EMERGENCY - Please Help Me... Cards Stolen Today

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Does anyone know the names of the other magic players? In general I know almost every magic player that comes and goes there, since I frequently draft, PTQ, and trade with everyone in that store. I suggest getting them involved as well, in a friendly non chastising interview.

[Kowal]

@Kowal: My binder was there along with Roland's when another magic player that I know was guarding both items. Obviously, if the rook case was there too, I would be telling this player to be guarding it as well, and if it vanished under these circumstances, I would be responsible for losing the case. Roland made it very clear to me yesterday that he views me as an acquaintance. Yesterday, I did promise him that I would buy him a mox or another piece of power to clear my name, but in hindsight, this makes no sense at all. I didn't do it, and I will do everything it takes to cooperate with him to find the real thief, but asking me to replace the cards, or even to contribute is overboard. Roland made it very clear that he doesn't see me as a friend, so why do I have the moral obligation to do this?

However, as the facts stand, the rook case was already gone by the time I requested this other magic player to look after our stuff. Read my report. Initially I thought that Roland took it with him, but after our discussion today, that conclusion is impossible. What's even more strange is that I along with 2 other magic players were there at the table, and none of us saw anything unusual. It would have taken a lot of motion and effort to pack up the decks on the table within the 2 minutes that Roland was gone, and none of us saw anything of the sort. Among the two players, one of them who I didn't even know, was sitting right next to where the cards would have been the entire time while I was looking at Roland's binder.

It's unfair that I am the only person being grilled because I was clearly not the only magic player there at the table, let alone the room. Also, a lot of Roland's conclusions today were wrong. Josh Meckes lied about being able to see the tapes, because both Roland and I have called the building manager multiple times to no avail. Josh also got his facts wrong about my being banned. If you check in the Neutral Ground server, there is no record of this ever happening. These are already quite a few pointed accusations that are already incorrect, and for me to cooperate further, these issues must be cleared and resolved as well. Conclusions or opinions that are formed on the basis of incorrect assumptions and facts will not lead anywhere. I know exactly what happened during these cases and with Vinny as well, so "ruffling my feathers" about these issues is clearly not solving anything. What's more, I'm better friends with Vinny than either of you.

As a witness, I have the responsibility of providing as much cooperation as you need, but we must continue exploring other leads. As I said earlier, I was not the only magic player at the table, let alone the room. We also never searched the Yu-Gi-Oh players at all. Call me if you have any questions or want to talk.

Nothing in this post contradicts anything I said.  Your excuse was that you were not paying enough attention to see the case in the first place?  That's ridiculous.  And your first paragraph is nothing short of vile--  If I trusted someone to keep watch over my rook case, and then they refused to help me cover the losses that THEY were responsible for, all because "you're not my friend"...  Jesus. 

[NULLROD]

@Elias: Do you know Luke? The chinese guy with the shrunken head. He lives in Flushing. The other guy was a tall standard player. He's a white kid with red hair. I dunno his name.

@Kowal: I will settle this or deal with this in whatever manner Roland and I agree upon, but I will not be influenced by what you, a third-party bystander says. You have no right to tell me what I should or should not feel or do, let alone be a judge in all of this. This is a private matter to be settled between Roland and I, and I will not let him down. Thanks for your concern, but your further input isn't appreciated, thanks.

[Changster]

@ Ici - Let's get this straight.  I view you as a friend, however some fact stands...

*I have not really known you outside of Magic
*I've played with you online via MWS more than once because you are very persistent in asking me
*I've played with you in person a couple of times prior to the incident
*You never brought a built deck to Neutral Ground, yet you still had a trade binder

I asked you yesterday during our meeting to post something on TMD saying something to the effect that you were "willing to" provide some help financially for my lost cards in the event that I do not find the stolen cards.  I did not ask you to "buy (me) a mox."  All of this was to help you begin to clear your name, but it seems clear to me that you're not interested in doing that either.

If I had been in your shoes, I would have taken much more responsibility of the cards I was looking after.  I'm not accusing you of stealing my cards right now, but know this, I highly suspected you before yesterday because our stories did not match up and you were the last ones with the cards, not just the binder.  As it turns out, I am held responsible for losing Jacob's cards at the end of the day when all is said and done.  That is why I have launched my own investigation on this whole ordeal.  If I offended you yesterday, I'm sorry.  I just want the truth and I only hope to god you were telling me the truth.

[Kowal]

@Kowal: I will settle this or deal with this in whatever manner Roland and I agree upon, but I will not be influenced by what you, a third-party bystander says. You have no right to tell me what I should or should not feel or do, let alone be a judge in all of this. This is a private matter to be settled between Roland and I, and I will not let him down. Thanks for your concern, but your further input isn't appreciated, thanks.

Excuse me?  You expect that because you don't like being reminded when you screwed up royally that the problem will just go away?

You've done some pretty despicable things.  It's not your place to demand anything, including clearing your name.  That's your responsibility, and instead you're digging yourself a deeper hole.

From what you've said thus far, anybody reading this thread can conclude one of two things:

1) You're an arrogant, ignorant, self-centered and bumbling buffoon, who has so little respect for the belongings of others entrusted to your care that you leave it at tables with people you don't even know watching it for you.

2) You had something to do with it.

Why should this be a private matter between Roland and yourself?  Roland made an appeal to this community to do its very best in making sure his cards return unharmed.  It's to be expected that you'd be the first of people under the microscope, given you were supposed to be keeping an eye on his stuff and apparently wandered off to get a pen instead.  Deal with it better than trying to push the light off, because all that does is make your name look worse.

[NULLROD]

@Roland: Thanks for setting things straight. I accept your apology.

@Kowal: I know what happened. I know that I'm innocent. I really couldn't give less of a fuck if it is people like yourself that are accusing me of a crime over an internet forum that results in the tarnishing my name. Also, you are violating Roland's wish to not point fingers.

When the thief is caught, and Roland's cards are returned, you will be the bumblefuck.


When I said that it was a private matter, I meant helping him out, buying a card etc. Obviously everyone's concerned about roland, including me. At the time I felt so bad for roland's loss that i wanted to help him and buy him (a card ) that day, and i would do more too. It was only because he accused me and relentlessly grilled me with josh that i became offended and felt that he demanded reparations or something, but now that he has apologized and things are set right between us, i feel completely relaxed about helping him out. Again, this is something I will be talking out with Roland, and I really appreciate him setting things straight.

[Mykeatog]

Hey,

I just wanted you guys to know that I am now aware fo the situation, and if anything comes our way, I will let you know.

Mykeatog.
General Manager - TrollandToad.com

[iamfishman]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29457.0

Please, please, please come to this and show your support for Roland and Jake.

Thanks in advance.

[NULLROD]

Are you a complete idiot? Please don't do this. - Bram

Read my above posts.

Seriously, you guys are beginning to hop on each other's bandwagons.

[Anusien]

In order for us to believe your statements, Nullrod, we have to believe that the Rook Case was somehow lifted from the table when none of the 5 players at the table were looking, which according to Chang, would have had to have happened literally right from under his nose.  It's much to believe that the case got swiped when you got up, when the other guys at the table weren't looking.

[Bram]

First of all, I'm deeply sorry this happened to you. It's basically what we are all afraid of when we walk around with $4000+ decks in our backpacks, and what we always assume will happen to another person. Good luck in resolving this nightmarish situation 

Random thought #1.

It would have taken a lot of motion and effort to pack up the decks on the table within the 2 minutes that Roland was gone, and none of us saw anything of the sort.

That is not necessarily true. When I was in university, I had a job working at a computer store. During a particularly busy evening, someone managed to steal a laptop from a locked display case that has an alarm on in and is situated behind the counter. We didn't even notice until the store closed, because the case was still locked and no alarm had gone off. The friggin' laptop computer just wasn't in it anymore. Foul play by employees was ruled out, so this just goes to show how skilled some of these thieving motherfuckers are. Taking some boxes from a table unnoticed is probably as easy for them as card tricks are for David Copperfield.

Random thought #2.

First off, let me stress that the following situation is not fully similar to this one, but I feel the need to mention it anyway. A year or two ago, at GP Brussels (I think) we met a really nice Asian trader who had a stack of binders about a foot high, containing INSANE asian foil stuff etc. One binder was even filled to the brim with foreignBB duals and even beta ones. Still probably nowhere near what Roland lost, but not exactly nothing, either. Now this guy, who me, Pyro and rvs had known now for all of three minutes, gets a call and tells us he needs to step out. He asks us if we can keep an eye on his stuff, and leaves. For about 15 minutes. Completely out of sight. Now naturally, since we're (basically) nice guys, and were hoping to build a fruitful online trading relationship with this bloke, we complied, and nothing happened. But imagine for a second some wily motherfucker had taken, say, the beta dual binder while we were 'guarding' his stuff...sure, I'd feel bad, but I'd be pretty pissed off if the Asian dude held me responsible. Again, not exactly the same situation, but not fully dissimilar, either. I'm sure this doesn't make anyone feel any better, but what it comes down to, is that preventing stuff like this is always your own responsibiliy. Or in the words of the great F. Mulder: trust noone.

Random though #3

Has anyone told Jacob, who's now on a cross-country road trip, about this terrible incident yet?

Also, it's high time people stop making unfounded accusations. I'm speaking to everyone here. It should be obvious to everyone that the problem is not going to be solved here on these boards. I want Chang to get his stuff back as much as anyone else, but your attitudes are merely going to result in a flamewar. Please stop it before it gets out of hand.

[Magi]

Roland: I do not know you at all.

However, I still feel horrible for what happened to you. Things of this short should not happen to anyone, friend or foe.

I'll notify some dealer friends who still sling the cards. It may not seem like much, but the more people who are aware, the better.

I will pray that you and Jacob get your cards back.

Bram: THANK YOU for coming in and showing HOW A MODERATOR SHOULD ACT in this kind of situation. It was seriously getting dumb and stupid in this thread.

Null Rod: Keep your head high. If you are innocent, everything will work out in the end.

[EnialisLiadon]

So what's the story on the security cameras?  Have/will they yeild anything fruitful?  Were any even in the area of Roland's cards?

They were mentioned, but I want to hear more on what may be the best thing for getting Roland's and Jacob's cards back.

[jcb193]

Fact: This is a tragedy.  Not disputing that. 

However.....I don't understand how anyone (other than a proven thief) is responsible for anything other than the original card owner.

I don't know Null Rod, don't personally know anyone on the thread, but I can't possibly see how anyone would be responsible for anything other than the person (Chang) who left them unattended (presumably to a person who was an "acquaintance.") or Jacob (who permissably lent the cards).

$20,000 is $20,000.....people need to think of magic cards as CASH at all times.....Nobody would leave a stack of cash with an "aquaintance."

That said, I do feel for Chang/Jacob.  However, I don't understand how third and fourth party allegations, presumed judgments and legal arguments (bailment?) have anything to do with this.

Telling some person to "watch my cards" is an implicit risk at all times. 

[Darke]

I think when you start dealing with $20k worth of any item you start thinking in legal terms.

Was a bailment created here? Who knows? But people get sued for far less than $20k all the time in the real world.

[jcb193]

I think when you start dealing with $20k worth of any item you start thinking in legal terms.

Was a bailment created here? Who knows? But people get sued for far less than $20k all the time in the real world.

1.) True, but anyone who has been in the American legal system will quickly realize the profitability of a lawsuit of that level.
2.) I think bailment is much more applicable to Jacob-Chang than Chang-Aquaintance.

/end legal for me

[That0neguy]

Not sure if this will apply to your situation but I rememebr this thread from a while back about insurance covering stolen power.  Hopefully it helps:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=22448.0

[Darke]

And unlike most common law nations the US still tolerates contingency fees for legal work, so profitability of most lawsuits isn't an issue.

[Razvan]

Hi Roland,
I hope you get your stuff back, and if not, check out BurningIce's story about how house insurance paid for the stolen cards. It sucks to start fresh and lose all the memories, but at least you'll be able to do it, and be part of the game.
Also, I will post your original post and a link here on the mtgontario boards. All sorts of wretched scum and villainy find it's way to that hive.
-razvan

edit: http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=73616#73616

[Changster]

**Update**

First of all, I’m sorry to keep you all waiting this long to update and bring you up to speed.  I felt it was necessary to withhold information from the public, especially since I did not know if the thief could be watching my every move online.  I am taking a risk by informing the masses of my progress, but I believe that your feedback can help. 

That said, I want to start by clearing Ici Li of stealing my cards, but he knows and regrets very much that my cards were taken essentially under his watch.  Please do not PM/IM him with threats or accusations.  They are not necessary and finger pointing can only clutter up the thread. 

I am still trying to confirm exactly who banned Ici from Neutral Ground a year ago and why, but I will go by his story that he was caught selling cards at NG, not stealing.  I have grilled him very hard in the last two days only with the intention to find out the truth.  His story checks out completely and after more conversations over the phone, I have come to the conclusion that our stories match up. 

Ici is now completely cooperative with me, outside of the posts on themanadrain.com.  The reason why he had posted harsh words was because of the fact that he had been accused by various people through PMs/IMs ever since the start.  The night after we met on Tuesday, he was emotionally troubled and frustrated, so instead of posting what I asked him to, he did the complete opposite and dug himself an even deeper hole. 

I want to set the record straight that he is a friend of mine and is now working with me on my investigation.  I have to start trusting people even if it includes trusting the easiest suspect in mind.  It was necessary to ruffle him, grill him with questions, and almost befriend him to get the truth out, but we are now at a complete understanding.

There are a couple of leads at the moment. 

----------------------------

In the meantime, all I can do is wait.  I feel that I have covered all of the bases pretty well and slowly I am beginning to discover that I can trust people again.   The investigator at the NYPD called me up yesterday and he will be receiving the facts that I have collected on my own as well as the video tape that may hold the answers. 

I am deeply touched by the talks of donation and financial support from others.  With Ray Robillard (Iamfishman on TMD) hosting a benefit tournament this weekend for Jacob and I, it shows me exactly how much the Vintage/Eternal community can have an impact on everyone’s lives.  I am proud to be a part of this community and there’s no way in hell I would ever consider leaving it.  With all of your support, I have the determination and motivation to continue on playing whilst investigating and searching for the lost cards.

Updates will be posted when I receive more information and feel it is appropriate to post it online or not.  It’s only a matter of time before the culprit(s) screw up and I find out.

I can be reached at:
IM:  Zebrahead222
E-mail:  rkjchang@yahoo.com

I’m keeping my head up because of you guys.  Thanks.

-Roland Chang

[PizzaMan]

Hi.

I'm a brazilian Vintage player.

I'm here to say that all brazilian Magic comunity knows about this sad fact and we'd like you to know that if ANY of these cards appear in South America, you'll be the first one to know.

We all are really sorry about this.

I'm jealous for all the friends you have in there.

They are not only trying to help to find the ones who did it, but also trying to help you get back in the game.

You should be thankfull for them

And for all your friends, congratulations for being such nice guys.

 

[mrieff]

I really hope you get your stuff back, and do check out those possibilities to claim on the insurance.

Menno

[NULLROD]

Thanks, Roland for the clarification. To confirm, Roland and I did indeed have a long conversation last night, and we went over our stories together again. I really appreciate him being open about this and letting the public know about every step of the process. This way, everyone can work together and find out who thief is, watching out for his cards, etc. I encourage everyone to attend iamfishman's tournament, because the funds will be directly donated to Roland and Jacob. I would go, but MA is simply too far away, and I recently sold my deck to fund my other interests. Roland is a good man, and I respect his bravery in this terrible situation. Again, I apologize for my words yesterday as they were said out of frustration and intimidation.

Why Elias would ever accuse me of being banned from Neutral for stealing is beyond me. He is welcome to search the records for himself, as they are written clearly in the Neutral Ground computer database. He is also welcome to ask Dameon, the manager, if I, Ici Li, was ever banned.

The fact that Elias would accuse me of something on an internet forum before he checked it out for himself is completely beyond me, and changes my view towards him entirely. Before I recieve a formal apology from Elias on TMD, I will not rest my case. This not only tarnishes my name for an action I never committed, but everyone knows that selling cards in Neutral is a very common thing, and as such, is much less severe. Sometimes, it's simply a matter of whether or not the invidual is smart about it or not. I have never ever stolen cards in my life, let alone steal from my friends. It was also this inital false accusation that led to Roland and Josh falsely believing that I was the thief in the first place.

[technogeek5000]

NULLROD: ... Ok first off enough with the proffanity. I know it is not against the rules but my 7 year old brother watches me when I am on this website and i do not want him to be exposed to this language. So knock it off.

I am with kowal 100% on this. You have displayed a lack of responsibility for someone elses belongings. This has resulted in a loss of 20,000 dollars,just like jcb said magic cards should be always be considered as cash, and you are the one who was left in charge of the cards. On this kind of matter its always good to think: wat would judge judy say

Kowal: I have the highest respect for you. You are correct about Ici's legal and moral obligations.

All: this thread was made to help recover 20,000 dollars worth of cards... This will not happen if all people do if accuse random people, and that is what this thread is becoming.

[Redookie]

Hey, sorry to hear about ur loss. My buddies and I will definatly be keeping an eye out at our local shops and everything down here in Illinois, I know were pretty far, but it is certainly the least we can do to at least try to help. We personally never spoke or anything but I heard from lots of people that you are a really cool guy, and this sucks so hard that something like this always happens to the nice people. Again I will alert all shops in the area and do my best with anything you need help with. (I'll even keep an eye on ebay) 

[ashiXIII]

I'll be judging a PTQ this weekend in the Philly area. I'll make sure the dealers are aware of the stolen cards. Also, Ici, you're a very, very self-centered person. None of this about you; you're not that important. Get over it.

[Gabethebabe]

@Chang.
You know this better than anybody else now, but that was NOT a smart move, leaving 20K of stuff under the care of someone you obviously didn´t know well enough. Many of us make this error and usually we get away with it, simply because we SHOULD get away with it. But sometimes we don´t, you are not the first and will not be the last person whose deckbox gets stolen. Another example of how important it is that we take care of our valuable cardboard.
When I read your message my spirit went down deeply, as if the cards were stolen from me. I don´t know you and most likely never will, but reading your post hurts to the bone. I symphasize and hope you will recover your stuff, but I´m realistic and I think chances are slim.

@NULLROD.
All has been said already by other people. You are either an accomplice to thievery or you are very, very irresponsible. In the most favorable of cases you are still guilty of what happened, by negligence and stupidity. 20k of cards were stolen and you did what your flavour text says.

@All
Everybody is very sympathetic and all and the word gets spread, but this does not buy much. We are a community of vintage players, we can fucking DO something (like Iamfishman is doing, but only few people of the TMD community can attend his tourney).

How about some dude says: send me all the cards you can miss. Later we auction them off or sell them in a next TMD tourney. It should be useful stuff, obviously, not crap rares that have been sitting forever in your album. I would have no problem chucking some stuff in an envelope and sending it across the ocean. Everybody has a useful card in his trade binder that he can miss. If 100 people send one miserable 10 dollar card, we´re close to a Beta Lotus.

Just an idea.

[Illissius]

<random accusations>
<condemnation of people making random accusations>

[Dxfiler]

To Roland: The first time I got to talk with you was at this past Waterbury.  You were nothing but a class act.  When news came of your cards being stolen, you could hear a pin drop in the room.  I've heard so many horror stories about stolen cards in the past, but your scenario is the worst example of thievery I've ever heard of.  I can't fathom losing what you've personally lost, then Jacob's cards on top of that.  Your reaction to the situation is inspirational and I believe you'll get those cards back. 

To people critcizing Roland about leaving his cards: STFU

There isn't a person I know who plays this game that hasn't left cards in care of someone else, at some point, if even for only a minute.  That's what friends are for.  This isn't meant to sound like a flame, but I don't believe Ici acted like a friend to Roland.  I agree with all the above sentiments regarding Ici not being responsible.  He was at that point in time completely in control of the fate of THOUSANDS of dollars of cards, and he did in fact blow it. 

Whether it was intentional or not, by going up to the counter and grabbing a pen, Ici did in fact play a role in the theft of Roland's cards.  Again, this is not the same as actually stealing them and I'm not pointing fingers.  Assuming Ici is innocent, his neglect was still the source of the thievery. 

If the cards are not found, Ici should absolutely help out Roland monetarily.  If Ici isn't willing to assist monetarily, I'd personally suggest legal action.

Again to Roland: I am sorry for your loss.  Ditto to Jacob.

- Dave Feinstein

[freakish777]

How about some dude says: send me all the cards you can miss. Later we auction them off or sell them in a next TMD tourney. It should be useful stuff, obviously, not crap rares that have been sitting forever in your album. I would have no problem chucking some stuff in an envelope and sending it across the ocean. Everybody has a useful card in his trade binder that he can miss. If 100 people send one miserable 10 dollar card, we´re close to a Beta Lotus.

Just an idea.

I'd be willing to do this.

@Roland, some of the TMD community is not fortunate enough to be able to help you out in terms of replacing or loaning a Mox or Workshop to you but would still like to help you.  How would you want to handle this, should we send cards to a specific address?