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Author Topic: [Single Card Discussion] Black Vise  (Read 10060 times)
netherspirit
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« on: August 06, 2006, 08:44:41 am »

Hey all, I was just wondering about Black Vise. It is an undesputedly powerful card, as I'm sure most of you have found out one way or another. But, why is it never played? Surely in something like Stax, where they often have a fairly high hand count, it would be a good back up kill condition. Equally, it could be a good sideboard card against slower decks such as Fish. Obviously resolving it may at times be easier said than done, but this is Vintage, Force of Will is very common, and would help stop Vise or force it into play, Duress could also do the same, by removing or drawing out their counter cards, or forcing them to discard Vise.

Lets look at the Pros and Cons:

Pros:
1) Cheap to play.
2) Deals damage quickly and effectively.
3) Could be used to bait out counters late game.
4) Once resolved it puts your opponent under pressure to empty their hand.
5) Works well with draw 7s.
6) Tinker/Thirst for Knowledge fodder.

Cons:
1) Restricted.
2) Vulnerable to anti artifact cards.
3) Not so effective against decks that empty their hand early.

Well, those are my arguments for it, if anyone has any I've missed please tell me. So what do you guys think? Why isn't it played? And could it find a way into Vintage?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 08:59:49 am by netherspirit » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 09:37:07 am »

The vast majority of the decks in Vintage are too fast to really care about Black Vise's damage.  The rest of them empty their hands awfully quickly through some means.
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2006, 11:03:53 am »

i think it would do rather well against many vintage decks. artifact destruction isnt really something such a card should worry about, because most players are saving it for something they would think of as a threat. most decks keep there hand full at all times if possible for card advantage, the only few i can think of are uba stax (for use with bazaar) and more casual of decks like elves, goblins, or burn. i am going to try it out because its just one slot in my deck, so its not going to be big deal. i used to use it in my turbo chant deck a few years ago, it owned because my opponent never had the chance to play anything.

i have thought about this card too as being something that wouldnt be half bad against the right decks, its a good first turn drop if you won the roll, it works as a continuous lightning bolt. in my opinion i dont think its a bad card, possibly worth taking up a single slot in several decks with the proper metagme.
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2006, 12:26:47 pm »

This is a fantastic card. I used to play this card almost exclusively - i had a black vise deck for 7 or 8 years, which finally fell apart with Vise's restriction. Here's the problem, Vise is only good as a four-of. You can't just throw it in a deck, because it doesn't really contribute synergy - its an afterthought. Yes, tinker and thirst both combo with it, and yes you can weld it in and out, but there are a lot of other artifacts that would be more useful. Vise is a horrible card to see midgame, as the opponent almost never have a full mitt, and if they do, they can probably drop it down relatively easily. Vise needs to hit the table 1st turn and be supported with control the next turn. If Vise is not the focal point of the deck (which it cant be since they neutered it), its just a card that at best may do a few points of damage.

Honestly, mid-game, you're better off dropping and ankh of mishra and then stripping/wasteing/armaggedoning. that'll net you more damage and hurt your opponent much more, though i dont really recommend it as far too much can go wrong that will hurt you as well.
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2006, 03:22:28 pm »

Black Vise is not powerful at all in today's Vintage. I'd rather have Rotting Giant.
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2006, 07:47:55 pm »

If it was a 4-of I could see it being powerful by building the deck around it. all you would have to do is prevent them from playing spells. I would think in a stax type frame.
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2006, 11:52:17 pm »

I would never put 4 Black Vices into my maindeck.  If anything, side 4 in on the play.  IF that had merit, but we'll never know.
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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006, 03:26:01 am »

If it was a 4-of I could see it being powerful by building the deck around it. all you would have to do is prevent them from playing spells. I would think in a stax type frame.
I have a Black Vise deck, and even though it's restricted it still works ridiculously well, and the deck has never lost yet. Razz
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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 08:37:30 am »

Black Vise is an amazing card turn 1 on the play and is a great card vs control if you can get it to stick in the first 2 or 3 turns, but if you're only running 1 you can't rely on it early game and you probably need the slots for other things.  any time you could be tinkering for vise you could be tinkering for DSC or some other more powerful artifact and just winning the game now.
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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2006, 09:33:13 am »

Black Vise is not powerful at all in today's Vintage. I'd rather have Rotting Giant.

The question is, if Wizards printed a 3/3 creature for 1 mana, would it be worthy of restriction?
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2006, 10:10:20 am »

Just because it would(or could) be powerful if unrestricted doesn't mean it shouldn't be unrestricted.  Unless I am grossly misjudging its' power level there would still be tons of better unrestricted cards. 

Cards don't get restricted because they are powerful, they get restricted because they are broken or in special cases powerful "un-fun" cards get restricted (trinisphere). 

I don't think black vise would prove to be "broken".  The closest cards to restriction are probably, grim tutor, thirst for knowledge and gift's ungiven (Only because I can't see them restricting the architype cards [Workshop, Drain, Oath, FoW, Ritual, Dragon, etc]) and I honestly don't see them getting restricted any time soon.  I would be shocked if Black Vise was even close to any of that stuff.

The restricted list should be cleaned up.  There is alot that could come off without shaking up the format anymore then a new set does.

The question is, if Wizards printed a 3/3 creature for 1 mana, would it be worthy of restriction?

It might depend on color.  Obviously a green or red 3/3 for 1 mana would be less worthy of restriction then a blue 3/3 for 1 mana.  Personally I think it would drastically change the vintage metagame, in green it would probably bring aggro to tier 1 or tier 1.5.  In blue it would make a fish like control/disruption deck automatically tier 1 and probably the best deck in the format.  When aggro is able to play 3/3s (or 4/4s) it ruins alot of the most common aggro answers in the format(massacre & pyroclasm) making not only aggro's clock faster but also forcing players to run slower/worse/less efficient removal.  I can just imagine a UW fish deck now with 3/3 for 1 blue, jotun grunts, meddling mages, FoWs/Daze/MisD/etc gold fishing on turn 3-4 with all the control elements it has no  If it was colorless artifact creature then I think it would have to be restricted 100%.  In a shop deck you would be able to play basically all of the ones in your hand turn 1.  Even worse I think it would become a 4 of even in control decks.  Making basically every non-oath, non-combo deck in the format playing them.  Even then it might kill oath as it probably will goldfish faster, especially with something that stalls oath like bounce or stifle.

Does a new card that will drastically change the vintage metagame get automatically restricted? (If it was combo, control or prison I would say yes, but aggro? they might want to revive aggro or boost aggro control)  Also would they ever print a card that would need to be automatically banned if every other format?
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 11:41:54 am »

Black Vise is not powerful at all in today's Vintage. I'd rather have Rotting Giant.

The question is, if Wizards printed a 3/3 creature for 1 mana, would it be worthy of restriction?

Nimble Mongoose isn't restricted.
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 12:02:59 pm »

Nimble Mongoose isn't restricted.

I've been hit for 1 more often then 3, when facing nimble mongeese (Yeah, yeah it CAN be spelled mongooses aswell, i just prefer mongeese Wink)

And i hardly think a 3/3 for 1 would have to be restricted....Black vise is another thing...its pretty annoying, but i'm not sure if its worthy of being on the list.

/Zeus
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 06:34:37 pm »

If they unrestrict Strip Mine, and possibly Balance, then Black Vise would be pretty good. Otherwise, I can't see it being played.
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2006, 08:43:55 pm »

Rogue Elephant is not restricted.

Unrestricted Black Vice would only be viable in red based aggro decks as reusable damage against control decks or a vintage remake of Owling Mine.  I doubt these decks would be tier one.  In prison decks there are much better threats available.  Black vice is too risky to run in any deck as it could just be a dead card against many decks.
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2006, 09:55:50 am »

Alright, let me clarify that.  If Wizards printed a 3/3 for one COLORLESS mana, with no drawbacks like Rogue Elephant's, would it be deemed worthy of restriction?
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2006, 11:10:02 am »

How about add haste and shadow?  maybe. 

Its one of those 4 or 0 cards, thats only really powerful in your opening hand.  If you would be running Vise, you would want to run 4, if your not running 4 then you shouldn't run any.  So haveing it restricted more or less makes it very weak, and more or less puts it on the ban list. 

Turn 1 land, mox, chalice for 0, Vice x2 ?  doesn't seem all that "interactive"
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2006, 12:28:10 pm »

Alright, let me clarify that.  If Wizards printed a 3/3 for one COLORLESS mana, with no drawbacks like Rogue Elephant's, would it be deemed worthy of restriction?

But the problem there is that Black Vise DOES have a restriction to it, in that the creature would do 1 less damage for each card in hand under 7. Maybe I'm not understanding you here. A creature that was a 3/3 for 1 with no drawbacks would not likely be restricted IN VINTAGE but it would be pretty busted in other decks. I don't see how that would apply here though.

Black Vise was originally a problem because you could easily deal 10 damage with it if it landed early because early Magic didn't have much acceleration (play Shandalar with 4 Vises and you'll see what I mean). Today, I don't see Vise doing much as a restricted card and as an unrestricted card, it could possibly be in a Fish deck. Vise was also a huge problem back in T2 thanks to Vise Age and Necro with 4 Stripmines and Sinkholes.

I'd be up for unrestricted Vise, but that goes back to something JP pointed out a long time ago-- lots of casual players use the Vintage list as their house rules for gaming. While Vise doesn't hurt competitive Vintage, 4 of them really hammers casual decks and it fits into just about everything too. Since we aren't in a position to say that competitive Vintage is the only form of Vintage to look at, it pays to be mindful that 4 Vises unleashes a lot of problems on casual players and makes them very unhappy. Just putting that out there.
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2006, 12:29:45 pm »

Alright, let me clarify that.  If Wizards printed a 3/3 for one COLORLESS mana, with no drawbacks like Rogue Elephant's, would it be deemed worthy of restriction?

I think it would be worthy of restriction, it would be played 4 of in nearly every non-combo deck in the format.
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2006, 12:47:56 pm »

There are plenty of busted tricks out there right now.  Chalice being the main concern.
I would gladly run this in a shop deck.

turn 1: Shop, Vise, Null Rod -> go. (at least you can still play moxen)
turn 1: Shop, Vise, Sphere of Resistance -> go. (again you can chain cast your mox to avoid damage).
turn 1: Land, Chalice for 0, Vize -> go.
turn 1: Shop, Mox, Vise, Trinisphere -> go.

turn 1: Shop, double vise, Chalice for 0 -> go?
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2006, 01:11:29 pm »

I'd be up for unrestricted Vise, but that goes back to something JP pointed out a long time ago-- lots of casual players use the Vintage list as their house rules for gaming. While Vise doesn't hurt competitive Vintage, 4 of them really hammers casual decks and it fits into just about everything too. Since we aren't in a position to say that competitive Vintage is the only form of Vintage to look at, it pays to be mindful that 4 Vises unleashes a lot of problems on casual players and makes them very unhappy. Just putting that out there.
Hi Val, I must disagree, I play A LOT of casual magic, and to be honest not a lot of people really care about how many Vises you have in your deck. Not a lot of people have access to particularly broken cards, so not many people care about the B/R list. Casual magic takes a lot of forms, and play groups often ban cards of their choice if they're causing problems. So I don't feel the unrestricition of Vise would be much of a problem to casual players.
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2006, 01:19:33 pm »

Last time i played casual against a guy with vises, he was playing 4 vises and 4 strips, and still lost every game.....

/Zeus
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2006, 02:17:00 pm »

Last time i played casual against a guy with vises, he was playing 4 vises and 4 strips, and still lost every game.....

/Zeus
Says enough about his playing. Razz Seriously though, that proves what I meant about people not caring how many Vises you use.
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2006, 04:18:56 pm »

Hi Val, I must disagree, I play A LOT of casual magic, and to be honest not a lot of people really care about how many Vises you have in your deck. Not a lot of people have access to particularly broken cards, so not many people care about the B/R list. Casual magic takes a lot of forms, and play groups often ban cards of their choice if they're causing problems. So I don't feel the unrestricition of Vise would be much of a problem to casual players.
Quote

That's interesting because I've seen groups where people don't play Gush and think that Dark Ritual is restricted : ) I guess it tells about how casual groups use the B&R lists differently.

I don't think a lot of decks would run this hypothetical creature because it doesn't fit in with their strategy. Fastbond is also a ridiculous card but I don't see Dragon, for example, running it just because it's absurd to play on the first turn. What we are talking about is a vanilla creature that takes seven turns to kill an opponent. That wouldn't be broken at all, compared to the dorks we play with right now do.
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2006, 10:12:56 am »

I think vise warps the metagame by making card advantage based control strategies unviable.  Whether we've reached that point in vintage through the natural evolution of the metagame is a seperate issue, but I think CS would have a rough time if it couldn't have 6,7 or 8 cards in hand on it's upkeep.
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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2006, 11:35:31 am »

I've built a deck with 4 Black Vise in it before, and I'll attest to the fact that Vise as a kill condition, with a deck based around it, is really scary.  If you can drop even two on your first turn, you set your opponent back a long way, and in Vintage it's so much easier to refill their hand with Wheel of Fortune, Time Twister, and the like.  It's not so much that a single Black Vise is over powered, it's just that starting off the game with a six or even three life advantage can sometimes be game swinging, and a deck that could be optimized to do six or nine damage is incredibly powerful. 

Restricted Black Vise just isn't a certain enough source of damage to be Vintage viable.  Combo races it, control hates it out, and other decks can play around it.

Not to open another can of worms, but Dream Halls has a similar problem.  As a one-of it's not good enough to see play, but as a four-of it's probably restrictable.
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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2006, 02:06:34 pm »

dreamhalls costs UU3 and doesn't win the game by itself, it's a good card but the deck ends up having to put an enchantment that costs 5 into play on turn 1-3 consistently with 3-4 cards still in hand to win many games.  conversely vise is almost always good on turn 1, especially vs control.
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2006, 03:02:40 pm »

Quote
I think vise warps the metagame by making card advantage based control strategies unviable.  Whether we've reached that point in vintage through the natural evolution of the metagame is a seperate issue, but I think CS would have a rough time if it couldn't have 6,7 or 8 cards in hand on it's upkeep.
Vise is not as powerful as you suggest, especially as a one of.  Control decks typically have a way of dealing with threats due to large amounts of draw and search, not to mention countermagic.  There are tons of ways to deal with a one casting cost artifact - (powderkeg, engineered explosives, echoing truth, etc.)
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« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2006, 03:16:36 pm »

I'm pretty sure thqt Dream Halls is garbage any way you cut it.  That card was dangerous in Type 2 during the days of Tempest Block, and you could play 4 Mana Vault in Type 2 back then, so it WAS pretty nuts.  The problem with that card is that it's symmetrical and costs a billion mana.  Do you want to spend your hard earned mana on something that makes your opponet's cards all amazing?  When I discard my dark ritual and play bargain, you're going to cry. 

How would you even try to abuse Dream Halls now?  You could try to get it out fast with Academy Rector, but hell, you could do that NOW, and nobody's doing that because you could use BARGAIN.  You could also use Replenish which has similar problems. 

Dream Halls was considered dangerous in the wake of Urza's Block which spit out like a billion broken cards.  I'm pretty sure that it's safe now. 

Black Vise on the other hand makes annoying aggro decks better, and I'd rather see less of all that.
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2006, 04:36:48 pm »

At best its a lightning bolt if you play it turn 1.

Vintage decks don't keep enough cards in hand to make it worth playing.
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