, I have thought about this too. Maybe in 37 seven years there would have been enough expansions of magicsets
to have better cards for those 4-5 slots, and even that I doubt.


Webster, I know morphling.de, but I didn't know I could search for decklists. Or do I have to search every tournament
for TPS lists? Is there an option to find them all?

I have tested with 4 Bobs MB, but I definately didn't like it. It is not the problem of life-loss, but drawing them
at bad times. Okay, a first turn Bob is good, but you also draw them if you need to (because of the life-loss) combo
out and then they stall you of even will fizzle you out. Though Confidant SB is very good. It replaces all bad cards
in that matchup and creates good/better matchups.

Greetings Kras.

[Purple Hat]

@Maxxmatt.

You missed one major reason to not play TPS.  The deck isn't called That Play Stalled for nothing.  Intuition may use a lot of resources to win, but it will actually win all the time instead of hoping to draw7 into nuts only to pass or giving your opponent counters.  That is the reason TPS isn't played in the US.  IT started as a TPS deck, then we cut the cards that stall out a lot for Intuitions and Grims.  Why play cards that lose you the game that you should be winning?

This is such a myth. The only symetric draw 7 I run is timetwister which I have stalled out once with. The staple bombs (necro, bargain, mind's desire) don't involve the opponent having access to more cards. When I decide to go off, I know that I will be successful. That's the way TPS plays.

Web

I know I stopped playing tps when I had a tournament where I resolved a "bomb" in every game and didn't even beat mono-g beats....any tendrils deck that casts desire for more than 6 and doesn't immeadiately proceed to win the game is probably not worth playing in my mind.

[Cross]

I feel like saying you won't play TPS is silly, IT is an updated TPS for cards that have become legal. Saying you won't play TPS because IT is better is like saying you won't play Tog 2k4 because gifts is better, it's totally outdated.

However, TPS was a strong deck, and in deckbuilding and in strategy we can all learn something.