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Author Topic: Sideboarding In Type 1  (Read 9280 times)
warwizard87
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« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2006, 01:43:26 pm »

I think you guys may be overthinking the whole "how to sideboard" thing. Honestly its pretty OBV what your opponent is going to bring in. I can usually name all or most of the cards they brought in and most of what they took out. If i can do that i am sure most players can as well. I gave up on the 15 in 15 out awhile back, it just felt like i was underestimating my opponent. He knows what deck i am playing, i should assume he has a TMD.com or a scgs.com account and knows the top decks and if i have some freaky tech the only information he can glean is i boarded in some cards.

As for testing sideboards, thats a must. You can't expect to go to a event not knowing/remembering a sideboard plan, you will just lose 1/3 of your games that way. That not how to top 8.


While it's true that there may be some "obvious" cards that decks board against other decks, there are often new/tech/obscure cards that some people use, and like someone mentioned earlier, if you can cause your opponent to think you are borading in cards when infact you are not, you have gained an advantage.


Agreed thier are new/tech/obscure cards but your opponet won't know what they are, they can't see them. Chances are you took out 1-2 cards that would normaly go in that match up to make room for the new tech . So worst possable scenario, your opponet sees you brought in 2 more cards then expected  :shock:. I just don't see the advantage.

EDIT: No i was not sitting here wating ona reply, i just sort of got on to check e-mail and noticed you posted when i refreshed the page XD. I am NOT that much of a geek LOL =]
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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2006, 02:00:25 pm »

I think the whole point is that if your opponent expects 1-2 cards and sees you board in all 15, then they can no longer assume just the 1 or 2. The 15 in- 15 out trick is only useful against opponents who might know (or expect) a set sideboard stradegy. It is pretty much useless against noobs who have no idea what you are boarding in the first place.
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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2006, 02:34:08 pm »

Another thing that can be said about the 'shuffle my sideboard in' method is that it makes sideboarding generally easier. Instead of deciding what cards you want to bring in and what cards you want to take out for them, you can go through your 75 and decide on the 15 weakest cards to take out.
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« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2006, 09:44:21 am »

The sideboarding in 15 cards and then removing 15 cards has been beaten to death over the years, and hopfully this thread can return to some of the key questions stated slightly earlier.

The 15 card in and then 15 card approach simply comes down to the players ability at boarding. How fast can he board? Can he do 15 in and out in a timely fassion w/o getting a judge call for slow play? Is it harder for a player to visually sideboard all in and then all out??? For some the answer is yes, and others it no. Last but most importantly is lazieness... Doing the 15 in/out approach takes patience, and many players find it to be a hastle.
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2006, 10:00:49 am »

The slide in 15 take out 15 usually takes a minute or two. The last two cards I always find extremely crucial and difficult. I usually watch my opponents boarding strategy and see what he does. If I am playing something more rogue (which I usually do) I change my path to victory if I see ass loads of cards.

Let's say for example I am playing Masknought.

My opponent brings in eight cards since I am watching. MASKNOUGHT COMES OUT. If theres red in the deck I know I will see Rack And Ruin, and other cards that slap me up.

Sorry I used Masknought but it's one of the easier decks to show sideboarding strategies.
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« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2006, 01:16:09 pm »

Quote
I think you guys may be overthinking the whole "how to sideboard" thing. Honestly its pretty OBV what your opponent is going to bring in. I can usually name all or most of the cards they brought in and most of what they took out. If i can do that i am sure most players can as well.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that you know what your opponent is sideboarding in.  I always change my sideboard for each new tournament to reflect the regional metagame, so if you get my decklist off Star City and think you know what I'm boarding in based on that information, then you are probably wrong.  MORE IMPORTANTLY - The person who is playing the deck will often have a different sideboard strategy than another player playing the same archtype.  I played against THE EXACT SAME DECK with THE EXACT SAME SIDEBOARD played by two different individuals at the same tournament and faced COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sideboard cards. 

The quote stated above suggests that there is a predetermined sideboard plan that you will use in every match vs a given archtype.  If that were the case, then there wouldn't be a lot to think about, you'd side your cards in, he sides his cards in and you play a textbook match-up just like in your testing scenarios.  In real life it doesn't work that way, so you can just side in your cards, attempt some kind of bluff by sideing in more cards and then siding them out, or just side in the full 15.  I think the safe bet is to just to put the 15 in there and not really give your opponent any extra info.   

Of course if your opponent is a random n00b you probably can guess their sideboard, but then again, if they're a random n00b you'll probably win anyway, so why even worry about that?
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« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2006, 09:13:34 am »

How did this thread degenerate into how to physically sideboard? You should use the method that reveals the least amount of information to your opponent, simple as that.

I thought the original intent of this thread was to discuss in-depth strategies for sideboarding. For example I am playing MDGifts with 2 Misdirections and one Fire/Ice versus Kowal’s Control Slaver. Game two my plan is:
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Rebuild
-1 Demonic Tutor
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Red Elemental Blast
My theory is shutting down Thirst for Knowledge is of utmost importance in this match-up, so I am setting my deck up with the best chance to fulfill that role. I sided out Demonic Tutor because in the early game I will be fetching out Volcanic Islands and not my Underground Sea in an effort to support the Blasts. Mystical is card disadvantage and the bounce spells are fairly weak defensively in this match-up. One problem with this strategy is I am committing to DSC plan of attack, but I am okay with that. This seems like a great plan if Control Slaver doesn't side in anything, but we know that is not going to happen. The problem that I run into is, it is likely that my opponent will be boarding in a bunch of REBs as well. I have noticed that the Control Slaver can win through REBs because they directly affect neither Goblin Welder nor Mindslaver; however, I have to resolve a blue spell to win or get extremely lucky and land a ton of mana fast. Hence, in testing it seems that Control Slaver improves post board because his REBs are stronger than mine, I can't win unless I am in complete control whereas he can just cast a Mindslaver when I have a fistful of REBs and end the game. So, my question becomes is there a better way to board for this match-up in which MDGifts will improve post board instead of Control Slaver.
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« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2006, 11:41:36 am »

I really dont like siding out mystical, because you can no longer chain merchant scroll -> mysitcal -> will (or tinker, etc.).

Also, I like to leave in 1 chain so that I can still randomly storm out, or even bounce weldars/shaman (not the strongest play though...)
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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2006, 12:58:14 pm »

Quote
I really dont like siding out mystical, because you can no longer chain merchant scroll -> mysitcal -> will (or tinker, etc.).

Also, I like to leave in 1 chain so that I can still randomly storm out, or even bounce weldars/shaman (not the strongest play though...)

Most ppl sideboard out Mystical and Vamp vs. drain decks bc/ they are card disadvantage.  Then again I have lost in the late game with CS bc/ i couldnt get mystical with scroll after winning a counter war.  But in general most ppl take out the disadvantage tutors.

Take the time to type out "people" rather than "ppl."  Internet slang is generally avoided like the plague on TMD.  Also, I fixed your quote tag.
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« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2006, 05:36:45 pm »

@CSSAMERICAN

You mention a very strong point about the CS vs. Meandeck Gifts matchup. Postboard the matchup advantage that tends to lean game 1 to gifts can easily sway to CS without a strong sideboard.

I personally dont believe REB is enough of an answer in the CS matchup. Meandeck Gifts generally has the room availible to bring in REB's as well as either Tormod's Crypt and/or Pithing Needle. I give Crypt the slight advantage in the board department because of its ability to also cut down the raw power of yawgmoth's will as well as be a nuisence for welder.

Lava Dart is also amazing in the matchup because besides killing welder it can also raise storm count by essentially 3 spells (counting damage) by itself.

When I played MD Gifts I boarded like this vs. CS with ALOT of success.

+1 REB
+3 Pyroblast (better for storm)
+1 Lava Dart
+2 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Mox pearl (if on the draw) & Island if on play
-1 Fact or Fiction (or 2nd Gifts Ungiven)
-1 ______ (In your case you would board only 6 because I doubt you would bring in lava dart if you run fire/ice).

A good rule is when playing vs. a card like goblin welder you should make a choice. Do I want to board to kill the creature (lava dart, fire/ice, Pithing Needle), OR do I board against the graveyard affect itself (Tormod's Crypt, coffin Purge, Needle).

The creature kill has more versatility vs. more decks and more situations. However, the graveyard hate hits yawgmoth's will and that card in essence is the format. So its a really give/take choice, but generally is an important 1 to make.

Also thanks for bringing the thread back on topic.
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warwizard87
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« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2006, 03:41:14 am »

I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that you know what your opponent is sideboarding in.  I always change my sideboard for each new tournament to reflect the regional metagame, so if you get my decklist off Star City and think you know what I'm boarding in based on that information, then you are probably wrong.  MORE IMPORTANTLY - The person who is playing the deck will often have a different sideboard strategy than another player playing the same archtype.  I played against THE EXACT SAME DECK with THE EXACT SAME SIDEBOARD played by two different individuals at the same tournament and faced COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sideboard cards. 

The quote stated above suggests that there is a predetermined sideboard plan that you will use in every match vs a given archtype.  If that were the case, then there wouldn't be a lot to think about, you'd side your cards in, he sides his cards in and you play a textbook match-up just like in your testing scenarios.  In real life it doesn't work that way, so you can just side in your cards, attempt some kind of bluff by sideing in more cards and then siding them out, or just side in the full 15.  I think the safe bet is to just to put the 15 in there and not really give your opponent any extra info.   

Of course if your opponent is a random n00b you probably can guess their sideboard, but then again, if they're a random n00b you'll probably win anyway, so why even worry about that?

How is it ridiculous to have a fair idea of what my opponent is sideing in? Honestly not all sidecards are created equal obv, but you should , keyword is should, know what the normal and usual cards that you will see boarded in for any given match up would be. Lets say your facing off vs a ICBM oath player and your staxx, you pretty much know the common cards he is going to board in, and some of the more off the wall stuff as well you can be pretty sure some number of oxidizes are coming in and 2-3 energy fluxs, other cards i would keep in mind are, needle, darkblast, and maybe even ground seal. If he goes for the 15 in 15 out plan, i know he did not go 15 in 15 out probably more like 7 in 7 out. Don't know for sure but i can at least take a educated guess.

"The quote stated above suggests that there is a predetermined sideboard plan that you will use in every match vs a given archtype" Yes, i do have a predetermined sideboard plan for each and every major match up i believe i will see at that particular event. i prepare something like 3-4 sideboards while testing the a deck. When i get to the event i decide which one i would rather use and go from there.

"I played against THE EXACT SAME DECK with THE EXACT SAME SIDEBOARD played by two different individuals at the same tournament and faced COMPLETELY DIFFERENT sideboard cards. "

Then one of them made a mistake. If they had the same sideboard and someone did not board a card that was good vs you into their deck, either the side was built overkill for the match up and they made a mistake in building the side OR the other guy made a gross underestimation of the strength of a card vs that match-up. Heck, it could even of been the card that was diffrant was actually NOT meant for your match up and was boarded in anyway because it was just marginally good vs your deck.

"I always change my sideboard for each new tournament to reflect the regional metagame, so if you get my decklist off Star City and think you know what I'm boarding in based on that information, then you are probably wrong. "

Thats fine, metagaming is very important to sideboarding, BUT, big but there, there are always some cards that are "standard" in every sideboard of a archtype.
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Liam-K
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« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2006, 05:29:30 am »

Am I the only MDG player that thinks pithing needle is fucking AWFUL against slaver?  You have to name welder or else it gets welded out, which shuts down the worst card in their deck.  They just tinker, drain, or play the control battle until they can hardcast their big artifacts.  It's only relevant if they'd sneak through a welder + tfk -> big artifact very early, and then I'd rather have an REB in hand to stop their TFK entirely than a needle that makes their draw spell just slightly worse.

I'm also not decided about tinker/collosus.  Sometimes I side it out (still against CS) and sometimes I don't.  Sometimes when I do I love all the REBs and sometimes when I do I wish it was there because it would make me win.  I'd say the times it has clearly cost me the game vs. the times it has clearly won me the game are about even, without taking tinker lucksackery into account.  I'm tempted to reccommend leaving it in even though I love REB and usually win with tendrils anyway, but fistfuls of REB really hurt too.  Paradoxically I would never side it out if I were siding in pithing needle, because I'd be naming welder anyway.

I usually bring in LoA against slaver (for Island), it has made me happy more than it has made me sad.  I have also messed around with siding in Mindslaver.  I'm not ready to have an opinion on this yet.  It has been dead and savage both.


@cssamerican: this is a terrible answer but it's still the best.  Win before your opponent gets a billion mana.  Once slaver can start hardcasting their large men you need to have either played the control game well enough for that not to be a concern, or kicking them in the teeth.

edit: I should probably note I play maindeck fire/ice (scrollable is so hot).  This will affect my opinions about welder, and his concerns, including DSC, pithing needle, and the relative difficulty of stopping a hardcast slaver.
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2006, 06:14:30 am »

I think you're missing the other half of the reasoning's for siding needles--> Tormod's Crypt. Plus it stops crap like Library that would normally cost you the game.

Quote
I'm also not decided about tinker/collosus.  Sometimes I side it out (still against CS) and sometimes I don't.  Sometimes when I do I love all the REBs and sometimes when I do I wish it was there because it would make me win.  I'd say the times it has clearly cost me the game vs. the times it has clearly won me the game are about even, without taking tinker lucksackery into account.  I'm tempted to reccommend leaving it in even though I love REB and usually win with tendrils anyway, but fistfuls of REB really hurt too.  Paradoxically I would never side it out if I were siding in pithing needle, because I'd be naming welder anyway.

I am also unsure of how to side against slaver. Do you side out Tinker or do you side out Colossus and bring in Titan?
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2006, 06:36:48 pm »

I have always found that taking out tinker is ALWAYS a mistake. At worst tinker says that you turn a mox into a black lotus creating a much better yawgmoth's will. Also leaving in DSC seems appropriate because it just allows for to many stupid wins. I have seen countless games where a DSC swings over an unactive welder for the kill.

Needle is amazing vs. slaver but its amazing vs. stax and other matchups. However, bringing it in can often by you several turns. shut off tormod's crypt and randomly stop welder before they ever get drain in tact. Its a frusterating card thats sometimes better then what you might have maindeck. Is lava dart generally a better play? Probably. but that doesnt make needle a bad 1.
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2006, 08:22:24 pm »

The reason I started using Needle as a sideboard card was mainly against the at-the-time plethora of bazaar-fueled wins I was seeing in my area.  Since then, however, I've found that there are enough other things you can do with the card that it is almost never a dead sideboard choice if you have room for it.
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2006, 08:32:02 pm »

I don't really fear tormod's crypt without active welder, and welder often defeats needle on crypt.  I realize sometimes you can just drop the needle and then shit everywhere, but you can do the same thing with bounce because your opponent will probably activate crypt in response to needle if they can't stop it.  I don't think needle is a bad sideboard card in general, but I've found I'm happier to see REB than needle when facing CS.

CS's REBs are better though, it's true.  It makes me tempted to bring in some Duress because it's not blue.
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2006, 09:35:59 pm »

Liam, when I played MDG I chose Dampening Matrix over needle because it hit more things that can hinder the MDG plan. Yes it costs a little more but it shuts down welder,slaver,crypt,mox monkey etc.
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« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2006, 09:23:04 pm »

Everyone ALWAYS believes that there deck matchups improve because of the sideboard games 2 and game 3. However, this is clearly impossible. Only 1 player in a match can gain an advantage postboard, or the match up stays relatively the same. But, if you ask almost any player regardless they will almost always say oh I am boarding in card X and card Y. Forgetting that the opponent is doing the same exact thing. This is just one funny thing that I have ALWAYS noticed, and I find honestly pretty funny. Have you noticed this?

Actually, I think what most people think is "Decks X, Y, & Z are bad match-ups for me pre SB.  I should gear my SB around making those match-ups winnable in case I run into them.  If I've done it correctly, my post SB game against those decks will go up.  Against the decks I already have a good match-up against, I won't worry about specifically gearing my SB against."

Thus, they are thinking, my deck post SB gets better against the decks I designed the SB to beat.  When the issue comes up, people like to talk about how they had this great deck-building insight to build their SB with decks X, Y, & Z in mind.  You won't hear anyone telling you about how their deck gets worse against deck W post SB, because they still think they have the overall good match-up against deck W and are confident with their (assumed) game win going into game 2.  If they wind up losing the match, they chalk it up to bad luck. 

I honestly don't believe people think that their deck gets better against every deck post SB, just every deck they designed the SB for.  The real problem here in my opinion is that people don't actually pay attention to statistics when they lose matchs.  How many of you keep records of every game you've played (what your opponent is playing, and what you're playing, and the result) and then add that number to your match-up statistics to determine which deck has the advantage pre SB, what deck has the advantage post SB, what cards were bad for you/your opponent?   

Quote
How many cards can I bring in before I am destroying the deck synergy.

In Vintage particularly I find it hard to SB more than 4 cards.  In say Standard, I would find it much simpler with Ghost Husk to say "I need to take out 1 Ghost Council, 3 Pontiff and 1 Castigate for 3 Last Gasp and 2 Wrath of God" against Gruul because it's simple to see that they're a faster deck, and I need to keep their creatures down to win (granted this is only 5 cards, but I'm sure if there were more cards in the typical Ghost Husk SB usefull against Gruul I could take out another Castigate, and some Promise of the Bunrei, and maybe even a second Ghost Council if I had a 9th SB card that was good enough to board in).  As far as what I said above, I think that the Ghost Husk deck would improve its games post SB, but that the Gruul deck doesn't really pay attention to this match post SB because it percieves the match-up to already be in its favor, and common consensus is that a SB will only make your deck a little better.  The issue isn't that Gruul players think their deck gets better post SB, its that they think it doesn't have to (which is the fatal flaw in my opinion).

In comparison with Vintage, if I'm playing Burning Slavery against MDG, what can I really take out of my deck?  I can bring in REBs, Duress, extra TCrypts, but what cards aren't doing enough for me in this match up?  I can see taking out Vampiric, and perhaps Gorilla Shamans, and an artifact (Duplicant/Trike), but seriously, how big of an advantage does one card have over the other unless its obviously dead (like Trike)?

How often do you really have completely dead cards in any match?

I personally haven't played this match a whole lot, but it seems that Burning Slavery has a pretty tight list, and that any card you take out, the card you're replacing it with has only marginally better utility.

After about 4, it becomes hard to put anything in without taking out Brainstorms, TfKs or Countermagic and in most cases you'd be crazy to take that out (one where taking those out is fine would be the Fish match, where Mana Drain does very little in comparison to REB, Fire/Ice, and Clasm)


Quote
2.) Are decks with maindeck hate such as UW fish and Ichorid less likely to improve matchups, because they have essentially sideboarded game 1 to a predicted metagame?

They are less likely to improve their good match-ups, which is what they're meta-gamed to beat, but they may prove capable of improving their poor pre SB match-ups just like everything else.  Additionally, the decks they are metagamed against may all be hit hard by the same spell(s) and so that's played MD (like Duress) but then suffer from narrow answers that can be put in the SB for just that match (Swords to Plowshares) and thus either improve or maintain the quality of their game against their opponents even post SB.


Quote
3.) When you build a Sideboard do you focus on a few particular matchups, or try to have cards available for whatever you might play?

I rarely play a SB that has generic answers to everything in Vintage.  If you could only play 4 SB cards and were playing with white and black, would you rather run 4 Vindicate to answer "anything," or would you rather say "I want a better match-up against Stax, I'm going to run 4 Seal of Cleansing"

Quote
4.) How much time and effort do you put into your sideboard & what percentage of games do you test your deck postboard?

If I don't have any metagame information, I spend less time developing a SB for that specific tournament and simply go with cards I know shore up weak match-ups for the deck I'm going to play.  I don't exactly keep track of time I spend messing with SB's, because they are more or less ever-changing as the metagame is ever-changing.  I attempt to play all games as 2 out 3 with SB's.  Sometimes I don't (I don't exactly have test partners at the moment).
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« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2006, 05:42:53 am »

Hi all,

I've been playing MDGifts for some time now. I can handle all the matchups rather well -I have been getting positive results in playtesting and tournement play with the sideboard options from Steven Menendian- except for the Stax matchup. I don't know why but they always seem to have first turn Workshop and then there comes a steady stream of threats (Tangle Wire, Welder, Smokestack, Chalice, Sphere of Resistance, Uba Mask ...). You'd want to counter all of them but of course you can't and you are forced to be selective. We have all different versions of Stax in our meta with competent players.

So my questions: how do you sideboard against them (Chron, Chang, Uba)? Is this just a hard matchup or is there a specific strategy?

My boarding against Uba(which is actually Steve's boarding):

+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Rack and Ruin
+2 Hurkyl's Recall

-1 Demonic Tutor
-1 Mystical Tutor
-3 Misdirection

What I was thinking though, would you consider it a good idea to either side in a basic Swamp and 1 Darkblast (while changing the fetch combination to 3 Polluted Delta + 2 Flooded Strand) or 1 or 2 Fire Ice? This to have a better fighting chance against the very dangerous Welder and the extremely annoying Gorilla Shaman. The Darkblast could be tutored with a black source with Gifts Ungiven (Darkblast + Mox Jet + Underground Sea + Polluted Delta) while the Fire/Ice(s) can be tutored with Merchant Scroll and don't oblige you to fetch a black source (although you still have to fetch a nonbasic for red mana, which you don't like to do because of their Wastelands). I also like the dredge on Darkblast and both are capable of taking care of Dark Confident and help in the Fish matchup.

To make room for the Darkblast, you could bring in one less Pithing Needle (practically changing the third needle in the sideboard to Darkblast) and take out an Island for the Swamp. I don't like sacrificing the third Needle but maybe it would be an improvement. What do you think?

These sideboard cards would also help in the Control Slaver matchup but I believe that one to be a positive matchup already with the 4 Blasts and 3 Pithing Needles coming in. Positive but definetily not easy, especially in the hands of a capable player.

Greetings,

Robrecht.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 05:52:16 am by Odd mutation » Logged

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