Night's Whisper Control Slaver

[The Atog Lord]

I wanted to give an account of my latest build of Control Slaver. While I myself have not won anything with this build, my teammate Kowal has won several pieces of power with it. Now I know how Brassman feels. Further, a similar deck has done well at the Gencon World Championships from what I've been told.

Night's Whisper Control Slaver is regular Control Slaver, but instead of playing as many utility spells as CS, NWCS plays Night's Whisper. So, why this card? Why bother running this small draw spell? It draws fewer than Skeletal Scrying most of the time, doesn't pitch to Force of Will, and is a sorcery.

The build is based on several pages of theory that I wrote on the Reflection boards. Instead of copying and pasting, I'll go over the main points of theory that lead to the creation of the deck.

Matt discussed the concept of flow with me -- that is, the concept that a deck using its mana every turn and therefore doing something every turn is functioning more properly than a deck which does not utilize all of its mana every turn. This, for instance, is the theory on which Gro decks rest. Cantrips draw into cantrips, and therefore Gro is able to use all of its mana every turn; this concept is even taken a step further in Gro decks because of their low mana count.

Control Slaver, on the other hand, oftentimes does not flow as well. It often leaves open mana and does not use it. This is in some respects true of most control decks; if a deck leaves open mana for a Mana Drain, and does not cast that Mana Drain, that mana is wasted unless it has another instant to play. The problem of wasting potential mana is even worse in Control Slaver, however. Control Slaver plays four to six large artifacts which, while capable of ending the game, also have the tendency to sit uselessly in hand until several turns have passed.

Thinking about what Matt said, and agreeing that Flow is an important concept for a deck, I reflected that Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge both help Control Slaver to flow better. Thirst for Knowledge makes having a large artifact in hand an advantage. Brainstorm is even better, as it not only hides artifacts but also helps the deck to smooth out its draws.

I would like to point out one more fundamental difference between Brainstorm and Thirst in Control Slaver, beyond the obvious differences. Brainstorm does something that Thirst does not -- it smoothes out Control Slaver's draws. Except for liminal cases involving a Sol Ring or similar artifact, Thirst only comes online once Control Slaver has established a decent manabase. Conversely, Brainstorm is useful for getting to the point where Control Slaver has three mana available in the first place.

Now, with all of this in mind, I decided that Legacy of Lat-Nam would be worth trying in Control Slaver. Like Brainstorm, it is inexpensive enough to smooth out Control Slaver's sometimes rough draws. Like Thirst for Knowledge, it fixes hands weighed down by having a Colossus in them. In these ways, this little cantrip seemed to be exactly what Control Slaver needed. It fixed artifact-heavy draws and it smoothed out mana.

However, Legacy has its own problems. (The card, not the format -- but the format has its own issues). The slowtrip nature of the card means that casting it on the third turn to find a third land does not work. In a format as quick as Type One, passing the turn is very seldom a desirable play -- you want to win as quickly as possible. That's why Oath has so many problems -- it passes the turn after assembling its combo pieces. The other problem with Legacy is that it requires a card to be shuffled away, and sometimes you have a good hand.

This lead me to Night's Whisper. It draws as many cards as Legacy, but does not require another card to be shuffled away. It fixes bad hands as much as Legacy does, since they both draw two cards. It finds mana and fixes mana issues even better than Legacy does, since it draws the cards right away, allowing you to make your land drops.

Now, is Night's Whisper the most powerful draw spell? Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, and Skeletal Scrying are all far more potent spells and given a decent amount of mana have much more powerful effects. However, none of those spells are especially wonderful at fixing bad mana. Night's Whisper, costing only two mana, can do so easily. In this regard, it is more like Brainstorm than Thirst for Knowledge.

So, in short, Night's Whisper allows Control Slaver to better use its mana by giving it an inexpensive cantrip in the same vein as Gro. It fixes the mana base. It allows you to draw more cards without investing in a large expensive Mana Drain target. It really does make Control  Slaver flow better.

The final bit of theory on why Night's Whisper is good is that not every card in Control Slaver is of equal power. Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will have no equals in the deck. Night's Whisper, or whatever card is in that slow, will not be as powerful as either of those cards. Night's Whisper, however, helps dig you into those cards for only two mana, while also not costing you a card like Vampiric Tutor would, and helping get your mana base to the point where those two cards are optimal. In other words, playing Night's Whisper is in some ways like playing a cantrip in your Draft deck which has a Dromar -- it helps get you to your bomb and make it playable once you get it.

Now, with all that being said, Night's Whisper has its drawbacks. The first issue is that it is black. Historically, Control Slaver has mostly been blue, with some red, and a tiny bit of black. This is reflected in my usual manabase of four Volcanic Islands, and only two Underground Seas. Further, my sideboards tend to be heavy in red cards and have none or almost no black cards. With the introduction of Night's Whisper into the deck, that all changes. In order to make Control Slaver able to use a black spell as a mana fixer, the deck needs reliable quick access to black mana. One is then left with two choices -- either red becomes relegated to a mere splash for three Goblin Welders, and CS thereby loses some of its best sideboard cards; or CS is forced to become a true three color deck, instead of a two color deck with a small splash.

Another advantage of NW is that it is a sorcery. The obvious unpleasant scenario is when it is the third turn and you only have two lands in play. With Night's Whisper and a Mana Drain in hand, you are forced to chose between leaving open Drain mana and failing to cast Night's Whisper. This situation isn't actually quite so bad for Night's Whisper as it seems -- remember that even an instant-speed draw spell would require you to either tap out mainphase in that position, or else forego a chance of making that turn's land drop. However, that said, being a sorcery does get annoying at times.

Finally, Night's Whisper makes you lose two life. In Drain mirrors, as are common in New England, this matters very little. However, against combo decks, that's one less storm that they need to get. Think about how many times a storm player is able to get his opponent to two but not win -- that's how often this would result in a gamelose due to the two lifeloss. However, the most important match for the loss of two life is against aggro decks, which are not amazing matches for Control Slaver in the first place. These decks benefit twice from your casting of Night's Whisper -- first from the lifeloss, second because you fetched out an Underground Sea instead of a Basic Island.

Now that I've gone over all of the drawbacks of Night's Whisper, I would like to go over one trait of Night's Whisper that is not in fact a drawback. Night's Whisper has an effect which is not especially big or splashy or dramatic. However, it would unfair to say that in the later stages of the game it is that much worse than a Skeletal Scrying. Would I prefer a Scry for four over a Night's Whisper? Of course. But that isn't a fair comparison. Night's Whisper draws you into cards while only costing you two mana. It isn't a huge Drain target, nor does it tap you out lategame. You can cast a Night's Whisper while still leaving open plenty of mana for either a Drain or whatever is drawn off Whisper; the same cannot be said of Scrying. I'd rather cast both Whisper and Mana Drain than draw a few more cards off a Scrying.

And there is the theory behind NWCS. Kowal really likes it, and has done well with it. I have my reservations, but would argue that it is perhaps the most powerful build of Control Slaver being played today, if perhaps a bit weaker in certain matchups. However, it has a lot of promise, and with a bit more tuning, I think that more of its shortcomings can be overcome.

[Harlequin]

Very well Stated, I'm going to put our spin on whisper...

Jer and I were testing the whisper after kowal's success with the card, and there here is why we like it.

It fits into a niche in the deck where the tempo of CS is particularly weak.  Because CS doesn't run 1 and 2 cost disruption spells (like Chalice, Duress, Null Rod, etc, there are tons of them).  It has a gap in tempo for turn 1 assuming you have 1 off color moxen.  Night's whisper joins Brainstorm as your "reliable" turn 1 play.  As stated it gives you more chances to get to that critical mana level on turn 2 -- namely access to when you pass the turn on your second turn.  To put it minimalistically, your turn 2 options are: you could drain, and if you don't have to, you can thrist. 

It also brings you back to 6 or 7 cards when you play it on turn 1 (depending on P/D), after a land mox drop.  Thus enabling Library as an option earlier and more often. 

Lastly, as stated above, In the late game it gives you minor boosts.  No need to tap out to cast a by Scrye or FoF or Gifts... you can win small and just draw a few cards off your thrists and whispers.

[Disburden]

Thanks a lot for posting this article. I remember Pming you before Gencon and asking about Night's Whisper in Control Slaver. I am glad to see you wrote about it.

 I have to say that I am not sure if I like this card in the deck just yet. I do like though how it adds tempo to a deck that doesn't really have any useful ways of gaining tempo early game. How do you feel this version of the deck fares against Aggro/Aggro Control decks though? I believe Kowal mentioned that the deck has a better aggro match-up than normal CS does (And he has Razormanes in the side). I did notice though, that castying multiple Whispers during an aggro match-up can hurt you a lot. Losing two life every time you cast this spell can add up when you getting bashed in the face with two 2/3s. I do see Kird Apes where I play though. Hmm.

How do you feel about Jotun Grunt now also? It seems like he is going to be a pain in the ass for this deck, since he is a 4/4 it's also hard to cast removal on the guy. Any deck that is going to run Grunt also would be playing strip effects on your Underground seas. All that said, I really like the different build, but I just wasn't sure if I liked taking two life off a draw spell. Combined with Fetchlands, it can hurt.

[Kowal]

If I may step in for a moment...

I'm in the process of writing a larger, more 'strictly mechanical' style article.  Not to give too much away, but without all the pretty words, here's how I feel about it.

When I joined Team Reflection, I had to face the inevitability that I'd be learning how to play Control Slaver.  I presented Rich with my two problems with the deck:  It ran out of gas too often, and had nothing useful to do turn one.  Whisper solves both of those while participating in the "cantrips for Dromar" example that Rich gave.

Your aggro matchup increases for the following reasons:  You're more capable of making your land drops, you're more likely to find your removal and hate, and you're more likely to be able to protect that Tinker.

Regarding Jotun Grunt:  Not a concern, in my opinion.  The only thing that makes him scare me at all is the huge body on him.  His ability, while relevant, is very slow and easy to work around.

[warble]

I will agree that any 2 for 1 is dominant in a control matchup, and night's whisper is just that costing only 1 colored mana.  The issue we run into with Impulse is that while it has a better casting cost and is an instant, it isn't a 2 for 1.  In terms of dark confidant, bob's not only a risk but it is succeptable to the same hate that will be killing your welders.  However, I would like to isolate the specific choices you're making with choosing night's whisper:

1)  You can no longer run blue/red
2)  You can no longer run wasteland + strip
3)  You become more proactive than even merchant scroll was forcing you to become
4)  You are more afraid of control and aggro than you are of combo
5)  Duress doesn't belong in Control Slaver

While 1 and 2 are certainly acceptable, I believe 3 is my sticking point.  Sure, I can run blue/red/black control slaver with no waste and no duress and destroy a lot of control and aggro, but then I slam into the brick wall of "oh combo showed up".  What do I mean by this?  I mean that my blue cards and mana drain are a premium in Control Slaver and always have been. 

Half the reason the draw engine needs to be blue is force of will.  It's the card that makes control decks have a chance in tournaments, not any other card, and how low do you intend to take your blue count before you start running 3 FoW's?  When I look at duress I see a card that allows me to survive, while night's whisper leads me to believe that "magic is such a game of luck".  It's just making the first turn that much more important, so it's not a true win more card but it is, early on, more of a risk than I would be willing to take.

What risk would I prefer?  I'd prefer to run fire/ice or quicken or muddle the mixture.  Why?  Because they're blue, and because I'm running merchant scroll.  If I didn't have to use force of will in every match I played with CS, would I dedicate a whole lot more slots to black?  Hell yes, nobody is arguing that.  I'd be running 4 grim tutors, 2 diabolic tutors, some night's whispers and probably multiple tendrils copies.  The main problem I see, as you pointed out, is that the room is really just not there so you're going to have to drop blue cards for the night's whispers.  Or you're going to have to dedicate to a gameplan where 1 resolved mindslaver activation and beatdown is your game-ending strategy.  Not that that is flawed, but it's definitely a risk that gifts builds of CS avoid.

[Alandovos]

Have you considered Strategic Planning as an alternative?  It is still two mana and a sorcery, but does have the advantage of being blue.  Also it give you another alternative to fill your graveyard with big artifacts.

Is the move back to a URb mana base worth going to a card that is +0 instead of +1 card advantage?

[Polynomial P]

Since playing with extra black cards require you to open up your mana base to wasteland, have you given thought to a 1 swamp 1 sea, 5-6 fetches base? Since some slaver builds have been sporting both strip mine and library, it is concievable to run 2x non-blue producing land. By playing a basic swamp, you force fish decks or stax decks to find their strip mine in order to shut off your black mana....which may be significant. In place of the third underground you could run another basic island. If a basic swamp is not the answer, why did you reject it?

Did you test merchant scrolls in those spots instead? Was the +1 card advantage better than staying in blue and finding a card you need?

[Eddie]

Have you considered Strategic Planning as an alternative?  It is still two mana and a sorcery, but does have the advantage of being blue.  Also it give you another alternative to fill your graveyard with big artifacts.

I don't think Strategic Planning is a good alternative.

The first thing that came to my mind was Impulse. Yes, it has no card advantage, but it is an instant and it digs 4 cards deep. It too fixes bad hands, and digs for Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker faster than Night's Whisper will.

The final bit of theory on why Night's Whisper is good is that not every card in Control Slaver is of equal power. Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will have no equals in the deck. Night's Whisper, or whatever card is in that slow, will not be as powerful as either of those cards. Night's Whisper, however, helps dig you into those cards for only two mana, while also not costing you a card like Vampiric Tutor would, and helping get your mana base to the point where those two cards are optimal. In other words, playing Night's Whisper is in some ways like playing a cantrip in your Draft deck which has a Dromar -- it helps get you to your bomb and make it playable once you get it.

I feel you can replace every instance of the words "Night's Whisper" with "Impulse". And that's true for most of your text. Plus it's still a blue card, meaning you can keep the black splash at a minimum (+ obligatory pitches to fow blabla)

[Harlequin]

I think one of the strongest arguements in favor of night's whisper over basically any other card is: Library of Alexandria.  I would list as reason #2 in order of importances for reason in favor of Night's Whisper.  (what a terrible sentance :/ )

I think this is the second most important reason to run Whisper over other options.  (much better =P )

[Roxas]

We don't run Swamp because getting UU up by turn two as many games as possible is simply too important.  The deck still isn't as black-dependent as it is blue-dependent; after it fetches one Sea right before (and if) it's going to cast Night's Whisper, it won't need black again for a while save for broken restricted cards.

Regarding Merchant Scroll, there really just aren't enough decent targets to warrant its inclusion as in Meandeck Gifts; there's basically Ancestral, Force, Drain, and occasionally Echoing Truth.  It also doesn't smooth over your mana like NW does.  That said, t's still a decent card that might end up in the deck; running a copy or two has been tried before to some success, and might prove necessary with the recent rise in popularity of storm combo.

Impulse isn't as good as NW because it doesn't increase your hand size (relevant for Library), which is important and worth tolerating the sorcery speed and non-blueness.  It's the reason we chose it over one-mana cantrips, Impulse, and other options. 

Why is the deck's blue card count suddenly a huge problem?  The deck still has Brainstorm, Thirst, Drain, and other cards, and at least one of the Night's Whisper slots was previously taken up by nonblue cards anyway (say, the fourth Welder or Rack and Ruin). 

[Eddie]

Why is the deck's blue card count suddenly a huge problem?  The deck still has Brainstorm, Thirst, Drain, and other cards, and at least one of the Night's Whisper slots were previously taken up by nonblue cards anyway (say, the fourth Welder or Rack and Ruin).

It isn't that huge a problem. We where just trying to find / proposing something in blue cause Rich said it sometimes was a problem:

Now, with all that being said, Night's Whisper has its drawbacks. The first issue is that it is black. Historically, Control Slaver has mostly been blue, with some red, and a tiny bit of black. This is reflected in my usual manabase of four Volcanic Islands, and only two Underground Seas. Further, my sideboards tend to be heavy in red cards and have none or almost no black cards. With the introduction of Night's Whisper into the deck, that all changes. In order to make Control Slaver able to use a black spell as a mana fixer, the deck needs reliable quick access to black mana. One is then left with two choices -- either red becomes relegated to a mere splash for three Goblin Welders, and CS thereby loses some of its best sideboard cards; or CS is forced to become a true three color deck, instead of a two color deck with a small splash.

[Kowal]

I am, personally, of the opinion that Rich is wrong.  Having nonblue draw spells, especially those which smooth mana and early counters, is absolutely crucial in the mirror and against Meandeck Gifts which is certainly going to show up a little more thanks to GenCon.  Immunity to Red Elemental Blast greatly outweighs any drawbacks of using colored mana, until Stax becomes a popular metagame choice again.  At which point, I'd sooner add Pithing Needle and go the SSB route than cut Night's Whisper.

[zeus-online]

Would you Go, fetch -> U sea, mox, night's whisper if you know your opponent is playing a stax deck with 5 strips ?

I'd probably do it on the play, but on the draw i'm not so sure.

/Zeus

[Purple Hat]

if you're playing against stax on the draw and they went turn 1 do nothing or turn 1 do something that gets countered you're gonnna need a counter for their big turn two threat.  if you don't have one you're gonna need to find one, so playing whispers is probably more important on the draw than it is on the play there.  actually....if you're playing against stax and they went turn 1 do nothing on the play does it really matter what your turn 1 play is?  you just won.

Why is the deck's blue card count suddenly a huge problem?  The deck still has Brainstorm, Thirst, Drain, and other cards, and at least one of the Night's Whisper slots were previously taken up by nonblue cards anyway (say, the fourth Welder or Rack and Ruin).

It isn't that huge a problem. We where just trying to find / proposing something in blue cause Rich said it sometimes was a problem:

Now, with all that being said, Night's Whisper has its drawbacks. The first issue is that it is black. Historically, Control Slaver has mostly been blue, with some red, and a tiny bit of black. This is reflected in my usual manabase of four Volcanic Islands, and only two Underground Seas. Further, my sideboards tend to be heavy in red cards and have none or almost no black cards. With the introduction of Night's Whisper into the deck, that all changes. In order to make Control Slaver able to use a black spell as a mana fixer, the deck needs reliable quick access to black mana. One is then left with two choices -- either red becomes relegated to a mere splash for three Goblin Welders, and CS thereby loses some of its best sideboard cards; or CS is forced to become a true three color deck, instead of a two color deck with a small splash.

rich doesn't say it's a blue count problem though, he says it causes him to play a URB mana base or a UBr mana base instead of his former URb mana base. 

[BreathWeapon]

I haven't had a problem finding a target for Merchant Scroll between Force of Will, Mana Drain, Ancestral Recall, Thirst for Knowledge, Mystical Tutor, Gifts Ungiven or the Echoing Truth or Fire/Ice that I move in and out of the deck, if anything Slaver has more targets for the card than Gifts, not less. Merchant Scroll just seems like the superior card to me, it doesn't cost black mana, it doesn't cost life, it guarantees Force of Will or Mana Drain vs Combo, and it performs the same function as Night's Whispers with Ancestral Recall.

[diopter]

(Merchant Scroll) performs the same function as Night's Whispers with Ancestral Recall.

Night's Whisper's function is largely draw- and mana-smoothing, which it does so well because it does it for only 2 mana. Merchant Scroll requires at least 3 mana to do that, so it is way less efficient. Scroll has other benefits and drawbacks when compared to Whisper, of course, but Whisper is usually lighter on your mana. Note the key is "usually", as a Wasteland will set you back. This is a big problem in my opinion - it's not Stax's Wastelands that scare me, it's Fish's.

[Grand Inquisitor]

First, I really like this experimentation with Slaver, even if it doesn't end up making the final cut for current lists.  I've always despised Slaver for exactly the reason Rich points out: it's a combo-control deck that can't efficiently manage it's use of mana/cards.

I do have an issue with the language of some of this discussion.  Why do people keep referring to NW as a 'mana fixer/smoother'?  It seems to do the opposite by requiring you to put seas on the table when you normally wouldn't.  If this is said with the intention that by drawing more cards you set up your hand better to hit land drops, then I it's not really a mana fixer as much as a hand fixer.  Otherwise, I'd like to hear the explanation.

As far as NW's role in the deck, I think it shouldn't be underestimated the extent to which NW supplements both brainstorm and TFK.  By increasing hand size it makes both of these cards much more powerful without haveing to wait around, which ultimately mitigates one of the deck's biggest flaws: poor combinations of cards in hand leading to cumbersome play options.

I haven't tested this yet, but I'm looking forward to it.


For an aside, I'd like to mention that the inclusion of NW relates exactly to why I'm such a big fan of Int/AK in decks that can afford the space.  It allows you to manage your mana use better, as cantrips it effectively makes your deck smaller and brings you closer to drawing game turning cards, and it diversifies your CA threats (which are important regardless of the matchup).

[GUnit]

I think that's there's one approach to this issue that has been neglected so far in this discussion, and it happens to be my main point of interest. I've been mashing around all sorts of control slaver and burning slaver lists in the last six weeks and I've come to the general conclusion that 27 of the non-mana cards (out of 35, usually) are predetermined in a slaver list. This leaves exactly eight customizable slots in the most barebone of slaver lists, with lots of extremely powerful cards in contention. My question is basically this: which cards are being cut for the night's whispers, or more accurately, perhaps, what is the group of (eight) cards that best compliments the NW build of slaver.

Here is what I believe to be the most barebone non-mana 27/35 card slaver list, for reference:

4 x Mana Drain
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Thirst for Knowledge
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Tinker
1 x Demonic Tutor
2 x Goblin Welder
1 x Mindslaver
1 x Big Dude (pref. Sundering Titan, in my opinion, but that is neither here nor there)
and then the only slots I could possibly see being debated:
1 x mystical tutor
1 x vampiric tutor

Now, I realize some people drop vamp and some people drop mystical. I find them to be extremely useful in creating an aggressive start to the game, they have excellent synergy with memory jar, they dodge duress, and both can get the four most powerful cards in your deck. I absolutely know, for sure, that I'd never cut either, but I know also that not everyone agrees. My testing and experience have proven both cards far too powerful and versatile to remove. I use them in a similar fashion, often, to the use of merchant scrolls in the meandeck gifts list.

Anyway, continuing on, we now have 8 slots to fill. Some of the more popular choices are any of the following:

Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Rebuild/Hurkyl's/Rushing River
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Memory Jar
Triskelion/Duplicant
Goblin Welder #3
Mindslaver #2
Tormod's Crypt
Gorilla Shaman
Crucible of Worlds
Burning Wish
Night's Whisper
Skeletal Scrying
Mana Leak
Duress
Fire/Ice
Lava Dart
Rack and Ruin

Most lists pick up goblin welder #3 and Slaver #2, so that drops us to 6 spots.

All lists run at least one of fact and jar, many run both. Conservatively, this brings us to 5.

Running with no MD bounce spell is often suicidal these days, so you have to pick up an E. truth or something. 4.

Tormod's Crypt is pretty much insane in vintage right now and has a home in most lists. 3.

So, this is basically where the meat of the decision lies. You can go for the Trike/Duplicant/Burning wish slot as an alternate decent win condition and/or utility slot (all three serve both purposes, although wish eats up 2-3 SB slots). You can go for Shamans and Crucible to try and capitalize on weak draws from your opponents. You can play more bombtastical draw spells (gifts and whichever of fact or jar didn't make the first cut. I like running all three). OR you can play 3 x leak/duress/NW.

After looking over everything it seems like NW is perhaps better in mediocre hands, particularly at the very beginning of the game, but worse than more powerful draw spells at every other time. The deck runs full acceleration and is capable of many good turn 1-2 plays off 4 BS, 3 tutors, recall and broken
things that can happen with mana-heavy draws. I have a hard time justifying to myself making the room for them.

In the context of what I've laid out above, what does everyone think about *HOW* to put NW in the deck, and why it is justified compared to the other choices?

Thanks

EDIT: I realize turn 1 brainstorm is normally an awful play, but it's still there and sometimes the correct thing to do.

EDIT#2: I totally missed the possibility of Misdirection in my disccusion as well. I've been trying to trade for some to test out, because combo is the only thing I fear. Also very valid contenders for the openings in this deck.

[Kowal]

For reference, the tournaments that Rich is citing:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28939.0
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18337
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18156
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17465

I am currently writing the article in which I discuss in detail the list, how it has evolved since it reached my grubby mits, and some basics on how I personally sideboard--  Not to say they're definitely the best options around, but it's what I think is best.

[warble]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28939.0

I like that Combo beat you in the finals, piloted by Rich.  3 Night's Whispers for utility slots is definitely a strong early game, but wouldn't you have preferred 3 Duress in your deck when playing against Worldgorger?  Do you have a super-secret combo fighting night's whisper decklist for CS as well?  Because I'm really not seeing any advantage to my draws with night's whisper and less utility against the key decks that I want to improve my matchup against:  null rod, meddling mage and duress or xantid-supported combo.

I also tested and cut night's whisper about 8 months ago as anything but a singleton.  Then again, I don't playtest decklists that lose to a resolved null rod either.  Echoing Truth is perhaps my favorite card in CS, and I'm glad to see it in all the decklists, but I do like to back it up a little.

[Whatever Works]

Night's whisper isnt exactly new tech by any means. Team reflection has had great success with the card (and so have i) for well over 2 months. I am very glad that Rich Shay has finally spent the time to talk about the card that has helped CS stay tier 1 (kinda).

Is it the greatest card in the world? No. Is it perhaps the worst card in the deck? Yes. Does it help correct some of the major flaws in the deck that have hindered the deck in the past? Absolutely.

My only other thought about the card that I am not sure if Rich has considered... Is that the card is much more beneficial to the players who are unexperienced with CS. If you play CS as perfectly as Shay then this card has a much smaller affect then if your not a great CS player. Running it in CS is kinda similar to Rich Shays arguments against the old "Goth Slaver" lists that ran AK. The arguements were that the deck wasnt as good, but was having success because it made the deck 100x easier to pilot.

I believe this is a neccessary addition to the deck to help it keep up with a fast environment where a turn 1 play is fairly important.

Kyle L

[Kowal]

I like that Combo beat you in the finals, piloted by Rich.  3 Night's Whispers for utility slots is definitely a strong early game, but wouldn't you have preferred 3 Duress in your deck when playing against Worldgorger?

My losses to combo are nothing more than inexperience and poor decisionmaking on my part.  Against Rich, my head simply wasn't attached and I almost won the match anyway.  Against TK, I misjudged the value of Demonic Tutor and Cabal Ritual, respectively, and it cost me that match.

These are mistakes that don't happen twice.  Things only go uphill from here.

[Harlequin]

This is not really dirrected at anyone, just a mild rant about the sorcery speed of Whisper....

Because it is (as WEWorks put it) the weakest card in the deck, I think the sorcery speed is only relevant in basically 1 scenareo.

Here is the logic:
When is Night's whisper at it's best?  When you have Land, off color mox, on turn 1 -- and because its the weakest card in the deck, its best only when you have -NO- other cards to play given that mana situation.  If you have a brainstorm in hand, then you probably wouldn't cast night's whisper anyhow.

Therefore, If Night's Whisper were instant, when would be the best time to cast it?  I would argue that it would still be durring your First Main - because you could draw into more Moxen &/or other important stuff.  Saph/Brainstorm, Lotus/Drain would be the best draws.  

What ppl seem to be missing is, they are stuck in brainstorm mentality.  The point being  - YOU CANNOT USE THIS LOGIC ON BRAINSTORM (and nor can you use the brainstorm logic on Whisper).  Why?  Because Brainstorm has a choice involved (namely what to put back).  Brainstorm grows in effectivness as your knowledge about your oppoent's deck grows.  Night's whisper does not simply because there is no choice to be made.  

Lastly - Why Can't we apply that logic to Ancestral recall?  Typically a player will delay a turn 1 recall to thier opponent's turn (usually as early as the upkeep) is if it may cause them to discard.  Night's whisper doesn't have that problem, however the logic used to justify the "durring your upkeep I cast Recall" logic is why Whisper should be cast on your first main.

So what is my Scenareo where first main NW is bad?  When your opponent has wasteland.

---> why does this matter?  Well it only applies to ppl who think night's whisper is unplayable strictly because it is not an instant.  I think that if it were an instant, it would only gain a marginal amount of strength.

[PipOC]

Here is the logic:
When is Night's whisper at it's best?  When you have Land, off color mox, on turn 1 -- and because its the weakest card in the deck, its best only when you have -NO- other cards to play given that mana situation.  If you have a brainstorm in hand, then you probably wouldn't cast night's whisper anyhow.

Hardly.  At that stage in the game whisper is better by a significant margin. In two turns whisper will have seen and netted you 1 card over brainstorm, barring a fetchland to make it even on cards seen.

[zeus-online]

Unless i know my opponent is playing duress and i have a key card in hand, i'd just go with turn 1 whispers rather then leaving B-storm mana up.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

Absolutely, I'd go with the Turn 1 Night's Whisper any day.  Brainstorm is infinitely better if you can pop a fetch before drawing even once from the rejected cards.  Night's Whisper fills the same spot that Merchant Scroll does in Meandeck Gifts; what do you do on Turn 1?  People seem to be forgetting that Brainstorm is not card advantage.  Pardon the belaboring of the obvious, but card advantage is good in control!

[Harlequin]

Perhaps I was too hasty when I said "If you have a brainstorm in hand, then you probably wouldn't cast night's whisper anyhow." 

I would guess it would be about 50/50.  It has nothing to do with card advantage either.  It simply has to do with what can you accomplish with what your given.  Infact the arguement over brainstorm or Whisper wasn't even my main focus.  But lets talk example hands for a moment.  Lets say its turn 1, one the play agianst an good player playing a mystry deck.  Lets say for arguements sake that there is a good chance they are playing wasteland (but your not 100% certain).

lets take a very basic hand:
Nights whisper
Brianstorm
Delta (with no basic swamps in your deck)
Volcanic Island
Mox Emerald
Mana drain
Welder


Is this a turn 1 whisper or turn 1 brainstorm?

How would that change if Welder was something less useful, like Trike or Jar/FoF?  What if the Volc was an island? what if you suspect your oppoent is playing SS with both duress and wastland?

[zeus-online]

lets talk example hands for a moment.  Lets say its turn 1, one the play agianst an good player playing a mystry deck.  Lets say for arguements sake that there is a good chance they are playing wasteland (but your not 100% certain).

lets take a very basic hand:
Nights whisper
Brianstorm
Delta (with no basic swamps in your deck)
Volcanic Island
Mox Emerald
Mana drain
Welder


Is this a turn 1 whisper or turn 1 brainstorm?

How would that change if Welder was something less useful, like Trike or Jar/FoF?  What if the Volc was an island? what if you suspect your oppoent is playing SS with both duress and wastland?

I'd go fetch, mox, Night's whisper.

First off, the chances of the opponent having two wastelands is pretty low, which means that regardless of what you fetched you'll end up with 1 land, 1 mox IF he has a single wasteland.
There are basicly three scenarios:
1) You go fetch -> Sea, mox, NW
2) You go volcanic -> Something (B-storm/Welder)
3) You go fetch, nothing.

I'm assuming that you dont draw another land turn 2.
So next turn you drop whatever land you didnt drop first and got potentially either Dual, dual or basic, dual...He wastes a land and your back to 1 land regardless of how you played the two lands.

However, if you go with NW turn 1 you might draw extra mana, and with the brainstorm you can dig pretty deep. (Around 6-7 cards by turn 3)

Another thing that bugs me is "How would that change if Welder was something less useful, like Trike or Jar/FoF?"
Welder is currently a blank card, it does nothing in the current situation. I'd much rather have a FoF or something, even if it isnt castable at the moment.

/Zeus

[Kowal]

I would rather have Jar than welder there.  You're holding Mana Drain--  If your opponent decides to go for the throat or, even better you rip Force off that Night's Whisper, you're in great shape to hardcast it after a minor counterwar.

[Disburden]

Perhaps I was too hasty when I said "If you have a brainstorm in hand, then you probably wouldn't cast night's whisper anyhow." 

I would guess it would be about 50/50.  It has nothing to do with card advantage either.  It simply has to do with what can you accomplish with what your given.  Infact the arguement over brainstorm or Whisper wasn't even my main focus.  But lets talk example hands for a moment.  Lets say its turn 1, one the play agianst an good player playing a mystry deck.  Lets say for arguements sake that there is a good chance they are playing wasteland (but your not 100% certain).

lets take a very basic hand:
Nights whisper
Brianstorm
Delta (with no basic swamps in your deck)
Volcanic Island
Mox Emerald
Mana drain
Welder


Is this a turn 1 whisper or turn 1 brainstorm?

How would that change if Welder was something less useful, like Trike or Jar/FoF?  What if the Volc was an island? what if you suspect your oppoent is playing SS with both duress and wastland?

I think Night's Whisper is too good to not play here. I'd definitely break that fetch for Underground Sea, play Emerald and then Whisper for two cards. If you went Fetchlands-Break for island--Brainstorm then you are pretty much shutting your deck off in the next few turns. You can't shuffle away the crap after you fix your hand and now you're stuck drawing the two cards you didn't want to keep in your hand. This is a poison you can't afford to stomach against any deck. Your only option then is to Night's Whisper anyway, get the two cards you didn't want to draw for two draw steps and just be mad at yourself that you didn't play Night's Whisper in the first place. Your other option if you brainstorm would be to play Volcanic Island--Brainstorm. This way you can actually fetch your crap away, but this also takes another turn and you pretty much gave your opponent a Time Walk.

Turn two you have Drain mana up or an active Welder considering what your opponent does on their turn.

I'd Night's Whisper any day.