To our European Members

[Komatteru]

This question is directed at the European members who live in countries whose official language is not English.

I'm assuming that for (most of) you guys, English is not your official native language.  However, without naming names, I honestly wouldn't know that you aren't native English speakers if you didn't tell me that you live in a country not called America, Canada, or England.  My question to you is how did you all get so good at English?

In Japan here, people are very, very, very poor English speakers.  They know a lot of words, but they often have trouble pronouncing them, and have major difficulties with sentences (for a lot, they have a hard time saying even simple things such as "I went to the store and bought milk.")  Some of it is the way English is taught here, and a lot of it has to do with the difficulties of the English language.  There is a huge difference between English and Japanese.  However, I have been studying Japanese for only two years, and (without bragging), I can say a hell of a lot more in Japanese than they can in English -- and they've studied English for 6-8 years.  I would like to think that with that much time, I will be pretty incredible at Japanese.  I credit them for trying, but one would think that given that much time, regardless of the difficult, they would be a little better than they are.

So how did you guys do it?

[Limbo]

Speaking for people in the Netherlands:

As a small country we can't conquer the world (well, actually we've been there and done that in our Golden Age, but unless the plan we are developing in ISP will work we're pretty much screwed on that part), so no people outside the Netherlands (and the upper half of Belgium) will ever speak Dutch. So that is only about 22 million people out of 6+ billion that speak Dutch. Not nearly as impressive as English (or Spanish or Chinese for that matter). Adaptation is advised.

As Dutch economy is based on trading and knowledge (high degree of education), we need a decent development in languages. Although we are thought basic French and German in high-school, as these are neighboring languages, English is one of the most wide spread languages of the world. So as a choice for developing it from an apprentice skill to Expert of Master level English is probably the best choice. Adaptation is necessary.

As a small country, we can't make certain investments entertainment-wise. The industry can't afford to translate movies, shows, sitcoms, games, books into Dutch. The bonus of this is that this adds to our development in English. We learn English very young, so we can watch stuff in English. We can watch stuff in English, so we learn it very young...  In addition, we know that translations is a major killer of "Teh Funnay", especially in the British comedies lots of Dutch people appreciate. Try watching Fawlty Towers or Blackadder in Dutch, it would probably suck major arse. Adaptation is enjoying yourself.

Last point is that a very large part of the Dutch delegation here on TMD has finished / is busy finishing a high degree of education. (Think pre-university secondary education, University or higher vocational education). So you are right in your assumption that a lot of people speak good English in the Netherlands, but you are communicating with a portion of the population that might give you an even better impression then what you would get if speaking to random Dutch people in the streets.

[Kasuras]

I agree with most of the points put forward by Limbo, but I think that the answer to your question is really a lot simpler: English, German, French and Dutch have a lot in common due to the ancestry. Japanese, Chinese and English.. don't.

[Pyromaniac]

Another Dutchie chimes in

When you're doing a high level of education, some, or a lot of your books are in English. This means that you're reading stuff like gramar, correct sentence building etc constantly, which aids you a lot with pronouncing it. Also, depending on your profession, you speak a lot of English, since there are quite a lot of foreign students at some universities and as such, you're forced to speak English.

[Limbo]

I agree with most of the points put forward by Limbo, but I think that the answer to your question is really a lot simpler: English, German, French and Dutch have a lot in common due to the ancestry. Japanese, Chinese and English.. don't.

I agree with this, partially. Dutch, German and English definately have the same heritage, they are all Germanic languages (Old northern Europe). I can even speak in my Dutch dialect (although dutchies not living in Limbabwe will claim it is not actually a part of the Netherlands) and Germans will understand a lot of it, and vice versa.

French however, is from a Roman background (same as Spanish, Italian, etc, old Southern Europe). That is why most Dutch people find it significantly harder to learn, speak or write French as compared with German. There is some common ground though, making it indeed easier to learn French then for example Chinese. Using the same friggin alphabet owns (although damn frenchies for using all the ' ` and ^ in their language...)

And indeed, with English books at the university and a lot of English speaking interns / employees at your internships you will dramatically increase your knowledge of English. Even talking to people less eloquent in English increases your English knowledge, as you need to explain some words in different English, as they will not know all of the words you use.

[Godder]

There are some points which may (or may not) help here. English has a huge number of words, far more than any other common language. Most of those words aren't actually English in origin, so many languages can find some sort of common ground. Base words (e.g. pronouns, irregular verbs like 'to do', 'to have' and 'to be', family words like father, mother etc.) are Old English (basically German, as the Angles and Saxons were Germanic tribes) or Norse in origin, which gives English the Germanic origin. However, the most common language of origin for individual words in English is actually French, thanks to the Norman invasion, and there are also plenty of Latin words as well. Old English words are generally short and describe common, important activities and occurences such as living, eating, fighting and so forth. French and Latin words tend to be longer and while they can be used to describe common activities, they're more often used in formal and legal writing.

Pronunciation is a different matter, but here, too, European languages have an edge, as the sounds are similar, whereas Asian languages sound very different to European languages, making pronunciation substantially harder.

[Komatteru]

I live in Finland, and our language has no relation to English. We have some Swedish words, but that's it. Here everyone studies English at least 7 years at school, and over than half 10 years or more. I think it's something about our schools system, which is admired around the World.

But I think it has as much to do with popular culture. See, we have no popular culture of our own, but it's all American instead. We listen to music and watch TV mostly in English. We rarely dub any movies, only some children's animation. English is the language of our popular culture, unlike in Japan or China, where they produce masses of entertainment in their own languages. They don't really have to import foreign popular culture, like we have to.

[Jacob Orlove]

On a similar note, I have heard Italians complain that they have a much harder time learning English, precisely because they DO dub so many TV shows and movies and such.

[Toad]

In France pupils start studying English at 11, for at least 7 mandatory years. After these 7 years you can keep studying it if you want through all your degrees. I've personnaly studied English for 12 years at school, and I use it on a daily basis at work. At 13 you have to start studying a second foreign language - Spanish, German or Italian most of the time -, usually for 5 years. You can also pick either Latin or ancient Greek as optionnal languages. At 15 you can pick a third language.

All the movies on TV are dubbed, and we actually have laws which aim at minimizing the use of foreign languages when It's not needed. A lot of words and adds are translated when ported into French.

[Anusien]

I find it odd that the French are so big on learning other languages, when they're very anal about keeping French pure.  Is it to prevent foreigners from having to use the language?  Or is just practical Frenchies who are at odds with the conservatives?

[Kowal]

It probably has more to do with the fact that French is actually a very weakening language in comparison to the other big languages..  Without that sort of protection, it might well die out.

[Toad]

It is just a question of french pride, nothing more. Most of the french people actually know how to speak english fairly well, but a lot would refuse to do so if asked to. I've already seen a lot of guys in bars or restaurants who faint not understanding english with tourists. It's funny 

It's not a question of weakness since french is still heavily spoken in the World, especially in Africa. English, spanish or others being strong hardly matters since in a few years Chinese and Arabic will probably become the international languages anyways. French is still the official international language One of the reasons it is left behind english is because french is a fairly difficult language to learn while english is very easy. English's grammar and vocabulary are poorer than the french's, and that helped a lot when picking an international language too.

[jpmeyer]

You probably got taught this in your Japanese classes, but a big difference between Europe and Japan is that Japanese English classes are big on things like grammar and mechanics, so the people might "know" English but they can't really use it.  On the other hand, when I went to gymnasium in Germany, I noticed that the students were learning English in ways that made it more applicable, like by writing emails to penpals and having conversations in class.

[Matt]

English's grammar and vocabulary are poorer than the french's, and that helped a lot when picking an international language too.

Wait, what? I was led to believe English had possibly the richest vocabulary of any language, due to the Norman invasion (where we got French and Latin words to replicate the Old English ones already in use - "canine" (from Latin canis) and "hound" (german: Hund) or how we use the R-words "regal, royalty" to describe kings (from the german König), for example).

[Komatteru]

You probably got taught this in your Japanese classes, but a big difference between Europe and Japan is that Japanese English classes are big on things like grammar and mechanics, so the people might "know" English but they can't really use it.

They seem bigger on the word themselves actually.  For instance, when I'm talking to someone in Japanese, and they use a word I don't know, about 75% of the time they can tell me the English meaning of the word.  They couldn't construct the sentence they just said in English, but they can tell me the noun or adjective they just used in English.  That is pretty impressive.

For instance, when I was talking with this cab driver, he asked if I climbed to the top of Takayama this weekend, but I didn't know the word for climb.  He was able to tell me instantly "climb" and we proceeded with the conversation.

They do, however, often have trouble pronouncing words properly.  If you want to be entertained, you should listen to one of them try to say "parallel."  It's pretty amusing.

[Eddie]

English's grammar and vocabulary are poorer than the french's, and that helped a lot when picking an international language too.

Wait, what? I was led to believe English had possibly the richest vocabulary of any language, due to the Norman invasion (where we got French and Latin words to replicate the Old English ones already in use - "canine" (from Latin canis) and "hound" (german: Hund) or how we use the R-words "regal, royalty" to describe kings (from the german König), for example).

You are correct. He's just saying that because he's French.

[Bram]

To our European Members

Heh, when you said 'members', I thought of something different altogther  
Sort of fitting, then, that this thread happens to be about language.

Well, I don't know about all that balderdash* Limbo was spewing about the need to adapt and an education system geared toward English, but I am acutely aware of the reason for my supposed proficiency in your language:



Megatron was my English teacher, yo! And I'm not kidding, either. I used to watch that cartoon like it was my job when I was a kid (about 8 years old I guess). It aired exclusively on Sky Channel here, which was (is?) a British network. Who else remembers big-nosed presenter Andy and his wacky seal puppet co-host? Obviously, there were no subtitles so I was forced to more or less extrapolate what was said. I don't remember it being difficult at all, though, and I was leading English-language fiction way before I ever got my first English lesson in school (at about age 12). Suffice to say, that never presented me with any problems. So concluding, I think I can vouch for the absence of dubbed TV shows as an influential factor. Heck, we shouldn't even subtitle the damn things!

It paid off for me. One of the reasons I was hired for my current PhD-position was my command of your language. It may have even given me the edge over the competition. If only my research would be regading the construction of big-ass r-o-b-o-t-s...that would have been the ultimate irony.

Also:

Most of the french people actually know how to speak english fairly well, but a lot would refuse to do so if asked to. I've already seen a lot of guys in bars or restaurants who faint not understanding english with tourists. It's funny

Yes, I can vouch for that. And no, it's not funny. I've taken to responding to French tourists similarly ("Je ne parle pas Francais. Je ne parle pas Anglais. And NO, I DON'T know where the nearest cannabis coffee shop is.") I must say that it's not as bad in Paris as it is (or at least, used to be) in the countryside.


* = I like to inject British archaicisms into online conversations once in a while.

[EDIT] Why in the name of God do we have a filter that changes 'r-o-b-o-t' to 'big artefact'?
 

[Jacob Orlove]

Because people decided to call the big artifacts in Control Slaver "Roobots" (as in, "I would run 2 Mindslavers, but then I'd have 5 Roobots, and I prefer 4.")

I decided that was stupid, hence the filter.

[Bram]

I think it's interesting how every time I invoke the Lord, Jacob answers. Sure, it *could* be coincidental (or megalomaniacal), but I suspect something different...

But let's not get carried away.

[Machinus]

From my knowledge of languages, I think English has one of the most confusing and complicated structures regarding syntax, spelling, conjugation and pronunciation. The rich vocabulary of American English and its ability to evolve quickly have made it anything but "easy" to learn. I don't understand how anyone who has an aged an ordered language as their first could think it simple to learn English.

[combo_dude]

From my knowledge of languages, I think English has one of the most confusing and complicated structures regarding syntax, spelling, conjugation and pronunciation. The rich vocabulary of American English and its ability to evolve quickly have made it anything but "easy" to learn. I don't understand how anyone who has an aged an ordered language as their first could think it simple to learn English.

Indeed - English is one of the few languages that is almost entirely non-inflective, which in principle makes it more confusing rather than less; for instance, in Latin (which is where I get most of my examples, since I'm studying Classics at the moment), the ablative case, whilst shown in other languages to be expendable, has such a huge variety of meanings, yet it is mostly semantics that change our interpretation of the sentence - genuinely ambiguous usages are surprisingly rare, especially since most authors will use a preposition or some other modifier in the case of confusion.

In addition, whilst many languages have rigid pronunciation rules - Latin emphasises either the penultimate or antepenultimate syllable, and has very few variations of pronunciation, and French (I think) usually emphasises the first syllable of a word - English not only has very few pronunciation "rules" governing it, but it even has words that can completely change meaning according to their pronunciation (for example, "project"). Conclusion: getting any sort of certainty of pronunciation is very difficult to obtain, especially if you aren't being taught by a native English speaker. Incidentally, JD - is there a great number of native English speakers who teach English in Japan, or is it mainly native Japanese speakers whose English is good (or even fluent)?

Lastly (and this is something I'm very unsure about), although I haven't heard many people speak Japanese, and I don't understand the various Oriental languages, from listening to Chinese people speak their native Cantonese, I would guess that this employs a pitch accent of some sort (as in, rather than emphasising certain syllables more than others, as English does, accents affect the pitch of the word expressed - this can get quite confusing in languages like Ancient Greek, where there is often a metrical stress pattern as well as a changing pitch, but they are mostly independent of each other), rather than the stress accent that we use, along with most European languages - I think that one of the Scandanavian languages uses a pitch accent (Norwegian?), but that's about it. This is important with pronunciation because it is a very different way of pronouncing different syllables in different ways; accordingly this makes people struggle with fluency, and from there they struggle with furthering their grasp of the language, because they don't get a "feel" for how it works.

Adam

[Pyromaniac]

It is just a question of french pride, nothing more. Most of the french people actually know how to speak english fairly well, but a lot would refuse to do so if asked to. I've already seen a lot of guys in bars or restaurants who faint not understanding english with tourists. It's funny 

This by the way, is reason #1 why I hate French people in general. Naturally, there are exceptions, like Toad() and Britanny for instance, but it's distinctly NOT funny when you're the tourist. Imagine if you were to come to Holland and we'd only talk Dutch right in front of you, even though we all know English, you wouldn't understand a word of what we're saying to you...I'm sorry, but that attitude is well..I dunno, not done I'd say

[Dozer]

Speaking for the Germans, we start learning English in fifth grade (sometimes earlier), and if you finish the aforementioned "Gymnasium" (that's 12 or 13 years of school), you'll have had English lessons for eight or nine years straight. That's a lot of time to learn it. On top of that, many German schools have exchange programmes* with English-speaking schools. I have been to London and Tacoma (Washington) myself, and that of course helps.

Here in Germany, you'll find that everybody has a basic grasp of English, but the higher you go in the social standings, the better it gets. In seventh grade, we pick up a second language, usually Latin or French. French is far more popular, although for many university subject, you actually need a Latin qualification (everything pertaining History, Religion/ Theology, Medicine and most of the language subjects).

TV isn't something where we can learn English from. Megatron could never have been my English teacher, because we only have German language TV, save BBC & CNN. For two years, I listened to BFBS, the British Forces Broadcasting Station, which was the only available English radio program**. I've also read countless books in English, mostly Terry Pratchett, who really teaches colloquialisms and subtle, textual meanings. And of course, I spent half a year in Australia not too long ago.

And last but not least, I suspect that

Dozer

*Like Bram said, sometimes the more archaic British is simply and astoundingly superior.
**Sometimes, not so much.

P.S.:

[EDIT] Why in the name of God do we have a filter that changes 'r-o-b-o-t' to 'big artefact'?

I really hope the filter changes it to "big artifacts". Or is it set up to make the people look dumb regardless?

[Matt]

French is far more popular, although for many university subject, you actually need a Latin qualification (everything pertaining History, Religion/ Theology, Medicine and most of the language subjects).

That's funny, because English speakers generally don't need to bother with that - we already have words like aquarium and aquatic, so learning aqueous humor isn't too hard.

[BigMac]

Speaking completely for myself i have had nine years of English education as well as lots of viewing time on TV. Personally i hate to learn words so all the words i know i either have read somewhere or have heard somewhere on TV. Grammarwise i am probably not that strong but hearing lots of a language will teach you some thing. Countries where are programs have a dubbed version will probably not have the advantage of hearing the language a lot. And for me the hearing was the learning experience.

As for my country (I am dutch), as others have stated allready, we are a small country. We will have more people actually speaking dutch as Limbo led us to believe as we have settlers all over the world and some have kept their heritage lingo wise. Another thing a lot of people do not know is that Dutch almost was the native tongue for the US. English was voted the lingo of choice by one vote in parliament or senate or whatever is used for that.

On a sidenote, Dutch seems to be very difficult to master for foreigners. Even Germans, who have a language very much alike Dutch have difficulties with really mastering it. They will probably understand it reasonably well but will not be able to talk it. This is because we seem to have some really strange sounds in our language. All of those sounds can be found in other languages, but not all in one language. perhaps that is why Dutch people tend to learn other languages more quickly. On the other hand you have languages with very few sounds but very intensive intonations, like Asian languages. The sounds can be mastered, the difficulties for us foreigners seems to lie in all the different intonations of different sounds. For them the diversity of sounds seems to be the biggest problem.

Concluding, there are several things that can make it difficult to master a language. Sound, intonation and dubbing all seem to affect this learning process for both better and worse. This by the way has nothing to do with writing in a language. Writing well is the difficulty there.

[Matt]

We also almots had the turkey for our national bird.

[Jacob Orlove]

Not to mention almost having the Union Jack as our national flag.

[Komatteru]

Another thing a lot of people do not know is that Dutch almost was the native tongue for the US. English was voted the lingo of choice by one vote in parliament or senate or whatever is used for that.

I knew it was a brand of German that was almost the official language, but I was not aware that it was Dutch.

[Sylvester]

Quebec. Private school (so English classes from kindergarten onward instead of 4th grade) + bilingual friends + lots of trips when I was a kid But really, the intarweb and cable TV seem to have triggered a much higher progression rate, starting when i was ~14yo. What really has me wondering is how people who live in Quebec (and some in Ontario Ottawa) can speak English so badly. FWIW, I believe that Quebecois uses many more sounds than French French, which might explain why Quebecois usually have a less bad accent than Frenchies :p

While we're bashing on Frenchies: Why the h*ll do people think that a Quebecois accent == someone speaking in *English*? I can see how they could not understand at first, but concluding that I'm speaking in English!?!

[dandan]

Another thing a lot of people do not know is that Dutch almost was the native tongue for the US. English was voted the lingo of choice by one vote in parliament or senate or whatever is used for that.

I knew it was a brand of German that was almost the official language, but I was not aware that it was Dutch.

Does that mean that you Yanks should be using English as your language?