NULLROD
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« on: August 09, 2006, 10:09:01 am » |
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1) Black Lotus 2) Ancestral Recall 3) Mox Sapphire 4) Time Walk 5) Mana Crypt 6) Sol Ring 7) Mox Jet 8) Mox Ruby 9) Mox Emerald 10) Mox Pearl 11) Tinker 12) Yawgmoth's Will
Yes, believe it or not, mana crypt is fundamentally better than Sol Ring or any of the other moxes. Although Tinker and Yawg's Will are great cards, they still don't even cut into the top 10 cards that are considered the staple of the staple in vintage. A look of recent decklists from waterbury or SCG will verify this claim. What do you guys think?
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Dr. Teeth
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 10:34:49 am » |
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I think you are missing many other things, like brainstorm, mana drain, workshops, dark rituals and such.
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« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 11:13:24 am by Dr. Teeth »
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Team PFP!
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Anusien
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 10:47:10 am » |
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I'm really curious how you decided on that list. First thing, while Mana Crypt is more powerful than Sol Ring, it's questionable whether it's better; after the initial turn, they both produce the same amount of mana, and Sol Ring doesn't Shock you every turn. This is a very weird list; putting Time Walk above some of the better Moxen.
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Magic Level 3 Judge Southern USA Regional Coordinator The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
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zeus-online
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 10:52:21 am » |
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I think you're seriosly underrating Tinker and Will.
/Zeus
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NULLROD
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 11:09:12 am » |
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Tinker and Will are included in decks that already have all of the above.
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forests failed you
De Stijl
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 11:52:19 am » |
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Disagree so much
Lotus Mana Crypt Mox Sapphire Mox Jet Mox Ruby Mox Emerald Mox Pearl
TIme Walk Force of Will Yawgmoth's Will Ancestral Recall Tinker Tolerian Academy Mishra's Workshop Sol Ring
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Grand Prix Boston 2012 Champion Follow me on Twitter: @BrianDeMars1
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Razvan
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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 12:15:53 pm » |
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The only way this question can properly be answered is via a Phil Stanton-like analysis on frequency of a card in top-X (where x = 1->oo), on all decks.
Black Lotus > * though.
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Insult my mother, insult my sister, insult my girlfriend... but never ever use the words "restrict" and "Workshop" in the same sentence...
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Yare
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 02:54:52 pm » |
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Perhaps this thread should just be titled "the top X number of staples, period" rather than "the top X staples in vintage, in this order." Although if the list extends too long, then it will end up resembling the "dissection of expansions" thread (which I guess isn't necessarily a bad thing).
If we end up not taking that suggestion, Yawgmoth's Will is definitely top 2, the other choice being Black Lotus.
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M.Solymossy
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 03:10:00 pm » |
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Honestly, I think we can cut the power 8, because those are OBVIOUS staples.
my top 10 staples: 1) Demonic tutor 2) Vampiric tutor 3) Yawgmoths Will 4) Tinker 5) Force of wil 6) Mana Drain 7) Dark Ritual 8) Mishra's workshop 9) Imperial Seal 10) Bazaar of Baghdad
Reasoning: 1) Demonic tutor is played in almost every deck. 5C Stax, Slaver, Gifts, any combo deck. This card is the absolute balls. 2) Vampiric tutor is the same as Demonic tutor, but not as useful because of the topdeck-tutor roll. 3) Yawgmoths Will: This card wouldn't be as busted without demonic tutor/vampiric tutor, but it's still REDICULOUS, but yet, Stax hasn't really abused this card yet. It's also only useful after you've played a bunch of spells. 4) Tinker is played in every deck ever, so it makes #4. 5) Force of will Tops mana drain because of it's staple use in non-grimlong combo (IT, Pitchlong, TPS) 6) Mana Drain makes it over shops and ritual because it allows you to actually STOP your opponent from winning the game. 7) Dark Ritual makes the cut here, ONLY because of #3) Yawgmoths Will. 8) Shops arn't really as useful as they should be, in part because you can't stop your opponent from beating you with them, and they're most often times REALLY bad against drains. 9) I think Imperial Seal makes it over bazaar, because nobody really has realized this card's utility. I love it in Gifts, Slaver, Stax, Dragon, and combo. 10) Bazaar makes the cut, but is last, because it's not being abused in many decks. This card climbs the ranks, however as combo and stax figure out more ways to abuse the card.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Tabasco
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 04:56:33 pm » |
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I like how people forget about Brainstorm + fetchland...
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Dominik
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 08:35:06 pm » |
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Don't know if anyone noticed this, but morphling.de has stats for the most used cards in vintage for each month.
Here's the top 50 for June:
Place. Name (amount/decks/per_deck)
1. Force of Will (292/73/4.0) 2. Brainstorm (254/66/3.8) 3. Polluted Delta (214/69/3.1) 4. Underground Sea (164/59/2.8) 5. Flooded Strand (149/67/2.2) 6. Duress (145/49/3.0) 7. Mana Drain (144/39/3.7) 8. Wasteland (139/40/3.5) 9. Chalice of the Void (109/29/3.8) 10. Volcanic Island (106/42/2.5) 11. Thirst for Knowledge (98/25/3.9) 12. Goblin Welder (95/29/3.3) 13. Tormod's Crypt (88/51/1.7) 14. Ancestral Recall (82/82/1.0) 15. Mox Sapphire (80/80/1.0) 16. Mox Pearl (79/79/1.0) 17. Black Lotus (78/78/1.0) 18. Mox Jet (78/78/1.0) 19. Mox Emerald (77/77/1.0) 20. Swords to Plowshares (76/31/2.5) 21. Dark Confidant (75/20/3.8) 22. Mox Ruby (74/74/1.0) 23. Sol Ring (71/71/1.0) 24. Time Walk (66/66/1.0) 25. Demonic Tutor (63/63/1.0) 26. Tundra (63/18/3.5) 27. Mana Crypt (62/62/1.0) 28. Mishra's Workshop (62/16/3.9) 29. Dark Ritual (61/16/3.8) 30. Red Elemental Blast (61/31/2.0) 31. Rack and Ruin (57/28/2.0) 32. Strip Mine (54/54/1.0) 33. Stifle (53/20/2.6) 34. Tinker (53/53/1.0) 35. Vampiric Tutor (53/53/1.0) 36. Mana Vault (52/52/1.0) 37. Tolarian Academy (52/52/1.0) 38. Mana Leak (50/16/3.1) 39. Energy Flux (49/18/2.7) 40. Gifts Ungiven (49/17/2.9) 41. Pithing Needle (49/25/2.0) 42. Lotus Petal (48/48/1.0) 43. Chain of Vapor (47/38/1.2) 44. Echoing Truth (47/38/1.2) 45. Tendrils of Agony (47/31/1.5) 46. Sundering Titan (45/41/1.1) 47. Crucible of Worlds (44/24/1.8) 48. Pyroclasm (44/27/1.6) 49. Tangle Wire (44/12/3.7) 50. Triskelion (43/32/1.3)
That said, it's really hard to make a list like this without analyzing statistical evidence. Different archetypes obviously have different staples, and it all depends what the meta is like or what kind of decks you like to play. For example, a fish list would probably go like (in no particular order):
1. Wasteland / Strip Mine 2. Walk/Recall 3. Null Rod / Chalice
....
......
Now I'm even confusing myself here. Should I go into U/W or should I incorporate SS here too (considering the recent popularity of it)? Is Meddling Mage higher or lower than Dark Confidant? Are they even on the list? See, and that's just one archetype that I was trying to analyze (albeit a pretty broad one, but my point remains)...
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-Dominik Team Blitzkrieg: The Vintage Lightning War.You don't take damage from the Arabian City of Brass. You Suffer that damage.
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Mind_under_Matter
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 08:48:17 pm » |
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1)Black Lotus 2)Mox Sapphire 3)Mox Jet 4)Yawgmoth's Will 5)Force of Will 6)Mox Ruby 7)Polluted Delta 8)Tinker 9)Sol Ring 10)Undecided (Tendrils, Brainstorm, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, the other two moxen, or Tinker could easily fill this slot)
Each of these cards has a home in a great number of decks, and almost all of these decks could get by with 3/5 moxen. It's not going to be optimal, but a staples list isn't looking at optimal deck configurations, it's looking at what cards are the most necessary to play the widest range of decks in any given format.
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So in conclusion, creatures are bad. Play blue cards instead. -Dr. Sylvan
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BigMac
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2006, 04:24:14 am » |
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If you want to make a good list of that top 50, you should divide the total number of cards played divided by 4. All decks played black lotus. That to me is a score of 100%. The other cards will probably never hit the 100% mark or it should be ancestral recall.
Everybody would play 4 black lotus when you could. That is a good criterium for me.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2006, 06:40:28 am » |
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These numbers are not what the poster claims them to be... here's why:
1. Force of Will (292/73/4.0) 2. Brainstorm (254/66/3.8)
Ok so... We have a grouping of decks lets call it group S. Group S is the set of decks sampled for the purpose of this list. Lets look at the first line. What information do we gain? Of all CARDS in Group S, 292 of them were Force of will. Of all DECKS in Group S, 73 of them had 1, 2, 3, or 4 Force of Wills in the deck. Therefore we can derive that of all decks running at least 1 Force of Will, They were all Running 4 Forces of will ( 292/73 = 4 ).
Can we therefore conclude that all decks in Group S had 4 force of wills???? Big -N-O-
Here is the part that is the most skewed: 14. Ancestral Recall (82/82/1.0) 15. Mox Sapphire (80/80/1.0) 16. Mox Pearl (79/79/1.0) 17. Black Lotus (78/78/1.0)
Firstly, off the bat, the "number per deck" will never be any number other than 1.0 ... unless someone was running 2 (or 1/2) of a restricted card. Secondly, it shows that while 82 decks ran ancestral, and 79 decks ran Mox Pearl, only 78 decks ran lotus. So now we can conclude that price is a factor in this list.
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NULLROD
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2006, 07:27:17 am » |
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A Phil Stanton type of analysis would not be applicable here because of the prices. Yes, I totally agree with Harlequin in this. Just because a card is very played does not mean that it is a staple that is imperative of the game, as the black lotus results show. Cards like DT and Vamp and Mystical will never make Top 15 of this list because they are good solely because of the presence of other much more broken cards. The list should be like this:
1) Black Lotus
. . . (huge gap)
2) Ancestral Recall
(big gap)
3) Mox Sapphire 4) Time Walk 5) Mana Crypt 6) Mox Jet 7) Mox Ruby 8) Mox Emerald 9) Mox pearl
(big gap)
10) Tinker 11) Yawgmoth's Will
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 09:02:04 am by NULLROD »
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The M.E.T.H.O.D
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2006, 07:45:11 am » |
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I think your right there but in general when you label a card a "staple" it should be seeing a lot of play otherwise we are all missing out playing with them.  There are more staple cards then anyone has listed in this thread and their order of importance should be judged with a lot more then the narrow criteria (if any) you guys are using. It might be better to list the top ten staples by category, such as tutor, fast mana, draw, etc. And then one can have a better understading of what the vintage staples in terms of their functions as well as a list could actually be useful in a thread I kinda feel is pointless at this place in time (im not trying to start confronation though). Oh and i'd always want Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, or DT in my deck (if applicable) over lets say mox pearl. ALWAYS.. No Really! 
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Dominik
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2006, 09:32:43 am » |
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I think your right there but in general when you label a card a "staple" it should be seeing a lot of play otherwise we are all missing out playing with them.  There are more staple cards then anyone has listed in this thread and their order of importance should be judged with a lot more then the narrow criteria (if any) you guys are using. It might be better to list the top ten staples by category, such as tutor, fast mana, draw, etc. And then one can have a better understading of what the vintage staples in terms of their functions as well as a list could actually be useful in a thread I kinda feel is pointless at this place in time (im not trying to start confronation though). Oh and i'd always want Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, or DT in my deck (if applicable) over lets say mox pearl. ALWAYS.. No Really!  This would probably make the best list. We could have: Fast Mana (Ritual, Lotus, Jewellry, etc) Draw/Card Advantage/similar (Ancestral, BS, and now Dark Confidant) Mana Denial (Null Rod, Chalice, Wastes, Mox Monkey) Broken Winning (Tinker, Yawg Will, Necro, Yawg Bargain, Desire) Tutors/Set-up Cards (Gifts, Intuition, Demonic, Top-deck Tutors) Tinker Targets  (Colossus, Memory Jar, Lotus, etc) - I don't know if this should have it's own category though Lands (Basics -these are tech nowadays-, fetches, blue duals, other duals, gemstone mine, city of brass, bazaar, workshop, mishra's factory, wastes) Graveyard Disruption (Jotun Grunt, Crypt, Planar Void, Leyline, etc) ....and so forth Perhaps someone can continue my list for me? 
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-Dominik Team Blitzkrieg: The Vintage Lightning War.You don't take damage from the Arabian City of Brass. You Suffer that damage.
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