The Mountains Win Again

[Myriad Games]

We've tried True Believer and Orim's Chant. WW is too much for the current builds of the deck to handle, but Orim's Chant is an option.

[T00L]

Believe me TMWA doesn't need more dragon hate

Seriously though the hide portion of hide and seek seems strong it answers the same threats as disenchant and answers DSC

[Myriad Games]

Yep, we're testing Hide now and seeing as the only two T-Shirt challenges I lost yesterday were to The Big Man, it's a worthwhile consideration.

[twault]

Why Seal over Disenchant?

I suppose because once Seal is in play, then it can't be countered like Disenchant, but it just seems like you are giving up too much information by putting Seal out, and it's vulnerable to bounce spells and Naturalize.

I'd rather take the chance and let my opponent guess whether I have something to stop his threat, but that's just me.

Is there another advantage that I'm not seeing?

[Harlequin]

The needs speed, sitting around on 2 open mana just incase they cast something is not good for this deck.  You play the seal when you have spare mana and be done with it manawise.

[twault]

Well, I wouldn't leave the 2 mana open. I'd play something else, until I had to deal with a threat.

[urza_insane]

Why Seal over Disenchant?

Seal gets around a flipped Erayo, Sphere of Resistance, and Chalice at 2 (if in played). It is also fetchable via Enlightened Tutor. It is rare that the information you give your opponent by playing Seal will help them in any significant way. The fact that it can be hit with Naturalize isn't a good argument since few opponents will be playing Disenchant effects against a deck with very few targets (this one). If they bounce it you can just play it again without much problem.

On another note, what were your results with Hide? I like playing:
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Hide/Seek

Have you been replacing the Seals as well?

[Mantis]

Seal over Disenchant is for the reasons mentioned above, but the main reason would be that an Oath of Druids will rarely be played without counterbackup if the opponent knows you play Disenchant. Having the Seal means they will have to find a second Oath before they can go off, giving you a huge amount of time to beat down. Time Walk + Oath is another reason, you don't want to be having to keep 2 mana open all the time.

[Myriad Games]

Seal over Disenchant because it can be tutored for and is less likely to be Duressed away. Against Oath & Dragon, they'll have to spend time finding an answer (bounce, Stifle, etc) and all those answers are REB-able. Kami of Ancient Law is also good in this regard, since it cannot be Duressed and provides pressure while serving as a deterrant.

Hide was decidedly underwhelming in testing due to mana cost requirements.

[twault]

I see now. While Seal isn't foolproof, it's probably still more likely to resolve than a Disenchant. Plus, it's more tempo-friendly.

[Myriad Games]

Jotun Grunt is amazing for this deck as it helps to stabilize the creature base and provide disruption along with a faster clock. Add in the fact that it just makes sense that a giant is from the Mountains and you've got an excellent addition to the deck. I recommend all future builds run 3-4 of them. Also of note for grammarians: it's pronounced "yOten".

[Scoops666]

I concur on the Grunt being amazing. He combines 2 awsome elements- Solid Finisher and GY hate, to make 1 of the most efficient creatures to come out in a while. Not including him is a mistake.

[Implacable]

I concur on the Grunt being aazing. He combines 2 awsome elements- Solid Finisher and GY hate, to make 1 of the most efficient creatures to come out in a while. Not including him is a mistake.

What were they thinking when they made him?  I know that there was a lot of negative commentary about him on these very forums when he came out, but that was before the general revelation of different targets for the CU.  They priced him like his disruption was a disadvantage!  He should be played in every aggro deck that runs white.

[Seregrauko]

Hi Drainers!

Ive been following this thread for some days now.. Havnt got the time to read it all since im quite busy, sorry about posting before thats done! Im printing the entire topic now so I can read it on occation.

My question to all of you is:

Since you "only" utilize the white spells Disenchant and StoP, could you perhaps splash for a 3rd color??

I know its dangerous, but with fetch, power and duals it should be possible to make a competitive 3 color aggrocontrol, dont you agree??

My first thought is BLACK! Cards like Duress, Cabal Therapy, yardhate with a body, tutor(s), Negators and maybe Chains of Mephistopheles (a card I think has a lot of potential). And other misc cards.

Another thought is simply splashing a R/G beats/metahate (call it whatever) with white for StoP!

Im simply curious, Im quite the newb on vintage deckbuilding, but I love aggro and would like to see more decks of this kind getting developed..

Im sure you guys have allready thought these ideas through. But lemme know why it wont work then

Lars Petersen, Kosovo.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Am I the only one not seeing Genju red pull its weight? It seems to require too much mana in a land-light deck. My current version right now has these changes from myriadgames' decklist:

SB swap:-3 Pyroblast <--> 1 Goblin Welder 1 Goblin Vandal 1 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Tormod's Crypt -1 Genju of the Spires +3 Jotun Grunt

Jotun Grunt is a powerhouse. This deck needs a beater, and it's much better than something like Jackal Pup.

Seregrauko: I think a third color would seriously damage consistency, more than you think.

[Eliminator]

I played The Mountains Win Again in the Vintage master RThomas won, and I piloted the deck to 10th place at 4-1-1 due to an ill-advised draw in round 6, despite me being a T1 newbie. This is the deck I played:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Lands
        1 Mountain
        1 Plains
        4 Plateau
        2 Wooded Foothills
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        1 Windswept Heath
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Mishra's Factory
// Other Mana
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
// Creatures
        4 Goblin Vandal
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Hearth Kami
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        1 Genju of the Spires
// Spells
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Lightning Bolt
        1 Disenchant
        2 Seal of Cleansing
        2 Pyrostatic Pillar
        3 Tormod's Crypt
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Magma Jet
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Pyroblast
SB:  1 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB:  1 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  1 Null Rod
SB:  1 Sacred Ground
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  3 Disenchant

I beat Affinity, Ichorid, and Workshop Aggro, and TMWA's greatest asset is the immense amount of hate. I didn't play Jotun Grunt because I didn't know how to fit in in, and I didn't have the foresight to play Hide instead of Dis-E. Ironically, I found myself fetching for a basic mountain and a basic plains first due to wasteland fear. Pyrostatic Pillar and Genju weren't hot for me, and I don't get the random 1 of Null Rod and Sacred Ground. The only things I don't like about the deck is that it has no way to generate card advantage, it relies on winning attrition wars. Also, the deck doesn't get raped by Kataki or Flux. I like Goblin Welder as a defensive measure because you can weld out an offensive artifact with a mox, and then kill the mox again. T1T beat me with Darksteel Colossus both times because I wasn't playing Hide and I couldn't get STP or Welder out.

[df8251]

would you be insulted if i took TMWA to the upcoming Myriad Games tournament? i have been playtesting it on MWS for so long, i want to try it out. 

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

If your asking if Dan would be insulted if you played the deck he designed at his store, I'm pretty sure that he happy as a clam.

[Yamin]

Believe me TMWA doesn't need more dragon hate

Fo serious, this is an ass matchup for me.  I hate you Dan, I hate your balls for making TMWA! aka Dragonhate.dec.

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, enough. Discussion should be on-topic. Everything else belongs in PMs or other forums.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Alright, RThomas, Eliminator and myself, regulars on Magic-League (admittedly not the best place for Vintage), have somewhat settled on this as the build we're testing:

//NAME: The Mountains Win Again
// Lands
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
// Other Mana
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
// Creatures
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
//Tech
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hide // Seek
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Hide // Seek
SB: 4 Duress

Jotun Grunt has mostly replaced Tormod's Crypt in terms of grave hate. We also added a small black splash for Duress, to fight against combo and to replace dead cards against things like Fish. Sorry for posting the full decklist, but I thought this was a significant enough change.

[Tobi]

We also added a small black splash for Duress, to fight against combo and to replace dead cards against things like Fish. Sorry for posting the full decklist, but I thought this was a significant enough change.

I understand the Badlands in the deck to be good in conjunction with Hide//Seek, but against Fish it does not seem to be a good idea to board in Duress with only one nonbasic land providing black mana.

The configuration of fetchlands and basics/duals gets a lot weaker, with only 2 fetches for the Plains and 3 fetches for Badlands. I suggest cutting the Plains for an additional mountain and play 4 Wooded Foothills and 2 Bloodstained Mire.
Mox Jet should also be considered.

I was experimenting with a similar approach, but taking more advantage of Hide//Seek maindeck, playing 4 of them. They replaced Swords to Plowshares basically, since they do what normally Swords do, remove DSC. Of course Swords have a wider range of uses, but so does Hide//Seek. Especially against Oath Hide//Seek seems to be better than Swords. Also note it's use against Chalice.

Joetun Grunt is the beats this deck needed. Very strong.

[Franz Ferdinand]

We also added a small black splash for Duress, to fight against combo and to replace dead cards against things like Fish. Sorry for posting the full decklist, but I thought this was a significant enough change.

I understand the Badlands in the deck to be good in conjunction with Hide//Seek, but against Fish it does not seem to be a good idea to board in Duress with only one nonbasic land providing black mana.

The configuration of fetchlands and basics/duals gets a lot weaker, with only 2 fetches for the Plains and 3 fetches for Badlands. I suggest cutting the Plains for an additional mountain and play 4 Wooded Foothills and 2 Bloodstained Mire.
Mox Jet should also be considered.

Good point about the sole Badlands. I actually hadn't even thought about it with Hide//Seek. I'll take those suggestions into consideration.

[Seregrauko]

Hi Drainers!

Nice to see that somebody believes in a black splash.. Ill try it out too when I get the chance..

I was wondering. Since the deck has NO draw and only some inferior "card management" in Magma Jet and Enlightened Tutor. Couldn't you add a Demonic Tutor for some extra consistency?? I know its B1 for picking a card. But since you pretty much depend on what you draw in this deck it would be nice with the tutor.. Any comments??

As for the Grim Lavamancer (I LOVE him!!), how is he working with Jotun Grunt?? As I wrote I havnt had the time to play the deck. And my meta is not really the typical vintage meta. So therefore Im asking you guys. But I could imagine that youre gonna eat yup your own graveyard when the grunt has finished up most of your opponents??
Perhaps thats just due to my slow meta where theres not really an abundance of cards in the yard.


Just some thoughts. I like the idea of black splash as well.. Looking forward to testing!

LP

[Franz Ferdinand]

Demonic Tutor seems like a waste. It wastes a turn, because you are not likely to have more than 3 mana sources. Magma Jet and Enlightened Tutor have worked for me so far, as your card quality is generally the same for most of the cards in the deck.

By the way, I've done -1 Plains -1 Flooded Strand -1 Windswept Heath +1 Badlands +2 Bloodstained Mire.

Also, I'm debating the merits of Darkblast, with this higher splash. It powers up Grimmy and Jotun as well as takes out nuisance X/1s.

[df8251]

okay, instead of creating a three color mountains deck i decided to remove white and add that splash of black that has been being discussed. i replaced many of the white elements with similar black spells, like StP was replaced with Diabolic Edict [for DSC removal], Jotun Grunt with Phyrexian Negator [only two copies], Hearth Kamis were removed by Dark Confidant [works very well i should say], Tormod's Crypts with Planar Voids [works out muchos better], and of course Plateaus with Badlands.

it still runs the simple 4 Mountains idea, however i threw in a random Swamp in exchange for a Wasteland. here is the list i thought up and i have been running on MWS for a little while now. So far only two losses [lost two games in best 2/3 versus Oath]. the only problem i have found is the lack of enchantment removal, however that has been replaced by Duress, so Oath isnt too terribly hard. [i won once versus another Oath deck when i pulled duress and an edict].

Deck [61]:

Mana Base [25, a little too many IMO]:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
4 Mountains
4 Badlands
3 Wasteland [only three copies]
3 Mishra's Factory [three is plenty, IMO]
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring (yes, no?)

Creatures [similar idea, artifact destruction, just with a little black, 16 total]:

4 Goblin Vandal
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman [Vandals are enough, and besides, these suck up too much mana.]

Beat Shit:
2 Phyrexian Negator [yes thing is a beast, but there is a possiblity that it will eat up your entire board.]
2 Genju of The Spires [it seemed like it couldnt be left out, you know?]

Disruption:
4 Duress [good replacement due to the lack of enchantment removal]
4 Diabolic Edict [replacement for Swords]
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast [REB all the way]
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Misc Good Stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Planar Void [better replacement towards Crypt]
2 Goblin Welder [always good for defense versus DSC and 7/10]
1 Phyrexian Negator [for minimal creature decks where not much damage is dealt to it]
2 Red Elemental Blast [yes, only two.]
1 Pyrostatic Pillar [why not toss another copy in for storm-kill decks?]
3 Cabal Therapy [this card reminds me a little of Go-Fish]
2 Null Rod [there would be more if i owned more copies of it]

i am thinking about Darkblast, it seems like a great solution to Welders and other obnoxious guys that come wondering about.

the sideboard is a little weak, i know. but to tell you the truth i dont really know what to plan for, i am going to start my own thread on this in the Noob Improvement Forum, so go on over there if you can help in anything at all.

but yeah, this is my random variation i decided to make of TMWA, does this help you? i highly doubt it, but why not read another kids version of it, and hey, you just may see it on the 19th at Myriad Games' tourny. btw, i love this deck very much, its most fun to play and at the same time it can hold its own in a competative match, more likely than not coming out in a victory.

-dan

[orgcandman]

For those people weakening the mana base to add black:

Know that in a wasteland heavy metagame you will lose. A lot more than the r/w version might lose (actually, it could probably even pull out those games). This deck works by playing very aggressive control. You MUST establish your dominance early, and win in the midgame. If you're not doing that with this deck, you'll probably be on the losing side often.

TMWA isn't meant to go turn for turn with Control Slaver, Gifts, Stax, or others. If it does, the Card Advantage that those decks generate will overwhelm you, and you'll lose. We have well over 20 pages of discussion on this on our team boards to back us up.

Look at the cards black brings to the table:

- Duress, Demonic, edict, and confidant.

These cards are much more geared towards getting your deck to the mid-late game, a place TMWA doesn't want to be unless it has a good clock on the board. It wants to use disenchants and swords to reset the opponent to the early game. Think about it, your opponent gets reduced to 1 land, no moxen, and only their thirst in hand. Sounds like a weak early game to me.

Duress can help accomplish this, but duress is a hand attacking piece. TMWA doesn't focus on attacking that resource. It wants to answer on-board threats. It wants to answer those threats quickly. It wants to answer them efficiently.

Adding black is the wrong way to go. In fact, I'd add green before I added black, and we've even tested r/g and r/w/g.
Likewise, cutting white is the wrong way to go.

The black splash for hide//seek might NOT be a bad idea though. We have some test results for a build with it, and they seem pretty good. That's about all I can say on that. Definately going more to black than that is a little crazy.

-Aaron

[Seregrauko]

Im more convinced that I was in the begging. BUT! As Aaron claims in the end of his reply.. Hide/Seek would be worth splashing black for in my oppinion. It seems like a very powerful card. And it grants you the chance to see what your adversary is playing

I understand that Demonic is a bad card to choose. This came to my mind after I poted the reply earlier on. And as you folks have been confirming. Its simply to slow.

But if you want to take advantage of Seek then you have to splash black. And the question is whether or not it will fuckup the mana base.. When your facing Wastelands at least.

Im definently gonna try out splashing black for Hide/Seek. And Darkblast could be a nice card too.. But then we have the problem again Not too many blacks..

More comments on splashing black??

Lars Petersen

[Sysane]

I've been using a deck that's loosely based on TMWA that runs black. The card choices are pretty straight forward. I've been meeting with mild success but the deck is still in its developmental stages. Here's the current deck list I've been running:   

 creatures: 13
x4 dark confidant
x3 kitaki, war's wage
x3 goblin vandal
x3 gorilla shaman

other spells: 24
x4 magma jet
x3 duress
x3 swords to plowshares
x3 planar void 
x2 hide/seek
x2 seal of cleansing
x1 vampiric tutor
x1 enlightened tutor
x1 rack and ruin
x1 hymn to tourach
x1 demonic tutor 
x1 imperial seal

artifacts:7
x1 lotus petal 
x1 mox jet
x1 mox pearl
x1 mox ruby
x1 black lotus
x2 null rod

lands: 17
x4 bloodstained mire
x3 wasteland
x2 scrubland
x2 plateau
x2 badlands
x1 stripmine
x1 mountain
x1 swamp
x1 plain

side board: 15
x2 pithing needle
x3 sacred ground
x3 pryroclastic pillar
x3 diabolic edict
x4 lightning bolt

[Myriad Games]

Thanks everyone for the interest and comments. I'd certainly be happy for anyone to play TMWA at any event they like.  I have a great deal of fun with the deck and love to see others enjoy the deck as well. Regarding the black replacement or splash: it improves matchups where the R/W builds are weak while weakening currently strong matchups. Having a solid mana base will be more important in Wasteland heavy metagames while in Combo / Gifts / CS heavy metagames, having Hide/Seek as a silver bullet would certainly be worth splashing black. Whatever the case, savvy Mountains players will not overlook the potency of Jotun Grunt. Keep the discussion going and let us know how you place at events with various versions of Mountains Win Again!