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Author Topic: {Deck}[Combo] : TPS or Grim Long or IT?  (Read 16352 times)
Vegeta2711
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« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2006, 12:11:05 am »

Grim Long runs FoW maindeck?  So game 1 your plan is to hope to have the 1 or 2 ESGs in your hand, in addition to the 1 Chain's in your hand...in the initial seven.  Good luck with that.

Intuition is far from bad against any deck.  It is certainly not ass in the Drain matchup and I'm really not sure how anyone could come to that conclusion.  It shines the best against Stax.

GWS's testing with IT against Brian Fisher playing CS (who got 1st @ Richmond day 2, so he's competent) shows IT has the upper edge barely.  At worst its even, so I really don't know why people keep saying IT has a bad matchup against Drains in general.

The deck struggles against Gifts decks, on the draw against Grim Long, and possibly Dragon--haven't tested that matchup since its not popular in our area.

We're ignoring games 2 & 3 now? My bad, apparently I missed that clause of the discussion.

I don't think I've ever cared about Intuition resolving in the Drains match, it just doesn't do much of anything to be worth 3cc. But more power to you if you win off 4cc Duress like Becker. 
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2006, 12:24:21 am »

Intuitions let you build a lethal Will without having to give your opponent a new 7 cards in the Drain match.  I know I hate giving control a new 7 cards when I'm trying to go off--especially game 1 for long when it doesn't have 4 Xantids.
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« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2006, 02:38:08 am »

Intuitions let you build a lethal Will without having to give your opponent a new 7 cards in the Drain match.  I know I hate giving control a new 7 cards when I'm trying to go off--especially game 1 for long when it doesn't have 4 Xantids.

Gifts Ungiven does the same, and more since it can fetch brokeness. Combo does not need to use cards that are dedicated to set up a lethal Will. If your Combo deck is built properly, your Will will be lethal by the time you want to resolve it. There are many games I played against IT where I didnt bother to counter Intuition, because I knew nothing wrong would happen to me if it resolved. For TPS, a resolved Gifts Ungiven seals the deal against Control, especially vs TPS/r.

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It shines the best against Stax.

TPS completely destroys Stax without the need to run Intuition, so that makes it a poor argument here. Just play Rebuild?

I'll second Vegeta on the Intuition thought. Aside from fueling Force of Will and giving Threshold for Cabal Rituals, I see no reason to play Intuition in there.
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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2006, 11:51:17 pm »

But Gifts doesn't get around lock components while at the same time setting up a will.  Gifts doesn't do anything for you in the face of a Chalice or Rod while Intuition lets you win right through them, while at the same time not being as narrow as a simple bounce spell.  No, combo doesn't need to set up Wills if you want to play draw 7s.  I know I hate giving my opponents a chance to find counters after i have Duressed their hand, and Intuition doesn't do that.  Intuition is a versatile card that is pretty much always useful--unlike Gifts, bounce, or a draw 7.
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« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2006, 07:11:22 am »

Is the fact that Intuition costs 1 less gets it around lock components?  I suppose I can see that since Gifts is usually cast off artifact accel, rather than waiting until turn 4.

Even in the face of that, I'd rather have Gifts for the reasons Toad stated--it can fetch more brokeness, and is actual card advantage.  A resolved Gifts spells more doom than a resolved Intuition.  That reason alone makes me prefer Gifts over Intuition.
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« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2006, 09:29:14 am »

Is the fact that Intuition costs 1 less gets it around lock components?  I suppose I can see that since Gifts is usually cast off artifact accel, rather than waiting until turn 4.

Even in the face of that, I'd rather have Gifts for the reasons Toad stated--it can fetch more brokeness, and is actual card advantage.  A resolved Gifts spells more doom than a resolved Intuition.  That reason alone makes me prefer Gifts over Intuition.

I don't think you see the point here. In the face of a Chalice@1, you fetch Lotus,Cabal Rit,Cabal Rit to get around it, making the chalice worthless. Chalice@2? LotusRitualRitual. Chalice@0? Any combination of Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals. It can get around Null Rod+Chalice as well, by simply fetching whatever is appropriate for the situation. Once IT starts comboing off, it RARELY fizzles due to not enough spell count, or mana (if it does, then it's just the players fault, and its usually an obvious mistake). Though this makes IT more reliant on will, it makes it one of the most broken wills in the format (once you cast it, it's really hard for you to lose). You can go on and on and on with your storm count and mana-producers. Even if the YawgWin #1 plan is disabled, you have many other routes to choose from, including YawgWin #2 (Bargain), Hurkyl's Recall storm win, TPS win through card advantage of Deep Analysis, etc. Heck, I've even used Chain of Vapor as a win condition before.
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« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2006, 11:53:03 am »

I don't think you see the point here. In the face of a Chalice@1, you fetch Lotus,Cabal Rit,Cabal Rit to get around it, making the chalice worthless. Chalice@2? LotusRitualRitual. Chalice@0? Any combination of Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals. It can get around Null Rod+Chalice as well, by simply fetching whatever is appropriate for the situation. Once IT starts comboing off, it RARELY fizzles due to not enough spell count, or mana (if it does, then it's just the players fault, and its usually an obvious mistake). Though this makes IT more reliant on will, it makes it one of the most broken wills in the format (once you cast it, it's really hard for you to lose). You can go on and on and on with your storm count and mana-producers. Even if the YawgWin #1 plan is disabled, you have many other routes to choose from, including YawgWin #2 (Bargain), Hurkyl's Recall storm win, TPS win through card advantage of Deep Analysis, etc. Heck, I've even used Chain of Vapor as a win condition before.

dude....if you're playing combo and resolving yawgmoth's will and not winning the game I feel like you're probably makeing obvious play mistakes.
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« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2006, 06:37:55 pm »

Once again, Will doesn't always give you the mana or storm you need if you haven't either played a pair of rituals, or if you haven't played a draw 7.  Intuition lets you win without giving your opponent 7 new cards.  Intuition lets you keep a mundane, but solid hand.  Those hands usually play out turn 1 Duress.  Turn 2 Duress/BS/Intuition.  Turn 3 Will (if intuition) or Intuition setting up a Will.  This is done without rituals or giving your opponent a new hand to try to stop you.  Obviously, if you draw rituals then you just throw your stuff down on the table and win--but Intuition allows you to get a turn 3 kill fairly easily if you don't draw any rituals.  Turn 2 Intuition is fairly common, while turn 2 Gifts would be a lot harder to pull off--slowing you down a turn most of the time.  If you are drawing accelerants, awesome--you should win.  Intuition allows you to win small in games where you draw "meh", while at the same time allowing you to play through lock components.

Dominik explained how Intuition allows you to just bypass lock components.

Intuition is a card that is decent-amazing depending on the match.  Alternatives that people have suggested, like Gifts and Rebuild, can be absolute shit in certain matchups.  Intuition is not a card that's bad in any matchup and I didn't find myself ever boarding them out playing IT.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 06:45:09 pm by Moxlotus » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2006, 08:36:35 pm »

After all these P... Wars, why not try to take the best out of all the worlds. Why not try to further develop the list Heiner presented a little ago that is called Litz Long. Grim Long does play almost the same brokeness as Litz Long and now even FoW in the sideboard. So the only real differences are Regrowth, Wheel of Fortune and Xantid Swarms. I just dont get it, why I should play such a bad manabase - not safe from Wasteland, Bloodmoon whatever, no shuffle effects - just for these three cards. Regrowth is totaly not neccessary, Wheel is nice and thats it  - as bad as Windfall is, Wheel of Fortune is not that much better - and Xantids are great against Control but doesnt have Grim or Litz Long already have a great control matchup? Couldn't you play Boseijus instead? Couldn't you just incorporate Green by a single Bayou? I think an Long List with Fetches and Basics would be the best, why has noone here on TMD presentet at least a list. You could even play ESG and Hurkyls in the side if thats your plan against Staxx. But you could also play an Oath plan or Bobs and Lands as a sideboard strategy against the artifact monster instead.

I also think it makes no sense to compare IT/TPS with Grim/Litz Long. IT and TPS have the same land count and almost the same goldfish turn. Same for Grim and Litz Long, so why not compare just these decks.

There have been several U/b Long lists posted, I've always adapted a U/b Long list since Death Long and posted one on the boards. The problem is most people are just disinclined to take it seriously, despite changing the manabase gives you a better game against Fish and Stax.

One of the most important points no one has brought up against IT is that it is 100% a Yawgmoth's Will deck outside of resolving Bargain, Potence or Desire or an Intution for one of the three. This presents an inherent problem games 2/3 when the most prevalent hate card is some form of GY removal like Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt, because the deck has pigeon holed itself to either bouncing the hate or resolving Intuition for Bargain, Potence, Desire and then getting Desire, removing two of the best cards to turn over with Desire and giving the opponent a free turn.

As much as every one rags on D7's, atleast they give you an alternate game plan to winning the game.
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« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2006, 09:18:59 pm »

Actually, for games 2+3, when you know that your opponent is bringing in more combo/GY hate, you usually become Confidant Beats+Mini Tendrils FTW deck. It might be a simple strategy, but it works VERY well, especially against control and stax. The only time this doesn't work is when your opponent is playing oath.
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« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2006, 05:46:44 am »

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But Gifts doesn't get around lock components while at the same time setting up a will.  Gifts doesn't do anything for you in the face of a Chalice or Rod while Intuition lets you win right through them, while at the same time not being as narrow as a simple bounce spell. 

If higher of lower cc isn't the reason to play Intuitions over Gifts, I think that a lot of *better* things can be done with a single Gifts in a UB-ControlCombo rather than *getting around CotVs* or hate.

Even if you can't tutor for cards in multiple copies, you can add the singletons, the tutors or different other cards to get around CotVs instead only of thinking about settin up Y.Will, that should separately Tutored during the subsequent turn, as well.

Gifts would procude more than a card's replacing effect in your hand and it would fill the grave in almost the same way. When you add an additional card to a selection of three winning ones, I cannot see the arguments of *preferring* Intuitions, rather than his lower cc, which you have not addressed at all.

Mana base are stable enough to rump up to 3 or 4 mana consistently.
With this perspective, I would add GIfts instead of Intuitions, because it is more broken.

In a TPS-like, build, I added Grim Tutor to ( first as a singleton and then I doubled his quantity ), to testify if it is really so game breaking or crucial as anyone here is addressing.
His cc is really comfortable ONLY when you can afford to Ritual into it.
5 Rituals seemed to me enough only to add a single Grim Tutor and I continued playing with a single copy, to warrant a better tutors selection to my Gifts.




Quote
No, combo doesn't need to set up Wills if you want to play draw 7s.  I know I hate giving my opponents a chance to find counters after i have Duressed their hand, and Intuition doesn't do that.  Intuition is a versatile card that is pretty much always useful--unlike Gifts, bounce, or a draw 7.

Oh, stop posting thinking about TPS filled with Draw7.
Those decks stopped to be played since years.
Now we are discussing of Multicolored Draw7 structures ( GL and LizzRedux ) or Instant-Bombs-Filled Storm Combo decks.
I have the same feelings that you have towards Draw7, too.
The only *reset button* that I have is Timetwister, but ONLY because I don't have Red and Recoup into my deck. Otherwise, I would have cut it too.


Quote
I don't think you see the point here.

In the face of a Chalice@1, you fetch Lotus,Cabal Rit,Cabal Rit to get around it, making the chalice worthless.

Chalice@2? LotusRitualRitual.

Chalice@0? Any combination of Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals.

It can get around Null Rod+Chalice as well, by simply fetching whatever is appropriate for the situation.


Finally someone addressed to real play examples.
Before reading your lines, I thought exactly about your interpretation on *WHY* preferring Intuitions to Gifts.

While your examples are really good, I think that you missed a point.
You can do almost the same with Gifts, maybe not directly, but producing more brokeness in a short time.
In the case of facing hate, you can play Gifts, for Playable Accelerations, Playable Tutors and Bouncers.

Which is the difference between Intuiton and Gifts?
You would ALWAYS held two among those cards into your hand. You are far more flexible and not so much extreme in your game  plan.

Is a resolved Intuition always game ending?
Not, if you have to resolve Y.Will to accomplish your Storm Win.
Yes, if you can Storm up without playing Will.

Is Y.Will always gameending? Yes, of course, but you have to resolve it, first, and your opponent can weight that Intuition, gave you only another card, you have to tutor for Will or hold it in your hand and then he can start being frightened about losing.

There isn't no auto-win against hate with Intuitions and Gifts, but with the first you would gain a single strong cards while with the second, you would have two strong cards into hand.

Period.
With a so good mana base and a so strong winning route, playing 3cc spells or 4cc spells is ( often ) the same.


Quote
Once IT starts comboing off, it RARELY fizzles due to not enough spell count, or mana (if it does, then it's just the players fault, and its usually an obvious mistake). Though this makes IT more reliant on will, it makes it one of the most broken wills in the format (once you cast it, it's really hard for you to lose). You can go on and on and on with your storm count and mana-producers. Even if the YawgWin #1 plan is disabled, you have many other routes to choose from, including YawgWin #2 (Bargain), Hurkyl's Recall storm win, TPS win through card advantage of Deep Analysis, etc. Heck, I've even used Chain of Vapor as a win condition before.

All those things are in use even in TPS.
There aren't so many difference of strange game interpretations to do.
You can storm up with almost ANY spell in your deck, as much as I can almost storm up with anything in mine.

Another myth to de-throne:TPS DON'T FIZZLE.
Play well and yu can storm up as high as you need.
Even if you are playing against Life.decs, you can win with TPS. Tutor for Brainfreeze instead of ToA.

Is IT or GL equipped to win against Infinte Life Points?
They could, but... as a matter of fact, they don't seem to foresight that situation...
Am I wrong?


Quote
Turn 1 Duress. 
Turn 2 Duress/BS/Intuition. 
Turn 3 Will (if intuition) or Intuition setting up a Will.

Into this proces, I missed to see how you can consistently have Y.Will or a Tutor for it and play it protected. FoW and Duresses are ok, but you are relying on a Tutored card and maybe 3 or 4 cards over the 7 initial ones.

Is this plan safe enough to be consistently played?
I found that the correct answer is *Not Always*.

If you are going to protect it really well ( rare statistic ), then it is better to play and resolve Y.Will during turn 2 or 3.
If you are going to wait for it and rely on a Duress turn 1 and FoW turn 3, I suppose that Gifts, would have played a better role on setting up Will, because it could have given to you an additional card or different tools to accomplish the same goal.


Quote
One of the most important points no one has brought up against IT is that it is 100% a Yawgmoth's Will deck outside of resolving Bargain, Potence or Desire or an Intution for one of the three. This presents an inherent problem games 2/3 when the most prevalent hate card is some form of GY removal like Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt, because the deck has pigeon holed itself to either bouncing the hate or resolving Intuition for Bargain, Potence, Desire and then getting Desire, removing two of the best cards to turn over with Desire and giving the opponent a free turn.

You are totally right here, for this reason, any deck with a structure similar to TPS or IT, can add ToA and D.Confidants during Game 2 and 3, to achieve the different goal ( winning ) with a different winning path ( multiple minor ToAs ).

Quote
As much as every one rags on D7's, atleast they give you an alternate game plan to winning the game.

This is a misinterpretation of what I usually consider *alternative*.
Draw7s are inherently worse than any other asimmetrical drawers, but they give you the opportunity of being luckier than your opponent and win.

If you are going to use different or *alternative* draw engine, to power up Game 2 and 3, add Confidants or Whispers or anything you need to the deck, but NOT Draw7s.

Either, don't consider them *at least playable* until you have different opportunities.
You can win drawing 3 or 4 cards EVERY turn far more than let you and your opponent drawing 7 more cards in a single turn.

D.Confidant ( when coupled with ToA is THE NUT ) is THE alternative way to abuse to kill opponents, if not the primarily one  Wink

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 06:00:45 am by MaxxMatt » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2006, 11:26:24 am »

One of the most important points no one has brought up against IT is that it is 100% a Yawgmoth's Will deck outside of resolving Bargain, Potence or Desire or an Intution for one of the three.

Not trying to start anything here, but this is simply not true. Some IT players may play that way, but the strategy that I use in testing and that I see better IT players use is to utilize Intuitions and Brainstorms to facilitate two mid-range Tendrils, killing efficiently without using Yawgmoth's Will as a crutch.
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« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2006, 12:43:42 pm »

That observation was based more on what I've seen from local IT players more than anything else, most of them board in a compliment of bounce, I wasn't aware people boarded the Confidant/Tendrils plan in IT as I had never seen it discussed outside of TPS. I still think the argument holds in certain circumstances, such as game one against the decks that utilize MD hate like Leyline or Crypt in Ichorid and Oath.
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« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2006, 02:36:52 pm »

That's a fair observation as well.
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« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2006, 11:23:12 am »

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Head-on, I also realized that Grim Long will have a field day against IT for the most part, as resolving a bomb against IT (Which will more often than not happen.) really all but guarantees you the win already. I've had the opportunity to play against IT using Grim Long in the past, and I definitely had little worry about that match-up. 

Quote from: Steve Menendian
Paul M and I tested IT versus Grim Long in April and found that IT wins when it was on the play.

Obviously, FoW changed it for them, but later went on to say

Quote
I thought of FOrce of Will as a solution, and it stuck.  We tried it and it was amazing.  Part of its amazing ness though was its surprise value.  I'm not sure if it will be as good.

Eric Becker also won against Steve in Richmond on the play, so Steve's testing played out in the same way that tournament match did as well.  I would certainly not say that Grim Long would have a field day against IT.

Hmm... it might be because of the player running IT, then.

He almost lost to me when I was running Friggorid, despite the fact that I didn't even find any of my disruption for him in games 2 and 3.
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« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2006, 11:47:31 am »

Quote
Head-on, I also realized that Grim Long will have a field day against IT for the most part, as resolving a bomb against IT (Which will more often than not happen.) really all but guarantees you the win already. I've had the opportunity to play against IT using Grim Long in the past, and I definitely had little worry about that match-up. 

Quote from: Steve Menendian
Paul M and I tested IT versus Grim Long in April and found that IT wins when it was on the play.

Obviously, FoW changed it for them, but later went on to say

Quote
I thought of FOrce of Will as a solution, and it stuck.  We tried it and it was amazing.  Part of its amazing ness though was its surprise value.  I'm not sure if it will be as good.

Eric Becker also won against Steve in Richmond on the play, so Steve's testing played out in the same way that tournament match did as well.  I would certainly not say that Grim Long would have a field day against IT.

Hmm... it might be because of the player running IT, then.

He almost lost to me when I was running Friggorid, despite the fact that I didn't even find any of my disruption for him in games 2 and 3.

that testing occurred long after that tournament match.

I believe that the IT long match is no longer the same as it was back in March since I've added FoW to the Long sb and since I understand that match alot better now.

Game one should be won by the player on the play, after that, Grim Long should have the upper hand. 
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« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2006, 11:28:22 pm »


@Smmenen
You know that running one Chain of Vapor main and siding 3 of them is completely useless.  If they EVER drop chalice @ 1, none of the 4 chains can bounce it. I went 2-0 vs. someone running Smmenen.dec and i went turn one COTV @ 0, turn 2 COTV @ 1 and Null Rod. Two turns later i dropped COTV @ 2 and they scooped.

Why do you assume that I bring in Chain of Vapor for Chalice?
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