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Author Topic: vs Stax  (Read 2079 times)
ZeroGs
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« on: August 17, 2006, 11:42:48 am »

This post is basically to try to get some insight on my matchup (Meandeck Gifts, (rebuild and chain main)) versus ubastax, stax, staxless stax. I have pretty much figured out how to play against Grim long, oath, fish, CS, and I know how to board accordingly. Though I always find my matchup against anything with tanglewires pretty difficult. My Question is what should be in my SB, right now I have 3 pihing needle, 1 chain of vapor, 1 hurkyls recall, and 1 rack and ruin. Is that enough? what should be boarded in on the play or draw, is there any sort of tips/tricks on getting the upper hand when having to tap during your upkeep?


Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 07:52:10 am »

lose the chain and put in another R&R
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meadbert
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 10:13:40 am »

I have experience with Uba Stax so I can speak from the other side of the aisle.

Meandeck Gifts does not run Welder Removal.  It opts to maindeck bounce instead.  I think this is actually the right decision and is why in my opinion Meandeck Gifts has the better Uba Stax matchup.  The other reason is that Merchant Scroll and in particular Gifts itself are much better under Uba than Thirst for Knowledge is.

Because Meandeck Gifts does not main deck Welder Removal, going for the Tinker->DSC win is much tougher.  Sure you can cast Will empty your graveyard of artifacts and then Tinker RFGing your sacked artifact but it is generally pretty tough.  Playing against Uba Stax you want to go for the Tendrils win.

Rack and Ruin is not so useful.  The problem is that it costs red and you don't want to fetch out a Volcanic Island if you don't have to.  Also an untapped Welder can Weld out one of your targets and then the spell is countered.

Another problem is if you are locked under a Tanglewire you won't want to play and sit on a fetch land.  Once it is tapped to Wire it is wasteland bait.  Now if you are under Uba  Lock and you top Deck R&R you have no red sources so it is welded out before you can play it.

I would say Rebuild is much better.  Rebuild can be played under Uba Lock and under a Tangle Wire.

Chain is also useful for helping the Tendrils Victory and it is cheaper than Rebuild.  Chain can still bounce all of your artifact mana so you can replay them.

Do not underestimate the importance of Bouncing Smokestacks.  Games against Uba Stax run long and Smokestack becomes super relevent.  It is nice if you can let it resolve.  Then a turn later sack mox that is under Null Rod anyway.  Then Chain it.  Then let him replay it.  Then he waits a turn.  Anyway like 5 turns can go by and all you lost was like a pointless mox that will come back whenever you cast Will Anyway.

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 10:46:40 am »

I have experience with Uba Stax so I can speak from the other side of the aisle.

Because Meandeck Gifts does not main deck Welder Removal, going for the Tinker->DSC win is much tougher.  Sure you can cast Will empty your graveyard of artifacts and then Tinker RFGing your sacked artifact but it is generally pretty tough.  Playing against Uba Stax you want to go for the Tendrils win.

Actually, I would say you are 100% wrong here.  While they don't have welder removal, like you stated, most decks playing against UbaStax would win MUCH more if they went for the fastest Tinker humanly possible (for Trike or Colossus) meaning use any tutor you can to find tinker and cast it turn 2/3.  Save your force/drain for the welder.  Thats it.  Tinker is my worst enemy, and anyone who plays first turn blue mana/mox and mysticals for recall instead of tinker is my best friend.  And I apparently have a lot of best friends.

It should be fairly difficult to go for the Tendrils kill with all the lock pieces bearing down on you unless you can get off a few quick massive artifact bounce/destruction spells.  I would always go for the Colossus kill against UbaStax.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 11:02:32 am »

I agree with Yespuhyren. Also, this statement is wrong.



Rack and Ruin is not so useful.  The problem is that it costs red and you don't want to fetch out a Volcanic Island if you don't have to.  Also an untapped Welder can Weld out one of your targets and then the spell is countered.
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meadbert
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2006, 02:23:27 pm »

I have experience with Uba Stax so I can speak from the other side of the aisle.

Because Meandeck Gifts does not main deck Welder Removal, going for the Tinker->DSC win is much tougher.  Sure you can cast Will empty your graveyard of artifacts and then Tinker RFGing your sacked artifact but it is generally pretty tough.  Playing against Uba Stax you want to go for the Tendrils win.

Actually, I would say you are 100% wrong here.  While they don't have welder removal, like you stated, most decks playing against UbaStax would win MUCH more if they went for the fastest Tinker humanly possible (for Trike or Colossus) meaning use any tutor you can to find tinker and cast it turn 2/3.  Save your force/drain for the welder.  Thats it.  Tinker is my worst enemy, and anyone who plays first turn blue mana/mox and mysticals for recall instead of tinker is my best friend.  And I apparently have a lot of best friends.

It should be fairly difficult to go for the Tendrils kill with all the lock pieces bearing down on you unless you can get off a few quick massive artifact bounce/destruction spells.  I would always go for the Colossus kill against UbaStax.

Mystical Tutoring for a second Turn Tinker is a usually a strong move on the play.  On the draw it gets worse.  That said I still fear Rebuild.  Even with a ramped Smokestack, Tanglewire and Uba Mask if they have a third Island out during their upkeep they can bounce everything, replay all their moxes, Drop an Underground Sea and play Will for the win. 

The difference here might be Meandeck Gifts versus other Gifts.  In the old Flamevault Gifts you had Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal that could all grab Tinker for you.  They can of course also grab other win conditions.  Gifts is more of a late game Tutor and you can win quite easily without it.

Meandeck Gifts does not run many of those tutors.  I think Steve's list did not run Vamp or Imperial Seal.  The more common way to find win conditions is to actually Gifts for them.  In this case I find Gifts players are better off grabbing a Tendrils enabling pile rather than a Tinker Pile.

On the play you keep a hand of Island, Fetch, Emerald, Mystical, Gifts, Force, Merchant Scroll.  What do you do?  Lets say you decide to go the Tinker route.  You drop Island, Emerald and Pass.  Now Uba Stax attempts to play a Smokestack on their turn.  You have three permanents in your hand.  You will be drawing a Tinker so you won't add to your permanent count there.  Turn 3 you sack one permanent.  Turn 4 you sack two more.  You know your turn 2 draw won't add to your permanent count and your turn 4 draw is too late so your only chance to draw into a fourth permanent is your turn 3 draw.  Does a deck that runs 25 permanents take that risk?  What if Uba drops a Chalice @0, now your permanent count is even lower.  You can counter Smokestack, but now you are vulnerable to a turn 2 Welder.  It all seems risky to me.

I am interested in what people think the correct play is in the above situation.  Would it be better to open with Scroll->Recall, Scroll->Drain or Scroll->Rebuild?

Regarding Rack and Ruin.  Clearly I don't understand the card.  I thought that if on resolution a target was illegal then the spell is countered.  Do all of the targets have to be illegal?
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scutakicker
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2006, 03:17:57 pm »

As long as at least one of the targets remain legal upon resolution the spell resolves. If all targets become invalid then the spell fizzles.
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Arctanis
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2006, 03:46:29 pm »

Quote
Actually, I would say you are 100% wrong here.  While they don't have welder removal, like you stated, most decks playing against UbaStax would win MUCH more if they went for the fastest Tinker humanly possible (for Trike or Colossus) meaning use any tutor you can to find tinker and cast it turn 2/3.  Save your force/drain for the welder.  Thats it.  Tinker is my worst enemy, and anyone who plays first turn blue mana/mox and mysticals for recall instead of tinker is my best friend.  And I apparently have a lot of best friends.

It should be fairly difficult to go for the Tendrils kill with all the lock pieces bearing down on you unless you can get off a few quick massive artifact bounce/destruction spells.  I would always go for the Colossus kill against UbaStax

I'd have to agree with this perspective here.  I also think the best way to deal with Stax is to keep welders off the table at all costs.  Welders are what make the deck function.  A well timed rebuild or chain can allow you the time you need to win.
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meadbert
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006, 10:36:35 pm »

I strongly disagree about Welder making the deck function.  No doubt Welder is a strong card in Uba Stax, but the deck is perfectly happy to play Welderless.  This is why Chalice@1 is so strong.

If you plan is to go for the Tinker->DSC win then it is find to counter Welder, but I find Tinker->DSC to be inferior.

The better plan is Rebuild Tendrils.  This gets under Tangle Wire and Uba Mask.  Basically the only cards Uba Stax runs that stops it is Smokestack and Strip Mine with Crucible.

Using Gifts to get Tinker and Timewalk is a poor strategy.  Tangle Wire and Smokestack make walk much worse and Stax has plenty of ways to deal with Tinker.  You have Smokestack to make you sack it.  Tanglewire to tap it for a few turns.  Duplicant RFGs it.  Finally Welder welds it out. 
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Dakkon
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 10:43:11 pm »

What is a good tendrils kill gift pile?
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meadbert
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 09:44:58 am »

Well I am terrible at playing Gifts so I am not the right person to ask about that.  You need a way to play bounce and a way to play Will.  Generally Stax has out multiple lock components and possible Chalice @1 so you want Rebuild.  You want access to Will and Burning Wish and then the trick is to get some colored mana sources if you have to recoup Will.  After that you want as much artifact mana as possible.  When going for a Will Kill obviously Black Lotus is best, but Lotus Petal comes next since you can use it twice (pre+post will) and get two different colors out of it if need be.

If you have drawn into bounce sometimes you don't need Will at all.  You can just bounce artifacts, play them back.  Play Burning Wish for Tendrils and play Tendrils.  That is more likely if Stax has significant damage.

Sometimes you use two Gifts piles. 

Someone else can answer this better I am sure.
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