Power Level Errata: They're removing it!

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I don't think that the new wording for time vault matches the original intent of the card.  "Time vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn."  This phrase in no way implies that time vault can't be twiddled, or voltaic keyed, or whatever (In fact because of the first part of the sentence I think it implies the opposite, which is that although it doesn't untap during the untap phase and you can skip a turn to untap it other methods will work as well).  If twiddle wasn't supposed to work on it (they were both printed in Alpha) I think that there would have been reminder text explaining that or it might have been more clear.

Wizards has also clearly not removed the power level errata on the card as they said they would, considering that before it was given the time counter errata it was banned, and then it was unbanned after the errata.  This new errata maintains the same power level errata (can't be untapped with other stuff) as all of the previous time counter ones, except with different wording.

Oh, and this still screws up the Fullisade combo as well, which even though they said wasn't power level errata, it still was, because it basically changed the power level of the card to render it unplayable, regardless of why they did it.  They obviously knew what was going to happen as a result.

wizards just admitted that they have no integrity.

[Machinus]

I'm sure he's very much alive, but it doesn't reduce his mythical status. He's the only one who has anything important to say about intent and he could probably not care less about this issue.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Well, on the positive side, all this bullshit is over with.  Errata have been issued, cards have been changed, and we can stop worrying about what might get changed next, because it's all done with, at least for a while.

[Harkius]

Ha ha. The debate rages on.

The fact of the matter is that none of us can really be certain what the original intent was, including Wizads. In all probability Dr. Garfield doesn't even remember what his intention was. Remember the Time Walk anecdote.

Face it: No one knows what the original intent was. This could very well be the removal of power level errata. It could also be another smokescreen. The fact is that no one knows. We never will. We do know that the current wording is intended to remove the possibility of untapping this bad boy without skipping a turn. End of story.

Harkius

[Titanium Dragon]

Wow. I actually suggested that errata for [CARD]Time Vault[/CARD]. Not that I'm taking credit for it, by any means - I'm fairly certain it was arrived at independently, and mine wasn't worded the same. But it seemed like the logical way to reconcile the card with the text without making another piece of power.

On the ironic side, Unlimited Time Vault went from $100 to $150 over the weekend, despite the fact that the new version still doesn't allow for the infinite untaps, and still doesn't allow for shenanigans which give you extra turns.

Basalt Monolith, though, now does combo with Power Artifact for infinite mana - and it is legacy legal.

Intuition indeed had "Target opponent" readded to the card, which I think makes it worse. Goblin Snowman has been... uh... I can't see its errata, honestly. It doesn't seem to have had any change at all. The spells with "if it is played from your hand" have been returned to their original wording.

Celestial Dawn has been made worse by making it so [CARD]Dark Ritual[/CARD] sucks under it, as do similar non-land mana producers. Ouch.

Drop of honey doesn't target anymore. Balance had its order fixed.

On the downside, it seems the new gatherer has had its image files messed up.

Waylay and Lotus Vale were not re-errataed, as I suspected. Nor were the Parallax cards and Debt of Loyalty.

This is from another site:

Ok, so Time Vault doesn't work with Flame Fusilade anymore... But now it works with Mizzium Transreliquat. How long until that gets broken wide open?

Comical. Yes, now for two cards and a mere 3 mana a turn, you can gain an infinite number of turns. Okay, that might be a teensy bit broken. However, I don't think the original card had any way of preventing that, so I think its on the up-and-up. Not to mention [CARD]Mizzium Transreliquat[/CARD] is pretty terrible otherwise.

Brainstorm's errata doesn't make a difference, I don't know what Gorilla Shaman's old text was but it seems to match the written fine, Flash Foliage was errataed to prevent a block during the declare attackers step, and I'm not sure what they changed about Ashen Ghoul other than the type line. And Soul Burn... uh, I have no idea how that oracle text would work.

Anyway, I think the biggest change is Basalt Monolith. Does anyone think that Monolith - Power Artifact is useful? Or Transreliquat - Time Vault?

[diopter]

Original Time Vault text has no time counters; new Time Vault errata has no counters.
Original Time Vault text says "to untap, you must skip a turn;" new Time Vault errata says the same thing in modern Magic rules text vocabulary by forcing you to skip a turn at every untap.

This errata was golden.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Original Time Vault text says "to untap, you must skip a turn;"

This is taken out of context.  On the whole card the actual sentence says "Time Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn."  The part about the untap phase implies that that is the ONLY time it doesn't untap normally, thus although one could skip a turn to untap it one could twiddle it, also.

[diopter]

Original Time Vault text says "to untap, you must skip a turn;"

This is taken out of context. On the whole card the actual sentence says "Time Vault doesn't untap normally during untap phase; to untap it, you must skip a turn." The part about the untap phase implies that that is the ONLY time it doesn't untap normally, thus although one could skip a turn to untap it one could twiddle it, also.

You're right. My bad - those two segments of rules text are linked by the semicolon.

I still like this errata for its elegance. But, your point does remind me that the errata is not perfect, and it can never be because modern Magic rules text makes that impossible.

[Juggernaut GO]

yeah, looks like it's my turn to break time vault now...

[Pave]

it seemed like the logical way to reconcile the card with the text without making another piece of power

In other words, we have a new (funkier) piece of power errata.  We have the exact opposite of what we were promised.

Even if the errata is 'better' in some respect (though I can barely see it), the intervention by Wizards here is even worse than the errata 'from nowhere', because it runs directly counter to what was promised, the removal of, not the introduction of new, power errata.

[Juggernaut GO]

your looking at it the wrong way.  the only power level erratta issued to time vault was the adding of time counters.  That was removed, and the card was erratta'd to work exactly as printed.  The line "you must skip a turn"  to untap time vault means exactly that, no way to cheat it, this erratta puts away any degenerate combo's with voltaic key, or flame fusilade.

[dandan]

Can anyone help out lazybones Dandan and tell us exactly what the relevant changes are?
(Thanks to Titanium Dragon, are there any more changes?)

I guess I won't have to explain the Enchantress/Drop of Honey 'combo' using furry fish in stealth bombers anymore 

[Pave]

The line "you must skip a turn" to untap time vault means exactly that, no way to cheat it

Then why can I untap my Mana Vault using Twiddle when Mana Vault, too, originally reads: "to untap it, you must pay 4 mana"?

[CF]

Wizards never said they would change the wording on Time Vault for power reasons. This is what was said:

"In the meantime, here are the most prominent cards Monday's Oracle update will attempt to restore to their printed wording (though note that some of the cards on this list didn't originally get the errata for power reasons)"

That some took this as YAY TIME VAULT FUSSILADE IS BROKEN AGAIN is their problem. You got ahead of yourselves. Stop whining.

Edit: Heh. Funny. True Believer is now a Meddling Mage for Intuition as well. I assumed this was what they would change.

--
Chris

[yespuhyren]

Well, I really do believe that this is the wording closest to how the original card was meant to be played.  I give them much credit for restoring the card, though they by no means made it playable outside of some ridiculous 4/5 card combos to get you infinite turns.  And yes, those 4/5 card combos are probably harder to pull off than Panoptic Mirror/Time Walk.

[Norm4eva]

You know what sucks?
While I was at the card store the other day, for a brief time both Time Vault AND Waylay, to mention a few cards, had their original wording as their Oracle wording.  Based on that I bought 4 Waylay.  Now suddenly they have the 'combat' errata again.  I am sad and wondering whyTF they'd do it that way.

[CF]

You know what sucks?
While I was at the card store the other day, for a brief time both Time Vault AND Waylay, to mention a few cards, had their original wording as their Oracle wording.  Based on that I bought 4 Waylay.  Now suddenly they have the 'combat' errata again.  I am sad and wondering whyTF they'd do it that way.

Gatherer and wizards autocard had "printed text" showing as default yesterday. The oracle text still had the old versions. It was a little confusing that "printed text" was suddenly default on the autocard, but you could still choose oracle and get answers.

--
Chris

[Cross]

isn't waylay only like 10 cents a piece?

[hazard]

Oracle text for Intuition:

Search your library for any three cards and reveal them. Target opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

Official Rulings:

10/4/2004 It does not target the opponent. You choose an opponent during resolution.

So which of these applies?  Or am I slow and they both apply?

[Yare]

Edit: This is in reference to the above post.

Note the date on the errata.  They're explanations are still messed up I believe.  Only the Oracle text matters.  So, you must name a legal target when you play the spell and that spell must be legal when it resolves (meaning, True Believer didn't somehow come into play between the time of playing and resolution).

[Matt]

Allow me to clear this up for you. The current wordings of both Mana Vault and Time Vault are totally consistent. You might not know this if you are like most Vintage players and like to pimp out your decks with Beta cards, because if that's all you're looking at then sure, you would see a problem, since they both say "To untap it, you must..." HOWEVER there is a crucial fact you're missing: Mana Vault has been reprinted more recently. Wizards gives priority to the most recent printing of a card, because it tends to be the most common (there are more UNL vaults than Beta, and more 4th than UNL). This is why Basalt Monolith now matches its printed wording while Legends Relic Bind does not (4th ed. Relic Bind still does).

The most recent printing of Mana Vault is from fifth edition, and it reads:

Mana Vault does not untap during your untap phase.
At the end of your upkeep, if Mana Vault is tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.
: Untap Mana Vault at end of upkeep. Use this ability only during your upkeep.
Add three colorless mana to your mana pool. Play this ability as a mana source.

Both Vaults looked the same under the vague A/B/U grammar, with its "you must" construction. However, subsequent printings of Mana Vault under more powerful, narrower grammars force us to conclude that it is not kin to Time Vault at all, but rather closer to Phyrexian Colossus.

If you'll permit an analogy: on the surface, dolphins and sharks look much alike, and one might be forgiven for classifying them as of a type. But with better resolution, it becomes clear that dolphins are closer related to moles than sharks.

[Yare]

Allow me to clear this up for you. The current wordings of both Mana Vault and Time Vault are totally consistent. You might not know this if you are like most Vintage players and like to pimp out your decks with Beta cards, because if that's all you're looking at then sure, you would see a problem, since they both say "To untap it, you must..." HOWEVER there is a crucial fact you're missing: Mana Vault has been reprinted more recently. Wizards gives priority to the most recent printing of a card, because it tends to be the most common (there are more UNL vaults than Beta, and more 4th than UNL). This is why Basalt Monolith now matches its printed wording while Legends Relic Bind does not (4th ed. Relic Bind still does).

The most recent printing of Mana Vault is from fifth edition, and it reads:

Mana Vault does not untap during your untap phase.
At the end of your upkeep, if Mana Vault is tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.
: Untap Mana Vault at end of upkeep. Use this ability only during your upkeep.
Add three colorless mana to your mana pool. Play this ability as a mana source.

Both Vaults looked the same under the vague A/B/U grammar, with its "you must" construction. However, subsequent printings of Mana Vault under more powerful, narrower grammars force us to conclude that it is not kin to Time Vault at all, but rather closer to Phyrexian Colossus.

If you'll permit an analogy: on the surface, dolphins and sharks look much alike, and one might be forgiven for classifying them as of a type. But with better resolution, it becomes clear that dolphins are closer related to moles than sharks.

I'm sorry, I'm just not persuaded by this.  The fact that Mana Vault was reprinted (and consequently given "updated" text sooner) does not somehow mean that Time Vault and Mana Vault were not originally the same.  Perhaps they didn't reprint Time Vault for...power reasons?

Edit: The fact of clarifying the former does not exclude the latter from being of the same nature.  Frankly, the fact that they didn't reprint Time Vault at the same time as Mana Vault is suggestive (emphasis on suggestive) of the idea that they knew Time Vault was "too powerful" as it was.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I'm sorry, I'm just not persuaded by this.  The fact that Mana Vault was reprinted (and consequently given "updated" text sooner) does not somehow mean that Time Vault and Mana Vault were not originally the same.  Perhaps they didn't reprint Time Vault for...power reasons?

Edit: The fact of clarifying the former does not exclude the latter from being of the same nature.  Frankly, the fact that they didn't reprint Time Vault at the same time as Mana Vault is suggestive (emphasis on suggestive) of the idea that they knew Time Vault was "too powerful" as it was.

So THAT's why they didn't print Blaze of Glory and False Orders after Unlimited.  They're too powerful!

Perhaps the card was intended to allow you to take an extra turn, but to do so, you had to skip a turn.

[Matt]

You're right, they may have originally been intended as the same, but the ffith edition printing of MV makes it a moot question.

However, the reason they didn't reprint TV in revised was that it was considered "too confusing." Much like Ironclaw Orcs and the cards Mr. Nightmare cites (I don't know why Twiddle wasn't reprinted in revised).

[Harlequin]

What kinda bugs me, is that now the FNM Intuitions are WRONG.... and the tempest card printed text is "more right."  But the FNM Oath of Druids are still RIGHT, and the Exodus card printed text is wrong.  I'll be they errata Oath back to targeting in the near future.

If I'm not mistaken Time vault was BANNED when they printed revised, and so on.  So why on earth would they choose to print a banned card?  insead they re-printed mana vault and kept tabs on the current rules at the time.  And continued evolving the card until 5th ed when it was completely different.  It comes down to you COULD logically force Timevault down the "Mana vault" road and end up at a card that would be banned in all constructed formats simply because its TOO good with the current cardpool.  how would that help anyone?  OR you could make a few concessions to the "errata rules," that you all want to religeously adhear to, and errata the card on a road that is independant of mana vault and arrive at a more or less "arguably acceptable" but ultimatly Different interpretation of the same card printed text and ALSO end up with a card that is un-banned.  

Or you could argue that in A/B/U they templated the cards the same because they thought they wanted them to work the same.  Then in 3rd, 4th, and 5th, they made the concession that Mana vault was infact FUNDAMENTALLY different from Time Vault and subsiquently CHANGED the templateing.  Do I know this is fact... NO.  But it is an alternate logical deduction based on what was printed and what was not.

[Tha Gunslinga]

(I don't know why Twiddle wasn't reprinted in revised).

Oh, but I do.  I have in front of me the Duelist supplement from May 1994 which explains ALL the changes.  Shall we proceed?

Some cards that appeared in the Limited and Unlimited editions have been replaced in the Revised Edition with cards from Arabian Nights and Antiquities, the first two Magic: The Gathering expansion sets. There are several reasons for these substitutions. According to Magic's creator, Richard Garfield, and the original design team, cards being replaced fall into three broad categories: There are the "mystifiers"--cards that were too confusing for most players, or led to too many paradoxes, or defied too many of the basic Magic rules. Then there are the "spoilers", the cards whose effects were out of proportion. These cards had a tendency to throw entire games out of whack, and were only fun when they were on your side. It is no coincidence that many of these cards appear on the Duelists' Convocation Restricted or Banned list. Finally there are the "retirees", cards which are simply being phased out. Richard always intended for the card set to be fluid and for some of the old cards to be replaced by new ones. So some of the cards were selected for "retirement." This is not to say they will never be back, or similar cards won't show up in future expansions.

Original Card    Category    Replacement Card
Ancestral Recall    spoiler    Serendib Efreet
Berserk    spoiler    Desert Twister
Black Lotus    spoiler    Aladdin's Lamp
Blaze of Glory    mystifier    Eye for an Eye
Camouflage    mystifier    Shatterstorm
Chaos Orb    retiree    Bottle of Suleiman
Consecrate Land    retiree    Reverse Polarity
Copper Tablet    retiree    Ornithopter
Cyclopean Tomb    retiree    Mishra's War Machine
Dwarven Demolition Team    retiree    Dwarven Weaponsmith
False Orders    retiree    Kird Ape
Forcefield    spoiler    Armageddon Clock
Four "rare" Islands    retiree    Millstone, Dragon Engine, Primal Clay, Rocket Launcher
Gauntlet of Might    spoiler    Jandor's Ring
Ice Storm    spoiler    Crumble
Icy Manipulator    retiree    The Rack
Illusionary Mask    mystifier    Ivory Tower
Invisibility    retiree    Reconstruction
Ironclaw Orcs    retiree    Atog
Jade Statue    mystifier    Brass Man
Lich    mystifier    El-Hajjaj
Mox Emerald    spoiler    Dancing Scimitar
Mox Jet    spoiler    Onulet
Mox Pearl    spoiler    Jandor's Saddlebags
Mox Ruby    spoiler    Ebony Horse
Mox Sapphire    spoiler    Flying Carpet
Natural Selection    retiree    Titania's Song
Psionic Blast    retiree    Energy Flux
Raging River    mystifier    Magnetic Mountain
Sinkhole    spoiler    Erg Raiders
Time Vault    spoiler    Aladdin's Ring
Time Walk    spoiler    Island Fish Jasconius
Timetwister    spoiler    Hurkyl's Recall
Twiddle    mystifier    Unstable Mutation
Two-Headed Giant of Foriys    mystifier    Mijae Djinn
Word of Command    mystifier    Sorceress Queen

And a few more detailed explanations:

   1. Berserk. Says Richard Garfield: "Anything which multiplies is potentially abusive. Failure to have a Fog should not warrant 80 damage."
   2. Chaos Orb. "No, we didn't can the concept," says Garfield. "There will always be weirdo cards like this floating around, but the same old one gets passé."
   3. Illusionary Mask. According to Garfield, "This one will probably resurface in a slightly more clarified form sometime."
   4. Four "rare" Islands. "Are you kidding?" says Garfield. "Actually it is worth noting people were never meant to know they had rare islands. We were under the impression your rares would appear randomly in the deck and in random numbers. Had we known, they would have been something else; this is just the soonest we could really correct the mistake."
   5. Time Vault. "Not in and of itself," explains Dave Pettey. "It just limits what you can do without creating 'spoiler' combinations from 'non-spoiler' cards. It's different from the 'real spoilers' like Ancestral Recall."
   6. Twiddle. "Twiddle was badly miscorrected after Alpha, were it wasn't really well written anyway," says Garfield. "Rather than recorrect it when it was pretty confusing anyway we decided to drop it. Eventually, you can expect it back again."
   7. Word of Command. According to Garfield, "This one is buggier than a high school FORTRAN class."

[Norm4eva]

isn't waylay only like 10 cents a piece?

Mine were $0.50   But I don't care that I'm down $2.14.  I'm just irked that within so much as 24 hours my card changed its text like 3 times.  Value schmalue.  Time to break out the Screech/Anal/Speculation engine again

[Erdrick]

If Time Vault would become untapped, instead choose one - untap Time Vault and you skip your next turn; or Time Vault remains tapped.

I would have put this question is the rules forum, but it seemed to better fit in this thread.  Since everything happens at the same time in the untap step and you can't cast spells, do the rest of your tapped permanents stay taped and you skip the turn you were just starting?  (This matches closer to the end of the opponents turn which is when it was used when it wasn't being used in a combo.)  Or, does everything untap and you skip the turn after the turn you were just starting?  Either way it is kinda funny that Stasis shuts this down.

[The Atog Lord]

You'd continue with the current turn, then skip the next turn you would take. You're already in your turn once you start you untap step. And yes, the lack of synergy with Stasis is very sad.

[Yare]

So THAT's why they didn't print Blaze of Glory and False Orders after Unlimited.  They're too powerful!

Perhaps the card was intended to allow you to take an extra turn, but to do so, you had to skip a turn.

That's why I said "suggestive," although Tha Gunslinga seems to have confirmed my suspicions.

You're right, they may have originally been intended as the same, but the ffith edition printing of MV makes it a moot question.

I think I understand you, but I'm not certain.  Let's try to go through this step by step.  You're saying that the two cards, Time Vault and Mana Vault may or may not have been originally printed to work in a similar manner.  That is, originally, to untap Time Vault you had to pay the cost of skipping a turn and to untap Mana Vault your had to pay the cost of 4.  After looking at Magiccards.info, Time Vault and Mana Vault both retained the same wording throughout alpha, beta, and unlimited.  At this point, Time Vault was no longer reprinted, as we all know.  Then, Mana Vault was reprinted in Revised and, sans the addition of the "T" tap symbol, retained the same wording again.  Then, in 4th edition we get the 4: untap, use only during your upkeep, which was retained in 5th edition.  Finally, Mana Vault was errata'd to become the triggered ability it is today (probably due to 6th edition rules).  Hence, you are saying that as of the printing of 4th edition version of the card, Mana Vault may or may not have changed to what essentially is its wording is today, but that because it was reprinted at a later time (namely 4th edition), we know how Mana Vault was supposed to work.

I have some questions, but I'm going to stop there and let you say if that is an accurate representation of what you mean to say.  If not, please clarify.