[Discussion] Withholding Decklists

[Shoggoth]

Does anyone have the decklist that the control slaver player used to place in the top 8..?

Given the significance of the subject and the strong community interest in it, I thought it deserved its own thread.  Feel free to continue the discussion here.  -DA

[yespuhyren]

No one will.  Arend, our resident CS master, has decided not to release his list.  Few people actually know it, and I am respecting his wishes of not revealing it.

[CrashTest]

The list should be released, this isn't a little side tournament, but Vintage Worlds. Just because the original lists got lost, does not mean that all lists should not be posted. I strongly disagree with withholding the list for this event.

[Smmenen]

The list should be released, this isn't a little side tournament, but Vintage Worlds. Just because the original lists got lost, does not mean that all lists should not be posted. I strongly disagree with withholding the list for this event.

i have to say that i don't think arend is under any kind of duty to release his decklist beyond submitting it to the TO before the tournamnent.   he fullfilled his obligations and anything beyond that would be him being gracious. 

it isn't his fault that they don't have it

perhaps he should hand it over, but he isn't duty bound to do so. 

[Whatever Works]

The list should be released, this isn't a little side tournament, but Vintage Worlds. Just because the original lists got lost, does not mean that all lists should not be posted. I strongly disagree with withholding the list for this event.

I agree 100%. If I get hell for witholding a list at a 50 person event that doesnt matter. Then he deserves 100x worse for witholding his list from the biggest vintage event in the country. The top 8 gets posted on the front page of magicthegathering.com, and its like the only time that there is any advertising at all for type 1.

This is redicules. I respect arend as a player, but this is just a joke, and pathetic. I am a little ennoyed at you yespuhyren if you do have his list and wont reveal it, because your helping secrecy that is 100% holding back Type 1... Not just from people netdecking, but the actual literal advertising of type 1, by the release of ALL 8 top 8 lists.

This is 100% abuse of a casualty. I know you could use the example of DNA evidence being misplaced so it cant be used in court, but come on! we have the results that make a huge impact... and because someone is being selfish OUR type 1... OUR format... will have to perhaps suffer?

Thats just redicules. Sure it isnt his responcibility, but it SHOULD be his duty... to wrongs dont make a right in this 1 guys.

Steve you can sound like a lawyer all you want (because if you base your arguement on technicalities your right), but on moral grounds I personally feel that he is in the wrong.

Kyle L.

[yespuhyren]

Personally I would never do it, and feel isn't the right thing to do.  On that note, just because I know parts of Arend's deck does not mean I have a right to reaveal anything.  As much as I respect the community, due to the fact that I actually see, talk to, and associate with Arend beyond the 18" screen in front of my face, I'm going to side with him rather than the community on this one.

Just because I don't support that doesn't mean I will betray him.

[Whatever Works]

Personally I would never do it, and feel isn't the right thing to do.  On that note, just because I know parts of Arend's deck does not mean I have a right to reaveal anything.  As much as I respect the community, due to the fact that I actually see, talk to, and associate with Arend beyond the 18" screen in front of my face, I'm going to side with him rather than the community on this one.

Just because I don't support that doesn't mean I will betray him.

How is it betrayal? I really think your looking at it wrong. Your providing information that was SUPPOSED to be revealed. Its not like you snuck into someones house, and stole and posted a decklist. Major tournements like his you sign up knowing your giving up any privacy of information. 1 mishap shouldnt change this.

I know Arend too... see him all the time at events, but that doesnt mean that I think he has the right to hide his decklist from the public eye.

Kyle L.

[Shoggoth]

I'll give Arend a dollar if he posts his list...

[Komatteru]

Ultimately, we can't force Arend to publish his list.  However...

It is my opinion that if Arend refuses to release his list, then no one else's should be released as well.  Otherwise, Arend is the only person (with a few scattered others) who has the full benefit of knowing all the T8 decks, which gives him an advantage in this case.  Arend should not be allowed to profit based on his decision not to release his list any more than not allowing people to know his tech.  If he doesn't want to give out his tech for the championship, he should not be allowed to receive any one else's either.  In addition, withholding his list for such a high profile event (which I don't think I've seen before, except that one time at Waterbury with Meandeck Tendrils) is pretty selfish (for lack of a better word), and by refusing to publish his list, I think he should really be the one to bear the "here's part of why there are no Gencon lists this year" moniker, which might cause him to think a little bit about what he is actually doing.

Ordinarily, in small tournments, all the people who attend the event get a good chance to see "secret decks" because of the size of the event, but at Gencon, with all the things going on around, it is hard for people to really check out all the decks.  Usually, the thought process behind withholding the publication of a list after a 30-man tournament is that the work put into the deck was intended for a much larger prize--i.e., a major T8.

Personally, for large tournaments such as Gencon and SCG, I think that by playing in the event, you consent to having your list published if you make T8.  However, since no such proviso was made beforehand (and would be unenforcable in the event that the lists get lost), there's not much that can be done.

If all the lists are not available, there might not be an article written for MTG.com, which means less exposure for the format, particularly the winners.  Of course, writing "list withheld by request from player" in the article along with the other seven lists might make Arend look like a huge jerk to random readers, who will say "What kind of jerk would withhold his list from a Champs event?"  But hey, it's not every day that you get a chance to turn victory into defeat, and rather than being applauded for making T4 at a big event, he will be known as "that one dude who refused to give up his list to MTG.com."

However, all that is his decision to make.

[Shoggoth]

everyone else already posted their lists here on the forum though...

[The Atog Lord]

Arend,

Of course no one can or will force you to publish your list.
However, please ask yourself this question. Would you have been able to arrive at your list had others not posted their lists, either my CS lists or anyone elses?
If you can honestly say that you would have arrived at the same list had others been unwilling to share their lists in the past, then by all means withhold your list.
However, if your list would not have come together without other people being more forthcoming with their lists, then I'd ask you to at least reconsider.
I, for one, am very curious.

Rich

[Liek]

This is ridiculous. Is this why there's no mtg.com coverage? How can people know about the format and the tournaments if there's no coverage?

I've been wondering why there hasn't been coverage, I thought it was all of the various Nationals coverages taking up too much time and effort from the editors...

[Machinus]

Never mind, I remembered.

Arend is taking advantage of Knutson's misfortune. It isn't mtg.com's fault the maid took the lists. In this case I think it's wrong to withhold the list.

[AbouTreeFiddy]

Maybe they could put someone who gives a shit in charge of the report on the vintage champs.

A real journalist employed by the biggest newspaper in the country (mtg.com is the biggest publisher on mtg articles) would be fired for bumbling an article that bad, and losing all the source material.  This along with the prize support for gencon shows you just how much wizards cares about type 1.

[mgouthro]

Looking at it from another point of view, Arend didn't withhold his list. He registered like everyone else and it was within the public domain from that point on. It is unfortunate that Knutson lost the lists, but that doesn't make it Arend's responsibility to ensure that everyone sees his list. The situation where a player asks an organizer not to publish the list doesn't apply. Trying to make this into a moral obligation on his part is the R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S argument. He fulfilled his part of the contract of playing in the tournament by handing over his list in regards to his decklist. He's not obligated to do anything further.

[Machinus]

Looking at it from another point of view, Arend didn't withhold his list. He registered like everyone else and it was within the public domain from that point on. It is unfortunate that Knutson lost the lists, but that doesn't make it Arend's responsibility to ensure that everyone sees his list. The situation where a player asks an organizer not to publish the list doesn't apply. Trying to make this into a moral obligation on his part is the R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S argument. He fulfilled his part of the contract of playing in the tournament by handing over his list in regards to his decklist. He's not obligated to do anything further.

The community definitely suffers when WotC removes even a part of their meager publicity and support for Type 1. This is the one paragraph per year that mtg.com writes about Vintage. Do you really not care if they skip a year?

[mgouthro]

The community definitely suffers when WotC removes even a part of their meager publicity and support for Type 1. This is the one paragraph per year that mtg.com writes about Vintage. Do you really not care if they skip a year?

Given that I don't read mtg.com, I can honestly say that I don't care if they skip a year. This so-called one paragraph per year is largely obscured by the information that sites like this one produces. The sob story about suffering and being shocked and appalled and having moral obligations just irritates me. I do more to promote vintage in my community that Wizards does.

[Komatteru]

Acutally, the MTG article on the Champs is really nice (multiple pages with nice pictures) and has a lot of good information for people not familiar with the format.  Did you read Ted's from last year?  It was great.

[Shoggoth]

The wizards.com gencon article from last year is actualy what got me into vintage in the first place.

[Smmenen]

I've written several vintage articles for mtg.com   does that not count

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/authorarchive&author=StephenMenendian

[Shoggoth]

Wow, I didn't even realize you had written those. I have read all them. Top notch articles!

[Disburden]

I've written several vintage articles for mtg.com   does that not count

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/authorarchive&author=StephenMenendian

Actually, your articles are amazing on MTG.com, Steve. I wish you did them more often. I really like your year in review.

[Komatteru]

I've written several vintage articles for mtg.com   does that not count

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/authorarchive&author=StephenMenendian

Yes, your MTG articles are probably your best work, but it's been quite a while since the last one, and the last one was more of a general strategy article than a Vintage piece.  Unfortunately, you didn't write a year in review article last year.

[God_Campbell]

Seeing as how I have been scouring the wizards site looking for the article on 06 vintage champs and have come up empty handed could any one perhaps lay down a link to this article? thank you much.

[Liek]

There is no article (yet.)

That's what I and some others have been complaining about.

There is, though, the fact sheet. (but it isn't the same one that was up before the tournament happened.)

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome

[God_Campbell]

HAHA okay I thought I was just blind or something thanks though for the heads up.

[dicemanx]

Man, the melodrama, and accusations.

I'm assuming that someone PMed Arend before the shitflinging started in this thread? Or are you accustomed to receiving 2nd party info and proceeding like it was gospel? Arend might not even be aware of all of this, as he doesn't post here very often. Even if he is aware (by now anyways), I could totally understand if he doesn't post the list after these accusations. There's a lesson in TACT that supercedes the need to have that list published, and perhaps this little incident can serve as a nice lesson on how NOT to ask people to publish their lists.

I'm also assuming that Knutson was PMed and asked if Arend's "amoral withholding" of the list was the cause of no article being published this year? If not, I think it would be a gross negligence to single Arend out in such an article and ACCUSE him of withholding a list when in fact it was the bumbling incompetence on WotC's part that created this mess (or maybe they can again accuse the maid - yeah, how dare she). The article writer should own up to the fact that WotC lost the lists, period.

[marcb]

I hate to go back to a subject which has already been discussed extensively, but I must also protest to Arend for not helping Type 1 as a format by not posting his list. We have seen the players of Type 1 show kindness to each other that most people would never have imagined possible (Roland I'm thinking of you), and here we have the antithesis. The only new idea I can add to the discussion is to suggest people look at Arend's list posted from his 9th place finish at SCG Rochester (see starcitygames).  If anyone played against him at Gencon, then maybe they might be able to help tweak his old list to give us a good idea of the one he played at GenCon.  I noticed for example he always played 61 cards at SCG tournaments, so I'm guessing he played 61 at GenCon. Also, he obviously plays crucible, strip, sundering titan, as opposed to Darksteel Colossus. I know he played Wasteland at GenCon, so I would assume he lost the Repeal for a Wasteland. Anyway, as long as he played CS, then we know most of the cards he played. There must be some people out there who believe his deck should be public information that would be willing to offer confirmation of some of the metagames slots he played at GenCon. For ease I will post his latest version as of 6-18-2006.

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt

Artifact Creatures
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifacts
1 Mindslaver

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifact Lands
1 Seat Of The Synod

Basic Lands
3 Island

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Marc

[Dxfiler]

I agree with Diceman and will go one further in saying that Wizards should be ashamed in how they handle Vintage tournaments in general.

The prize support at Gencon outside of first is pretty abysmal.  The handling of side events (although not entirely on Wziards shoulders), is equally abysmal.  The no proxies rule, while making sense because it's sanctioned, is in my opinion also abysmal.  Losing the lists does not come as a shock to me either. 

Vintage World Championships should attract players from all over.  It should have the kind of attention that the French Vintage tournament was given a year or so back.  If it had that type of dedicated prize structure, the entrance fee on top of a badge would be worth it.  The traveling endless miles for many would be worth it. Putting up with the sometimes subpar judging seen all too often in this format would be worth it. 

As it stands, going to a wizards sanctioned vintage event is not worth it.

Just my two cents.

- Dave Feinstein

[dicemanx]

list being revealed were slim anyway, so I don't see the point in dodging the subject if people felt strongly about it

I'm sure if you read this back to yourself you'll see that perhaps this isn't the best mentality to have.

It's one thing to feel strongly about something, but it's another thing altogether to mercilessly berate a player when he has paid his entry fee, submitted his list, and didn't even publically complain about the awful prize support and the fact that he essentially went unrewarded for his excellent effort. In fact, you've collectively put Arend in a position where he should NOT reveal his list, and I would support him in refraining from doing so.