[Discussion] Withholding Decklists

[darkstar138]

This decision makes him a celebrity and if he ever plays the deck again every card will be posted.  Vintage is a slave to a master that doesn't care about it. It is his right to expoit an error by an irresponsible person but now he is marked and won't be able to play his deck without revealing something.  If there is only one article a year on vintage then who cares if it becomes zero.  Vintage players come to this website because we are a community.  I believe vintage is the best format in magic because it goes to the core of it's creation.  This is a betrayal to the vintage community and the vintage community will respon accordingly.

[Moxlotus]

Maybe they could put someone who gives a shit in charge of the report on the vintage champs.

A real journalist employed by the biggest newspaper in the country (mtg.com is the biggest publisher on mtg articles) would be fired for bumbling an article that bad, and losing all the source material.  This along with the prize support for gencon shows you just how much wizards cares about type 1.

Maybe you should learn what the fuck you're talking about.  The person in charge of decklists was Ted Knutson.  Yeah.  Ted Knutson.  The guy who put up a ton of Vintage articles on Starcitygames when he was the editor.  He didn't have to, he could have brushed them off as "less than 1% of readers play Type 1, let's put up a Type 2 article," but he didn't.  The job he did at SCG is part of the reason Type 1 exists in this state today, that is, not keeper.  If you bothered to read his article last year you would realize that it was amazing. 

I think its obvious that Wizards doesn't give a shit about Type 1, and why should they?  But to claim Ted Knutson doesn't care about Vintage is ludacrous.  Please think before you post.

I agree with the majority in this thread about most things.  Arend will not be known as the guy who made top 4 with Slaver in a field of Pitch Long, and even beating Pitch Long in the top 8 (which is a damn impressive feat for Slaver), but rather the guy who prevented Type 1 from getting an article on magicthegathering.com

Your passionate loyalty to SCG is admirable, but you should know better than this.  Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flaming).  -DA

[goobafish]

Or are you accustomed to receiving 2nd party info and proceeding like it was gospel? Arend might not even be aware of all of this, as he doesn't post here very often.

I wholeheartedly agree. It is ridiculous that people are bashing Arend for something he has not done. He might not even be aware that Wizards has lost the decklists, or has not had the chance to come online since then. If he infact has messaged someone (which no one has alluded to in their posts) with the fact that he is witholding then that is the time to criticize, rather than now when we have no further information.

[Machinus]

If there is only one article a year on vintage then who cares if it becomes zero.

Your logic leaves much to be desired, and your attitude is not shared by most of the community. The difference between zero and one articles is the biggest possible one.

I'd go so far as to say that Vintage, in 2006, needs this article.

[Klep]

@gooba: yespuhyren said Arend has decided not to release it.

I find the fact that we won't have all of the decklists from the Vintage World Championships because a guy who Top 4'd is greedily hoarding the tech which already won him something is highly offensive to me. 

To me, Arend's action demonstrates a lack of care for the format, which is just silly.  Let's face it, the primary reason to play this format is because you enjoy it.  You aren't going to be making money off it.  The best way to keep this format around is to help develop it and help it get what publicity it can.  Sure you can make allowances for winning; everyone deserves to have one shot with secret tech.  But to hoard the decklist that got you to top 4 at a Championship tournament is just greedy and can only hurt the format as a whole.  I seriously hope that Arend reverses his decision and allows us to have the full set of decklists so we can have a proper writeup on this event on mtg.com.

[Godder]

I agree with Klep, particularly since the only reason it hasn't been posted already is because of an unfortunate mishap.

[Shoggoth]

I will give Arend two dollars if he posts his list...

[Methuselahn]

I will give him two dollars and five cents if he doesn't post it.

[MixedkNuts]

I for one would be ashamed if I were Dave Feinstein... oh wait, that's not what I meant to say - sometimes things like that just pop out.

To be fair, this fuckup was entirely mine and I take full responsibility for it.  Arend didn't ask for his list to be withheld, I simply went to lunch with the decklists on the floor after having put in a 15 hour day the day before with the intent of typing up the decklists when I came back.  The maid thought they were trash, pitched em, and that was that.  I'm actually more annoyed that I lost the Top 8 Profiles than the decklists, since those are easily recreatable, but bad things very occasionally happen (like... once) in a career that thus far spans four years of traveling to do coverage.

I'm normally as strong an advocate as you can get about freedom of information post-tournaments, having laughed in the face of more than a couple people who asked us to keep decklists secret after SCGs past.  However, Arend did his duty by submitting his decklist and isn't required to do anything beyond that, especially after an idiot like me has a screwup like this. End of story.

--TK

[vroman]

End of story.

not entirely. does that necesarily mean there will be no mtg.com article? and if not, whats taking so long?

[MixedkNuts]

There IS an mtg.com article or I wouldn't have bothered asking for decklists in the first place. It will be up Thursday, and what's taking so long is that both Legacy and Vintage had to be rewritten from coverage into article format and uh... have you SEEN the stuff we've been posting lately?  There's no reason to post it all at one time - we wanted to spread out the goodies a bit and this got trumped by the new Lotus

[ashiXIII]

There IS an mtg.com article or I wouldn't have bothered asking for decklists in the first place. It will be up Thursday, and what's taking so long is that both Legacy and Vintage had to be rewritten from coverage into article format and uh... have you SEEN the stuff we've been posting lately?  There's no reason to post it all at one time - we wanted to spread out the goodies a bit and this got trumped by the new Lotus

I'm glad to hear the Vintage World Champs aren't as important as a mediocre preview card.

[LordHomerCat]

There are infinite people out there much more excited about a "mediocre preview card" than the happenings of a bunch of people who own cards they've never even seen before.  Previews get precedence, for good reason.

[Vegeta2711]

There IS an mtg.com article or I wouldn't have bothered asking for decklists in the first place. It will be up Thursday, and what's taking so long is that both Legacy and Vintage had to be rewritten from coverage into article format and uh... have you SEEN the stuff we've been posting lately?  There's no reason to post it all at one time - we wanted to spread out the goodies a bit and this got trumped by the new Lotus

I'm glad to hear the Vintage World Champs aren't as important as a mediocre preview card.

Get over yourself. The majority of MTG.com is much more intrested in 'fair lotus' than 'Vintage champs, minus a decklist'

[M.Solymossy]

The majority of MTG.com is much more intrested in 'fair lotus' than 'Vintage champs, minus a decklist'

Quoted for Truth.

[CrashTest]

Ted cannot be fully  blamed for losing the deck lists, as that was something that could have happened to anyone. The damage is repairable, as almost everyone posted their list already.

        I want the CS list to be revealed as much as anyone, but I would like to hear from Arend if he still wishes to withhold the list after hearing that people on TMD want it to be released.

            It is possible he does not know about this topic, and will post his list as soon as he hears of it.

             If he still wants to hold his list secret even after knowing about this, then I must say I disagree. But we should give him the chance to speak up, since there may be some miscommunication.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I'm glad to hear the Vintage World Champs aren't as important as a mediocre preview card.

There are like a couple thousand Vintage players out there, out of millions of Magic players.  Damn right we're not as important.


As far as Arend goes, he can decide whether he'd like to be known forever as "the guy who withheld his decklist from Worlds 2006."  Perhaps we can even add "pulling an Arend" to the Vintage lexicon, meaning either "withholding a list" or "being a total douche."

Warning for flaming. You're very close to a ban.

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, enough with the personal attacks. Arend is a good guy, and I still see no evidence that he even knows about this at all.

In fact, I'm going to just close this thread. Arend, if you want, PM me, and I'll reopen it.

[Klep]

Reopened at Arend's request.
-Klep

[Special K]

hey guys why was there never a PM sent to me telling me about this whole decklist thing I would gladly give it out as I heard they were lost and all... I mean a simple PM could saved a whole lot of flaming anyway next time don't put stuff like this in basic user community as I know it exsist but dunno what it does.

// Lands
    3  Island
    4  Polluted Delta
    3  Volcanic Island
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Library of Alexandria
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Flooded Strand
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Wasteland

// Creatures
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Duplicant

// Spells
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    4  Force of Will
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Brainstorm
    2  Night's Whisper
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Impulse
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Time Walk
    1  Demonic Tutor
    2  Misdirection
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mindslaver
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Lotus Pedal

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Duress
SB: 2  Lava Dart
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Razormane Masticore
SB: 1  Solemn Simulacrum
SB: 1  Pyroblast   
SB: 1  Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast


there ya go enjoy.

[ashiXIII]

The majority of MTG.com is much more intrested in 'fair lotus' than 'Vintage champs, minus a decklist'

Quoted for Truth.

My point was more that they hype up the Vintage Champs, go out of their way to have a great prize for first, but in all actuality, they couldn't care less about it. Oh well. I guess I'm just bitter.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Your signature is totally savage; I take back everything I've said about you behind your back.  Even the stuff about your mom.

[The Atog Lord]

I would like to thank Arend for being classy and professional in posting his list. The entire community thanks you, sir.
And I have been quite curious myself.

[Machinus]

I would like to thank Arend for being classy and professional in posting his list. The entire community thanks you, sir.
And I have been quite curious myself.

[Komatteru]

I would like to thank Arend for being classy and professional in posting his list. The entire community thanks you, sir.
And I have been quite curious myself.

[Jacob Orlove]

Warning to Yespuhyren for outrageously fraudulent misrepresentation of Arend.

[CrashTest]

Good to see this came to a good end. I knew that we had to give him a chance to speak up, it was really odd that we had not heard anything, I was sure he'd say something eventually!

         Too bad your deck is janky.  :lol: 

  Just kidding, but definitely some interesting choices though!

[Dxfiler]

I for one would be ashamed if I were Dave Feinstein... oh wait, that's not what I meant to say - sometimes things like that just pop out.

I guess personal attacks are fine if you're Ted Knutson.

I'm not ashamed of my previous post.  It is blatantly obvious that on the whole, wizards doesn't care very much about vintage.  Notice I never said Ted Knutson doesn't care about vintage.  It's evident you care somewhat about vintage.  That's a good thing for the game, since you happen to control what goes on its official web site.

To be fair, this fuckup was entirely mine and I take full responsibility for it.

 

That's also good of you to come right out and admit that.  I personally don't care very much about the decklists being lost, regardless of whose fault it was.  Yes, I mentioned it in my previous post.  Maybe you took that as provocation from me and felt it gave you reason to just blatantly bash me, but I only mentioned it as one in a series of events to back up my previous post regarding Wizards handling of type one.


- Dave Feinstein

Edit: The vintage world championship article that just went up on magicthegathering.com (authored by Ted) was very impressive.  It reinstalls a little bit of my faith in wizards regarding their interest in the format, but in my opinion they still have a long way to go.

[frolll]

First of all, and on topic, I would like to thanks Arend for his decklist and his attitude toward this mere thread.

Then... This list is really what I like to see about Vintage at top level (considering the GenCon being the highest tournament in matter or skill-level of players of the year, or closely). Personnal choices and good metagame calls. Props to you Arend! 


But, the comminity may have a bit over-reacted about the case of the supposed withelded decklist, and about mtg.com. I want to say that the article is pretty great on its own, and, despite the fact it emphazises a bit on Tendrils, this is still an entertaining article wrote nicely and reading smoothly. In the defense of the vintage, this article is really good publicy for us, Vintage players, and we should be proud of being part of this comminity. Remember the tournament for Chang... That's nice.

So, I do see nothing offensive in witholding decklists, even those of Gencon, if that's a personnal choice. No shit about selfishness or being a total douchebag: it's MY deck and I have worked hard on it, so please, be gentlemen yourselves and try to play fair by beating my tech with yours.
This is totally legal and permitted.


Well... I don't want to start something like a mini flamewar, but isn't common to see "secret" techs being published and the, they just disappear... Like the Repeal CS declists... Where are they now? Or the Gifts one? Innovation can came from a well-kept secret. No one should ever be forced to publish a decklist, in my opinion.

[LordHomerCat]

Thanks Arend, that was a very classy thing to do after all the flames.  Congrats on the top4.