New post-errata combos

[Titanium Dragon]

With the power level unerrata, it did not change [CARD]Time Vault[/cARD] as many had hoped, but it did change it, along with [CARD]Basalt Monolith[/CARD] and a number of other cards, some of which were once viewed as degenerate. But do they make any difference?

It seems to me that there are two two-card combos worth examining:

[CARD]Basalt Monolith[/CARD] (and the restricted [CARD]Grim Monolith[/CARD]) plus [CARD]Power Artifact[/CARD] - [CARD]Heartstone[/CARD] could also allow for the infinite mana loop, but would require [CARD]March of the Machines[/CARD] or similar in play, and that strikes me as too slow. The former, though, seems interesting, as off an early Ritual or Lotus you could be generating infinite (colorless) mana turn 2.

[CARD]Time Vault[/CARD] plus [CARD]Mizzium Transreliquat[/CARD] - all colorless, and if you can supply three mana per turn you can take an infinite number of turns. It costs 2 + 3 + 3 = 8 to start up, but once you've started you never need stop.

So, does anyone think either of these, or the errataed Great Whale and company, will have any impact whatsoever on the format? Or will this upgrade in power do nothing for Vintage?

[policehq]

Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact is only comparable to Metalworker + Staff of Domination.

The benefits of the former are:
-You do not need to run as many artifacts.
-You could support Force of Will.

However, it is a slower combo, and it requires another card to win. Thus I do not think it is very viable to run Basalt Monolith as a 4-of, and Gifts decks have already played Grim Monolith (a one-of) and Power Artifact as the two-card kill.

-hq

[Wollblad]

Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact wasn't anywhere broken even before when it was allowed. Back then Dishenchant was more commonly played and you could play only one Braingeyser and one Stroke of Genius which made the combo a little less viable. Today you would probably play something like two Monolith, a couple of Power Artifact, Tinker and Transmute Artifact or suitable transmute cards and a lot of Cunning Wish, but how fun is a Power Artifact without a Monolith? Not at all! Correct. More a legacy combo than a Vintage ditto.

The same goes for the Time Vault combo mentioned above. Each combo part is terrible without the other.

[RThomas]

It's probably worth noting that the eight mana to combo with Mizzium Transreliquat and Time Vault is one mana less than it takes to combo with Mana Severance and Goblin Charbelcher.  Also, you can Tinker for both targets, and Mizzium Transreliquat does some relevant things on its own as well.  Since it wouldn't die to any more hate cards that Goblin Charbelcher would die to, it could probably be well-utilized in Gifts decks.

[Conan_barberarn]

You need some good way of finding the combo and getting it started. Eight mana is not that much but I see problems with assembling the combo (what do you gifts for?). Also, getting an unlimited number of time walks doesn't win you the game so you'll need to run the actual win-condition along side of the Mizzium+ Time Vault= bad usage of slots.

[Purple Hat]

If only relic bind hadn't been reprinted something useful would have come out of this eratta change.  As it is however, I don't think that any of the cards are even playable in their current form, much less good.

if you want infinite colorless mana out of artifacts you should play metalworker staff because not only does it have the advantages mentioned above, but it also draws your deck, grants infinite life, taps all your opponent's creatures....etc.  Also you can build your deck to abuse metalworker by itself.

Hale

[RThomas]

Also, getting an unlimited number of time walks doesn't win you the game so you'll need to run the actual win-condition along side of the Mizzium+ Time Vault= bad usage of slots.

Does it really matter what your win condition is once you have infinite turns?  You can hardcast your Darksteel Colossus or beat with Goblin Welders or something like that if you really want to.

[Harlequin]

The point is that the Mizzium Transreliquat / Time Vault combo is about as casual as Panoptic Mirror / Timewalk or Spellbinder / Savage Beating.  It just doesn't do enough, and its too difficult to set up.  The reason FF was so amazing is that it won you the game in a heartbeat.

And you can't really gifts for it... without even more crazy mana.  I mean if they errataed it the way some were expecting then Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Reconstruct, Ritual of Restoration ... would be a valid win condition.  If you do the same pile but replace Key with Transreliquate... thats a more mana (ontop of the that would have been required for the Key combo).  Simply not viable.

FF/old vault was > worker/staff >> any other janky 2 card combo that doesn't win you the game. (includeing Trans/new TV).

Interestingly enough, Copy Artifact now works as a single use timewalk.  how about Timevault + Copy artifact + Isco Scepter + Boomerange.  That at least is less mana.  -_-

[The Atog Lord]

I checked with a friend who is a level 2 judge, and he confirmed that Copy Artifact copying Time Vault comes into play tapped.
However, I am going to explore the new combos a bit more before deciding that they are not worthwhile.

[emidln]

The cheapest gifts pile is probably like this if all you want is infy turns:

Reconstruction
Yawgmoth's Will
Time Vault
Mizzium Transreliquat

Unless you can generate a lot of mana from the Will, in which case, it might be like this:

Recoup
Yawgmoth's Will
Time Vault
Mizzium Transreliquat

Of course, you'd still have classic piles like four tutors that end up finding all the pieces separately. The problem with taking infy turns is that you still need some way to actually win. Granted, with infy turns, setting up Tinker -> DSC isn't going to be hard, but that leaves you ultra-vulnerable to Extract/Jester's Cap.

All of that said, I found my new casual deck, aka Time Goat Combo. All the goodness of Doom Goat without the need for BBB. Mmm, Time Goat.

[misslehead3]

Just something i noticed when i read this previous post. How are they gonna extract or cap you. if you laying gifts then you have sumthin like 8-11 counters mainboard ad hen after sidfew you have 3 red counterspells. so y are you letting these cards hit you. also if your taking infinite turns you should robobly do it when they are low on mana or when you have a good board position.

That last sentance kinda goes for everyone

Horrible, horrible spelling. Violation of rules 1.2, 1.8 and 1.9. Your other posts unanimously suck, too. You have exactly one chance to clean up your act. Consider yourself warned.
- Bram

[LotusHead]

[CARD]Time Vault[/CARD] plus [CARD]Mizzium Transreliquat[/CARD] - all colorless, and if you can supply three mana per turn you can take an infinite number of turns. It costs 2 + 3 + 3 = 8 to start up, but once you've started you never need stop.

Brilliant! You just need to make the deck not lose to other decks, but I can now use my Foil Mizzium TThingie!

Great Thread.

For those of us not in the know, of the cards that got errata'd (like Intuition), what real effects does it have on game play?

Intuition:
Printed Text:
Search your library for any three cards and reveal them to target opponent.  He or she choses one.  Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard.  Shuffle your library afterwards.

Oracle Text:
Search your library for any three cards and reveal them. Target opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

Oracle Errata Note: 10/4/2004 It does not target the opponent. You choose an opponent during resolution.

I can't see anything different in current Oracle text from Printed text other than templating.  The errata note bugs me (not that I have played against True Believer/IvoryMasks often).

IS anything different about Intuition? (or some previous errata'd version of Intuition?)

[Yare]

IS anything different about Intuition? (or some previous errata'd version of Intuition?)

The difference is that prior to the most recent errata, Intuition's Oracle text did not include the "target" aspect of it.  Consequently, True Believer would not stop Intuition from being played.  Now, you must be able to have a legal target to announce the spell and that target must be legal upon resolution, like any other spell.

I do not, however, have the previous Oracle text prior to this latest change.  The errata notes on Gatherer are messed up and Crystal Keep does not seem to be working.  If someone wants to contribute the old information, feel free.

Edit: added bolded "not" so my statement actually makes sense

[TurbulentDirge]

I have been testing a Monolith/Power Artifact deck on MWS, which admittedly is not the best medium for serious testing, but it has done relatively well. As was previously suggested, it does use Cunning Wish to fetch its Stroke in the board, and it has a tutor and acceleration base similar to TPS or GL. The list I am using currently is below.

The Monolith

// Lands
    4 Underground Sea
    4 City of Brass
    3 Gemstone Mine
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Spells
    4 Basalt Monolith
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Stroke of Genius
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Cunning Wish
    4 Duress
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Timetwister
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Time Walk
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    4 Power Artifact
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Echoing Truth
    4 Force of Will
    1 Grim Monolith
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt

For goldfishing, the deck consistently attains a turn 2 or 3 win. When I say consistently, I do mean consitently; in approximately 20 godlfishes, only thrice has it needed a fourth turn, which was likely due to a bad play or to misfortune (synonomous with bad play).
In terms of matchups, I have only played GL, TPS, and Oath with it in any quantity to merit a judgement. The strength in the deck is its ability to play its combo pieces over a period of turns if need be. This allows the deck to play the control in the matchup to an extent, waiting until it has the ideal moment to win.
The sideboard/wishboard is tentative at the moment (read: Xantid Swarm has a big question mark next to it), but the maindeck is strong.

Thoughts or comments on this archetype?
-DL

[Moxlotus]

Your deck also looks light on mana sources (monolith can't count as a source since it costs 3) at 25 in a combo deck.

I think this deck is doomed to failure simply because other decks do exactly what it wants only better.  Its slower than a 5 color combo deck.  It is around the same speed as Pitch Long, only with a less stable manabase and a tougher time against Null Rod or Chalice (good luck casting Wish-->Chain against Rods and wastes with your manabase).  You also have to play with a bunch of cards that are shit by themselves.  We've been able to use Power Artifact with Grim Monolith since forever.  There is a reason why no one has done it in like 3 years.

[yespuhyren]

Stax will have a field day against you, I would think.  You only have 12 lands, all being non basic, so between 4 Chalices (@0 OR @1, both seem to hurt you severely) and 5 Strip effects, you would seem extremely vulnerable to me. 

On a side note, wouldn't this deck be almost as good in Legacy?  Neither of the two combo cards are banned in legacy (YET!)

EDIT:  Although Grim Monolith does speed up mana, its generally one shot just like Dark Ritual, and I would think the main reason it was cut out was BECAUSE of the Power Artifact combo.  Just like Earthcraft, Worldgorger Dragon, Metalworker, etc were all banned because of their "Game-Ending combo broken shenanigans potential" as I like to call it.  I have a feeling Basalt will be gone with the next round of bannings

[zeus-online]

I think its more likely that grim monolith would be unrestricted, rather then basalt monolith getting restricted.

power artifact combos are too slow for modern vintage.

/Zeus

[yespuhyren]

I was talking about for Legacy, not for Vintage. I do not believe the combo is that good in vintage as a combo deck, whereas it has much potential in Legacy, where the combo speed is not that bad.  Notice how I mentioned A LOT of cards as being banned (note they are banned in legacy but not vintage )

[Jacob Orlove]

Please keep all discussion in this thread to Vintage decks only. We have a separate Legacy forum for a reason.